Hogan had a baseball swing

[hoganfan924]

I think the matter of whether it is an open or closed system is a matter of definition. If talking about classical mechanics/dynamics (newtonian physics) and I put a boundary around the entire golfer/club including the ground (and gravity) to which he's attached, I can define that as a closed system. All forces applied are internal to that system. I can certainly apply muscular forces within that system which affect clubhead speed. If you couldn't, the club would never do anything but fall straight to the ground!

So are we just aguing symantics here?

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349799683' post='5770865']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349799247' post='5770833']
Do you still maintain that the golf swing is a closed system? Yes or no?
[/quote]

Between the hands and club head, yes it is. A[b]ll the other muscular actions are supported by the counter forces from the ground via legs, but not the forearm action.[/b]

And my question was how you have researched this thing and I continue it asking you to show some numbers of different players to prove it. That you didn't answer.
[/quote]

I see what you're saying now, but it defies Newton's 3rd law of motion, IMO. "For every action 'A', there is a reaction 'B' which is equal in magnitude, opposite in direction and colinear."

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349800136' post='5770911']
I think the matter of whether it is an open or closed system is a matter of definition. If talking about classical mechanics/dynamics (newtonian physics) and I put a boundary around the entire golfer/club including the ground (and gravity) to which he's attached, I can define that as a closed system. All forces applied are internal to that system. I can certainly apply muscular forces within that system which affect clubhead speed. If you couldn't, the club would never do anything but fall straight to the ground!

So are we just aguing symantics here?
[/quote]

I think Drew just took too literally that closed system I mentioned and expanded it to the whole body instead of arms / hands / clubhead relation.

[drewspin]

Tapio,

Have you thought about the force produced by the handle of the club itself?

As the club head releases, the grip end of the club is exerting a force on the hands, is it not?

Of course, muscular force can be exerted by the hands and forearms and it can respond to the counter force exerted by the clubhead, which is effectively pushing the shaft back against the hands from the moment of release onward.

This is a silly argument.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349800610' post='5770969']
Tapio,

Have you thought about the force produced by the handle of the club itself?

As the club head releases, the grip end of the club is exerting a force on the hands, is it not?

Of course, muscular force can be exerted by the hands and forearms and it can respond to the counter force exerted by the clubhead, which is effectively pushing the shaft back against the hands from the moment of release onward.

This is a silly argument.
[/quote]

Show us your measurements and prove something. Until that, I have said what I need to.

[drewspin]

LOL Tapio, nice argument.

You think the club is not producing counter force after it is released that pushes back against the arms / hands?

What force do you think CAUSES the hands to decelerate?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349802196' post='5771085']
LOL Tapio, nice argument.

You think the club is not producing counter force after it is released that pushes back against the arms / hands?

What force do you think CAUSES the hands to decelerate?
[/quote]

It's moment of inertia mainly, but one can also decelerate them by stalling the pivot like some suggests. The point is that the club head speed will still be about the same.

But I'm waiting your answer about research and we continue after that. I'm interested about your findings what is the correlation between hand speed and club head speed, how much it makes difference at what point of the DSW that max hand speed is reached and also what about is the hand speed level that you still can add speed to the club head by using your forearms. And pure facts and measurements, no opinions please.

[drewspin]

LOL - typical of your rhetoric, Tapio. More strawmen.

Demand that I prove something as absolutely basic as the fact that during a golf stroke muscles apply forces across joints causing movement and therefore work (in the physics definition of the word) is done, and force is added during the swing, making the system not a closed system, as you claimed.

If clubhead speed is what you're after, follow Grober and accelerate the downstroke just prior to release while maintaining a negative torque to delay the release, or follow Jorgensen and Miura to move the axis of rotation laterally or vertically, or a combination of the two. Both of those actions involve forces being added during the downswing.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349802196' post='5771085']
LOL Tapio, nice argument.

You think the club is not producing counter force after it is released that pushes back against the arms / hands?

What force do you think CAUSES the hands to decelerate?
[/quote]

As the left wrist uncocks, and the clubhead gets further away from the swing center of rotation, the Moment of Inertia of the clubhead increases (as a squared function of the radius). You could also use COAM as a way to illustrate this but that's not 100% correct, as forces are still being applied by the muscles. A trebuchet is a decent mechanical analog for this effect (arm speed vs. sling speed). In the case of a trebuchet, the counterweight powered by gravity (or torsion bar/spring) would be analagous to the muscles of the golfer. Would be a cool experiment to put a strain gauge or load cell right at the arm to sling attachment to measure those forces (especially for a torsion spring powered one)! Here's an interesting one that's human powered (more analagous to a golfer than gravity powered):
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeHFVoeCC4Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeHFVoeCC4Q[/url]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349804639' post='5771311']
LOL - typical of your rhetoric, Tapio. More strawmen.

Demand that I prove something as absolutely basic as the fact that during a golf stroke muscles apply forces across joints causing movement and therefore work (in the physics definition of the word) is done, and force is added during the swing, making the system not a closed system, as you claimed.

If clubhead speed is what you're after, follow Grober and accelerate the downstroke just prior to release while maintaining a negative torque to delay the release, or follow Jorgensen and Miura to move the axis of rotation laterally or vertically, or a combination of the two. Both of those actions involve forces being added during the downswing.
[/quote]

Still waiting the results of your research and answer to my questions. Instead of that typical rhetoric from you. Just simple answers based on measurements Drew, then we continue to the reasons.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1349742480' post='5767943']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349717914' post='5765921']
He did not - see the video of Hogan below. #3 is the angle between the shaft and the left arm at address. He had high hands at address which reduces #3. Yesterday's tour winner, Ryan Moore, has one of the biggest I've seen. What matters is how much angle there is when it's applied(released or Thrownout as it's called in TGM). In Moore's case it's quite small at impact.
[/quote]

...Ive been reading your posts on multiple sites for years and [b]thought you had this figured out[/b]. Must be on a small cellphone? Or is this a test? lol

PA3 is the angle OF the left arm and club shaft. [b]not the angle BETWEEN.[/b]

[b]If the club is soled[/b] and the golfer has "high hands" then the lead wrist is uncocked more and [b]the PA2 angle is greater[/b] (angle between the left arm and clubshaft=PA2)


[/quote]

Pg 70, 6th edition - "Power Accumulator #3 is formed by the angle established [b]between[/b] the Clubshaft and the Left Forearm."

Pg 69, 6th ed - "When the Left Wrist is Cocked (in excess of the selected Clubshaft-Left Hand Angle[color=#ff0000](#3)[/color] in the address or Fix positions) it forms the Second Power Accumulator[color=#ff0000](#2)[/color]." Where I added the red for clarity. So when the the club is soled, [b]there is no #2[/b] [b]yet[/b].

Technically you're right about the angle, but most TGMers speak of the smaller #3 angle as being "more #3", just as the "smaller" #2 angle provides more uncocking potential toward the inline condition, and therefore providing a greater range of angular movement - the smaller the #2 angle at release, the more uncocking potential, and therefore "more" wristcock.

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349805678' post='5771413']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349804639' post='5771311']
LOL - typical of your rhetoric, Tapio. More strawmen.

Demand that I prove something as absolutely basic as the fact that during a golf stroke muscles apply forces across joints causing movement and therefore work (in the physics definition of the word) is done, and force is added during the swing, making the system not a closed system, as you claimed.

If clubhead speed is what you're after, follow Grober and accelerate the downstroke just prior to release while maintaining a negative torque to delay the release, or follow Jorgensen and Miura to move the axis of rotation laterally or vertically, or a combination of the two. Both of those actions involve forces being added during the downswing.
[/quote]

Still waiting the results of your research and answer to my questions. Instead of that typical rhetoric from you. Just simple answers based on measurements Drew, then we continue to the reasons.
[/quote]

If you that insecure on the value of your 4Dswing measurements, Tapio, publish a peer reviewed article of your findings. Go for it.

I am here, on the other hand, to discuss golf. HF's post above, which states that "[i]You could also use COAM as a way to illustrate this [b]but that's not 100% correct, as forces are still being applied by the muscles[/b][/i]." is the same point I was making above, and this is in fact true.

There are many ways to demonstrate that the downswing of a golf swing is not a closed system, I have mentioned several that you may try... or try just releasing the club into the green screen... that does not require a thesis to demonstrate.

The point is so basic, it needs only a bit of common sense to grasp. When we swing a golf club, we are not double pendulums, nor are we cracking a whip, nor are we hitting a trip wire, nor should we intentionally decelerate in the false belief that such things will maximize clubhead speed. These false ideas, which are all too common in golf, go back to a misperception of the golf swing as a closed system.

Since this is the hogan forum, perhaps we can all agree on the Hogan principle that he wanted thrust through impact past impact and the feeling that the club would be continuing to accelerate after release of the clubhead.

[ray ray]

@ Drew check this link below out , it supports what you're saying and the golfswing is for sure not a closed system.

also the paper by S. Nesbit about work and power in the swing is a good source of reference. since teeace asks for some evidence, of course i haven't seen any from him just anedoctal. the reason some people hit it farther and have more chs is answered in Nesbits scientific paper. something to do with they produce more work... wonder how they do that... lol!



[url="http://vimeo.com/42840983"]http://vimeo.com/42840983[/url]

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349802960' post='5771151']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349802196' post='5771085']
LOL Tapio, nice argument.

You think the club is not producing counter force after it is released that pushes back against the arms / hands?

What force do you think CAUSES the hands to decelerate?
[/quote]

It's moment of inertia mainly, but one can also decelerate them by stalling the pivot like some suggests. The point is that the club head speed will still be about the same.

But I'm waiting your answer about research and we continue after that. I'm interested about your findings what is the correlation between hand speed and club head speed, how much it makes difference at what point of the DSW that max hand speed is reached and also what about is the hand speed level that you still can add speed to the club head by using your forearms. And pure facts and measurements, no opinions please.
[/quote]


that's interesting that you ask for pure facts and measurements, that's a bit hypocrtical isn't it? where are your pure facts and measurements from Hogan that you have to prove your theory about what he did. i mean you said you proved it 100% yet you have no evidence, no measurements from Hogan, do you have his handpath graph?, how about his muscular action data? anything besides subjective blurry pics and videos with all their problems such as parallax and cameras with rolling shutters and hand held cameras etc.

do you have a published paper on this subject of the golfswing as a closed system? can you show us how you determined it is a closed system? any math? anything with substance? or just anedoctal.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349812281' post='5771973']
@ Drew check this link below out , it supports what you're saying and the golfswing is for sure not a closed system.

also the paper by S. Nesbit about work and power in the swing is a good source of reference. since teeace asks for some evidence, of course i haven't seen any from him just anedoctal. the reason some people hit it farther and have more chs is answered in Nesbits scientific paper. something to do with they produce more work... wonder how they do that... lol!



[url="http://vimeo.com/42840983%5D"]http://vimeo.com/42840983][/url]
[/quote]

"page not found"

Could you repost, please?

Thanks,

HF

You either do more work, or you develop a more efficient motion. No other way.

[ray ray]

sorry about that, try this. there's lots of good things at his vimeo channel.

[media=]http://vimeo.com/42840983[/media]

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349806201' post='5771459']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1349742480' post='5767943']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349717914' post='5765921']
He did not - see the video of Hogan below. #3 is the angle between the shaft and the left arm at address. He had high hands at address which reduces #3. Yesterday's tour winner, Ryan Moore, has one of the biggest I've seen. What matters is how much angle there is when it's applied(released or Thrownout as it's called in TGM). In Moore's case it's quite small at impact.
[/quote]

...Ive been reading your posts on multiple sites for years and [b]thought you had this figured out[/b]. Must be on a small cellphone? Or is this a test? lol

PA3 is the angle OF the left arm and club shaft. [b]not the angle BETWEEN.[/b]

[b]If the club is soled[/b] and the golfer has "high hands" then the lead wrist is uncocked more and [b]the PA2 angle is greater[/b] (angle between the left arm and clubshaft=PA2)


[/quote]

Pg 70, 6th edition - "Power Accumulator #3 is formed by the angle established [b]between[/b] the Clubshaft and the Left Forearm."

Pg 69, 6th ed - "When the Left Wrist is Cocked (in excess of the selected Clubshaft-Left Hand Angle[color=#ff0000](#3)[/color] in the address or Fix positions) it forms the Second Power Accumulator[color=#ff0000](#2)[/color]." Where I added the red for clarity. So when the the club is soled, [b]there is no #2[/b] [b]yet[/b].

Technically you're right about the angle, but most TGMers speak of the smaller #3 angle as being "more #3", just as the "smaller" #2 angle provides more uncocking potential toward the inline condition, and therefore providing a greater range of angular movement - the smaller the #2 angle at release, the more uncocking potential, and therefore "more" wristcock.
[/quote]

So we said the same thing but differently lol. Thanks sir.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349806814' post='5771507']


If you that insecure on the value of your 4Dswing measurements, Tapio, publish a peer reviewed article of your findings. Go for it.


[/quote]

Not at all. Just feels funny to read those claims as you don't got any flesh around the bones but voice is still strong.

In fact, everything you got is your feelings and what people has told you. No facts at all.

What I see you want to do is just argue and step over the relevant things and hang on something that has been already elaborated. I have said golf swing is a closed system as we look at the hand and club head relation. Of course I have checked only about 100 players and 400 shots around that specific case, but if the match is about 98% I believe it. Club head speed is 98% dependent of the maximal hand speed reached at the downswing and nothing can be added to that by forearms or wrists. Period.

And Ray Ray... you are funny guy

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349188669' post='5737267']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349187786' post='5737191']
Probably too tough for even the very cool 4D swing machine to separately trace through time the axial rotation of (1) the styloid process of the ulna and (2) the olecranon process of the lead arm... which might be quite revealing....
[/quote]

Yes it is too hard for that and have to be calculated other way when angles are known. . .
[/quote]

Publish your results, Tapio... go for it... Inform the world...

Curious though, if the student is to pronate the face open while holding the right hand under, while using the pivot to rotate the torso open, as you teach, where does the force come from in the "closed system" to do that?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349837762' post='5774203']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349188669' post='5737267']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349187786' post='5737191']
Probably too tough for even the very cool 4D swing machine to separately trace through time the axial rotation of (1) the styloid process of the ulna and (2) the olecranon process of the lead arm... which might be quite revealing....
[/quote]

Yes it is too hard for that and have to be calculated other way when angles are known. . .
[/quote]

Publish your results, Tapio... go for it... Inform the world...

Curious though, if the student is to pronate the face open while holding the right hand under, while using the pivot to rotate the torso open, as you teach, where does the force come from in the "closed system" to do that?
[/quote]

I'm waiting first you to present something. All people here know already that I got those measurements and they are real. I think quite many wants to see something from you to backup your claims.

And sorry, but I felt your question was... how can I say it... not so clever. Bit stupid rather and no worth for answer.

[drewspin]

kinetic linkers had all sorts of measurements too from K-vest ... didn't stop them from confusing correlation with causation, did it?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349839569' post='5774303']
kinetic linkers had all sorts of measurements too from K-vest ... didn't stop them from confusing correlation with causation, did it?
[/quote]

Just show us results of your research and stop twisting the words and escaping. That's totally different thing and no need for high education in physics to understand these. Just to open the eyes and some calculation to see if it's at all possible for human being to help the release by forearm muscles when hands are already moving 18mph

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349813587' post='5772067']
You either do more work, or you develop a more efficient motion. No other way.
[/quote]

Could you expand on this? Is this a quote or just something you believe. The placement of this seemed random but I think I like it. Maybe I'm reading too far into it. Doing more work and developing a more efficient motion don't seem mutually exclusive though, I guess that's why I'm asking about this.

Do more work in terms of have a crap golf swing so it's more difficult to be good? Or alternative is develop a more efficient motion (which is probably even more work initially but easier to maintain and be a quality player)?

[chrisgilly09]

Ya I was gonna mention that Ping but you smartly figured it out, lol.

I like to think of a big #3 as almost theoretical until impact; because its best application can only happen if you have your ducks in a row before. What looks like a 'flip' style release on a TSP or Sq. shoulder plane is very effective on the elbow plane

*TD- Not gonna put words in his mouth, but I'll guess that it means 'work' in the engineering or physics sorta meaning. Just use more energy to create the same output as a more efficient motion. Swing faster in layman's terms...lol

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349840214' post='5774349']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349839569' post='5774303']
kinetic linkers had all sorts of measurements too from K-vest ... didn't stop them from confusing correlation with causation, did it?
[/quote]

Just show us results of your research and stop twisting the words and escaping. That's totally different thing and no need for high education in physics to understand these. Just to open the eyes and some calculation to see if it's at all possible for human being to help the release by forearm muscles when hands are already moving 18mph
[/quote]

Who said anything about "helping release by forearm muscles"? Another strawman from you.

I am responding to your post: "And the other thing [b]H.Kelly forget was that energy at closed system that can only be produced against something.[/b] Independent forearm rotation to speed up the club reduces hand speed and the speed of the whole unit gets lower."

If the system is closed, how does one generate a muscular force to pronate, as you teach? Explain where the force comes from then in this closed system. Do you believe the pronation force comes from the released golf club?

[hoganfan924]

TD,
Work, as in the physics definition of work (force x distance). In reality, it's more power (work/time) that you need to increase to up clubhead speed,. Or you improve efficiency, analogous to a more efficient transmission in you car. Of course, i'm including things like optimizing launch conditions, centerface contact and clubhead speed peaking at impact under the umbrella of efficiency.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349841191' post='5774407']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349840214' post='5774349']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349839569' post='5774303']
kinetic linkers had all sorts of measurements too from K-vest ... didn't stop them from confusing correlation with causation, did it?
[/quote]

Just show us results of your research and stop twisting the words and escaping. That's totally different thing and no need for high education in physics to understand these. Just to open the eyes and some calculation to see if it's at all possible for human being to help the release by forearm muscles when hands are already moving 18mph
[/quote]

Who said anything about "helping release by forearm muscles"? Another strawman from you.

I am responding to your post: "And the other thing [b]H.Kelly forget was that energy at closed system that can only be produced against something.[/b] Independent forearm rotation to speed up the club reduces hand speed and the speed of the whole unit gets lower."

If the system is closed, how does one generate a muscular force to pronate, as you teach? Explain where the force comes from then in this closed system. Do you believe the pronation force comes from the released golf club?
[/quote]

That all happens in inner circle that can use counterforces via legs and from the ground. Inside of the system there cant be force created between levers as I said.

And it's really childish to compare those forces needed for right shoulder external rotation at transition and continuing all the way through and club head acceleration with arms when hands are moving already at 18mph speed.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349812281' post='5771973']
@ Drew check this link below out , it supports what you're saying and the golfswing is for sure not a closed system.

also the paper by S. Nesbit about work and power in the swing is a good source of reference. since teeace asks for some evidence, of course i haven't seen any from him just anedoctal. the reason some people hit it farther and have more chs is answered in Nesbits scientific paper. something to do with they produce more work... wonder how they do that... lol!



[media=]http://vimeo.com/42840983[/media]
[/quote]

BM is showing nicely how PF closes the face at the middle of the DSW.

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349842403' post='5774453']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349841191' post='5774407']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349840214' post='5774349']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349839569' post='5774303']
kinetic linkers had all sorts of measurements too from K-vest ... didn't stop them from confusing correlation with causation, did it?
[/quote]

Just show us results of your research and stop twisting the words and escaping. That's totally different thing and no need for high education in physics to understand these. Just to open the eyes and some calculation to see if it's at all possible for human being to help the release by forearm muscles when hands are already moving 18mph
[/quote]

Who said anything about "helping release by forearm muscles"? Another strawman from you.

I am responding to your post: "And the other thing [b]H.Kelly forget was that energy at closed system that can only be produced against something.[/b] Independent forearm rotation to speed up the club reduces hand speed and the speed of the whole unit gets lower."

If the system is closed, how does one generate a muscular force to pronate, as you teach? Explain where the force comes from then in this closed system. Do you believe the pronation force comes from the released golf club?
[/quote]

That all happens in inner circle that can use counterforces via legs and from the ground. Inside of the system there cant be force created between levers as I said.

And it's really childish to compare those forces needed for right shoulder external rotation at transition and continuing all the way through and club head acceleration with arms when hands are moving already at 18mph speed.
[/quote]

So, pronation is a force generated by legs and the ground? And "inside of the system" there can be no muscular contractions that move bones (i.e., forces created between levers).

Have I got that right as revised and amended, then?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349843919' post='5774529']


So, pronation is a force generated by legs and the ground? And "inside of the system" there can be no muscular contractions that move bones (i.e., forces created between levers).

Have I got that right as revised and amended, then?
[/quote]

Then stop twisting the words and we can continue.