Hogan had a baseball swing

[drewspin]

LOL - I've posted the entire exchange. So, what Tapio-specific definitions do I need to understand?

Let's start by you giving your definition of "inside the system." What is defined by you to be "inside" the system and what's outside?

What do you mean by "force created between levers," if not muscular contractions?

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349843302' post='5774495']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349812281' post='5771973']
@ Drew check this link below out , it supports what you're saying and the golfswing is for sure not a closed system.

also the paper by S. Nesbit about work and power in the swing is a good source of reference. since teeace asks for some evidence, of course i haven't seen any from him just anedoctal. the reason some people hit it farther and have more chs is answered in Nesbits scientific paper. something to do with they produce more work... wonder how they do that... lol!



[media=]http://vimeo.com/42840983[/media]
[/quote]

BM is showing nicely how PF closes the face at the middle of the DSW.
[/quote]



oops for you as it includes axial rotation, not a p.f. only move , it's the rotation/gamma torque that does the opening and closing, the p.f./bowing is a wrist flexion move and is in the beta torque/ in and out of plane, and delofts or adds loft, in other words, it's a combination of moves that Hogan used, the bowing to take loft off and the axial rotation which is a forearm movement to close his open clubface, but not close it to the extreme example you use.


p.f. and d.f. are wrist only movements and have no axial rotations only flexion and extension and for there to be any rotation it is the forearm that supplies it. so Hogan had supination as the forearm axially rotated the club along the long axis of the shaft as shown by B. Manzella.

of course teeace only see's what fits his theory and ignores the rest, he's a funny guy that way.


cheers!

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349843302' post='5774495']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349812281' post='5771973']
@ Drew check this link below out , it supports what you're saying and the golfswing is for sure not a closed system.

also the paper by S. Nesbit about work and power in the swing is a good source of reference. since teeace asks for some evidence, of course i haven't seen any from him just anedoctal. the reason some people hit it farther and have more chs is answered in Nesbits scientific paper. something to do with they produce more work... wonder how they do that... lol!



[/quote]

BM is showing nicely how PF closes the face at the middle of the DSW.
[/quote]





oops for you then since there is axial rotation/supination in that p.f. move and that can only be applied by the forearm not the wrist which can only do flexion /extension r.d. or u.d. so it's a combination of moves and one is a rotation by the forearm which is supination at that point in the swing.

gamma torque, beta torque and alpha torque, you need to learn those. wonder what or who applies those in a closed system...lol!


teeace only sees what fits his theory and ignores everything else. i wonder if Hogan supinated his left forearm right over till the underside of his forearm was exposed, tough way to hit the ball might go right behind you or you could smack your left big toe doing that...lol!


don't think Hogan ever did supination to that ridiculous extreme, otherwise we would have never heard of him.

[TeeAce]

All the forces are produced against the ground as there is no other possibility. There have to be one or more fixed points to create the movement by muscular action. So all in that chain goes from ground up to the club head via arms and hands, as well via trunk and shoulders. All the time you want to use your "outer part" of that chain, the former ("inner") part of the system has to support that and give the resistance to the outer part use. For example keeping your hips rotating and accelerating, there is no way to use your core muscles to speed up the shoulders. It's same in every sport and javelin throw is a good example of that. You have to stop running to be able to fire the next segments. Not as a reaction as been told in kinetic chain theory, but as an action.

 

Lets not get too deep there as it's very complicated and would take hours to explain, but lets go to the hands and arms instead.

 

What measurements has shown is that there is always way to accelerate the later segment against the former one... until we get to the hands and club and even the arms relative to the shoulders it's very small what you can create between those two. Between hands and club head... nothing after certain hand speed is achieved and that's easy to understand just by counting how much energy would be needed to accelerate the club head while keeping hands moving as fast as possible.

 

But there is big group of muscles in the trunk to rotate shoulders against the hips and correlation between shoulder speed (specially right shoulder lateral speed) and hand speed is very obvious and we can see players doing that different ways but all the time good and long hitters create more right shoulder speed than the others. Also there seems to be strong correlation also between those speeds and the club head distance from the center of rotation, which is also clear by laws of physics.

 

As I believed so many years to kinetic chain and wrist action, that was one of the first parts I wanted to research when we builded up the system. And you know... to prove what I had been telling to people during the early years. We made lot of testing with few players who can hit it with different styles and I was all the time searching the results that proves my beliefs. I couldn't find those. I had to admit that I was wrong all those years and face the truth that the hand speed is crucial, nothing else. All the time players who used their wrists to create more club head speed decelerated the handle so much that the whole club speed dropped and they reached just same speed for the club head than when trying to keep the handle moving as fast as possible. So we made more testing with different kind of players and found also one thing, Players with less than 11mph hand speed (level of decent club player and national level women players) could gain something from this forearm action. Not a lot, but at least something. After reaching my level of players with hand speed around the 15mph, those results told us that there was not at all difference how you do it and the maximum hand speed reached at some point of the DSW was the thing that got matter. That told me about closed system, that there was no matter of when, only about how much, but also that creating high hand speed early left the max hand speed lower than when reached later. Anyway the relation between that max hand speed and the club head speed stayed all the time, no matter how the release was done.

 

So I also found one explanation to the wrist angle importance. It was not to use as a power accumulator that stores some energy, but very important to create high hand speed. Sharp angles will keep the club closer to the player and reduce the effect of MOI in that motion and by that help us to gain more hand speed once again.

 

The last found was when I get some help from Sweden and found some players who were able to keep the hand speed higher through the impact than any other guys I measured in Finland. All of them got their hands moving strongly to the left at impact in unison with the body and all those guys had the cross point between the hands and club head very late after the impact in both directions, orientation (from top down) and position (from caddy view) as well the club head and hands lateral orientation crossed later.

 

And for the end... Cover of 5L where we can see the relation of the left thumb and left elbow. The relation between those two is still the same it is in transition, so no forearm rotation relative to the upper arm

 

[TeeAce]

And great words from Miller here

 

[MizunoJoe]

Tee - have you done any research on using the right forearm as a slap hinge to increase hand speed?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349851802' post='5774755']
Tee - have you done any research on using the right forearm as a slap hinge to increase hand speed?
[/quote]

I have but there is one problem. I haven't found players who could keep their right elbow as much in and bent as Hogan and Snead had

But our measurement point of the hands is at the left wrist, not actually in the hand, but even at the forearm side of the wrist. So it tells IMO that also that slap hinge release cant add any speed and that's also in line what I told. So to be really precise, the arm speed (left wrist speed) is the most relevant and everything that happens outside of that last joint has minimum effect.

[ray ray]

not a closed system! proven by Nesbit and Mandrin etc. , drawing proves nothing the axial rotation has already occured and the thumb has nothing to do with the elbow as you can rotate your forearm without moving the elbow as the right hand grip is providing resistance but not so much as to stop the rotation of the forearm and therefore the wrist. hogan had a cupped wrist and a pronated forearm and a radial deviation in the wrist also, there's no way that's the same at impact as in transition the relationship of the thumb and elbow

and using a drawing is not really a good way of proving a point.

gee i sure wouldn't use Miller as an example of what happens in a golfswing, he was a good player but that doesn't mean he really knows what is happening, he's the guy that said Tiger could alter his clubface angle at impact while the ball was on the face during a golf telecast...c'mon that's just not correct and so ridiculous, i mean really?

the golfer can do nothing at that time point of impact...nothing!!!! the bottom 5 to 6in of the shaft and the cluhead and ball are having a collision party and the golfer isn't invited at that very quick party, he's basically decoupled. kind of sexy...lol!

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349854379' post='5774781']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349851802' post='5774755']
Tee - have you done any research on using the right forearm as a slap hinge to increase hand speed?
[/quote]

I have but there is one problem. I haven't found players who could keep their right elbow as much in and bent as Hogan and Snead had

But our measurement point of the hands is at the left wrist, not actually in the hand, but even at the forearm side of the wrist. So it tells IMO that also that slap hinge release cant add any speed and that's also in line what I told. So to be really precise, the arm speed (left wrist speed) is the most relevant and everything that happens outside of that last joint has minimum effect.
[/quote]


what about chs? it's about chs!!! how does it affect chs? the shaft and head is trying to catch up and the wrists can't keep up to that, why?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349854677' post='5774787']
not a closed system! proven by Nesbit and Mandrin etc. , drawing proves nothing the axial rotation has already occured and the thumb has nothing to do with the elbow as you can rotate your forearm without moving the elbow as the right hand grip is providing resistance but not so much as to stop the rotation of the forearm and therefore the wrist. hogan had a cupped wrist and a pronated forearm and a radial deviation in the wrist also, there's no way that's the same at impact as in transition the relationship of the thumb and elbow

and using a drawing is not really a good way of proving a point.

gee i sure wouldn't use Miller as an example of what happens in a golfswing, he was a good player but that doesn't mean he really knows what is happening, he's the guy that said Tiger could alter his clubface angle at impact while the ball was on the face during a golf telecast...c'mon that's just not correct and so ridiculous, i mean really?

the golfer can do nothing at that time point of impact...nothing!!!! the bottom 5 to 6in of the shaft and the cluhead and ball are having a collision party and the golfer isn't invited at that very quick party, he's basically decoupled. kind of sexy...lol!
[/quote]

LOL... supination is just about the thumb and elbow relation and that has remained the same from transition to the impact. The whole arm rotation is different thing and also that can happen many ways or not at all. By talking about elbow rotation you really tell us you dont understand the basics

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349855005' post='5774793']


LOL... supination is just about the thumb and elbow relation and that has remained the same from transition to the impact. The whole arm rotation is different thing and also that can happen many ways or not at all. By talking about elbow rotation you really tell us you dont understand the basics
[/quote]


ah i think you misunderstand, i wasn't talking about elbow rotation...lol!!!, show me where i said elbow rotation? i think i said forearm rotation can occur without affecting the elbow movement, i'm disagreeing that the elbow and thumbs relationship will be the same at impact as it was at transition.

how could it be since Hogan cupped his wrist r.d and d.f. in the b.s.and at transition and at impact it was in u.d. and p.f. and that doesn't even include the pronation and supination...lol!!!

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349855347' post='5774797']



ah i think you misunderstand, i wasn't talking about elbow rotation, show me where i said elbow rotation? i think i said forearm rotation can occur without affecting the elbow movement, i'm disagreeing that the elbow and thumbs relationship will be the same at impact as it was at transition.
[/quote]

But it is. If you lift your arms up from that point and turn your shoulders, you will find it.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349855734' post='5774807']


But it is. If you lift your arms up from that point and turn your shoulders, you will find it.
[/quote]


no you didn't see my edit to my post. i just disagree and will leave it at that in respect to the mods. there's no point in engaging anymore as it's time to move on from this, wouldn't want to be bannished.

[TeeAce]

The supination can be seen from relation between elbow pit and the left thumb all the time during the swing. By that also by watching the shaft and elbow pit relation at the middle of the DSW / BSW. At impact it's more complicated as the shaft angel relative to the forearm is so close to the zero that it cant be measured or seen.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349857698' post='5774829']
The supination can be seen from relation between elbow pit and the left thumb all the time during the swing. By that also by watching the shaft and elbow pit relation at the middle of the DSW / BSW. At impact it's more complicated as the shaft angel relative to the forearm is so close to the zero that it cant be measured or seen.
[/quote]


i disagree, just look at the clubface change from open to less open, it's obvious, the elbow pit doesn't have to change for that to occur, the small amount of axial rotation/supination has almost no effect on the elbow or thumb you won't see it, the movement is almost negligible to the elbow pit or thumb.

only if there is a bigger degree of supination or axial rotation will it become apparent, Hogan didn't do that.



also d. tutleman says bowing/p.f. delofts and cupping/d.f. adds loft, just like i said, your p.f. has a rotation in it, it is not pure p.f.
the wrist cannot rotate the forearm thus it can't open or close the face, it's the opposite the forearm does the rotation/supination/pronation and that opens or closes the face.

supination and pronation are forearm movements and p.f. and d.f. are wrist movements as are r.d. and u.d. Hogan used a combination movement in his swing.
[url="http://www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/doublependulum.php"]http://www.tutelman....blependulum.php[/url]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349863326' post='5774883']



i disagree, just look at the clubface change from open to less open, it's obvious, the elbow pit doesn't have to change for that to occur, the small amount of axial rotation/supination has almost no effect on the elbow or thumb you won't see it, the movement is almost negligible to the elbow pit or thumb.

only if there is a bigger degree of supination or axial rotation will it become apparent, Hogan didn't do that.



also d. tutleman says bowing/p.f. delofts and cupping/d.f. adds loft, just like i said, your p.f. has a rotation in it, it is not pure p.f.
the wrist cannot rotate the forearm thus it can't open or close the face, it's the opposite the forearm does the rotation/supination/pronation and that opens or closes the face.

supination and pronation are forearm movements and p.f. and d.f. are wrist movements as are r.d. and u.d. Hogan used a combination movement in his swing.
[url="http://www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/doublependulum.php"]http://www.tutelman....blependulum.php[/url]
[/quote]


I have to say I cant understand a lot about this mess you produce.

For sure PF delofts the face and DF makes it weaker. That doesn't mean it doesn't do something else also, and it's 100% clear that PF closes the face also and more perpendicular grip one got, more it rotates the shaft and closes the face. I haven't seen anyone who got at least decent understanding of those movements saying something else.

What Hogan called supination in 5L was not that. It was bowing and the anatomical term for that is palmar flexion. Everything, just everything fits to that... also the words you wrote from Tutelman Stronger face, delofted, not closed by rotation was what Hogan described there. FW, you really should borrow 5L somewhere and read those pages.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349841418' post='5774415']
TD,
Work, as in the physics definition of work (force x distance). In reality, it's more power (work/time) that you need to increase to up clubhead speed,. Or you improve efficiency, analogous to a more efficient transmission in you car. Of course, i'm including things like optimizing launch conditions, centerface contact and clubhead speed peaking at impact under the umbrella of efficiency.
[/quote]

Thank you.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349854677' post='5774787']

gee [b]i sure wouldn't use Miller as an example of what happens in a golfswing[/b], he was a good player but that doesn't mean he really knows what is happening, he's the guy that said Tiger could alter his clubface angle at impact while the ball was on the face during a golf telecast...c'mon that's just not correct and so ridiculous, i mean really?

[/quote]

Miller may not know the physics of the impact interval, but he right on about accelerating the [b]whole club[/b], not just the heavy end of it, in order to maximize club head speed!

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349872223' post='5775081']



I have to say I cant understand a lot about this mess you produce.

For sure PF delofts the face and DF makes it weaker. That doesn't mean it doesn't do something else also, and it's 100% clear that PF closes the face also and more perpendicular grip one got, more it rotates the shaft and closes the face. I haven't seen anyone who got at least decent understanding of those movements saying something else.

What Hogan called supination in 5L was not that. It was bowing and the anatomical term for that is palmar flexion. Everything, just everything fits to that... also the words you wrote from Tutelman Stronger face, delofted, not closed by rotation was what Hogan described there. FW, you really should borrow 5L somewhere and read those pages.
[/quote]


you just don't want to understand because it proves your theory is incorrect, in other words you have an agenda while i don't. i told you multiple times your p.f. move is actually a combination move of the wrist and forearm and the wrist cannot rotate the forearm no matter how much you wish it could.... so that's where the rotation comes from and that my friend is supination. which you deny happens in Hogan's swing and i disagree.

pure p.f. alone cannot axially rotate the shaft along it's long axis since it is a flexion of the wrist with no rotation, only the forearm can make the wrist rotate, not the other way around as you seem to think. what muscles in the wrist can make the forearm rotate??? your p.f. move is not just flexion alone, there is forearm involvement.

and on top of everything else there is the pronation of Hogan's left forearm in the b.s. plus he had r.d. and d.f. of the wrist, it's a combination of moves involving the forearm and wrist both in the b.s. and d.s.


you just don't want to see it because like i said you have a horse in the race.... sorry you are just plain wrong about many things, and the golfswing is not a closed system. also you're wrong about who i am. basically you're wrong about a lot of things..... sorry it's just the truth...lol!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349854379' post='5774781']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349851802' post='5774755']
Tee - have you done any research on using the right forearm as a slap hinge to increase hand speed?
[/quote]

I have but there is one problem. I haven't found players who could keep their right elbow as much in and bent as Hogan and Snead had

But our measurement point of the hands is at the left wrist, not actually in the hand, but even at the forearm side of the wrist. So it tells IMO that also that slap hinge release cant add any speed and that's also in line what I told. So to be really precise, the arm speed (left wrist speed) is the most relevant and everything that happens outside of that last joint has minimum effect.
[/quote]

My own experience is that I can get my best handspeed when actually doing what Hogan advised in 5L - making a pitch elbow sidearm/underhand throw down to and through impact. Mechanically, this is just using the right forearm as a slap hinge utilizing the forearm muscles to add speed to the forearm lever.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349892505' post='5776765']


pure p.f. alone cannot axially rotate the shaft along it's long axis since it is a flexion of the wrist with no rotation, only the forearm can make the wrist rotate, not the other way around as you seem to think. what muscles in the wrist can make the forearm rotate??? your p.f. move is not just flexion alone, there is forearm involvement.


[/quote]

What you say is 100% wrong.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349849744' post='5774719']
[b]All the forces are produced against the ground as there is no other possibility.[/b]

[/quote]

Not correct. You can certainly swing a golf club while floating in space for example and forces internal to the body result. Some people are virtually airborne at impact. The countertorque/force against the acceleration of the club will be provided by the inertial mass of the body in this case. This is in part what causes the pivot to slow down as the club speeds up in many swings.

[ray ray]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349891589' post='5776675']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349854677' post='5774787']
gee [b]i sure wouldn't use Miller as an example of what happens in a golfswing[/b], he was a good player but that doesn't mean he really knows what is happening, he's the guy that said Tiger could alter his clubface angle at impact while the ball was on the face during a golf telecast...c'mon that's just not correct and so ridiculous, i mean really?

[/quote]

Miller may not know the physics of the impact interval, but he right on about accelerating the [b]whole club[/b], not just the heavy end of it, in order to maximize club head speed!
[/quote]


i disagree. Miller has almost no knowledge of the physics involved. you forget about the shaft and what it is doing, you cannot accelrate the whole club as if it were a solid piece of inflexible material. the ch via the shaft is trying to catch up to and pass the hands at a certain point and the shaft is like a snake bending and flexing and at impact only the bottom 5 to 6in. of the shaft and the clubhead are involved with the collision with the ball, the other part of the shaft and the golfer at this point are basically de-coupled from that. the hands decelerate as the ch accelerates, eventually!

so if that idea of accelerating the whole club as a rigid unflexing rod makes you hit it better keep on doing it, but Miller has no clue about the physics, he can play great golf and maybe teach , but that's a different thing.

[TeeAce]

Ray Ray, you said pure PF can never rotate the shaft. Are you serious about that?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55yD7q9b4J0[/media]

Here you got first pure supination and it doesn't rotate the shaft, then pure PF and the shaft rotates 90 degrees.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349893199' post='5776853']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349892505' post='5776765']
pure p.f. alone cannot axially rotate the shaft along it's long axis since it is a flexion of the wrist with no rotation, only the forearm can make the wrist rotate, not the other way around as you seem to think. what muscles in the wrist can make the forearm rotate??? your p.f. move is not just flexion alone, there is forearm involvement.


[/quote]

What you say is 100% wrong.
[/quote]


no it's not, show me what muscles in the wrist which can rotate the forearm? i would love to see that!!! you just can't accept that you are incorrect and that destroys your theory about supination in Hogan's swing. your p.f. move is not a wrist only motion it has rotation in it which you admitted and only the forearm can rotate the wrist, the wrist cannot rotate the forearm.


i would love to see by what anatomical process the wrist rotates the forearm, show me the muscles in the wrist that do that.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349892505' post='5776765']

you just don't want to see it because like i said [b]you have a horse in the race[/b].... sorry you are just plain wrong about many things, and the golfswing is not a closed system. also [b]you're wrong about who i am[/b]. basically you're wrong about a lot of things..... sorry it's just the truth...lol!
[/quote]

He's one of "Italian Stallion" stable boys!

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349893422' post='5776883']
Ray Ray, you said pure PF can never rotate the shaft. Are you serious about that?


Here you got first pure supination and it doesn't rotate the shaft, then pure PF and the shaft rotates 90 degrees.
[/quote]


lol!!! that is not pure p.f. oh and do that with your wrist cupped like Hogan. and take that position you show down to impact without any forearm rotation and you will see it delofts the clubface

[ray ray]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349893776' post='5776915']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349892505' post='5776765']
you just don't want to see it because like i said [b]you have a horse in the race[/b].... sorry you are just plain wrong about many things, and the golfswing is not a closed system. also [b]you're wrong about who i am[/b]. basically you're wrong about a lot of things..... sorry it's just the truth...lol!
[/quote]

He's one of "Italian Stallion" stable boys!
[/quote]


don't think so, that's all old b.s. from the tgm war with manzella, i got nothing to do with that at all. i didn't know manzella was the father of physics...lol!!! maybe miller is...rofl.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349893422' post='5776883']
Ray Ray, you said pure PF can never rotate the shaft. Are you serious about that?


Here you got first pure supination and it doesn't rotate the shaft, then pure PF and the shaft rotates 90 degrees.
[/quote]


is that what Hogan did in his swing nothing else no r.d. no d.f. no pronation nothing else, useless demo.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349893422' post='5776883']
Ray Ray, you said pure PF can never rotate the shaft. Are you serious about that?


Here you got first pure supination and it doesn't rotate the shaft, then pure PF and the shaft rotates 90 degrees.
[/quote]


another problem you have is that will not be the clubs orientation nearing impact, and that will change everything , plus that isn't axial rotation along the shafts long axis which is gamma torque which is supination, you have it all mixed up, because you don't understand the club changes it's orientation in the swing.

i can't help you anymore till you show me what muscles in the wrist can rotate the forearm. Hogan used a combination move using both his wrist and forearm just like he said, be bowed and supinated.