Hogan had a baseball swing

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1350317309' post='5796079']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1350317078' post='5796055']
LOL - roll up your sleeves... must be cold there already ... how can we see your forearm bones rotate CCW around their axis as you PF at a downward angle WITHOUT moving the thumb with your long sleeve shirt.

You are showing nothing to rebut my point in that wacky video.
[/quote]

You only need to see the thumb and those two totally different actions. One is real supination, the other is PF. You just should learn to understand those.
[/quote]

Now you have added a new modifier "real supination" which I presume is defined to describe some INTENT to move the thumb toward the camera in your video. I am talking about anatomical supination, which does not depend on intent, but is simply a directional movement of the forearm bones.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1350317513' post='5796089']


The lateral move is an input of power/work that shows the system isn't closed. It is an exception to the closed system double pendulum model and illustrates the point that the system in real life is NOT closed. The closed system model didn't fit well without that addition, which only serves to illustrate my point. How does total work increase through the downstroke through impact if work can't be added (which is the very definition of a closed system)... not the Tapio definition.

You have your own lexicon, which is quite confusing.
[/quote]

And still... this is getting funny... or even ridiculous. The total work increases against the ground, not inside of the body. You cant add anything between the joints like straightening the arm, because counterforce is pushing the shoulder back with same force. By that the result is zero. That's why so many good pall strikers comes through impact with bent right arm and without loosing any power.

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1350317523' post='5796091']


I really cant believe this has to be explained still.... maybe better give up and let those understand it who has already done. You can go out and push that car without adding force against the ground... just straighten your arm and see if it moves. Or you can start to understand that everything happens against the fixed point and there isn't one in teh human body.
[/quote]

How hard is it to say what the boundary of "the system" is in your view?

Apparently you are saying it is somewhere between the arms and legs. Where is the boundary within which no more work is being added during the swing?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1350317748' post='5796107']


Now you have added a new modifier "real supination" which I presume is defined to describe some INTENT to move the thumb toward the camera in your video. I am talking about anatomical supination, which does not depend on intent, but is simply a directional movement of the forearm bones.
[/quote]

No. there was just two different movements. PF and supination and their results. Tension moves the forearm also to the direction that it can seem to rotate, but it's not. It just moves forward and because of angle it seems to rotate.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Zipper' timestamp='1350317648' post='5796103']
What a great video , I mean dude that really explained it all to me . Guys it's just wonderful how we are blessed to have a great great intellect with superior skills than us to pass on this abundance of knowledge . Tapio is simply the greatest and we should all thank him for spending his to educating us on all things science , medical , biomechanics and to boot h has a super golf swing that looks just like hogan would have if he had a scapula issue . It's clear as day guys , he solved the hogan mystery
[/quote]

Zipper, I dont really know a lot but have learned some things. It might feel I know a lot of the other sides understanding is very low, but in reality those are only basic things.

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1350317857' post='5796119']


And still... this is getting funny... or even ridiculous. The total work increases against the ground, not inside of the body. You cant add anything between the joints like straightening the arm, because counterforce is pushing the shoulder back with same force. By that the result is zero. That's why so many good pall strikers comes through impact with bent right arm and without loosing any power.
[/quote]

Work within the body is done across joints, not all of which translate to ground forces.
See Fig. 7.

[url="http://www.jssm.org/vol4/n4/18/v4n4-18pdf.pdf"]http://www.jssm.org/.../v4n4-18pdf.pdf[/url]

[TeeAce]

The most funny thing in that whole supination/PF debate is that the original case is forgotten and some people try to prove that there was also bit of supination because the bones of the forearm are changing their relation few degrees

How can it be so difficult to read that 5L and go through everything Hogan said his "supination" movement produces. All those things fits perfectly to the bowing (PF) and none of them to forearm rotation (supination)

Hogan wanted the face come stronger by bowing the left wrist, not closing the face by rotating it around the shaft. Maybe some day that is understood and people can start to think how he made that without hooking. That's the real case.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1350319260' post='5796185']


Work within the body is done across joints, not all of which translate to ground forces.
See Fig. 7.

[url="http://www.jssm.org/vol4/n4/18/v4n4-18pdf.pdf"]http://www.jssm.org/.../v4n4-18pdf.pdf[/url]
[/quote]

LOL.. for sure... without fixed point... yep yep...

Sorry Drew, you have understood it completely wrong.

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1350318749' post='5796159']


No. there was just two different movements. PF and supination and their results. Tension moves the forearm also to the direction that it can seem to rotate, but it's not.[b] It just moves forward and because of angle it seems to rotate.[/b]
[/quote]

Now you are really being disingenuous. To what end, I don't know.

It is quite obvious for anyone who wants to demonstrate it to themselves that the ROM in the wrist will allow the forearm bones to supinate without moving the thumb in the demonstration I suggested.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1350319260' post='5796185']

Work within the body is done across joints, not all of which translate to ground forces.
See Fig. 7.

[url="http://www.jssm.org/vol4/n4/18/v4n4-18pdf.pdf"]http://www.jssm.org/.../v4n4-18pdf.pdf[/url]
[/quote]

Absolutely, which is one reason why you could still swing a club while standing on ice or floating in space. Albeit with much less speed. Can't forget about the inertia of the body proper providing the counterforce.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1350319617' post='5796219']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1350318749' post='5796159']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1350317748' post='5796107']


Now you have added a new modifier "real supination" which I presume is defined to describe some INTENT to move the thumb toward the camera in your video. I am talking about anatomical supination, which does not depend on intent, but is simply a directional movement of the forearm bones.
[/quote]

No. there was just two different movements. PF and supination and their results. Tension moves the forearm also to the direction that it can seem to rotate, but it's not.[b] It just moves forward and because of angle it seems to rotate.[/b]
[/quote]

Now you are really being disingenuous. To what end, I don't know.

It is quite obvious for anyone who wants to demonstrate it to themselves that the ROM in the wrist will allow the forearm bones to supinate without moving the thumb in the demonstration I suggested.
[/quote]

You really should test it yourself. And test is in neutral and UD position so you can (maybe) understand the difference. The ulna and radial don't really move around them even it looks like that. Radius is just pushed forward.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1350320094' post='5796259']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1350319260' post='5796185']
Work within the body is done across joints, not all of which translate to ground forces.
See Fig. 7.

[url="http://www.jssm.org/vol4/n4/18/v4n4-18pdf.pdf"]http://www.jssm.org/.../v4n4-18pdf.pdf[/url]
[/quote]

Absolutely, which is one reason why you could still swing a club while standing on ice or floating in space. Albeit with much less speed. Can't forget about the inertia of the body proper providing the counterforce.
[/quote]

That's why I have said many times "after certain level is reached"

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1350320140' post='5796261']
You really should test it yourself. And test is in neutral and UD position so you can (maybe) understand the difference. The ulna and radial don't really move around them even it looks like that. Radius is just pushed forward.
[/quote]

Hmmmmm, I wonder if in the locker room or hotel room or range or 1st tee box if Hogan, Snead, Player, Arnie, Jack, Peete, Barber, and Knudson ever discussed their ulna.

[IH82BOGEY]

Kelvin explained the supination inherent in your earlier video, very visible except to the willfully blind.

 

Do you see what happens to the face here? You think it opens uo, Tapio?

 

Do you see what happens to the left wrist there. Instead of arm rotation (more than it rotates by left shoulder movement) that wrist goes from cupped to bowed = from DF to PF and that closes the face as that move is rotating the shaft with that angle. With supination that left thumb would turn toward the camera and now it doesn't.

 

 

Taking a break from the ongoing supination froth. To my eye, this move by Mr. Hogan screams of muscular effort in the arms and hands. Often I have seen people use their hands and arms too much which I believe adds to a pivot stall (something to work against or blast off from). What is the opinion on the forces used here in this move? Is there a way to get palmer flexion as a reactionary force? Isnt Mr. Hogan trying to palmer flex here?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='IH82BOGEY' timestamp='1350325863' post='5796837']


Taking a break from the ongoing supination froth. To my eye, this move by Mr. Hogan screams of muscular effort in the arms and hands. Often I have seen people use their hands and arms too much which I believe adds to a pivot stall (something to work against or blast off from). What is the opinion on the forces used here in this move? Is there a way to get palmer flexion as a reactionary force? Isnt Mr. Hogan trying to palmer flex here?
[/quote]

I think it's a move that needs quite much muscular action and strength because there is lot of other forces to resist.

Hogans hand and arm action was quite unique and complicated. Can be learned as a motion, but in full speed.... tough. And people who try it hit it so badly left that they leave that right away thinking they are doing something wrong. And the truth is that they are doing that part well but missing some others.

[ray ray]

Kelvin explained the supination inherent in your earlier video, very visible except to the willfully blind.

 

Do you see what happens to the face here? You think it opens uo, Tapio?

 

Do you see what happens to the left wrist there. Instead of arm rotation (more than it rotates by left shoulder movement) that wrist goes from cupped to bowed = from DF to PF and that closes the face as that move is rotating the shaft with that angle. With supination that left thumb would turn toward the camera and now it doesn't.

 

 

 

first off you can't see the thumb, second just look at the clubface. if that is turning more closed you can bet the shaft is rotating and since the left hand is turning as can be seen by the knuckles rotating more to the ground then the wrist is rotating and the forearm is responsible for that and therefore that thumb is also moving toward the camera as is the right thumb, it's just another goofy claim that isn't based in reality.

 

take away the right hand and you will clearly see the left thumb move it has to ,as all the other things i pointed out are moving in concert with the p.f. combo move.

 

 

when you have an agenda to promote a certain theory that you claimed is 100% proven and you produce nothing but 2d blurry pics and gif's and video and just your say so and you think you can fool people with it, you're only in denial and you eventually put on blinders to everything else.

 

never let the truth get in the way of a good story/theory...lol!

[ray ray]

@ zipper just to add some more info about circumduction.




Main Reference Sections:
Health Glossary (Index)
Human Body (Index)
Medical Textbooks






Circumduction
Circumduction is sometimes described as simply a "circular movement"
because circumduction movements of (e.g. the arm and hand) result in the outer edge of the limb (e.g. the finger tips) tracing circles in space. Another way to express this is to say that circumduction is the movement of the distal end of a body part so that it traces a circle.
However, circumduction is more accurately described as a conical movement at a joint due to the cone formed by the rotating limb (i.e. the distal end of the limb traces a circle while the movement of the length of the limb traces a cone shape).
Short definition of Circumduction:
Circumduction is a conical movement of a limb extending from the joint (e.g. shoulder or hip) at which the movement is controlled. True circumduction allows for 360 degrees of movement.



Examples of Circumduction:
Circumduction of an arm (from the shoulder joint):
Hold an arm extended outwards from the body e.g. the right hand extended to the right side. Circumduction is the movement that occurs when the arm is held straight at the elbow joint while whole limb from the shoulder to the finger tips is moved as if to draw circles with the hand/fingers at arms length from the centre of the body.

Circumduction of a leg (from the hip joint):
Holding one leg straight at the knee joint rotate that straight leg from the hip so that the extreme end of the leg (e.g. the great toe if the foot is pointed outwards) traces a circle as it moves around in space.


Other similar movements:
Some other joints including some of the condyloid joints at the wrist and the base of the fingers are sometimes said to be able to produce a circumduction movement. [color=#FF0000]However, the apparent rotation at these joints is really - that is, more accurately, a combination of flexion and extension, abduction, and adduction movements. Only the ball-and-socket joints at the shoulder and hip execute true 360 degree circumduction movements.[/color]
This is the Joint Movements section about the types of movements between bones at joints in the bod

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Hmmmmm, I wonder how many times Hogan used the word "Circumduction" while he was on the Augusta driving range hitting 2-iron ropes.

[ray ray]

i doubt Hogan ever used the term. but then again no one is arguing that he did use it, but he did use the term supination...lol! just maybe not while he was hitting 2 irons anywhere. your point is pointless no one is suggesting Hogan used or thought about most of the things in these forums and especially the word circumduction... maybe circumcision...lol!...geez!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1350342530' post='5798557']
i doubt Hogan ever used the term. but then again no one is arguing that he did use it, but he did use the term supination...lol! just maybe not while he was hitting 2 irons anywhere. your point is pointless no one is suggesting Hogan used or thought about most of the things in these forums and especially the word circumduction... maybe circumcision...lol!...geez!
[/quote]

Lol, I don't know about any if those terms you guys argue about. Just trying to lighten the mood around here. I don't know how to learn my golf swing using words. But I'm makin good slow progress learning through watching and observation.

[MrParr1Noid]

You guys continue to stack quote till most of this thread is unreadable for the "other" guy. Remember, we have members who enjoy reading GolfWRX's artlcles. Don't make it so difficult for our readers.

Please be mindful of the other guy.

Thank You

[dairic]

[quote name='MrParr1Noid' timestamp='1350344761' post='5798785']
You guys continue to [b]stack quote[/b] till most of this thread is unreadable for the "other" guy. Remember, we have members who enjoy reading GolfWRX's artlcles. Don't make it so difficult for our readers.

Please be mindful of the other guy.

Thank You
[/quote]

It's a Stack and Tilt thing. Ever since it's come out some people have been "stacking" everything under the sun including quotes to deliver a more solid "impact". It's a disease.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1350332972' post='5797637']

first off you can't see the thumb, second just look at the clubface. if that is turning more closed you can bet the shaft is rotating and since the left hand is turning as can be seen[b] by the knuckles rotating more to the ground[/b] then the wrist is rotating and the forearm is responsible for that and therefore that thumb is also moving toward the camera as is the right thumb, it's just another goofy claim that isn't based in reality.


[/quote]

Are you kidding Ray?? Really?

I tell you a secret, but don't tell anyone... shhh... promise?



Knuckles rotating toward the ground at that arm orientation is PF, not supination. At that point supination would turn them toward the target, not down.

But now we finally know you haven't understood supination yet, so you don't also understand why PF closes the face. I just wonder how this can be so hard to understand when we are really talking about basic movements and not the complicated ones.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1350333158' post='5797657']



Other similar movements:
Some other joints including some of the condyloid joints at the wrist and the base of the fingers are sometimes said to be able to produce a circumduction movement. [color=#FF0000]However, the apparent rotation at these joints is really - that is, more accurately, a combination of flexion and extension, abduction, and adduction movements. Only the ball-and-socket joints at the shoulder and hip execute true 360 degree circumduction movements.[/color]
This is the Joint Movements section about the types of movements between bones at joints in the bod
[/quote]

Just right.. in reality it's combination of PF and abduction, not a word about supination there.

You know Ray, not one professional of anatomy would use word supination with wrist.

[doram101]

Here is an elite professional who is head professor at British osteopath . Bernard Kingston , who is published an includes supination pronation which occurs at the distal radio ulnar joint in the wrist movements chapter
There is more , who also use the terms above and include it in wrist movements section , just how it is

[doram101]

The glaring problem with this hogan wanted PF instead of supination is that he described he motion as being from impact to swivel region , quite a few feet past impact . If hogan really wanted PF as being his descrition , he sure did a terrible job of doing it , since there are many many pictures swings showing a bent left wrist not far past impact

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Zipper' timestamp='1350364553' post='5800249']
Here is an elite professional who is head professor at British osteopath . Bernard Kingston , who is published an includes supination pronation which occurs at the distal radio ulnar joint in the wrist movements chapter
There is more , who also use the terms above and include it in wrist movements section , just how it is
[/quote]

So? Of course they can be included to the wrist movement chapter because the wrist is affected also by supination. As well as abduction is not at all wrist movement term, it affects to the wrist also, but not one professional would say that the wrist is abducting.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Zipper' timestamp='1350365137' post='5800257']
The glaring problem with this hogan wanted PF instead of supination is that he described he motion as being from impact to swivel region , quite a few feet past impact . If hogan really wanted PF as being his descrition , he sure did a terrible job of doing it , since there are many many pictures swings showing a bent left wrist not far past impact
[/quote]

Nope... you really should read 5L carefully. And for the second thing understand inertia... the fight of good and bad... action and reaction... forces and counter forces.... quite a mess but not that difficult. Few feet past the impact is just the place where whole population around the golf was totally mislead before hi-speed cameras

[doram101]

I read 5 lessons long time ago and to me he was emphasizing not to do what hackers do , which is have the pronation and DF combination . Imop I don't think hogan was into heavy PF and de lofting the face on all full swings , maybe on some specialty shots or when the sod catches the head you will see it . Certainly you won't find the club shaft past the left arm before impact . Perhaps you could explain to us all why in your own swing it happens the opposite of what hogan wanted

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Zipper' timestamp='1350366626' post='5800297']
I read 5 lessons long time ago and to me he was emphasizing not to do what hackers do , which is have the pronation and DF combination . Imop I don't think hogan was into heavy PF and de lofting the face on all full swings , maybe on some specialty shots or when the sod catches the head you will see it . Certainly you won't find the club shaft past the left arm before impact . Perhaps you could explain to us all why in your own swing it happens the opposite of what hogan wanted
[/quote]

Why the heck should we talk about my swing here? Or do you want also tell me if I should have my right shoulder operated or not, as the doctors are not really sure about that?

Zipper, that's really childish action that always pops out by some guys. Read those 5 pages of 5L and talk about Hogans moves, not about old fat guys swing.