Hogan had a baseball swing

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1349279026' post='5744203']
Funny Doram101 logged out and SVS logged in post then logged out and Doram101 is back on. So stupid. Where is HG101? Can he come out to play?
[/quote]

I really wonder why moderators let this continue like this. Friends maybe?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1349279694' post='5744279']

No. My point is he's the one who got personal first. [b]Back then called people respectfully disagreeing with him as idiotics[/b]. Recently we were discussing nicely and he condescended on me. So these are just vapor trails. This Tapio guy needs someone who will stand up to his face.
[/quote]

Stop telling lies about me. I have said some claims idiotic claims as well I have said I have done idiotic things.

Idiotic claims are when someone is telling us black is white as everyone can see it's not. And it all started because I told that Hogan used wrong term in 5L when he showed bowing and called it supination and it's really not at all supination (forearm rotation)

[dpb5031]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1349279694' post='5744279']


No. My point is he's the one who got personal first. Back then called people respectfully disagreeing with him as idiotics. Recently we were discussing nicely and he condescended on me. So these are just vapor trails. This Tapio guy needs someone who will stand up to his face.
[/quote]

Ok, fair enough...perhaps I haven't seen those previous threads. Most of us are not caught up in the personal stuff though, and likely don't have knowledge of the previous disagreements and insults. Carrying these petty arguments over into each new Hogan thread is disruptive to the discussion. I just wish all parties would just keep it civil and less personal.

[MrParr1Noid]

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[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349261373' post='5742769']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349252248' post='5742597']
3:07 mark Kelvin doesn't quite agree with teeace.


[media=]http://youtu.be/UfOQxr9HKWA[/media]
[/quote]

And still talks about UD....

I have been asking few times how those things were measured, but no one seems to know exactly. And yes, I know how it's done and also why it can mislead us.
[/quote]




yeah i guess tpi doesn't know how they did their measurements...geeez! there's supination in the swing get over it, it has been measured and prof S. Nesbit, the physics prof who did the study in 3d and wrote and published for peer review those handpath and work and power studies in the golfswing has confirmed that there is a gamma torque/supination in the lead wrist.


You ignore anything that doesn't fit your agenda and use 2d pics as evidence like these pics are untouchable and indisputeable proof. in the end all you have like everyone here is your opinion but you act like you are the final say on everything and everyone else is wrong.

that's why people like me get motivated to say wait a second where's your evidence besides some pics that are fraught with problems from rolling shutters and parallax and bad angles etc. if you state it's just your opinion no one has an issue with that but you come off like it's all proven fact and trust me it isn't.

and i'm not hg or anyone else mentioned here, also i'm not a troll , i asked some legit questions earlier and tapio just couldn't come up with the goods.

if you want to put it out there you better be prepared to answer the tough questions, that's the way it is, otherwise why have a debate, lets all just agree and be done.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349288572' post='5745451']


that's why people like me get motivated to say wait a second where's your evidence besides some pics that are fraught with problems from rolling shutters and parallax and bad angles etc. if you state it's just your opinion no one has an issue with that but you come off like it's all proven fact and trust me it isn't.


[/quote]

From still pics it's so easy to see the orientation between forearm and upper arm, as well it can be seen thumb relation to the elbow. You only need to learn how to look. As well you should learn to understand how bowing action pushes wristbone toward the target at impact and changing the relation of the lower forearm and elbow.

And I totally agree that pros got usually supination, some of them like Ricky Fowler has lot of it.... huge supination... because he needs that. Then there is guys who rotate the whole system around them and don't need to supinate. When they learn to do it strongly enough, supination is the last thing they want to happen and they have to do the opposite to prevent the face closing too much... and it still does sometimes if they are not strong enough.

But I would be very happy if you explain me how they have been measuring that supination component so I can do some comparing. Thanks.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1349210565' post='5739707']
Hgfan
The left shoulder move.... That is what I mentioned 100 times in that other thread about steep/level
The farther & later you move the left shoulder away from the ball the more power source you are sustaining and keeping some kind of acceleration in the motion.
So long as the feet are providing sufficient resistance to make the most of this 'rocket launch'...Then arms /hands around then go up more vertically to finish - pressure stays on the shaft longer. More feel and pressure stays in the hands. Structure is held intact
Better shots- longer shots if desired- more distance control
[/quote]

I wonder if this has something to do with why I've put up some ridiculously high smash factors in my two recent Trackman sessions? 1.52 with a driver. 1.41 with my 6 iron and 1.45 with an Epon 6 iron. Numbers that some say are "impossible."

[ray ray]

i don't work for tpi and do not have that info. and i'm sure it's not available , like any company they keep those things close to the vest. i'm also sure they know how they did it and that's what i said in my post. you think 4dswing is going to tell us all their trade secrets? i doubt it.

anyways that's not the main point of my post. the main point is we all have opinions here on these forums and none of them are proven facts unless you have published a paper for scientific review and no one could prove you wrong otherwise it's all just opinion that would include you in that group of people with just opinions.

you made a statement about Kelvin M. and Jeff Martin and i said that wasn't true and i provided the proof. i had the goods and you just had your opinion and i showed your opinion was false. that's called backing up what you say.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1349212987' post='5739927']
HF, follow up question about the retration move - were you doing this while maintaining left shoulder internal rotation? or were you letting it externally rotate into impact (like I think TeeAce is describing).

TeeAce, as far as I can tell Kelvin still thinks left shoulder should stay in internal rotation as long as possible into impact. Do you guys disagree on this or did he change his mind? Just trying to understand theories better.
[/quote]

Sorry TD, hadn't noticed this post earlier.

Didn't think about that stuff when experimenting with it on the range. I try to keep my own changes/images as simple as possible. Don't want to develop paralysis by analysis in my own motion. But in thinking about it further, I don't think it would be possible to do that and maintain internal rotation (without a big chicken wing). I've played around with internal and external rotation pre-set at address and then just let it do what it does naturally in the downswing but I've found that doing what Hogan said in 5L (external rotation) inside pockets of elbows pointed up, bony elbow process pointed at hip joints works best.

To my original point about this though, a lot of other things need to be in place before you can put this to work. Without the right combination of shaft flattening, some lag and right side lateral bend, trying to do this will just yank the plane line way left. So for the average guy, this "move" would make bad a lot worse, IMO.

[ej002]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349290180' post='5745561']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1349212987' post='5739927']
HF, follow up question about the retration move - were you doing this while maintaining left shoulder internal rotation? or were you letting it externally rotate into impact (like I think TeeAce is describing).

TeeAce, as far as I can tell Kelvin still thinks left shoulder should stay in internal rotation as long as possible into impact. Do you guys disagree on this or did he change his mind? Just trying to understand theories better.
[/quote]

Sorry TD, hadn't noticed this poster earlier.

Didn't think about that stuff when experimenting with it on the range. I try to keep my own changes/images as simple as possible. Don't want to develop paralysis by analysis in my own motion. But in thinking about it further, I don't think it would be possible to do that and maintain internal rotation (without a big chicken wing). I've played around with internal and external rotation pre-set at address and then just let it do what it does naturally in the downswing but I've found that doing what Hogan said in 5L (external rotation) inside pockets of elbows pointed up, bony elbow process pointed at hip joints works best.

To my original point about this though, a lot of other things need to be in place before you can put this to work. Without the right combination of shaft flattening, some lag and right side lateral bend, trying to do this will just yank the plane line way left. So for the average guy, this "move" would make bad a lot worse, IMO.
[/quote]

Face needs to be pretty open?

[hoganfan924]

EJ,

Yes, face open very late into the DS. Of course, I've been doing that for so long now that I don't even think about it. None of that early squaring to the clubhead arc for me. But you knew that already!

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349289695' post='5745541']


you made a statement about Kelvin M. and Jeff Martin and i said that wasn't true and i provided the proof. i had the goods and you just had your opinion and i showed your opinion was false. that's called backing up what you say.
[/quote]

Sorry, but you didn't and everyone can check it easily. Kelvin said my claim was UD and I didn't say one word about UD in that video. Just pure misunderstanding from him.

[ej002]

Socratic method...

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1349291066' post='5745629']
Socratic method...
[/quote]

If you like Socratic method, you'll love this guy!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/janhelfeld"]http://www.youtube.com/user/janhelfeld[/url]

[dpb5031]

With regard to left arm supination, and TeeAce's opposite move, I have very unscientifically experimented...

If I allow my hand path to track left with a concious intent to work the club in the opposite direction (as TeeAce suggests), and then just let the left arm fold post-impact, I get a tremendous feeling of leverage and compression through impact as long as keep my pivot moving. I can feel a very heavy force working on the shaft and the ball goes straight. There is no intentional supination of the left forearm for sure with this move, in fact the intent is opposite. Seems to me that a key component is keeping the upper left arm connected. If you let the left arm separate it falls apart. Also seems similar to a powerful baseball swing.

My left hand grip is in a fairly strong orientation though, and I'm sure this plays a part.

I also tried HF924s scapular retraction move with good results. Definitely felt an increase in speed, but had to be aware of staying down in the shot.

[ej002]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1349291538' post='5745675']
I also tried HF924s scapular retraction move with good results. Definitely felt an increase in speed, but had to be aware of staying down in the shot.
[/quote]
Who else never came out of a shot?

[dpb5031]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1349291789' post='5745697']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1349291538' post='5745675']
I also tried HF924s scapular retraction move with good results. Definitely felt an increase in speed, but had to be aware of staying down in the shot.
[/quote]
Who else never came out of a shot?
[/quote]

...interesting, could HF924 be on to something here with his secret scapular retraction speed move?

[drewspin]

Been a bunch of mentions of Kelvin in this thread. Here are his thoughts on how Hogan released it.

[url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2012-02-ben-hogans-release-and-how-youre-never-going-to-get-it.html"]http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2012-02-ben-hogans-release-and-how-youre-never-going-to-get-it.html[/url]

Summary conclusion from Kelvin:

" he closed his clubface much earlier in the downswing (through supination of left forearm) and used right wrist flexion, supination and ulnar deviation (seen from target line view) to impede any more clubface rotation thereafter. Some have coined this method a “closed to open” release pattern. I think it is appropriate in Hogan’s case."

Agree with Kelvin or not, what is most clear is that Kelvin does not appear to be in agreement with Tapio on Hogan's release pattern.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1349291538' post='5745675']
With regard to left arm supination, and TeeAce's opposite move, I have very unscientifically experimented...

[b]If I allow my hand path to track left with a concious intent to work the club in the opposite direction (as TeeAce suggests)[/b], and then just let the left arm fold post-impact, I get a tremendous feeling of leverage and compression through impact as long as keep my pivot moving. I can feel a very heavy force working on the shaft and the ball goes straight. There is [b]no intentional supination of the left forearm[/b] for sure with this move, [b]in fact the intent is opposite[/b]. Seems to me that [b]a key component is keeping the upper left arm connected.[/b] If you let the left arm separate it falls apart. Also seems similar to a powerful baseball swing.

My left hand grip is in a fairly strong orientation though, and I'm sure this plays a part.

I also tried HF924s scapular retraction move with good results. Definitely felt an increase in speed, but had to be aware of staying down in the shot.
[/quote]

If Hogan is doing that in this video as Tee claims, then I'm shocked that he does such a poor job of it! From :26 to :28, you can see the raised left wrist supinate into impact, whether intentional or not. Were he actively doing the opposite, it wouldn't look like that and the right hand would work underneath the left, given that Hogan's left arm at :05 is as disconnected as it could be coming into impact.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeFBj3361i8[/media]

[JBOMB808]

I gotta disagree on the closed to open release. Doesn't make sense. If you have the kind of 'lag' that Hogan has, you need to have that clubface open and laid-off. I can understand the closed to open release to be true for someone like Trevino though. The 'lag' is what results in the distance Hogan had and also what Trevino lacked. Incredible wedge accuracy was Trevino's forte. Driver length - not so much.

I want to say that the shoulder scapula 'stretch' is due to the flat plane Hogan had. You can stretch it up high ala Bubba and Nicklaus, but then you have to get out of the way of yourself instead of controlling it with body rotation. Fowler has what looks like a wicked shoulder rotation, but he goes UBER flat and stretches his lead shoulder big time! He does stall into impact though. If you could take Fowler's backswing and pair it with Mahan's through-swing, I think you'd have a very athletically-modern Hogan swing.

[dairic]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349296073' post='5746073']
Been a bunch of mentions of Kelvin in this thread. Here are his thoughts on how Hogan released it.

[url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2012-02-ben-hogans-release-and-how-youre-never-going-to-get-it.html"]http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2012-02-ben-hogans-release-and-how-youre-never-going-to-get-it.html[/url]

Summary conclusion from Kelvin:

" he closed his clubface much earlier in the downswing (through supination of left forearm) and used right wrist flexion, supination and ulnar deviation (seen from target line view) to impede any more clubface rotation thereafter. Some have coined this method a “closed to open” release pattern. I think it is appropriate in Hogan’s case."

Agree with Kelvin or not, what is most clear is that Kelvin does not appear to be in agreement with Tapio on Hogan's release pattern.
[/quote]

I think Kelvin's analysis would have been better done from a DTL view. I think what he's doing is really comparing CP vs CF release protocols. Trevor's hips are stalled for multiple frames in the sequence, so the big difference or insight is pivot and not how open or closed the face is around impact. Rate of closure is a vapour trail for type of pivot used.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1349280279' post='5744353']


Ok, fair enough...perhaps I haven't seen those previous threads. Most of us are not caught up in the personal stuff though, and likely don't have knowledge of the previous disagreements and insults. Carrying these petty arguments over into each new Hogan thread is disruptive to the discussion. I just wish all parties would just keep it civil and less personal.
[/quote]

Well, agree. But I didn't get condescending first on Tapio on THIS thread. He is also the one that started it in here. I just disagreed with him. Then he started being condescending again. I think people, before making judgments, should read the history first, not the posts they initially see when they open up their mobiles or computers.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349289381' post='5745517']
[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1349210565' post='5739707']
Hgfan
The left shoulder move.... That is what I mentioned 100 times in that other thread about steep/level
The farther & later you move the left shoulder away from the ball the more power source you are sustaining and keeping some kind of acceleration in the motion.
So long as the feet are providing sufficient resistance to make the most of this 'rocket launch'...Then arms /hands around then go up more vertically to finish - pressure stays on the shaft longer. More feel and pressure stays in the hands. Structure is held intact
Better shots- longer shots if desired- more distance control
[/quote]

I wonder if this has something to do with why I've put up some ridiculously high smash factors in my two recent Trackman sessions? 1.52 with a driver. 1.41 with my 6 iron and 1.45 with an Epon 6 iron. Numbers that some say are "impossible."
[/quote]

HGFan, were you able to try doing a hip/tailbone release at same time get to L pivot point then fire your shoulders as hard as possible? How's the numbers? Less?

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349291034' post='5745623']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349289695' post='5745541']
you made a statement about Kelvin M. and Jeff Martin and i said that wasn't true and i provided the proof. i had the goods and you just had your opinion and i showed your opinion was false. that's called backing up what you say.
[/quote]

Sorry, but you didn't and everyone can check it easily. Kelvin said my claim was UD and I didn't say one word about UD in that video. Just pure misunderstanding from him.
[/quote]


of course i did, you are talking about a different video and i proved that Kelvin and Jeff M. don't agree with your opinion on what Hogan did, and it's right in the video i posted of Kelvin, he said he doesn't agree with you about what Hogan did. so you basically are incorrect in the post of yours saying they agree with you and i proved it. you are talking about some other video and some other so called event. i'm only referring to your post here saying Kelvin and Jeff agree with you, they don't and that's obvious from the video i posted.

[ray ray]

@ teeace, just for the record are the things you say about Hogan your opinions or have you proven them as fact?

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1349312486' post='5747311']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349289381' post='5745517']
[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1349210565' post='5739707']
Hgfan
The left shoulder move.... That is what I mentioned 100 times in that other thread about steep/level
The farther & later you move the left shoulder away from the ball the more power source you are sustaining and keeping some kind of acceleration in the motion.
So long as the feet are providing sufficient resistance to make the most of this 'rocket launch'...Then arms /hands around then go up more vertically to finish - pressure stays on the shaft longer. More feel and pressure stays in the hands. Structure is held intact
Better shots- longer shots if desired- more distance control
[/quote]

I wonder if this has something to do with why I've put up some ridiculously high smash factors in my two recent Trackman sessions? 1.52 with a driver. 1.41 with my 6 iron and 1.45 with an Epon 6 iron. Numbers that some say are "impossible."
[/quote]

HGFan, were you able to try doing a hip/tailbone release at same time get to L pivot point then fire your shoulders as hard as possible? How's the numbers? Less?
[/quote]

I don't ever think about "tailbone release," whatever that really is. I certainly don't do that "butt tuck" move - I think that's all post impact window dressing for style points and my back is already too worn out for reverse C. I do back shift in my backswing and transition so already strong into the left leg and tailbone is already well forward at the start of the downswing. In other words, my tailbone is moving slightly targetward in the backswing. Then it's just clear out the left hip with some upper body lag and pull that left scapula back in a fast but smooth as possible manner starting at around P5-5.5. Can't be jerky with it even though it happens in about 0.1 sec. Lol

Might have to revise my thinking about how much that might bend the plane line left though. Was helping out a friend tonight who's been struggling with thin, wipey shots and introduced him to this. Really started hitting it straighter and more powerfully. Surprised me. He does lag it well and flattens the shaft, but his pivot isn't working as it should yet (a little slide off the ball and not deep enough) so I thought he wasn't ready for this

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349312942' post='5747349']
@ teeace, just for the record are the things you say about Hogan your opinions or have you proven them as fact?
[/quote]

Since Hogan's been dead for over 15 years and was never in a k-vest, trackman, "4D system," etc. just about anything that anyone says about his swing other than the most obvious things (like that he used a modified vardon grip) are their opinion based on the limited information available to them

[TeeAce]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1349301180' post='5746487']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1349291538' post='5745675']
With regard to left arm supination, and TeeAce's opposite move, I have very unscientifically experimented...

[b]If I allow my hand path to track left with a concious intent to work the club in the opposite direction (as TeeAce suggests)[/b], and then just let the left arm fold post-impact, I get a tremendous feeling of leverage and compression through impact as long as keep my pivot moving. I can feel a very heavy force working on the shaft and the ball goes straight. There is [b]no intentional supination of the left forearm[/b] for sure with this move, [b]in fact the intent is opposite[/b]. Seems to me that [b]a key component is keeping the upper left arm connected.[/b] If you let the left arm separate it falls apart. Also seems similar to a powerful baseball swing.

My left hand grip is in a fairly strong orientation though, and I'm sure this plays a part.

I also tried HF924s scapular retraction move with good results. Definitely felt an increase in speed, but had to be aware of staying down in the shot.
[/quote]

If Hogan is doing that in this video as Tee claims, then I'm shocked that he does such a poor job of it! From :26 to :28, you can see the [b]raised left wrist supinate into impact, whether intentional or no[/b]t. Were he actively doing the opposite, it wouldn't look like that and the right hand would work underneath the left, given that Hogan's left arm at :05 is as disconnected as it could be coming into impact.

[/quote]

MJ, wrist cant supinate. I mean that it's not at all a term to talk about wrist movement. Wrists can ulnar- and radial deviate, they can flex and extend, but nothing else. Supination is term for forearm rotation around it's own axis and relative to the upper arm. Not a direction, just specific movement and produced by biceps brachii and supinator muscles.

What I really disagree with Kelvin is that Hogan had early supination in his DSW. Also in that video I see left wrist move from cupped to bowed, but the rotation of the hand/arm happens in unison with body. Cant see independent forearm rotation there and it wouldn't be logical even.

Let me put it this way: Take your position that your left arm is parallel to the ground in DSW. We use to see the shaft being about 40 degrees plane there and stay quite much at that angle. Now if you make real supination there, the every degree you supinate your left forearm steepens the shaft and quite soon brings the club head outside of your hands.

Now as we know about all good players are able to keep the club head inside of their hands much longer than hackers, and Hogan was one of the best to do it, how there could be any early supination? I would say rather opposite. As well I think we all understand that human being cant change his muscular action from one side to another in the time of 0,2s and even twice as Kelvin is claiming.

IMO there is one muscular [b]action[/b] in hands and arms and it starts at transition. It's left forearm pronation as we can see, as the shaft flattens and then going from cupped to bowed later in the DSW with left wrist flexion (PF = bowing) All the other movements we can see are mainly [b]reactions [/b]produced by forces and inertia as the inner circle moving directions and speeds are changing.

Here is the PF (bowing movement) showed at middle of the DSW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3ZiqTAEt8A&feature=plcp

So to close the face the bowing of the left wrist is one part of that, because the shaft is more or less perpendicular to our forearm. And about that I totally agree with Kelvin that Hogan did that quite early in his DSW, but I disagree that he then started to rotate the face open. I believe the face opening rotation was on all the time by his arms triangle (pitch elbow etc) and that bowing action happened just before impact, as it fits perfectly to 5L pictures and text around pages 101 - 105

And you all can see how Kelvin confused things from this video what he made for me. Listen carefully from the first words, because it all starts just there. I didn't say a word about UD in my video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVq0dPlL55c

[ray ray]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349324927' post='5748107']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349312942' post='5747349']
@ teeace, just for the record are the things you say about Hogan your opinions or have you proven them as fact?
[/quote]

Since Hogan's been dead for over 15 years and was never in a k-vest, trackman, "4D system," etc. just about anything that anyone says about his swing other than the most obvious things (like that he used a modified vardon grip) are their opinion based on the limited information available to them
[/quote]



that's what i thought untill i read that teeace said he had proven it 100% and everything he says about Hogan is a proven fact by him. just ask him if it's his opinion or if it's proven fact. notice he ignored my question and he won't answer it and he will not say it's just his opinion.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349331930' post='5748241']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349324927' post='5748107']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1349312942' post='5747349']
@ teeace, just for the record are the things you say about Hogan your opinions or have you proven them as fact?
[/quote]

Since Hogan's been dead for over 15 years and was never in a k-vest, trackman, "4D system," etc. just about anything that anyone says about his swing other than the most obvious things (like that he used a modified vardon grip) are their opinion based on the limited information available to them
[/quote]



that's what i thought untill i read that teeace said he had proven it 100% and everything he says about Hogan is a proven fact by him. just ask him if it's his opinion or if it's proven fact. notice he ignored my question and he won't answer it and he will not say it's just his opinion.
[/quote]

The pictures are proven fact.