Hogan had a baseball swing

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349126834' post='5733207']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349123401' post='5732725']

They can if they first move away from the body (straight out) and then body rotation drags them in.

[/quote]

^^

This is what you teach now?

Honest question.
[/quote]

I can't see there could be other way to open the triangle and flatten the shaft. Why you ask something like that? (Honest question also)

But be careful about terms and definitions. Out means toward the target line, not away from the body like Manzellas out toss.

[TeeAce]

LOL Guys... you really make this funny.

 

When I say it, it's BS and just got no sense. When one of your idol players is doing it, its the greatest thing in the world.

 

 

He got small problem with his hip area, but I don't think it matters anything.

 

Just one great low and left swing as we all can see

 

That man is trying to move the arms, hands and clubhead as DTL as possible with his pivot.

 

You've evaded the important questions that will make people learn. Now you say you teach tailbone release, and you know how Hogan's pivot, which is not unique you say, works.

 

So, how does a tailbone release and Hogan's normal pivot works? And assuming you know it, how does it affect the other parts of the body and ultimately the clubhead and clubface?

 

...For the sake of "reading" how all this works on a forum I think you guys are both slightly off here.

 

If the hands stay on the shirt buttons then the release cant be "Low and Left" although it looks that way

 

And to say the player pictured is trying to swing the arm triangle/handle/clubhead with his pivot doesnt really explain it as you have to do some very active things with your arms to get correct alignments

 

Nobody said mcnary is not swinging left , in fact he is , the point was that some yahoo was putting up some cf swings of morad guys and saying they stall and flip and basically stating this is what they teach

 

Nobody? And not also earlier? Really?

 

Yep yep... and those pictures were from web page where they represent their MORAD golf school and it's results. That's why I posted them. And the stills from Mac himself were from his "golden years" when he was playing his best.

 

But as you have been calling me stupid that long when I claimed Hogan swung low and left, and also said this McNary doesn't, I think you should keep your mind and line. Keep on claiming things that are totally opposite than everyone can see.

 

But I tell you one really really sure thing about MORAD. Are you ready?

 

 

Whenever there is flames and fight at any forum, MORAD guys are middle of it... or should maybe say MORAD nicks, because there is not so many of you as you make it look like. And nothing wrong to be a real believer, but try sometimes to get the basics right first and then go to the details.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349142308' post='5734861']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349141743' post='5734779']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349126834' post='5733207']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349123401' post='5732725']
They can if they first move away from the body (straight out) and then body rotation drags them in.

[/quote]

^^

This is what you teach now?

Honest question.
[/quote]

I know a "Hogan guy" that teaches just this (not Slicefixer). I don't do it, don't believe in it but it's not quite as awful as it sounds (for the right player). The hands moving out actually flattens the shaft a bit, so for the right guy, it can look way OTT but not produce an OTT result. Can be a helpful corrective thought for a guy that drives the hands straight down and gets stuck. At least for a while.

Depends a lot on how high the hands are at the top of the BS. Snead had a very pronounced "reverse loop shift" in some swings and times in his career.
[/quote]

Yes, OTT can still be from the inside... Just thought it would ask Tapio to explain further... Withholding commentary here, and trying to understand, though I can see how that fits with some of his demonstrations posted on line.
[/quote]

Drew I think the confusion is when I have been showing so much isolated movements and concentrated the arms and club head relation that the over all image hasn't come clear. And i also think we have never discussed anywhere what and how I teach. Some details maybe yes, but nothing about the big view.

About OTT... I think hackers OTT is supination in reality and just opposite than triangle opening what I teach. It's not about hand path, its much more about throwing the club head out (steepening the shaft) and getting the right elbow above the left. Bringing right elbow under the left and toward the target line (triangle opening) really doesn't look at all like OTT even the hand path goes out in reality. If you want your right elbow to the front of your right hip, I dont see many possibilities to do it.

[doram101]

Geez where did I make any such statements calling you an idiot ? I didn't read hogangolf 101 post , but once again the issue is one of trying to swing low and left , you have no idea what mcnary does neither do you know hogan tried to do this on purpose
You make statements about other golf models such as morad and teachers yet you know nothing about them or what they teach . Get a grip on reality

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349147829' post='5735435']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349142308' post='5734861']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349141743' post='5734779']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349126834' post='5733207']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349123401' post='5732725']
They can if they first move away from the body (straight out) and then body rotation drags them in.

[/quote]

^^

This is what you teach now?

Honest question.
[/quote]

I know a "Hogan guy" that teaches just this (not Slicefixer). I don't do it, don't believe in it but it's not quite as awful as it sounds (for the right player). The hands moving out actually flattens the shaft a bit, so for the right guy, it can look way OTT but not produce an OTT result. Can be a helpful corrective thought for a guy that drives the hands straight down and gets stuck. At least for a while.

Depends a lot on how high the hands are at the top of the BS. Snead had a very pronounced "reverse loop shift" in some swings and times in his career.
[/quote]

Yes, OTT can still be from the inside... Just thought it would ask Tapio to explain further... Withholding commentary here, and trying to understand, though I can see how that fits with some of his demonstrations posted on line.
[/quote]

Drew I think the confusion is when I have been showing so much isolated movements and concentrated the arms and club head relation that the over all image hasn't come clear. And i also think we have never discussed anywhere what and how I teach. Some details maybe yes, but nothing about the big view.

About OTT... I think hackers OTT is supination in reality and just opposite than triangle opening what I teach. It's not about hand path, its much more about throwing the club head out (steepening the shaft) and getting the right elbow above the left. Bringing right elbow under the left and toward the target line (triangle opening) really doesn't look at all like OTT even the hand path goes out in reality. If you want your right elbow to the front of your right hip, I dont see many possibilities to do it.
[/quote]


total rubbish, over the top is not supination, only in your mixed up world is that even a remotely possible explanation.
the shaft has to steepen eventually, you have no clue as you don't know about the torques the golfer puts on the club.

and you have to especially steepen the shaft from your flattening move that you displayed in your video about the reverse circles, you need positive beta torque. ask Monty S. he knows, ask B. Manzella and Mike Jacobs they know, ask Sasho M. he knows, ask S, Nesbit or ask me we all know, but you don't.


oh that's right you rely on pics and the easter bunny...lol! crazy rabbit.

[doram101]

How do you know Mac considers that cf swing from thirty years ago to be his ideal representation now ? The guy had numerous patterns at one stage , can you tell us what he teaches now?

[drewspin]

I was only asking for clarification Tapio. I am not confused, nor did I misunderstand what you wrote. I have eyes and a brain also.

P.S. if you look at the iron swing high speed video of Chapman, pause it when his hands are almost in front of his right thigh on the DS... Look at how much CCW axial rotation (and I'll just call that instead of supination to avoid going round and round) he has in the left FOREARM until impact. It is almost 90 degrees of ccw axial rotaion in the forearm, T. Watch his logo on his glove. That's cause Chapman has a proper weak left hand grip. Hogan had EVEN more when he hit his fade.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='doram101' timestamp='1349149410' post='5735551']
How do you know Mac considers that cf swing from thirty years ago to be his ideal representation now ? The guy had numerous patterns at one stage , can you tell us what he teaches now?
[/quote]

Don't you read these posts?

I told you I took those images from an instruction video of the MORAD golf school.

And actually I'm not at all interested about MORAD at all. Or any other method for teaching as I just coach people to get what they need. And claims that MORAD is the only one that has been found what Hogan did is pure BS

[TeeAce]

I was only asking for clarification Tapio. I am not confused, nor did I misunderstand what you wrote. I have eyes and a brain also.

 

P.S. if you look at the iron swing high speed video of Chapman, pause it when his hands are almost in front of his right thigh on the DS... Look at how much CCW axial rotation (and I'll just call that instead of supination to avoid going round and round) he has in the left FOREARM until impact. It is almost 90 degrees of ccw axial rotaion in the forearm, T. Watch his logo on his glove. That's cause Chapman has a proper weak left hand grip. Hogan had EVEN more when he hit his fade.

 

The point we see differently is not how much it rotates to impact, rather what makes it rotate and at the beginning of this all s*** it was only about Hogans using term supination and showing and describing bowing, which is not that at all.

 

Look at Chapmans left deltoid and try to imagine how much that turns from mentioned point to impact. That makes the whole arm turn around the player and what you dont want there is independent forearm rotation around it's own axis.

 

 

If you add there independent forearm rotation, you will get the toe of the club pointing to the target at that moment. And also if you supinate your left forearm at the first image, the club head will come outside of the hands also. For this guy it comes outside of the hands very very late and there is a good reason for that.

[doram101]

So you don't know a thing about it , or what mcnary did to get the cp swing?

[drewspin]

Tapio,

I see you want to move the entire left arm assembly wit the deltoid and torso rotation, but you have to because you have already moved the hands toward the target line OTT and with your stronger left and right hand grip, you'd be off the planet left if you did it like Hogan did. Hogan waited very very late to move the hands toward the target line, and the pivot them through from a more inside approach than you teach. Not saying your way is bad or wrong, or making any judgement, just saying it is clear from the entry path that Hogan is taking an inside approach until LATE... Right shoulder is the root of the difference. Hogan got it much lower.

P.S the guy in the photo above is totally stuck with the right elbow lagging badly... No wonder he has to chop his way out.

And hogan never mentions INTENT to supinate he describes the fact that it happens.

How do you reconcile your teaching with the plane shift diagrams on pp 88-89 of 5L? Or is that something Hogan did not actually do, in your conception of his swing "fundamentals?"

[TeeAce]

Drew, here is some picks of Chapman

 

 

Look at his left deltoid. It's perpendicular to the target line at the first image and turned more than 90 degrees before impact. Imagine that from top down and you get same kind of image I posted before this. It's whole arm rotation around the player, not independent forearm rotation to close the face.

 

And here is what I said about hands out. I just have to disagree with you about this that Hogan kept his hands in much longer. If I compare his swing and mine, I still come much more straight down than he

 

 

I cant imagine they could be more "out" at this moment before he starts to turn them in. Noren got this pretty well I think.

[drewspin]

Lol looking at the left deltoid from a DTL shot is ABSURD!

Use the iron swing so we can see what point you are trying to make.

[TeeAce]

And this first move is what I'm talking about

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C5_Dkim3p0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C5_Dkim3p0[/url]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349154956' post='5735857']
Lol looking at the left deltoid from a DTL shot is ABSURD!

Use the iron swing so we can see what point you are trying to make.
[/quote]

Not at all absurd. Doesn't really need lot of understanding to see where it points. Specially when one has been watching thousands of swings synchronized from different angles.

[drewspin]

You must be suffering from willful blindness to not use the perfectly excellent up the line high speed footage of a short sleeved chapman hitting an iron to make your point.... Oh, wait. ... SH!T It shows that forearm rotation exactly as Drew describes.

Are you so wedded to your theory that you can't see what I am saying is, in fact true?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nJLfdKXJtss[/media]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349155684' post='5735883']
You must be suffering from willful blindness to not use the perfectly excellent up the line high speed footage of a short sleeved chapman hitting an iron to make your point.... Oh, wait. ... SH!T It shows that forearm rotation exactly as Drew describes.

Are you so wedded to your theory that you can't see what I am saying is, in fact true?
[/quote]

No matter how many times I look at that, I don't see any independent forearm rotation and it would be disaster there. The problem is that the circle is really narrow from top down view also as hands are moving down at the same time, but it's there and it's around the player. I just cant understand how you dont see it as I think you are one of the most clever guys here. If there would be additional forearm rotation with that deltoid move, the face would be much closed and passing the hands very early. Remember the angles.

And not even when you have seen this video many times

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pebH5RL3YJE&feature=plcp"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pebH5RL3YJE&feature=plcp[/url]

[drewspin]

I'll tell you what... You know Kelvin ... Send him the email link to the up the line chapman video above where it is pretty darned clear to me, and apparentlyl clear to you and we'll see what he says about the degrees of left forearm rotation from just below right hip height to impact...

If he sees it your way, I will shut up and keep working on my eyesight and internal swing modeling... If he sees it my way, maybe you'll have a bit different perspective.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349157411' post='5735907']
I'll tell you what... You know Kelvin ... Send him the email link to the up the line chapman video above where it is pretty darned clear to me, and apparentlyl clear to you and we'll see what he says about the degrees of left forearm rotation from just below right hip height to impact...

If he sees it your way, I will shut up and keep working on my eyesight and internal swing modeling... If he sees it my way, maybe you'll have a bit different perspective.
[/quote]

No need for that Drew. I have been telling this to people... from playing Pros to beginners so many many years and never get any disagreement from anyone IRL. And you know why? Because when they do it as I tell them, the face is always square without any forearm rotation. It's that simple when just showing it and asking them to do that. For sure some people think that they loose CHS with that, but they also find it was not true and they even gain that.

Like I said before, no one have to believe me, I'm not selling anything here, so it's fine for me if people don't take this. Free choice, but it's here if someone wants it and that's fine for me. I just don't want people to make same mistakes I made my earlier years with that forearm rotation. Destroyed too many talented players by that

[TeeAce]

Here it is again. Relation between the hand and deltoid remained same and whole system turned left. Not as much as Hogan, but quite well anyway.

BTW, how about comment for those Hogan "hands out" things? Seems really obvious for me

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349159519' post='5735949']
Here it is again. Relation between the hand and deltoid remained same and whole system turned left. Not as much as Hogan, but quite well anyway.

BTW, how about comment for those Hogan "hands out" things? Seems really obvious for me
[/quote]

Ta...i see what you are saying now in regards to low left.

I think left shoulder down is another element that hasn't been mentioned in regards to Hogan's pattern in this thread, but hands out is somewhat misleading cuz of setup alignments and camera angles.

If you're coming way inside but bending baseline left then you would feel lots of shoulder down and armswing because you're fighting cf That's why it drives me nuts to see people call it a body release. I guess it all depends on the golfer, but if you can really turn then the arms are really really involved

[TeeAce]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1349171777' post='5736119']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349159519' post='5735949']
Here it is again. Relation between the hand and deltoid remained same and whole system turned left. Not as much as Hogan, but quite well anyway.

BTW, how about comment for those Hogan "hands out" things? Seems really obvious for me
[/quote]

Ta...i see what you are saying now in regards to low left.

I think left shoulder down is another element that hasn't been mentioned in regards to Hogan's pattern in this thread, [b]but hands out is somewhat misleading cuz of setup alignments and camera angles.[/b]

If you're coming way inside but bending baseline left then you would feel lots of shoulder down and armswing because you're fighting cf That's why it drives me nuts to see people call it a body release. I guess it all depends on the golfer, but if you can really turn then the arms are really really involved
[/quote]

Yep, and thats why we builded this device to see the truth. If there is lot of similar things in videos with Hogan and some other good player, we can be quite sure that also graphs are some way the same. And there is few but not too many who can keep that elbow position through the impact when going low and left. That's the hard part of it.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349157411' post='5735907']
I'll tell you what... You know Kelvin ... Send him the email link to the up the line chapman video above where it is pretty darned clear to me, and apparentlyl clear to you and we'll see what he says about the degrees of left forearm rotation from just below right hip height to impact...

If he sees it your way, I will shut up and keep working on my eyesight and internal swing modeling... If he sees it my way, maybe you'll have a bit different perspective.
[/quote]'


Drew, I had a question for you regarding this. Tried to PM you but your inbox is full.

[TeeAce]

And even the angle is bit different, we can see big difference here

 

[hoganfan924]

And even the angle is bit different, we can see big difference here

 

 

Nothing lags the clubhead like sod!

[doram101]

Hoganfan sensible posts are not allowed , I wonder how anyone can use that shot as a pointer, without having a clue what hogan was doing on it , the judge would throw it out

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='doram101' timestamp='1349187095' post='5737097']
Hoganfan sensible posts are not allowed , I wonder how anyone can use a pitch shot as a pointer , the judge would throw it out
[/quote]

Well, I doubt that's a pitch shot, but the turf is flying while Chapman is hitting an iron off the tee and doesn't take a divot. Plenty of footage of Hogan where he lets the clubhead pass his hands and "recups" his left wrist in a similar manner to Chapman (perhaps just a frame later but similar). In any case, one frame or photo of one swing isn't much evidence, IMO. Especially with photo's where you don't know what kind of shot was being hit.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349157411' post='5735907']
I'll tell you what... You know Kelvin ... Send him the email link to the up the line chapman video above where it is pretty darned clear to me, and apparentlyl clear to you and we'll see what he says about the degrees of left forearm rotation from just below right hip height to impact...

If he sees it your way, I will shut up and keep working on my eyesight and internal swing modeling... If he sees it my way, maybe you'll have a bit different perspective.
[/quote]

Where is the golf swing video of the Kelvin guy?? Does he swing the club or just analyze how others swing it?

[drewspin]

Probably too tough for even the very cool 4D swing machine to separately trace through time the axial rotation of (1) the styloid process of the ulna and (2) the olecranon process of the lead arm... which might be quite revealing...

I suppose we'll each have to rely on our own 3D internal mental conceptions while looking at inferior substitutes, such as, for example, up the line swing vision slow motion footage of great ballstrikers with weakish left hand grips swinging in shirt sleeves. Maybe we can get just close enough to the data by focusing on the lead elbow and the glove hand logos, as we long for more precise information.

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349159519' post='5735949']
BTW, how about comment for those Hogan "hands out" things? Seems really obvious for me
[/quote]

It's a fair point and I need to REALLY think on this some more for my own internal conception of what Hogan did. I do in fact see some "hands out" toward the target line... but the timing of when that occurs is not easily comprehended by looking at stills or by film that is showing things only from one angle... so in fairness to a fair point, I will keep looking at and studying that.