Hogan had a baseball swing

[Jobu]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1348802347' post='5708667']
Fact.
[/quote]

Finally getting somewhere. Now what are the most powerful baseball swing? a side arm throw, which is exactly how Hogan himself describes it.

[tylerdurden]

You're a funny dude Jobu.

[Jobu]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1348832361' post='5709831']




Or as I've likened it to....A baseball hitter hitting a low-and-outside fastball back up the middle.
[/quote]

that would be the exact opposite of what you are trying to preach. hitting that pitch would be an early extension zero body rotation swing.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348848126' post='5711609']

[indent=1]You have to be disconnected enough and have some forearm rotation to get this:[/indent]

[indent=1][url="http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/0a3483529bc6ae27_large"]http://www.gstatic.c...29bc6ae27_large[/url][/indent]

[indent=1][url="http://images.google.com/hosted/life/4300ec43e914bd2b.html"]http://images.google...43e914bd2b.html[/url][/indent]

[indent=1][url="http://images.google.com/hosted/life/2fd32a77fb432e87.html"]http://images.google...77fb432e87.html[/url][/indent]
[/quote]

Agreed. He is even more "disconnected" with left arm in Power Golf era (my personal fav).

[drewspin]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1348848024' post='5711587']
i always thought the left hand was connected to the left shoulder and the left arm is always the same length.
so if you wanted your hands staying low then doesn't the left shoulder have to stay low?
is it the hands telling the left shoulder what to do or the left shoulder telling the hands?
[/quote]

Sort of, you can think of the hands rising as they go OUT away from the core, vs. remaining lower if they track IN AND BELOW the shoulders (from a DTL perspective). For me any way this is the key difference between "low" and "high"

The intent to keep the hands "DOWN" or "low" means IN not OUT.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Somebody needs to find a baseball swing video of an actual low and inside pitch.........with the real hit. Would be cool if it was a homerun too.

[rok78]

The only similarities between a good baseball swing and a good golf swing (elite level stuff) are broad generalities like how you "load" the core. I have had countless discussions of this with a friend who coaches in the Marlins system. A good baseball swing will be a huge slice in golf, it's the nature of the equipment.

[drewspin]

[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1348849540' post='5711833']
The only similarities between a good baseball swing and a good golf swing (elite level stuff) are broad generalities like how you "load" the core. I have had countless discussions of this with a friend who coaches in the Marlins system. A good baseball swing will be a huge slice in golf, it's the nature of the equipment.
[/quote]

Look a bit harder, Rok.

Not saying they are the same.. but there are more similarities.

[Jobu]

let me drop this knowledge on you, TD. In the most basic natural swing, the right arm extends towards the target. That's the problem with golf. The ball is the target of the swing. In baseball the target is in front of you, and the swing will instinctively start with the lower body. It's like a right handed pitcher, if the golf ball were 3rd base and the hole was home plate, and the clubhead was the baseball. He must throw the "clubhead" towards the "hole." This is why the greatest players are known for and emphasize focusing on the shot and shape then stepping up and hitting the shot. A lot of them teach the idea of catching the ball on the face and throwing it into the golf course. Or you could think of the the lacrosse throw as in the ball being attached to the clubface and you are slinging it out to the target. ben hogan says golf is not natural. It's not because the object you are hitting cannot be your target.

[drewspin]

Here's one where the intent to go low AND left can help:

[url="http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/7f701f6d07bbd235_large"]http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/7f701f6d07bbd235_large[/url]

[rok78]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348849817' post='5711867']
[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1348849540' post='5711833']
The only similarities between a good baseball swing and a good golf swing (elite level stuff) are broad generalities like how you "load" the core. I have had countless discussions of this with a friend who coaches in the Marlins system. A good baseball swing will be a huge slice in golf, it's the nature of the equipment.
[/quote]

Look a bit harder, Rok.

Not saying they are the same.. but there are more similarities.
[/quote]

Well, I'm not saying there aren't similarities, but that they are general in nature.

I've looked at it quite a bit and even through the many different eyes of baseball swing theories. The one that has the most commonalities is the "rotational" baseball swing theory and even then the specifics are not the same. Different hand paths, planes for eyes/shoulders/hands/bat or club, lower body use, head movement. And the biggest thing of all, baseball remembers that elite athletes are elite athletes for a reason.

Ball is moving versus ball not moving makes a big difference.

[Pinsplitter59]

what a great photo
[attachment=1364957:hogan_rear_view.jpg]

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1348850498' post='5711971']
let me drop this knowledge on you, TD. In the most basic natural swing, the right arm extends towards the target. That's the problem with golf. The ball is the target of the swing. In baseball the target is in front of you, and the swing will instinctively start with the lower body. It's like a right handed pitcher, if the golf ball were 3rd base and the hole was home plate, and the clubhead was the baseball. He must throw the "clubhead" towards the "hole." This is why the greatest players are known for and emphasize focusing on the shot and shape then stepping up and hitting the shot. A lot of them teach the idea of catching the ball on the face and throwing it into the golf course. Or you could think of the the lacrosse throw as in the ball being attached to the clubface and you are slinging it out to the target. ben hogan says golf is not natural. It's not because the object you are hitting cannot be your target.
[/quote]

Yep. Ball is in front of you. It makes logical sense that a low and inside fast ball would have to be hit down third base line, or pulled foul into the stands. Has anyone ever seen a low and inside fast ball hit to center field or right field?? Video! video! video!

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1348847717' post='5711515']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1348847224' post='5711447']
THis baseball research is good stuff. Are there any baseball players that get the club shaft.......er um....I mean, the bat shaft up to or beyond parallel? Most of what I see here are 3/4 level swings.

Who is the John Daly and Jamie Sadlowski of baseball swings??
[/quote]

Another question: Are there any MLB players that DO NOT lift the lead foot??
[/quote]

Miguel Cabrera keeps his left foot down on some swings, especially when he has 2 strikes. Just lifts the heel. Been doing it a lot this year. Best pure hitter in baseball for the last 8 years when you consider that he never gets an infield hit. One of the all-time greats. Still in the hunt for the triple crown!

Look at his swings at 3:38 & 4:41

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwnWnn9CMtk&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwnWnn9CMtk&feature=related[/url]

[Pinsplitter59]

the greatest mystery to me is HOW the left arm separates from the right shoulder area as you move back to the ball.
(i have a secret solution but i won't tell you coz you won't like it)

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348851290' post='5712093']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1348847717' post='5711515']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1348847224' post='5711447']
THis baseball research is good stuff. Are there any baseball players that get the club shaft.......er um....I mean, the bat shaft up to or beyond parallel? Most of what I see here are 3/4 level swings.

Who is the John Daly and Jamie Sadlowski of baseball swings??
[/quote]

Another question: Are there any MLB players that DO NOT lift the lead foot??
[/quote]

Miguel Cabrera keeps his left foot down on some swings, especially when he has 2 strikes. Just lifts the heel. Been doing it a lot this year. Best pure hitter in baseball for the last 8 years when you consider that he never gets an infield hit. One of the all-time greats. Still in the hunt for the triple crown!

Look at his swings at 3:38 & 4:41

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwnWnn9CMtk&feature=related[/media]
[/quote]

Good stuff Hfan924! the 3:38 and 4:41 looks like 1970's golf footwork. Even with rIght foot sliding/dragging too.

But do you know of anybody that make a full baseball swing but keeps the lead foot down?....including the heel down.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1348850498' post='5711971']
let me drop this knowledge on you, TD. In the most basic natural swing, the right arm extends towards the target. That's the problem with golf. The ball is the target of the swing. In baseball the target is in front of you, and the swing will instinctively start with the lower body. It's like a right handed pitcher, if the golf ball were 3rd base and the hole was home plate, and the clubhead was the baseball. He must throw the "clubhead" towards the "hole." This is why the greatest players are known for and emphasize focusing on the shot and shape then stepping up and hitting the shot. A lot of them teach the idea of catching the ball on the face and throwing it into the golf course. Or you could think of the the lacrosse throw as in the ball being attached to the clubface and you are slinging it out to the target. ben hogan says golf is not natural. It's not because the object you are hitting cannot be your target.
[/quote]

Interesting.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Jobu' timestamp='1348848806' post='5711727']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1348832361' post='5709831']
Or as I've likened it to....A baseball hitter hitting a low-and-outside fastball back up the middle.
[/quote]

that would be the exact opposite of what you are trying to preach. hitting that pitch would be an early extension zero body rotation swing.
[/quote]

It wouldn't be if wanted to hit the ball with any power.

The motion of a powerful baseball swing doesn't change. What changes is impact point you try to achieve. Pull hitters commit early and try to hit the ball well out in front of the plate (which his why they strike out and hit pop flies so often). Hitters who play to the middle of the field tend to hit the ball just in front of the plate. Opposite field hitters tend to hit the ball when it is over the plate itself.

But hitters who swing their arms without the support of a strong pivot/body rotation are referred to as "slap hitters". Such players can often be successful "singles" hitters who hit for high average, but they are not the kind of players who will hit the ball powerfully for extra-bases.

[drewspin]

[attachment=1364965:ted-williams-500-19.jpg]

[attachment=1364967:4215613554_9cc666eefc.jpg]

[tylerdurden]

I love this thread

[hoganfan924]

Don't know of any hitter that keep the lead foot flat on the ground, Anthony.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1348849540' post='5711833']
The only similarities between a good baseball swing and a good golf swing (elite level stuff) are broad generalities like how you "load" the core. I have had countless discussions of this with a friend who coaches in the Marlins system. A good baseball swing will be a huge slice in golf, it's the nature of the equipment.
[/quote]

Disagree....and I played D-I college ball and worked with a hitting instructor who coached in the Mets system.

The human body only has a few ways that it can swing/throw an object powerfully. The dissimilarities between a baseball swing and a ONE-PLANE golf swing have only to do with the fact that a golf swing is trying to hit a stationary object that is on the ground...and a baseball swing is trying to hit an object that is moving in three dimensions.

Now, if you're going to try to compare a baseball swing to a TWO-PLANE golf swing...then your friend is correct. Trying to swing a golf club like you would a baseball bat from where two-plane swing fundamentals put you at the top of the golf swing would result in an OTT move and a massive slice. This type of golf swing is more like the 3/4-sidearm throwing motion that an infielder (esp. a second baseman) would make.

If we were comparing Jack Nicklaus', Freddie Couples' or Bubba Watson's golf swings to a fundamentally sound baseball swing....your friend would be right. But he is not correct when we are talking about the kind of swing a Ben Hogan or a Hunter Mahan makes.

[Llortamaisey]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1348838343' post='5710319']
your best golfers out of the baseball world weren't position players....but were PITCHERS.
[/quote]

I've been fortunate to play with some great MLB pitchers who were also great golfers. I have asked all of them why pitchers make the greatest golfers from baseball. I get two answers:

1. Pitchers have the most time off between appearances so they get to practice more golf.

2. Pitching mentality is more similar to golf mentality.

[drewspin]

[attachment=1364969:ted-williams-500-2.jpg]

[attachment=1364971:Fairway-wood.jpg]

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348852695' post='5712251']
Don't know of any hitter that keep the lead foot flat on the ground, Anthony.
[/quote]

Lol. I made a similar comment. "I don't know of any 60's or 70's golfer that kept the lead foot flat on the ground." (In a full wood swing).

Hmmmmm....that brings up another question. How about when bunting? What type of footwork does the baseball player use? Is it like a golfers pitch shot?

[drewspin]

[attachment=1364995:bos_120412_bos_ted_williams.jpg]

[attachment=1364999:14327.jpg]

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Llortamaisey' timestamp='1348853025' post='5712277']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1348838343' post='5710319']
your best golfers out of the baseball world weren't position players....but were PITCHERS.
[/quote]

I've been fortunate to play with some great MLB pitchers who were also great golfers. I have asked all of them why pitchers make the greatest golfers from baseball. I get two answers:

1. Pitchers have the most time off between appearances so they get to practice more golf.

2. Pitching mentality is more similar to golf mentality.
[/quote]

I got my first glove at age 3 and played continuously until I graduated from college ball.

I agree with both answers...and would add a third.

Most golf swing instruction is TWO-PLANE swing instruction. So they are familiar with the same sort of throwing motion...and have to cultivate the same sort of awareness of timing-and-tempo ("rhythm" or "groove" in baseball slang) that a good golfer has to.

I've played golf as both a two-plane swinger and a one-planer. As a two-planer I had to try to set aside the batting instincts that I cultivated over the first 20 years of my life..and have to get more into a throwing mindset. Despite the fact that I have a club in my hands.

But as a one-plane swinger I can relax back into those batting instincts and just fire away.

[rok78]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1348852866' post='5712259']
[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1348849540' post='5711833']
The only similarities between a good baseball swing and a good golf swing (elite level stuff) are broad generalities like how you "load" the core. I have had countless discussions of this with a friend who coaches in the Marlins system. A good baseball swing will be a huge slice in golf, it's the nature of the equipment.
[/quote]

Disagree....and I played D-I college ball and worked with a hitting instructor who coached in the Mets system.

The human body only has a few ways that it can swing/throw an object powerfully. The dissimilarities between a baseball swing and a ONE-PLANE golf swing have only to do with the fact that a golf swing is trying to hit a stationary object that is on the ground...and a baseball swing is trying to hit an object that is moving in three dimensions.

Now, if you're going to try to compare a baseball swing to a TWO-PLANE golf swing...then your friend is correct. Trying to swing a golf club like you would a baseball bat from where two-plane swing fundamentals put you at the top of the golf swing would result in an OTT move and a massive slice. This type of golf swing is more like the 3/4-sidearm throwing motion that an infielder (esp. a second baseman) would make.

If we were comparing Jack Nicklaus', Freddie Couples' or Bubba Watson's golf swings to a fundamentally sound baseball swing....your friend would be right. But he is not correct when we are talking about the kind of swing a Ben Hogan or a Hunter Mahan makes.
[/quote]

Agree to disagree.

[TeeAce]

Thanks again Drew

 

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1348854058' post='5712377']
Thanks again Drew


[/quote]

Sure thing.

Tapio, when you teach guys to swing left, what do you suggest they use as INTENT?