Hogan had a baseball swing

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1348856321' post='5712623']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1348854058' post='5712377']
Thanks again Drew


[/quote]

Sure thing.

Tapio, when you teach guys to swing left, what do you suggest they use as INTENT?
[/quote]

It depends so much of what the guy got before, but main points are swinging hands around the left leg and keeping shaft perpendicular to the target line. Another common words are keep the handle moving or keep accelerating hands all the way through.

But those are only beginning in coaching but big principals. The real work starts when they learn all the opposite balancing moves of the legs and whole body to be able to fire to that direction.

But as said, teaching and coaching are really personal things and IMO swing is maybe 10-15% of that. And also IMO the easiest part clearly.

[drewspin]

Understood - thank you.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I wonder if the guys over at baseballwrx.com have a thread called "Babe Ruth had a golf swing!"

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1348860007' post='5713039']
I wonder if the guys over at baseballwrx.com have a thread called "Babe Ruth had a golf swing!"
[/quote]

LOL

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDxDNC_8cIY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDxDNC_8cIY[/url]

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj3yd0K-BvU&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj3yd0K-BvU&feature=related[/url]

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8p0N4lCaws"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8p0N4lCaws[/url]

[kellygreen]

[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1348853895' post='5712357']

Agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Your choice. But I've got 20 years of baseball and 15 years of golf on my side on this one.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

He starts doing the Hogan Ed sullivan drill at 2:12 mark

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXtC7_dJVUs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXtC7_dJVUs[/url]

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Kelly,

Here's the situation. Its the bottom of the ninth with 2 outs, with your teams fastest runners on 1st and 2nd. Youre down by 2 runs. The absolute best third baseman, shortstop, and left fielder are out there. There's a headwind blowing in that will surely keep the ball up in the air and short of the wall, so coach tells you best option is to hit a bullet into center or right field. The absolute WORST center fielder and right fielder are out there and you are licking your chops, as they have been burned twice today. The pitcher is known to be a low inside fastball guy.

You watched 2 fastballs whiz by you for strikes cause 3rd base coach told you to hold up and make him work, cause with a walk, Babe Ruth is on deck. He throws three more borderline inside pitches that are called "BALL.. insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!".

Soooooooo, it's now a full count. He rares back and unleashes all he has at you. What if its a low inside pitch?? How the heck do you hit it up the middle or to right field?????????

[rok78]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1348861042' post='5713159']
[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1348853895' post='5712357']
Agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Your choice. But I've got 20 years of baseball and 15 years of golf on my side on this one.
[/quote]

I see your passive brag, and will raise you one . My friend with whom I have these discussions with also has over 20 years of baseball, played D-1, was all-region, male athlete of the year for his college, played professionally, coaches professionally, and has won a coach of the year award when he was in the Fronteir League before joining the Marlins. I trust his baseball knowledge.

I think the pictures Drew posted are great. There are definitely similarities, general in nature, but the specifics are different. Look at my second post on this subject and I gave a few examples. We even agree on one, ball moving versus ball on the ground makes a difference.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1348863044' post='5713363']
Kelly,

Here's the situation. Its the bottom of the ninth with 2 outs, with your teams fastest runners on 1st and 2nd. Youre down by 2 runs. The absolute best third baseman, shortstop, and left fielder are out there. There's a headwind blowing in that will surely keep the ball up in the air and short of the wall, so coach tells you best option is to hit a bullet into center or right field. The absolute WORST center fielder and right fielder are out there and you are licking your chops, as they have been burned twice today. The pitcher is known to be a low inside fastball guy.

You watched 2 fastballs whiz by you for strikes cause 3rd base coach told you to hold up and make him work, cause with a walk, Babe Ruth is on deck. He throws three more borderline inside pitches that are called "BALL.. insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!".

Soooooooo, it's now a full count. He rares back and unleashes all he has at you. What if its a low inside pitch?? How the heck do you hit it up the middle or to right field?????????
[/quote]

You either do one of two things:

1. You learn to swing "inside-out" so that you can still deliver the bat powerfully while allowing the hands and the bat head to lag behind the opening of your body....(which is as much a specialty "shot" in baseball as a knockdown is in golf)...or...

2. You back away from the plate, just enough to make sure that you can foul off any pitch on the outside corner...and then you just pull the trigger LATE on an inside pitch so that you can catch it when it is over the plate without allowing the pitcher to handcuff you.

Because it is the impact point that determines where the ball goes.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1348867597' post='5713691']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1348861042' post='5713159']
[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1348853895' post='5712357']
Agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Your choice. But I've got 20 years of baseball and 15 years of golf on my side on this one.
[/quote]

I see your passive brag, and will raise you one . My friend with whom I have these discussions with also has over 20 years of baseball, played D-1, was all-region, male athlete of the year for his college, played professionally, coaches professionally, and has won a coach of the year award when he was in the Fronteir League before joining the Marlins. I trust his baseball knowledge.

I think the pictures Drew posted are great. There are definitely similarities, general in nature, but the specifics are different. Look at my second post on this subject and I gave a few examples. We even agree on one, ball moving versus ball on the ground makes a difference.
[/quote]

I don't have to trust anyone [i][b]else's[/b][/i] knowledge of the game of baseball.


I've played at the elite level as well. As a power-hitting-to-all-fields second baseman. I didn't go pro mainly because I chose not to, realizing that I didn't have a passion for the game when it ceased to be a game....and became a job. That I would probably wind up topping out at AAA, and not going any farther...and I didn't want to live that lifestyle when I had other career options.

I've played with two current Hall of Famers during their school days...against third who set the career home-run record in Japanese baseball, and a host of other major leaguers who have had less distinguished careers, journeyman and minor leaguers. As well as playing for a D-I collegiate program that has national championship on its resume.

My hitting instructor when I was in high school was former AAA player in the Mets farm system, a D-III head coach who eventually went on to manager in the Mets system.

I KNOW what I'm talking about where the baseball swing is concerned.

But the issue here is not your friends knowledge of the baseball swing. [i][b]The issue is that there are many different ways of swinging a golf club[/b][/i]. Some correspond well to the baseball swing (one-plane). Others do not (two-plane) and are best analogized (in baseball terms) to a throwing motion.

The only specifics that are different between a one-plane golf swing and a powerful baseball swing are those that relate to trying to hit a moving object that is in the AIR. Your friends statement regarding the golf swing and the baseball swing apply very well to comparisons between a good baseball swing and a TWO-PLANE golf swing...but are off-the-mark where the one-plane swing is concerned.

[rok78]

Glad to see you are so open minded.

If you think the only difference between a golf swing (one plane) and a baseball swing is that the baseball swing involves an object in the air, then that's where we have to agree to disagree. I think that inherently makes things different and I listed a few examples of why in post #71.

[tylerdurden]

I thought everyone realized that 1 plane vs 2 plane swings were a fallacy. Come on it's 2012.

[chrisgilly09]

Lol its like the new S&T guidelines...everybody fits within 'their' parameters

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1348874305' post='5714161']
I thought everyone realized that 1 plane vs 2 plane swings were a fallacy. Come on it's 2012.
[/quote]

Just simple vernacular introduced by Jim Hardy to explain two very different ways to swing the club. Nothing wrong with that. Almost no "1-planer" swings without a plane shift, but believe it or not, zero plane shift swingers do exist. iteach had a student with a zero shift swing. I saw the video of it.

[allycat]

I always thought the plane shift a la 5L was the two plane swinger lol. Shows what this old guy knows. On this train of thought, what do you guys make of Stricker?

[JBOMB808]

I think the idea of a baseball swing is 'simple' and that's the best way to explain Hogan's swing.

Imagine focus on keeping two angles the maintained throughout the swing:

-Spine angle(towards the ball) at address
-Shaft angle at address

You should have a swing that resembles a 'baseball swing'.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1348843718' post='5710987']

I understand.

My point is that the phrase "low and left" is not an absolute phrase, but is in COMPARISON to the release of the club in a 2-plane swing. So unless you look at BOTH kinds of swings, you will not clearly understand what people are talking about when they say a one-plane swinger is "releasing the club low-and-left through impact".

It is just another way of saying a one-planer is swinging the club AROUND their body in close conjunction with their body rotation...while a two-planer is releasing the club PAST their body in a throwing motion.
[/quote]

Yes. But given the tendency of a one-plane or connected arms swing to go left earlier as compared to a 2-planer disconnected arms swing, Hogan's connected arms swing primary characteristic is that he made it as less left as possible so that the baseline would be as close to DTL as possible (same description as Hardy btw, his explanation why it will look like more like a cast in transition bec the clubhead is NEARER the baseline/targetline he says). That's the exact reason why a connected arms swing must have a relatively vertical shoulder turn, to offset the earlier left characteristic inherent in a connected arms swing. This is why I respectfully totally disagree with the guys saying a connected arms swing should be swing with a low and left intent. It will bend the path/baseline so much it's akin to an intentional out to in path.

Doing it consistently is another matter though...and IMHO Hogan's way is way different than Hardy's...

[ray ray]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348876494' post='5714361']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1348874305' post='5714161']
I thought everyone realized that 1 plane vs 2 plane swings were a fallacy. Come on it's 2012.
[/quote]

Just simple vernacular introduced by Jim Hardy to explain two very different ways to swing the club. Nothing wrong with that. Almost no "1-planer" swings without a plane shift, but believe it or not, zero plane shift swingers do exist. iteach had a student with a zero shift swing. I saw the video of it.
[/quote]


i saw that video and he had a shift. there is no human without a plane shift from the shaft position at address, as soon as the arms raise there is a plane shift and the club is moving in 3d there are all kinds of shifts going on.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348888688' post='5715425']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1348843718' post='5710987']
I understand.

My point is that the phrase "low and left" is not an absolute phrase, but is in COMPARISON to the release of the club in a 2-plane swing. So unless you look at BOTH kinds of swings, you will not clearly understand what people are talking about when they say a one-plane swinger is "releasing the club low-and-left through impact".

It is just another way of saying a one-planer is swinging the club AROUND their body in close conjunction with their body rotation...while a two-planer is releasing the club PAST their body in a throwing motion.
[/quote]

Yes. But given the tendency of a one-plane or connected arms swing to go left earlier as compared to a 2-planer disconnected arms swing, Hogan's connected arms swing primary characteristic is that he made it as less left as possible so that the baseline would be as close to DTL as possible (same description as Hardy btw, his explanation why it will look like more like a cast in transition bec the clubhead is NEARER the baseline/targetline he says). That's the exact reason why a connected arms swing must have a relatively vertical shoulder turn, to offset the earlier left characteristic inherent in a connected arms swing. This is why I respectfully totally disagree with the guys saying a connected arms swing should be swing with a low and left intent. It will bend the path/baseline so much it's akin to an intentional out to in path.

Doing it consistently is another matter though...and IMHO Hogan's way is way different than Hardy's...
[/quote]

Low and left is simply a useful swing thought/intent for players trying to convert from a "two-plane" type of release to a connected "one plane" rotational type of release...especially if the player already strikes the ball with an inside-out path. Hands stay close to the belt line and follow the rotating core. The low and left intent combined with maintaining the upper left arm connection well through impact is very effective in getting the player to learn/feel this type of leveraged release IMHO. It is especially helpful to a player trying to eliminate a sweeping draw/hook ball flight, which is what Hogan was trying to get away from.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1348869492' post='5713813']
Glad to see you are so open minded.

If you think the only difference between a golf swing (one plane) and a baseball swing is that the baseball swing involves an object in the air, then that's where we have to agree to disagree. I think that inherently makes things different and I listed a few examples of why in post #71.
[/quote]

The issue is not "open-mindedness", it is[i][b] expertise[/b][/i].

...and the fact of the matter here is that you are talking to someone who is as much of an expert in the baseball swing as your friend is. I just chose not to pursue trying to make a living at it. I am also an expert in biomechanics....and have a fair amount of knowledge about the golf swing.

You are focusing on distinctions between these motions that don't amount to a siginificant biomechanical difference. As I said in my first post, the human body only has a limited number of ways of propelling an object powerfully....which we then ADAPT to different activities (sports in this case). You want to focus on those minor activity specific difference, while I find it more instructive (and practical) to point to fundamental, core similarities.

The fact of the matter is that there are more significant biomechanical differences between one-plane golfswing and a two-plane golf swing than there are between a one-plane golf swing and a baseball swing.

Just as there are more significant biomechanical differences between a one-plane golf swing and a two-plane golf swing than there are between a two-plane golf swing and a baseball throw.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1348874305' post='5714161']
I thought everyone realized that 1 plane vs 2 plane swings were a fallacy. Come on it's 2012.
[/quote]

Not fallacies.

The fallacy is that they are the only two ways to swing a golf club.

But they DO represent fundamentally different ways to swing a golf club. They are different biomechanically, and draw their power sources from different muscle groups.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348888688' post='5715425']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1348843718' post='5710987']
I understand.

My point is that the phrase "low and left" is not an absolute phrase, but is in COMPARISON to the release of the club in a 2-plane swing. So unless you look at BOTH kinds of swings, you will not clearly understand what people are talking about when they say a one-plane swinger is "releasing the club low-and-left through impact".

It is just another way of saying a one-planer is swinging the club AROUND their body in close conjunction with their body rotation...while a two-planer is releasing the club PAST their body in a throwing motion.
[/quote]

Yes. But given the tendency of a one-plane or connected arms swing to go left earlier as compared to a 2-planer disconnected arms swing, Hogan's connected arms swing primary characteristic is that he made it as less left as possible so that the baseline would be as close to DTL as possible (same description as Hardy btw, his explanation why it will look like more like a cast in transition bec the clubhead is NEARER the baseline/targetline he says). That's the exact reason why a connected arms swing must have a relatively vertical shoulder turn, to offset the earlier left characteristic inherent in a connected arms swing. This is why I respectfully totally disagree with the guys saying a connected arms swing should be swing with a low and left intent. It will bend the path/baseline so much it's akin to an intentional out to in path.

Doing it consistently is another matter though...and IMHO Hogan's way is way different than Hardy's...
[/quote]

Sorry, but biomechanically you are off.

The anti-left aspects of Hogan's best swing have to do with the lack of ROTATION (relative to the clubpath) of the clubface through the impact zone. That is why I linked the pictures that I did....because they show how square his clubfaces is, and how there is no rotation of the forearms.

...and finally, the "low-and-left" moniker is COMPARATIVE...it is not absolute. It is to get the person to note that the arms are working AROUND the body, and in conjunction with the body rotation. Rather than up-and-down, and being supported by a body rotation that is working in an unrelated plane (Tom Watson).

[svsvincenzo]

Hogan ain't low and left. He is close to DTL and going high. All because of his unique pivot.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348924216' post='5716415']
Hogan ain't low and left. He is close to DTL and going high. All because of his unique pivot.
[/quote]

Sorry HG to destroy your world, but that's just so far from the truth. He went high for sure, but with the most left way he could, not via target line.

Low and left with all he got and that's why he finished so high. He never needed to balance those forces that DTL swingers need... because his great, but not unique pivot.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1348924721' post='5716443']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348924216' post='5716415']
Hogan ain't low and left. He is close to DTL and going high. All because of his unique pivot.
[/quote]

Sorry HG to destroy your world, but that's just so far from the truth. He went high for sure, but with the most left way he could, not via target line.

Low and left with all he got and that's why he finished so high. He never needed to balance those forces that DTL swingers need... because his great, but not unique pivot.
[/quote]

And can you enlighten us please on his not unique pivot?

[TeeAce]

Hogan ain't low and left. He is close to DTL and going high. All because of his unique pivot.

 

Sorry HG to destroy your world, but that's just so far from the truth. He went high for sure, but with the most left way he could, not via target line.

 

Low and left with all he got and that's why he finished so high. He never needed to balance those forces that DTL swingers need... because his great, but not unique pivot.

 

And can you enlighten us please on his not unique pivot?

 

I only point how wrong you were.

 

 

We all know you are in love with MORAD, but you have to realize some day that what you have been told just doesn't fit with reality in Hogans case. No steep shoulders, no DTL release, no rotation of the left forearm, rather using right arm to prevent that rotation

 

 

And really nothing special in his pivot. Just good balanced work what we all can see and all who understand biomechanics feels simple and obvious.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1348867686' post='5713703']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1348863044' post='5713363']
Kelly,

Here's the situation. Its the bottom of the ninth with 2 outs, with your teams fastest runners on 1st and 2nd. Youre down by 2 runs. The absolute best third baseman, shortstop, and left fielder are out there. There's a headwind blowing in that will surely keep the ball up in the air and short of the wall, so coach tells you best option is to hit a bullet into center or right field. The absolute WORST center fielder and right fielder are out there and you are licking your chops, as they have been burned twice today. The pitcher is known to be a low inside fastball guy.

You watched 2 fastballs whiz by you for strikes cause 3rd base coach told you to hold up and make him work, cause with a walk, Babe Ruth is on deck. He throws three more borderline inside pitches that are called "BALL.. insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!".

Soooooooo, it's now a full count. He rares back and unleashes all he has at you. What if its a low inside pitch?? How the heck do you hit it up the middle or to right field?????????
[/quote]

You either do one of two things:

1. You learn to swing "inside-out" so that you can still deliver the bat powerfully while allowing the hands and the bat head to lag behind the opening of your body....(which is as much a specialty "shot" in baseball as a knockdown is in golf)...or...

2. You back away from the plate, just enough to make sure that you can foul off any pitch on the outside corner...and then you just pull the trigger LATE on an inside pitch so that you can catch it when it is over the plate without allowing the pitcher to handcuff you.

Because it is the impact point that determines where the ball goes.
[/quote]

Great response! Thanks for your 20yrs of baseball experience.