Hogan had a baseball swing

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349187786' post='5737191']
Probably too tough for even the very cool 4D swing machine to separately trace through time the axial rotation of (1) the styloid process of the ulna and (2) the olecranon process of the lead arm... which might be quite revealing...

I suppose we'll each have to rely on our own 3D internal mental conceptions while looking at inferior substitutes, such as, for example, up the line swing vision slow motion footage of great ballstrikers with weakish left hand grips swinging in shirt sleeves. Maybe we can get just close enough to the data by focusing on the lead elbow and the glove hand logos, as we long for more precise information.
[/quote]

Yes it is too hard for that and have to be calculated other way when angles are known. That's why we used to have markers around the arm and at bicep and forearm to watch that relation change. If you watch carefully at Chapman, you will not see his forearm rotating relative to his upper arm. Look for example thumb and bicep line how it all rotates together as well his elbow. Just about 90 degrees between those two photos.

Drew, I honestly hope we can meet some day and I show it to you in reality. It's so easy to understand and as I said, during the years not even one disagreement IRL about that... and I have met really critical people so many times.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349188493' post='5737247']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1349159519' post='5735949']
BTW, how about comment for those Hogan "hands out" things? Seems really obvious for me
[/quote]

It's a fair point and I need to REALLY think on this some more for my own internal conception of what Hogan did. I do in fact see some "hands out" toward the target line... but the timing of when that occurs is not easily comprehended by looking at stills or by film that is showing things only from one angle... so in fairness to a fair point, I will keep looking at and studying that.
[/quote]

Cant put the video with graphs here, but look at those graphs I posted and watch this. Not enough frames, but well enough to see the thing IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vPtIUBpxWk

[doram101]

I dont see anything much in norens swing that is Hogan

[doram101]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuyhxCJf4Pg

Hogan hitting a pitch , more arms less pivot / more in flexion effects the look of the arms

[TeeAce]

[quote name='doram101' timestamp='1349189422' post='5737361']
I dont see anything much in norens swing that is Hogan
[/quote]

You should have more their pictures side by side. The hand path is very similar, body action is very different and as we can see Alex couldn't at that time keep his right elbow in long enough. I don't know if he have had some progress at that part.

[drewspin]

Tee - do you have a video from the caddy view or up the line or front quarter view of Noren from the same time period? I'd like to get a sense of his left hand grip.

In the mean while, perhaps Anthony or someone kind will take the Chapman iron swing vision video and trace the logo on his glove and the bony point of his left elbow from the point the shadow moves in front of his right leg.. .

(notice how his shadow on the ground is almost straight behind him? So the shadow cast on his pants as his hands move in front of his right leg will give us a pretty good objective view to reorient our perspective of where his hands are in space in relation to his body if we were looking from the caddy view)

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1349190170' post='5737445']
Tee - do you have a video from the caddy view or up the line or front quarter view of Noren from the same time period? I'd like to get a sense of his left hand grip.


[/quote]

Got it from 8 different angles but have to find it from system. Sorry but no time for that for the moment.

Call me by skype next week and I show it to you privately

[ej002]

I thought this was a thread about baseball?

There are also two differnt kinds of baseball swings, casters (flippers) and hands going left guys. The hands going left guys are the best hitters. Look at Bonds and Manny for left swingers.


[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e7p6nvA6po[/media]

And the master himself

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4K7YWSQqJ8[/media]


There are a couple outside pitches in this one where the extension gets a little early, but at the 36 second mark and after you see some really nice hands going left swings. You could never beat this guy on the inside part of the plate. Their spine tilt is like 30* If it was more upright, it would look very much like Hogan. This is been discussed hundred of times on this forum.

Here is a lesson 'staying inside the ball' - aka keeping the hands inside

[ej002]

here is the hands inside video

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJxkvsLXs2Q&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJxkvsLXs2Q&feature=related[/url]

[ej002]

I know a AAA retired guy. He has the fasted body motion I have ever seen in my life. He is a natural fader of the fall, hands just so sooo far left its crazy. If he coiled deeper and got on a lower plane he would be what long drive guys are made of.

I did have to chuckle when I see all these foreigners like H101 arguing about baseball swings, get real. If you can't see the the similarities to Hogan you need to wash your winshields.

[drewspin]

Thanks, EJ! Much appreciated! I am (asst) coaching my 6 and 8 year olds in little league and we've been doing a lot of Ted Williams style rotational baseball hitting, so the insider bat is very very interesting... I am going to get them one right now.

[ej002]

I dont know if you need that thing, the idea is nothing new. I know there used to be a jacket that looked like the kvest that kept the arms tight to the torso, also we used to just stand close to a fence - and face the fence and swing w/o hitting the fence or just barely tipping the top of the bat - prevented casting.

[hoganfan924]

One thing I've experimented with over the last year that I've written about here before is a very rapid left scapula retraction in the downswing. I'd observed how quickly Hogan's shoulders opened between P6 and P8 and was playing around trying to see if I could do it without hitting a wipe. Driving the right shoulder faster didn't do it (just seemed to "bunch up" my shoulders), so I tried opening the left shoulder faster. When I was on trackman last year, it was the one single thing that gave me the greatest clubhead speed boost of everything that I tried. Went from 156 mph ballspeed to 161 on the first swing I tried it. I'd never hit >160 before that swing - Ever, over 2 months of Trackman sessions. Got up to 164 mph which is by far the fastest ballspeed I've ever hit. The other thing I noticed is that it helped to maintain a stable clubface and it was virtually impossible to hook the ball. If you want to prevent a shut faced hook, this move is a good one.

What I still need to do more experimenting with is the timing of that move. So far, it seems that I have to preserve the shoulders being closed in the early downswing, and then really start powering this move at about P5.5. Really have to transition properly to use this power boost, so I'd consider it an advanced move that would be disastrous for the typical OTT chop. Seems to be really effective with my new driver (Nike VR_S with Oban devotion shaft). Will experiment more tonight.

Just want to add that it's definitely a scapula retraction, not just pulling the whole left shoulder open. I suppose this is an example of increasing "parametric acceleration" per Miura's research paper (centripetal acceleration really). If you only drive the right shoulder and the left is passive the shoulders get closer together (in front of the body) which is that feeling of them getting bunched up. With this left scapula retraction move, they get closer behind the body. Kind of like doing a left arm only bent over dumbell row and the chest feels like it's expanding.

[dairic]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349193528' post='5737781']
One thing I've experimented with over the last year that I've written about here before is a very rapid left scapula retraction in the downswing. I'd observed how quickly Hogan's shoulders opened between P6 and P8 and was playing around trying to see if I could do it without hitting a wipe. Driving the right shoulder faster didn't do it (just seemed to "bunch up" my shoulders), so I tried opening the left shoulder faster. When I was on trackman last year, it was the one single thing that gave me the greatest clubhead speed boost of everything that I tried. Went from 156 mph ballspeed to 161 on the first swing I tried it. I'd never hit >160 before that swing - Ever, over 2 months of Trackman sessions. Got up to 164 mph which is by far the fastest ballspeed I've ever hit. The other thing I noticed is that it helped to maintain a stable clubface and it was virtually impossible to hook the ball. If you want to prevent a shut faced hook, this move is a good one.

What I still need to do more experimenting with is the timing of that move. So far, it seems that I have to preserve the shoulders being closed in the early downswing, and then really start powering this move at about P5.5. Really have to transition properly to use this power boost, so I'd consider it an advanced move that would be disastrous for the typical OTT chop. Seems to be really effective with my new driver (Nike VR_S with Oban devotion shaft). Will experiment more tonight.
[/quote]

Way to break the 160 barrier!!

I find that without the move your describing I can't shallow the club at transition as much as I would like. That aggressive shoulder rotation is important to create the physics which undoes the range of motion in the downswing created by swallowing the club. The more aggressive the shoulder turn the shallower you can go. JMO

Let 'er rip man!!

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1349194539' post='5737883']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349193528' post='5737781']
One thing I've experimented with over the last year that I've written about here before is a very rapid left scapula retraction in the downswing. I'd observed how quickly Hogan's shoulders opened between P6 and P8 and was playing around trying to see if I could do it without hitting a wipe. Driving the right shoulder faster didn't do it (just seemed to "bunch up" my shoulders), so I tried opening the left shoulder faster. When I was on trackman last year, it was the one single thing that gave me the greatest clubhead speed boost of everything that I tried. Went from 156 mph ballspeed to 161 on the first swing I tried it. I'd never hit >160 before that swing - Ever, over 2 months of Trackman sessions. Got up to 164 mph which is by far the fastest ballspeed I've ever hit. The other thing I noticed is that it helped to maintain a stable clubface and it was virtually impossible to hook the ball. If you want to prevent a shut faced hook, this move is a good one.

What I still need to do more experimenting with is the timing of that move. So far, it seems that I have to preserve the shoulders being closed in the early downswing, and then really start powering this move at about P5.5. Really have to transition properly to use this power boost, so I'd consider it an advanced move that would be disastrous for the typical OTT chop. Seems to be really effective with my new driver (Nike VR_S with Oban devotion shaft). Will experiment more tonight.
[/quote]

Way to break the 160 barrier!!

I find that without the move your describing I can't shallow the club at transition as much as I would like. That aggressive shoulder rotation is important to create the physics which undoes the range of motion in the downswing created by swallowing the club. The more aggressive the shoulder turn the shallower you can go. JMO

Let 'er rip man!!
[/quote]

Thanks! Not too bad for a 5'6" 48 year old that hasn't lifted weights in 7 years. lol

Honestly though, I probably am not getting close to those speeds on the course as that was more of a maxed out trackman session where I was trying to hit it as hard as possible and see where I could pick up a little speed. I'd been writing about how fast Hogan's shoulders opened between P7 and P8 for a long time but hadn't really tried to do it myself or figured out how to do it. Was quite eye opening.

[ej002]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349193528' post='5737781']
One thing I've experimented with over the last year that I've written about here before is a very rapid left scapula retraction in the downswing. I'd observed how quickly Hogan's shoulders opened between P6 and P8 and was playing around trying to see if I could do it without hitting a wipe. Driving the right shoulder faster didn't do it (just seemed to "bunch up" my shoulders), so I tried opening the left shoulder faster. When I was on trackman last year, it was the one single thing that gave me the greatest clubhead speed boost of everything that I tried. Went from 156 mph ballspeed to 161 on the first swing I tried it. I'd never hit >160 before that swing - Ever, over 2 months of Trackman sessions. Got up to 164 mph which is by far the fastest ballspeed I've ever hit. The other thing I noticed is that it helped to maintain a stable clubface and it was virtually impossible to hook the ball. If you want to prevent a shut faced hook, this move is a good one.

What I still need to do more experimenting with is the timing of that move. So far, it seems that I have to preserve the shoulders being closed in the early downswing, and then really start powering this move at about P5.5. Really have to transition properly to use this power boost, so I'd consider it an advanced move that would be disastrous for the typical OTT chop. Seems to be really effective with my new driver (Nike VR_S with Oban devotion shaft). Will experiment more tonight.

Just want to add that it's definitely a scapula retraction, not just pulling the whole left shoulder open. I suppose this is an example of increasing "parametric acceleration" per Miura's research paper (centripetal acceleration really). If you only drive the right shoulder and the left is passive the shoulders get closer together (in front of the body) which is that feeling of them getting bunched up. With this left scapula retraction move, they get closer behind the body. Kind of like doing a left arm only bent over dumbell row and the chest feels like it's expanding.
[/quote]


When you do this are you pulling the handle with the left arm? Or are you supporing the shaft and pushing it through? Do you think it matters?

[hoganfan924]

EJ,

Still feeling good lag pressure in the right index finger but I think that's a result of the pull not of a push. Arm swing needs to be compact and in synch. Very key, IMO.

[TeeAce]

Hoganfan, great post and that move hasn't been talked a lot. If I have learned 10 things from Kelvin Miyahira, that was one I could give back.

When we started with 4DSwing we tried to find the mistake as it showed shoulders didn't move at the same speed. It was not a mistake as there is small peaks in both of them just because of that. And that's also making about 30% of that deltoid rotation I have been talking about

[hoganfan924]

It's such a shame that when I was growing up, our "coaches" taught "keep the shoulders closed and crossover release" in baseball. Turned us all into slap hitters with no power. It wasn't until I became a golfer in my early 20's that I developed any power with a bat in my hands because I'd used my knowledge of golf to learn to use my body/core to swing a bat.

[dairic]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349195611' post='5737995']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1349194539' post='5737883']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349193528' post='5737781']
One thing I've experimented with over the last year that I've written about here before is a very rapid left scapula retraction in the downswing. I'd observed how quickly Hogan's shoulders opened between P6 and P8 and was playing around trying to see if I could do it without hitting a wipe. Driving the right shoulder faster didn't do it (just seemed to "bunch up" my shoulders), so I tried opening the left shoulder faster. When I was on trackman last year, it was the one single thing that gave me the greatest clubhead speed boost of everything that I tried. Went from 156 mph ballspeed to 161 on the first swing I tried it. I'd never hit >160 before that swing - Ever, over 2 months of Trackman sessions. Got up to 164 mph which is by far the fastest ballspeed I've ever hit. The other thing I noticed is that it helped to maintain a stable clubface and it was virtually impossible to hook the ball. If you want to prevent a shut faced hook, this move is a good one.

What I still need to do more experimenting with is the timing of that move. So far, it seems that I have to preserve the shoulders being closed in the early downswing, and then really start powering this move at about P5.5. Really have to transition properly to use this power boost, so I'd consider it an advanced move that would be disastrous for the typical OTT chop. Seems to be really effective with my new driver (Nike VR_S with Oban devotion shaft). Will experiment more tonight.
[/quote]

Way to break the 160 barrier!!

I find that without the move your describing I can't shallow the club at transition as much as I would like. That aggressive shoulder rotation is important to create the physics which undoes the range of motion in the downswing created by swallowing the club. The more aggressive the shoulder turn the shallower you can go. JMO

Let 'er rip man!!
[/quote]

Thanks! Not too bad for a 5'6" 48 year old that hasn't lifted weights in 7 years. lol

Honestly though, I probably am not getting close to those speeds on the course as that was more of a maxed out trackman session where I was trying to hit it as hard as possible and see where I could pick up a little speed. I'd been writing about how fast Hogan's shoulders opened between P7 and P8 for a long time but hadn't really tried to do it myself or figured out how to do it. Was quite eye opening.
[/quote]

I have a question for you if you don't mind because I know you're a slicefixer guy. I find that the more aggressive the shoulder turn the weaker I need to make my grip. At this point the thumb on my lead hand is perfectly in line with the top of the shaft. Encyclopedia T says that the more aggressive the pivot the stronger the grip should be. I've always been mystified by this, so I'm curious to know if you have any insights to share with respect to grip pivot relationship.

Sorry to detract from the baseball topic;)

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349193528' post='5737781']
One thing I've experimented with over the last year that I've written about here before is a very rapid left scapula retraction in the downswing. I'd observed how quickly Hogan's shoulders opened between P6 and P8 and was playing around trying to see if I could do it without hitting a wipe. Driving the right shoulder faster didn't do it (just seemed to "bunch up" my shoulders), so I tried opening the left shoulder faster. When I was on trackman last year, it was the one single thing that gave me the greatest clubhead speed boost of everything that I tried. Went from 156 mph ballspeed to 161 on the first swing I tried it. I'd never hit >160 before that swing - Ever, over 2 months of Trackman sessions. Got up to 164 mph which is by far the fastest ballspeed I've ever hit. The other thing I noticed is that it helped to maintain a stable clubface and it was virtually impossible to hook the ball. If you want to prevent a shut faced hook, this move is a good one.

What I still need to do more experimenting with is the timing of that move. So far, it seems that I have to preserve the shoulders being closed in the early downswing, and then really start powering this move at about P5.5. Really have to transition properly to use this power boost, so I'd consider it an advanced move that would be disastrous for the typical OTT chop. Seems to be really effective with my new driver (Nike VR_S with Oban devotion shaft). Will experiment more tonight.

Just want to add that it's definitely a scapula retraction, not just pulling the whole left shoulder open. I suppose this is an example of increasing "parametric acceleration" per Miura's research paper (centripetal acceleration really). If you only drive the right shoulder and the left is passive the shoulders get closer together (in front of the body) which is that feeling of them getting bunched up. With this left scapula retraction move, they get closer behind the body. Kind of like doing a left arm only bent over dumbell row and the chest feels like it's expanding.
[/quote]

Very interesting. I remember you had mentioned this. Kelvin disagrees I believe in one of his articles. For one session I was trying to keep the left scapula protracted into impact for as long as possible, but I think it naturally wants to retract, especially as the right scapula protracts. I guess I'm saying what your describing almost seems like an autmatic move to me if you to the right things into p6 and if the right protracts. Almost like the body naturally wants to avoid bunching up the shoulders. You agree?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1349197762' post='5738243']


Very interesting. I remember you had mentioned this. Kelvin disagrees I believe in one of his articles. For one session I was trying to keep the left scapula protracted into impact for as long as possible, but I think it naturally wants to retract, especially as the right scapula protracts. I guess I'm saying what your describing almost seems like an autmatic move to me if you to the right things into p6 and if the right protracts. Almost like the body naturally wants to avoid bunching up the shoulders. You agree?
[/quote]

It was the thing Kelvin changed in one of his article maybe one or two days after it came out.

[tylerdurden]

I thought I read it in there recently to keep it protracted as long as possible. Just checked, here it is:

[b]Left Scapula Movement[/b]
The left scapula movement is pretty simple. It is protracted on the backswing and stays protracted on the downswing until well after impact. There is an increase in the amount of protraction during the downswing as the spine muscles rotate the spine away from the scapula.

[url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-03-whats-a-shoulder-turn-part-3.html"]http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-03-whats-a-shoulder-turn-part-3.html[/url]

I'm not saying Kelvin is right or wrong. I don't know at this point but I do think it's important.

[tylerdurden]

Interestingly, he used Fowler and Donald to illustrate this point lol.

[hoganfan924]

Dairic,

It depends. The basic reason for what Geoff wrote in the ET about grip strength has to do with the fact that guys who hang on their right side and stall their pivot allow their hands to "crossover" early and hence a strong grip for them would result in a shut faced pull hook. And guys that get into their left leg and maintain pivot thrust through impact have a slow rate of closure and can use a stronger grip (think Zack Johnson or David Duval).

Someone could probably write a whole PHD dissertation on it. lol I'll try to do a cliffnotes version. Duval is an example of a guy with a fantastic pivot (one of the best ever, IMO) that gets very open at impact yet has an extremely strong grip. His swing fits in really well to this thread because it's so baseball like (almost palm up/palm down)

The pivot influences much more than just the openness of the shoulders. You can have a powerful pivot and the shoulders only open 10-15 deg. at impact. IMO, the squaring up of the clubface is a physics, geometry and anatomy equation. The openness of the shoulders at impact (and the relationship of the arms to shoulders) is one geometry part and the axial torque about the left arm created by a shallow angle of attack is one physics part (per Sasho McKenzie). The handpath is a combination of both physics and geometry. The individual's anatomy plays into it as well. Tim Clark and his funky elbow problem is an outlier example. Where your axis of rotation is relative to the ball is also part of the geometry equation. Where your hands are relative to your body at impact is a factor. Are the hands in front of the left thigh or over your zipper? So the total equation for "clubface squareness at impact" is extremely complex. This is why Slicefixer has some guys with barely a 2 knuckle and some with a 4 knuckle grip - huge difference.

For example - Same player [b][i]with all else being the same [/i][/b](which it never is, so this is a highly simplified explanation): If you have a swing where the shoulders are completely parallel to the target line at impact your grip will have to be much stronger than if you're 40 deg. open at impact. That's purely the geometry part. But the physics of clubhead induced torque on the left arm greatly complicates things and can completely flip the open shoulders =weak grip, closed=strong paradigm.

Some examples:

Come in shallow with the clubhead on elbow plane = lots of axial torque. Have the shoulders 40 deg. open at impact. That combo will require a weakish grip.

Same thing but shoulders 20 deg. open at impact = more neutral grip.

Come in steep with the clubhead (say just above turned shoulder plane) = negative axial torque which opens the clubface. Typical OTT slicer's move. Even if he get's the shoulders very open, he'll still need a strong grip to overcome that negative torque.

Slicefixer also teaches what most would consider to be a weak right hand grip. That has a huge influence on things. Keeps the right hand from taking over and shutting the face down.

Every player needs to find their own perfect grip strength. No 'one size fits all' as the equation is too complex.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1349199668' post='5738457']
I thought I read it in there recently to keep it protracted as long as possible. Just checked, here it is:

[b]Left Scapula Movement[/b]
The left scapula movement is pretty simple. It is protracted on the backswing and stays protracted on the downswing until well after impact. There is an increase in the amount of protraction during the downswing as the spine muscles rotate the spine away from the scapula.

[url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-03-whats-a-shoulder-turn-part-3.html"]http://www.aroundhaw...urn-part-3.html[/url]

I'm not saying Kelvin is right or wrong. I don't know at this point but I do think it's important.
[/quote]

Like Rasheed Wallace used to say "the ball don't lie!" And trackman wasn't lying about my ballspeeds either. It was a pretty dramatic jump in speed. Every other thing I tried (speeding up my lower body, speeding up my hands, speeding up my right shoulder) only produced maybe 1-2 mph more ballspeed over my stock swing. I expected more from these things and was pretty disappointed in the results. Then I thought about how fast Hogan whipped that left shoulder open and gave it a go. Boom - 5 mph more ballspeed on average. Bonus - straighter ballflight.

[hoganfan924]

About as baseball like as a great golf swing can get, IMO:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQyGT7Z_hDo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQyGT7Z_hDo[/url]

[tylerdurden]

Thanks for dropping knowledge HF.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1349199668' post='5738457']
I thought I read it in there recently to keep it protracted as long as possible. Just checked, here it is:

[b]Left Scapula Movement[/b]
The left scapula movement is pretty simple. It is protracted on the backswing and stays protracted on the downswing until well after impact. There is an increase in the amount of protraction during the downswing as the spine muscles rotate the spine away from the scapula.

[url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-03-whats-a-shoulder-turn-part-3.html"]http://www.aroundhaw...urn-part-3.html[/url]

I'm not saying Kelvin is right or wrong. I don't know at this point but I do think it's important.
[/quote]

[b]Lag Release Micro Move #2 – Left Shoulder Retraction[/b]


[color=#333333][size=3][left]Previously, I did not think this movement should exist because I could not see the scapula retracting from back views. But upon further review from the front, this micro move or muscle contraction is definitely at work prior to impact. It can start applying force and move toward retraction but not reveal itself from the back view until far later when the scapula is fully retracted. This movement is seen as the distance between the left shoulder and the chin grows farther apart and the left shoulder joint appears to pull up and back away from the ball.[/left][/size][/color]

[color=#333333][size=3][left]http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-12-pga-tour-clubhead-lag-part-3-the-release.html[/left][/size][/color]

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1349197762' post='5738243']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1349193528' post='5737781']
One thing I've experimented with over the last year that I've written about here before is a very rapid left scapula retraction in the downswing. I'd observed how quickly Hogan's shoulders opened between P6 and P8 and was playing around trying to see if I could do it without hitting a wipe. Driving the right shoulder faster didn't do it (just seemed to "bunch up" my shoulders), so I tried opening the left shoulder faster. When I was on trackman last year, it was the one single thing that gave me the greatest clubhead speed boost of everything that I tried. Went from 156 mph ballspeed to 161 on the first swing I tried it. I'd never hit >160 before that swing - Ever, over 2 months of Trackman sessions. Got up to 164 mph which is by far the fastest ballspeed I've ever hit. The other thing I noticed is that it helped to maintain a stable clubface and it was virtually impossible to hook the ball. If you want to prevent a shut faced hook, this move is a good one.

What I still need to do more experimenting with is the timing of that move. So far, it seems that I have to preserve the shoulders being closed in the early downswing, and then really start powering this move at about P5.5. Really have to transition properly to use this power boost, so I'd consider it an advanced move that would be disastrous for the typical OTT chop. Seems to be really effective with my new driver (Nike VR_S with Oban devotion shaft). Will experiment more tonight.

Just want to add that it's definitely a scapula retraction, not just pulling the whole left shoulder open. I suppose this is an example of increasing "parametric acceleration" per Miura's research paper (centripetal acceleration really). If you only drive the right shoulder and the left is passive the shoulders get closer together (in front of the body) which is that feeling of them getting bunched up. With this left scapula retraction move, they get closer behind the body. Kind of like doing a left arm only bent over dumbell row and the chest feels like it's expanding.
[/quote]

Very interesting. I remember you had mentioned this. Kelvin disagrees I believe in one of his articles. For one session I was trying to keep the left scapula protracted into impact for as long as possible, but I think it naturally wants to retract, especially as the right scapula protracts. I guess I'm saying what your describing almost seems like an autmatic move to me if you to the right things into p6 and if the right protracts. Almost like the body naturally wants to avoid bunching up the shoulders. [b]You agree[/b]?
[/quote]

No, not "natural" for me anyway. Driving the right shoulder with an inert left (as TGM calls for) just bunches up my shoulders. However, as a H.S. kid I was a swimmer and we did tons of shoulder and scapula stretching. At 17 I could cross over my arms behind me at shoulder height whereas my elbows would cross over (with someone pulling them). I still have a lot of flexibility there even at 48 and with numerous shoulder injuries. My swing has gotten better as I've lost flexibility. lol