Tobacco Road Golf Club- Sanford, NC

[Johnny Biarritz]

Mike Strantz is one of the most original designers of the past 25 years or so. In many ways, it is that originality that keeps him from being recognized in the same light as designers like Pete Dye and Tom Doak. Strantz was at his wildest and most original here. And sadly, that might have hurt the course. This course has a large number of blind or mostly blind shots, as many as 9 depending on how one counts. This has led many to characterize the course as unsafe, and it some ways, it may be. But that notwithstanding, the course is fantastic. Strategic and/or heroic options exist on nearly every hole. But too often people look at this course as something of a freak show. That is sad. While this course is not a top 100 design it is certainly in the upper crust of public courses and one that people should certainly attempt to see.

 

Full Review, including photo tour, here:

http://affordablegolfdesign.blogspot.com/2012/11/tobacco-road-golf-course-sanford-nc.html

[thejuice]

Good review Johnny! I am a fan of your reviews!

[Johnny Biarritz]

[quote name='thejuice' timestamp='1353042543' post='5941719']
Good review Johnny! I am a fan of your reviews!
[/quote]

Thanks Juice. I have many more to come. If you see a course listed on my [url="http://affordablegolfdesign.blogspot.com/p/golf-course-ranking.html"]Course Ranking[/url] page and you want a more detailed review, let me know. If I have pictures, or can find them and get permission to use them, I will put something together.

[avgjoe]

def can be visually intimidating, but imo an easy course if you know where to hit it (and that is sometimes the problem)

[KDMullins]

Great review and pics! Takes me back. Easily one of my top 10 favorite courses. Just a blast to play.

[Johnny Biarritz]

Avg- yes, it can be easy for a better player. I played a CGA event there some years ago and 67 won. So it's rather easy, or can be, for straight hitting, confident players. For others, however, scores can get out of hand. I seem to recall some single digit handicappers not breaking 100 in that same event.

KD- thanks for the compliment.

[TNReb]

I lived in the Triangle for about 5 years. I was very excited to finally play Tobacco Road about two years ago.

While I wasn't 100% disappointed, I found the course to be very overrated. Some of the blind shots were just silly - almost gimmicky. There are plenty courses in the area that are much better.

[Johnny Biarritz]

[quote name='TNReb' timestamp='1353903936' post='5979025']
I lived in the Triangle for about 5 years. I was very excited to finally play Tobacco Road about two years ago.

While I wasn't 100% disappointed, I found the course to be very overrated. Some of the blind shots were just silly - almost gimmicky. There are plenty courses in the area that are much better.
[/quote]

Well, while I [i]disagree[/i] with your opinion of the course, I can't really [i]argue[/i] with it. Tobacco Road simply is not a course for everyone. Anytime someone asks me about the course, I tell them that they will either love it or hate it. I don't know anyone who has played Tobacco Road and walked off the course saying "yeah, that was ok." I have known guys who spoke praises about it; some who put TR at #2 in the entire NC Sandhills behind only Pinehurst #2. And I've known guys who refuse to go back, saying it's trash. Frankly, I can't argue with either of them, though I don't agree with either of them.

[Hstead]

I really enjoyed it. I has been 15 years since I played it. At the time I was a 4 hc and I played the tips and shot 78 and the wind was blowing like hell. I remember a lot of blind shots and I remember one tee shot that was a really long tight shoot to hit out of on the back nine somewhere that was intimidating. I played conservative and hit at the targets etc and didn't putt real well that day. The way the wind blew, I felt like my 78 wasn't that bad. I remember a few guys I worked with saying, "how can you be a 4 hc you shot 78". Hell, I felt pretty good about 6 over in that wind. These morons have no clue how the hc system works.

67 in a tournament would be damn good there I would think. I only played it once and it was windy but I didn't see it as "easy".

[Johnny Biarritz]

Hstead- 78 out there probably lowered your handicap, especially if you played the back tees.

Yeah, 67 won that year, I think 66 has won it before. Course record out there is probably 62. And just for thought, in 2008 they had a four-ball event out there, winners shot 58 gross.

[TNReb]

[quote name='Johnny Biarritz' timestamp='1353995029' post='5983505']
Well, while I [i]disagree[/i] with your opinion of the course, I can't really [i]argue[/i] with it. Tobacco Road simply is not a course for everyone. Anytime someone asks me about the course, I tell them that they will either love it or hate it. .... And I've known guys who refuse to go back, saying it's trash. Frankly, I can't argue with either of them, though I don't agree with either of them.
[/quote]

I think I am more on the fence... sorry if my original post made it sound like I [i]hated[/i] it. I would recommend anyone try it [i]if [/i]they can find a discounted greens fee. I didn't think it was a [i]bad[/i] course by any means, but it wasn't the sort of championship caliber thing I was expecting.

[MarkCPA]

Obvioius, as the avatar shows I'm a big fan of the course. I fell in love with it right after the first round and I never go to the Sand Hills / Pinehurst area with playing it twice on the trip. It's unique, visually challenging, and you'll hit every club in the bag in spite of its length. The reviewer is right as no course I'm aware of divides otherwise agreeable golfers quicker or more sharply than Tobacco Road. One thing is for sure - unless you've played something else that Mike Strantz built, you'll leave Tobacco Road saying you've never, ever seen anything like that.

[dmonaco19]

Tobacco Road is a great track, I actually like tot hill farm even better. People always say you are going to like his designs or not, so far I like em!

[Johnny Biarritz]

Mark- It seems to be a common theme of Strantz courses that they sharply divide golfers. I knew a guy who hated Tot Hill Farm just as much as he hated Tobacco Road. Strantz built courses that really broke the mold as far as how they were shaped and how the looked. The course certainly isn't for everyone, but I have a feeling they don't try to be.

Reb- I didn't think you hated the course, your disappointment certainly wasn't hidden. And yes, I don't think it is worth the peak rates they charge (about $125) but it's worth the money any other time of the year. I remember seeing magazine ads for as little as $25 off-season though.

[TNReb]

I played it in the off season and got a fair rate. I think I had just heard everyone hype it up so much, I was expecting it to blow me away. I just don't care for holes where a 20ft flag pole is necessary.

I really wish I'd been able to play Tot Hill Farm, but I never got around to it. My normal playing partner loved it, and we generally have the same taste in courses.

I guess my reviews probably aren't real fair... I don't really care for the sand hills courses in general. Whispering Pines is one a lot of people loved, but I didn't like it at all.

Man.. I'm sounding like a grump!!

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

Looks hard, plays easy, the scale of some of the contours is beyond the norm for sure. I love playing there, although I've only done so three times.

[artist08]

I played there from the back tees and shot 76 and was pretty happy about it. I hit some great shots and ended up in high grass or blocked out (#1, 9). If I wasn't paired up with people that had played the course before I probably would've shot 90. I had to ask where to hit my tee shot on almost EVERY hole!

I would go back, though.

[MarkCPA]

Man alive! Reading this thread really makes me want to go back and soon. I love the 2nd shot on the par 5, no. 11 over the waste area. I saw another poster on this forum eagle the par 5, no. 13 twice in the same day.

[SheriffBooth]

With a course map Tobacco Road is not punishing unless you start trying to bite off more than you ought to. Trying to overpower it is what balloons your score. Visually stimulating for sure and a worthwhile play on any trip to the Pinehurst area.

[Johnny Biarritz]

Sherrif- I wish that were true. These 20+ handicap players afen't trying to bite, they're trying to survive. Start hitting balls off line and this place gets really difficult. Being over-aggressive is not the problem for most golfers.

[golfnhack]

I am personally not a fan of courses with so many blind shots. I played a track in MD that was ranked #5 in the state recently. Whiskey Creek. Same issue. I think I counted 11 blind approaches / tee shots (or something like that).

[jastac]

[quote name='Fourmyle of Ceres' timestamp='1354051943' post='5986107']
Looks hard, plays easy
[/quote]

The above is Very true. I've played it 4 times, 82 the first time around and broke 80 every round after. I think the 150 slope is not really true. The course is very short and if you play it the way it's designed the landing areas are very generous. The people who get in trouble are the ones who try to over power it and miss the greens in the wrong places. The best part about TR is the BBQ sandwich in the club house IMO.

[Johnny Biarritz]

The slope is so high because the Bogey Rating is near 100 strokes. The USGA defined bogey golfer, playing from the back tees probably, can't reach the fairway on 2, 16, and 18, probably can't reach 9 in 2 shots, and the penal nature of the hazards and rough areas will run the difficulty way up. The slope is correct, just requires an understanding of the system to know why.

[SheriffBooth]

[quote name='Johnny Biarritz' timestamp='1354203601' post='5994765']
Sherrif- I wish that were true. These 20+ handicap players afen't trying to bite, they're trying to survive. Start hitting balls off line and this place gets really difficult. Being over-aggressive is not the problem for most golfers.
[/quote]

You have to know where to hit it, and you have to be able to hit it there with reasonable accuracy. Stranz designs all look great, but they are nowhere near as demanding as similar length Pete Dye courses - Harbour Town comes to mind; you can hit every fairway there and still be closed out on all your approach shots. Tobacco Road is much friendlier in this regard.

But I agree with you that it would not be fun to spend a lot of time at Tobacco Road outside of the fairway or first cut of rough and it's probably more penal outside of the first cut than a lot of places.

[shaggy24]

I'm a 2 handicap and love Tobacco and Tot Hill Farm in Asheboro. You can't beat Tot Hill for $50.
I can see why people don't like it, it's because you can't be too crooked with your tee shots. I think they both are courses you can go low
If you hit it in the fairway.

[Poser]

[quote name='MarkCPA' timestamp='1354201228' post='5994601']
Man alive! Reading this thread really makes me want to go back and soon. I love the 2nd shot on the par 5, no. 11 over the waste area. I saw another poster on this forum eagle the par 5, no. 13 twice in the same day.
[/quote]

Awesome hole. I love playing that course and play it a few times a year. That hole especially is good if you actually hit into the waste area you can have a short iron into the green. I've shot some of my lowest rounds there because all the Par5s are reachable and there is the driveable par4 5th hole.

[jastac]

[quote name='Johnny Biarritz' timestamp='1354220605' post='5996323']
The slope is so high because the Bogey Rating is near 100 strokes. The USGA defined bogey golfer, playing from the back tees probably, can't reach the fairway on 2, 16, and 18, probably can't reach 9 in 2 shots, and the penal nature of the hazards and rough areas will run the difficulty way up. The slope is correct, just requires an understanding of the system to know why.
[/quote]
The above may be true but I've played Oakmont CC that has a rate/slope of 74/134 (blue tees) which is half a shot harder rating and has a way easier slope on paper than TRs 73.2/150 (tips), both with a par of 71 and similar yardage. As a 5hcp It would be a career day breaking 80 at oakmont and I'm gonna be poed if I don't at TR when I pay it again. Just Sayn something doesn't add up w there #s. I might agree if they stretched out TR to 7000 yds and made all their short par 3s over 185 yds

[Johnny Biarritz]

Jastac- Here is what you are missing.

Oakmont from the Blue tees: Course rating- 74.0, Bogey rating- 98.9

Tobacco Road from the Ripper tees: Course rating- 71.7, Bogey rating- 98.4 (these numbers from the USGA Course rating Database, as are Oakmont's)

So, here is what those numbers say. Oakmont is significantly more difficult for the scratch player and slightly more difficult for the bogey player. Not that we didn't know that all ready. The slope rating is a ratio of those two numbers. So because Tobacco Road is EASIER for the scratch player, the slope is higher. Simple, ehh?

And yeah, as a 5 handicap, you'd have to "shoot your handicap" in order to break 80 at Oakmont, meaning shoot 5 strokes over the Course Rating. Shoot 5 over the course rating at Tobacco Road and you shoot 77...considering the 14th hole does not have it's 195 yard back tee anymore, probably a 76.

Again, slope is a measure of the difficulty difference between the Scratch Course Rating and Bogey Course Rating. Closer they are, lower the slope.