Spackler's Progress Thread (slicefixer guru's please feel free to comment)

[Hogan1975]

Good swing spackler.. Looking good

[TonyPags26]

I think sblack5 was the only one to mention this, however briefly, but I think you need to take a look at your footwork. IMO, part of your spinning out problem lies in the fact that your right foot pops up very early and in doing so, lets your hips spin out almost uncontrollably. I think you would benefit greatly from simply keeping that right foot planted until at least your hands reach hip high in your downswing. This would do a few things: 1. It will keep your hips in check throughout the downswing and keep you from spinning out. 2. It will help keep your right elbow from getting stuck behind your right hip as you release the club. 3. You will be able to move left off of your right instep, aiding in proper weight transfer and a more left-leg-stacked finish position. Watch a few Tiger videos, both DTL and FO, of him hitting wedges and mid irons, and you will get more of a sense of what Im talking about.

I like the stick in the belt loops drill. I think that will work wonders for your overswing btw

[Lefthook]

Do the chair drill, spacklersedge.

It will take you 3 steps in the right direction.

[SunkTheBirdie]

Spackler:
- make sure you are turning into a braced right leg, yours looks too straight.
- I'm not convinced at the end of the backswing your weight in in your right heel.
- to start the downswing, your left butt cheek needs to be working backwards to help you get ready to move your weight into your left foot (For me, I think of the hands working down and my left butt cheek going backwards as the left side of my body pulls the club from the top).

Read this thread: [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/817515-golf-instruction-creating-space-with-the-pivot-brady-riggs-rear-view/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...iggs-rear-view/[/url]
Watch the Hogan power move videos by Clement.

[russc1597187869]

Spinning and out of synch going down,but both these of problems are a result of major problems going back.To try to correct any problems going down at this point is a waste of time.

There are two large problems going back .The first is your lack of coil.The second is the way that you start your takeaway with your hands/forearms and wrists being active from the getgo,the opposite of a 1-piece swing.Since it is not easy to work on two problems at the same time,leave the second less important problem on the back burner.
Your lack of coil going back is a combination of 2 things ,your LARGE sway load at the hips and your loss of the brace of your right knee,resulting in loading high into your right hip at the top.Losing your right knee brace is also a major reason for the length of your backswing.The best way to learn to coil back correctly is Geoff 's 45 degree chair drill,which Lefthook has mentioned.During the 9-3 drill,your left hip and your head should NOT MOVE AT ALL LATERALLY as you feel your right knee and hip turn AWAY from the target line.
After you start to coil back correctly,then you can work on your takeaway.Your problem is NOT a function of the right elbow per se,since the left forearm should control the folding of the right arm,but of movement by your hands almost immediately at the beginning of your takeaway,which results in your right elbow being dragged way too inside and folding too early.

[CSagan]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1365009176' post='6751873']
Your problem is NOT a function of the right elbow per se,since the left forearm should control the folding of the right elbow,but of movement by your hands almost immediately at the beginning of your takeaway,which results in your right elbow being dragged way too inside.
[/quote]

I think this is backwards. He takes it inside because he rotates his left forearm at the start and that makes the right elbow bend and his arms get behind him...which causes the EE on the way down which kicks the heel out to the ball and leads to his shank.

If he kept the right elbow straight for as long as he could...the arms will stay in front...he'll have a one piece takeaway and when the elbow bends on its on (it has no choice but to bend) then that will rotate the left arm naturally.

I do agree with you he needs to learn how to coil his hips b/c he's kinda swaying them back.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eus0GYuddnA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eus0GYuddnA[/url]

Watch hunter's right arm...stays straight until his hands get around his pockets...then when that right elbow starts to bend the left forearm rotates on its on. I tried that other way....take it back one piece then rotate the left forearm...I practiced that for a YEAR (and I practice a lot) and never got it down good. It was just too hard to have two backswing thoughts and piece them together. When I started doing it like Hunter it all worked on the FIRST swing.

[SunkTheBirdie]

What does Tom Tomasello think ?

http://youtu.be/h22cGerPYvs

[SunkTheBirdie]

Tom T says: 2 to 3 is [url="http://youtu.be/h22cGerPYvs?t=2m55s"]right elbow bending[/url].

Uh oh ... but 1 to 2 looks like it involves left forearm rotation !

[CSagan]

[quote name='SunkTheBirdie' timestamp='1365012589' post='6752243']
Tom T says: 2 to 3 is [url="http://youtu.be/h22cGerPYvs?t=2m55s"]right elbow bending[/url].

Uh oh ... but 1 to 2 looks like it involves left forearm rotation !
[/quote]

But he isn't trying to do TGM. He's trying to do slicefixer. Being that Hunter is Geoff's perfect example of what he wants to see we should go by that imo.

[SunkTheBirdie]

Because of the really strong grip of the left hand it's hard to rotate the left forearm any more than it is by just the grip.

This left forearm vs. right elbow debate is interesting. Not sure what I think

[CSagan]

[quote name='SunkTheBirdie' timestamp='1365014414' post='6752495']
This left forearm vs. right elbow debate is interesting. Not sure what I think
[/quote]

You can do it either way. I just think letting it happen without thinking about it is the easier way to go about it...and I think that by doing it both ways.

Edit: I find a lot of the discussions interesting on this board...everyone sharing their views provides for a nice picture to be put together over time. Thats why we all keep coming back!

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='SunkTheBirdie' timestamp='1365012357' post='6752213']
What does Tom Tomasello think ?

[media=]http://youtu.be/h22cGerPYvs[/media]
[/quote]
If you want to undersatnd TGM better ,then this video may be a very good one.If you want to learn the Sliecfixer swing, then it is it is a poor one indeed.This has been discussed in detail in past posts

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1365010515' post='6752019']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1365009176' post='6751873']
Your problem is NOT a function of the right elbow per se,since the left forearm should control the folding of the right elbow,but of movement by your hands almost immediately at the beginning of your takeaway,which results in your right elbow being dragged way too inside.
[/quote]

I think this is backwards. He takes it inside because he rotates his left forearm at the start and that makes the right elbow bend and his arms get behind him...which causes the EE on the way down which kicks the heel out to the ball and leads to his shank.

If he kept the right elbow straight for as long as he could...the arms will stay in front...he'll have a one piece takeaway and when the elbow bends on its on (it has no choice but to bend) then that will rotate the left arm naturally.

I do agree with you he needs to learn how to coil his hips b/c he's kinda swaying them back.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eus0GYuddnA[/media]

Watch hunter's right arm...stays straight until his hands get around his pockets...then when that right elbow starts to bend the left forearm rotates on its on. I tried that other way....take it back one piece then rotate the left forearm...I practiced that for a YEAR (and I practice a lot) and never got it down good. It was just too hard to have two backswing thoughts and piece them together. When I started doing it like Hunter it all worked on the FIRST swing.
[/quote]
Even discussing any downswing problems considering the Op's problems going back is just plain silly and completely non-productive
This is not kinda of swaying back but a loss of the brace of the right knee and loading high into the right hip .

Getting the arms behind his body does create potential disconnect and out of synch problems and certainly needs to be addressed as i suggested ,but even if his arms are perfect going back , without a coil ,there is no pivot and the possibility of transitioning correctly is almost zero
The Op is starting his takeaway by a very definite movement by the hands from the getgo.Even his waggle involves significant rotation of the hands.By eliminating any movement by the hands in the first 12-18 inches he will have eliminated at least one of his problems without even thinking of the right elbow or left forearm , .Try this little experiment .Take the club back no further than your right foot.During the period make SURE that you right elbow does not fold and focus on rotating just your right hand only .No doubt the left forearm will also probably rotate as the right hand rotates.What will happen will be that the club is snatched inside.That is why focusing on the keeping the right arm straight will do very little for inside takeaway problems that happen via rotation of the hands at the beginning of the takeaway.

Focusing on folding the right arms to cause the left forearm to rotate runs the risk of snatching the club inside ,which is among the reasons why Mr Hogan specifically admonished against it.
I think that we agree on the need to achieve width going back and the timing of when the right elbow folds is integral to that goal
By the way i thought that Richie Fowler and not Hunter was the poster boy for Iteach's students

[SpacklersEdge]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1365018191' post='6752981']
Even discussing any downswing problems considering the Op's problems going back is just plain silly and completely non-productive
This is not kinda of swaying back but a loss of the brace of the right knee and loading high into the right hip .

Getting the arms behind his body does create potential disconnect and out of synch problems and certainly needs to be addressed as i suggested ,but even if his arms are perfect going back , without a coil ,there is no pivot and the possibility of transitioning correctly is almost zero
The Op is starting his takeaway by a very definite movement by the hands from the getgo.Even his waggle involves significant rotation of the hands.By eliminating any movement by the hands in the first 12-18 inches he will have eliminated at least one of his problems without even thinking of the right elbow or left forearm , .Try this little experiment .Take the club back no further than your right foot.During the period make SURE that you right elbow does not fold and focus on rotating just your right hand only .No doubt the left forearm will also probably rotate as the right hand rotates.What will happen will be that the club is snatched inside.That is why focusing on the keeping the right arm straight will do very little for inside takeaway problems that happen via rotation of the hands at the beginning of the takeaway.

Focusing on folding the right arms to cause the left forearm to rotate runs the risk of snatching the club inside ,which is among the reasons why Mr Hogan specifically admonished against it.
I think that we agree on the need to achieve width going back and the timing of when the right elbow folds is integral to that goal
By the way i thought that Richie Fowler and not Hunter was the poster boy for Iteach's students
[/quote]

Russ, I appreciate the posts and I agree first things first, the swing start with the takeaway, so let's work on that. I did some more work today, my main thought during my swings was to keep my right knee bend, and keep it braced, basically not letting it straighten and thus leading to the right hip pulling way back. At the same time I wanted to keep my hands from turning from the bottom (9) to at least 7 o clock. Hopefully this video shows some improvement, this was not my best strike of the bunch, but I did hit some real solid ones with this approach, one of which actually went right through a small hole in the net and ended up farther away than I would have expected. When I do keep the flex in the right knee and keep it from swaying back, I can't get way past parallel like before, and I do feel a lot of stored energy in the right leg/quad, as well as a coil in the left side rib area. It's actually work trying to get into this "left shoulder over right knee without breaking down" position, instead of just cheating and letting everything break down to get to the top.

sidenote: I hit the chipping green afterward and noticed I roll my hands open there too, I did the same thing with just bringing my hands back without opening them up and I chipped GREAT for the next half hour, like I USED to chip. I think over time I got lazy in the full swing and it leads to bad habits everywhere. So that was a nice plus. I left a small dime sized grass patch in the very center of the wedges when chipping, very repeatable.

Here is the video, I intended to get FO as well but the phone died before I could. Let me know if you see improvement and what particular parts I should focus on, can't have too many thoughts as once! This is a 9 iron. You can also see I fell toward the target line, not sure if this is a result of force from the clubhead during the swing, but I don't think so, I think my weight is on the left front foot, and not the heel...

EDIT: I didn't even watch the videos you guys debated about that were posted since my last post in this thread, think I need to focus on my own thing right now.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0UwkMnN3e4[/media]

[SunkTheBirdie]

Face on Video please.

[SpacklersEdge]

[quote name='SunkTheBirdie' timestamp='1365028551' post='6754709']
Face on Video please.
[/quote][quote name='SunkTheBirdie' timestamp='1365028551' post='6754709']
Face on Video please.
[/quote]

LMAO...I spent 5 minutes making sure my DTL was lined up perfect, since I was thinking in my head "SunkTheBirdie is going to reprimand me!". Did you read my post? The phone died!!

[SunkTheBirdie]

[quote name='SpacklersEdge' timestamp='1365029911' post='6754877'] Did you read my post? The phone died!! [/quote]
Not yet.
I need you shooting sub 80 rounds ASAP and you supplying partial data stresses me out.

LOL

[SpacklersEdge]

[quote name='SunkTheBirdie' timestamp='1365030069' post='6754907']
[quote name='SpacklersEdge' timestamp='1365029911' post='6754877'] Did you read my post? The phone died!! [/quote]
Not yet.
I need you shooting sub 80 rounds ASAP and you supplying partial data stresses me out.

LOL
[/quote][quote name='SunkTheBirdie' timestamp='1365030069' post='6754907']
[quote name='SpacklersEdge' timestamp='1365029911' post='6754877'] Did you read my post? The phone died!! [/quote]
Not yet.
I need you shooting sub 80 rounds ASAP and you supplying partial data stresses me out.

LOL
[/quote]

To quote the Roman Emperor Hadrian.."brick by brick, my citizens...brick by brick"

[Lefthook]

Spacklers,

You're crossing the line at the top. One of the causes is that you don't rotate your forearms enough on your way up.

Like most of us, you will probably have to work your butt off on the fundamentals' department to get a grip on this swing pattern:

Be picky about grip, posture, stance: Mirror & camera
Work hard on your takeaway and back swing: The chair drill
Do lots of slow motion drills in front of mirror and camera and check key positions: This will give valuable input to pusture and stance, but also down swing sequencing.
Study and learn which muscles are supposed to do the heavy lifting, and how, and use the slomo drills to get them in position to do what they're supposed to do.
Hit thousands of 9-3s and shorter, in order to learn to hit the ball with hands and club head connected to the pivot.

[SunkTheBirdie]

To quote the Roman Emperor Hadrian.."brick by brick, my citizens...brick by brick"

:) OK. Cool.

Well, your first Brick is that bad takeaway :)

Second is probably the pivot.

 

 

Side note:

Brick by Brick is a great game :)

[SunkTheBirdie]

I wonder if the Wii Balance Board would be good for teaching the correct hip / pivot action.
Hmmmmm.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1365030715' post='6755015']
Spacklers,

You're crossing the line at the top. One of the causes is that you don't rotate your forearms enough on your way up.

Like most of us, you will probably have to work your butt off on the fundamentals' department to get a grip on this swing pattern:

Be picky about grip, posture, stance: Mirror & camera
Work hard on your takeaway and back swing: The chair drill
Do lots of slow motion drills in front of mirror and camera and check key positions: This will give valuable input to pusture and stance, but also down swing sequencing.
Study and learn which muscles are supposed to do the heavy lifting, and how, and use the slomo drills to get them in position to do what they're supposed to do.
Hit thousands of 9-3s and shorter, in order to learn to hit the ball with hands and club head connected to the pivot.
[/quote]
+1
Do this

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='SunkTheBirdie' timestamp='1365031036' post='6755069']
I wonder if the Wii Balance Board would be good for teaching the correct hip / pivot action.
Hmmmmm.
[/quote]
right knee and hip move away from the TARGET LINE not the target

[CSagan]

[quote]

Focusing on folding the right arms to cause the left forearm to rotate runs the risk of snatching the club inside ,which is among the reasons why Mr Hogan specifically admonished against it.
I think that we agree on the need to achieve width going back and the timing of when the right elbow folds is integral to that goal
By the way i thought that Richie Fowler and not Hunter was the poster boy for Iteach's students
[/quote]

What I was suggesting eliminates any need to focus on anything but keeping arms straight and in front...then all the other stuff happens automatically. Was just trying to save the guy some time and effort.

Dunno why you had to toss in a jab at me or iteach...we were discussing slicefixer swing respectfully thru the thread.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1365039351' post='6756273']
[quote]

Focusing on folding the right arms to cause the left forearm to rotate runs the risk of snatching the club inside ,which is among the reasons why Mr Hogan specifically admonished against it.
I think that we agree on the need to achieve width going back and the timing of when the right elbow folds is integral to that goal
By the way i thought that Richie Fowler and not Hunter was the poster boy for Iteach's students
[/quote]

What I was suggesting eliminates any need to focus on anything but keeping arms straight and in front...then all the other stuff happens automatically. Was just trying to save the guy some time and effort.

Dunno why you had to toss in a jab at me or iteach...we were discussing slicefixer swing respectfully thru the thread.
[/quote]
As i stated ,there is a good reason why Mr Hogan mentions pronation of the left forearm and not right forearm rotation going back .Many golfers who emphasize the right arm folding will do exactly what you are trying to avoid .They will get that right elbow too far behind the body

[turnerMP-33]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1365010515' post='6752019']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1365009176' post='6751873']
Your problem is NOT a function of the right elbow per se,since the left forearm should control the folding of the right elbow,but of movement by your hands almost immediately at the beginning of your takeaway,which results in your right elbow being dragged way too inside.
[/quote]

I think this is backwards. He takes it inside because he rotates his left forearm at the start and that makes the right elbow bend and his arms get behind him...which causes the EE on the way down which kicks the heel out to the ball and leads to his shank.

If he kept the right elbow straight for as long as he could...the arms will stay in front...he'll have a one piece takeaway and when the elbow bends on its on (it has no choice but to bend) then that will rotate the left arm naturally.

I do agree with you he needs to learn how to coil his hips b/c he's kinda swaying them back.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eus0GYuddnA[/media]

Watch hunter's right arm...stays straight until his hands get around his pockets...then when that right elbow starts to bend the left forearm rotates on its on. I tried that other way....take it back one piece then rotate the left forearm...I practiced that for a YEAR (and I practice a lot) and never got it down good. It was just too hard to have two backswing thoughts and piece them together. When I started doing it like Hunter it all worked on the FIRST swing.
[/quote]


+1 TOTALLY AGREE 100%. I began only focusing on keepimg ,y arms straight during the entire swing and staying connected became ridiculosly easy. 9-3 drill is easy and great warm up drill now. Compressing the bejesus outta the ball

[CSagan]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1365040213' post='6756427']
[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1365039351' post='6756273']
[quote]

Focusing on folding the right arms to cause the left forearm to rotate runs the risk of snatching the club inside ,which is among the reasons why Mr Hogan specifically admonished against it.
I think that we agree on the need to achieve width going back and the timing of when the right elbow folds is integral to that goal
By the way i thought that Richie Fowler and not Hunter was the poster boy for Iteach's students
[/quote]

What I was suggesting eliminates any need to focus on anything but keeping arms straight and in front...then all the other stuff happens automatically. Was just trying to save the guy some time and effort.

Dunno why you had to toss in a jab at me or iteach...we were discussing slicefixer swing respectfully thru the thread.
[/quote]
As i stated ,there is a good reason why Mr Hogan mentions pronation of the left forearm and not right forearm rotation going back .Many golfers who emphasize the right arm folding will do exactly what you are trying to avoid .They will get that right elbow too far behind the body
[/quote]

I agree...thinking about either is bad news from what I've tried over the years. Again what I was suggesting eliminates the need to think about either of the arm mechanics in the swing...making it simpler.

[iteachgolf]

[quote]
By the way i thought that Richie Fowler and not Hunter was the poster boy for Iteach's students
[/quote]

Russ keep my name out of your mouth, especially if I'm not in the discussion. I don't go running off at the mouth and bash you in threads, especially ones you aren't posting in. Ill say again what I've said before, you don't know anything about what and how I teach. You've never seen me teach and have never taken a lesson from me. Show me a player I teach who looks like Fowler? I wrote an article about how arm swing affects the pivot and used Hunter and Rickie as examples. I never even said one was better than the other. The even funnier part is I like Hunter's swing I've spent more than a few hours with him and Sean on the range.

I have enough respect to not blast you on here, and I don't ever bring you up and your name doesn't come out of my mouth unless I'm talking directly to you, which is usually a result of you attacking me. Have just a little bit of respect, your act is getting old.

PS also have some respect and learn his name. You literaly misspell it everytime you type it.

[pinhigh27]

It's funny russ respects Hogan so much he calls him "Mr. Hogan" yet purposefully spells Fowler's name wrong. The whole Mr Hogan thing annoys me so much, when you are talking about Jordan so you say Mr. Jordan, or Mr. Bolt for Bolt? Sure he was a great golfer and I know you worship him, but it's still so weird to call him Mr. Hogan.

Edit: Also like to point out how much Russ trolls. Basically anything that isn't his slicefixer or hogan literature must be wrong. I remember eag1e and I were talking about TPI and of course he had to come in there and talk about how golf fitness is useless. Just annoying. From what I've seen on this forum, if its not hogan or slicefixer, Russ trashes it.

[SpacklersEdge]

If you guys want I can open a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT thread for you to argue? (ok enough of that).

I am trying to understand the takeaway a little better, so I have a couple of specific questions.

1. As I understand it, the torso turns to start it out, and so keeping that triangle formed by the arms, the hands start to move away from the ball obviously. When you do this, does it feel like your right hand is the one pulling, or the left hand is pushing, or do they both have the same amount of influence on the club? I hope that made sense at all, but I can plainly do one where I feel like the right hand pulls it the first 30 degrees, and another one where the right hand feels nothing and i am doing it all with the left.
2. Can someone explain the left arm rotation in 2 year old terms for me? For example I take my grip, then I left the club straight up in front of my so it's points skyward. Back of left hand is now facing target. I then rotate the club 90* to the right, so now the butt of the handle faces target, and back of left hand faces sky.I then simply turn back to what feels like the top of a back swing, and I can see that my left wrist is flat, as it should be, and I am not across the line because without breaking down the wrists or arms it's physically impossible. So is this a good thought? To simply rotate the left forearm 90* evenly throughout the back swing, to arrive at the correct position at the top?
3. What is a good checkpoint? When the club reaches parallel to the ground on the back swing, I was always told at this point it should also be parallel to the target line, and the toe should be point straight up perpendicular to the ground. Is this correct?