The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[ofortuna]

I just read the description and it sounds fantastic. I'm tempted to pull the trigger but at $70 a pop, what's it going to set me back to buy the whole series? I am wishing I didn't get module one and got module two instead. Still I'm tempted. Let's see what happens after a few cocktails.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437188935' post='11970522']
I just read the description and it sounds fantastic. I'm tempted to pull the trigger but at $70 a pop, what's it going to set me back to buy the whole series? I am wishing I didn't get module one and got module two instead. Still I'm tempted. Let's see what happens after a few cocktails.
[/quote]

Every Module is unique. Module One will have four videos: A,B, C and D. Think of that information as equivalent to grammar school and high school level for golf. About 7 hours of total viewing time for mod one. Module Two on the arm swing illusion is in a class by itself, maybe like first year of college. Module three on advanced arm mechanics and on the complete pivot motion mechanics, and module four on wrist, forearm and right arm angle mechanics are like the second and third year of college.

The most revolutionary of the modules - by far - is the arm swing illusion module two. Again - anyone who watches will very likely learn several very profound truths about the golf swing. There is a ton of info in module one that will result in significant and fast ball flight improvement, like setup, grip pressure,etc. But I see the most rapid overall swing motion improvement in my students when they really breakthrough and start to see through the illusions.

We dont know the price of the total program since we are still in the middle of producing it, and are releasing modules one by one as they are completed.

[fmzip]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437188935' post='11970522']
I just read the description and it sounds fantastic. I'm tempted to pull the trigger but at $70 a pop, what's it going to set me back to buy the whole series? I am wishing I didn't get module one and got module two instead. Still I'm tempted. Let's see what happens after a few cocktails.
[/quote]

The way I look at it, its a 2hr 35 minute video. That's a [i][b]very[/b][/i] inexpensive lesson and an awful lot of information that you can continually refer back to indefinitely.

If you in fact struggle with getting your arms to do the right thing regardless of what you've tried, Jim's video really focuses specifically on elements that I haven't seen anywhere. I've watched every Leadbetter and Mclean video back in the day, read countless books and watched tons of youtube video, not one spent enough time on the arm mechanics like this.

[ofortuna]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437189451' post='11970562']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437188935' post='11970522']
I just read the description and it sounds fantastic. I'm tempted to pull the trigger but at $70 a pop, what's it going to set me back to buy the whole series? I am wishing I didn't get module one and got module two instead. Still I'm tempted. Let's see what happens after a few cocktails.
[/quote]

Every Module is unique. Module One will have four videos: A,B, C and D. Think of that information as equivalent to grammar school and high school level for golf. About 7 hours of total viewing time for mod one. Module Two on the arm swing illusion is in a class by itself, maybe like first year of college. Module three on advanced arm mechanics and on the complete pivot motion mechanics, and module four on wrist, forearm and right arm angle mechanics are like the second and third year of college.

The most revolutionary of the modules - by far - is the arm swing illusion module two. Again - anyone who watches will very likely learn several very profound truths about the golf swing. There is a ton of info in module one that will result in significant and fast ball flight improvement, like setup, grip pressure,etc. But I see the most rapid overall swing motion improvement in my students when they really breakthrough and start to see through the illusions.

We dont know the price of the total program since we are still in the middle of producing it, and are releasing modules one by one as they are completed.
[/quote]

So I have Module one Part A and there will be additional parts B, C, and D.

Module two is is the new video and is self contained? No additional parts?

And then there will be Modules three and four later with no parts. So you are planning 7 videos to complete the series at least for now?

I am obviously already a fan of your teachings Mr. Waldron. I've read this entire thread and purchased your first video along with the ebook. The reason I'm asking these questions is not because I think the videos are overpriced, but I might have to budget or determine what is essential viewing if there's going to be 30 videos. You're talking to someone who is playing used Hogan PC irons bought off ebay for $65. Not complaining, they are great blades.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437191308' post='11970712']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437189451' post='11970562']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437188935' post='11970522']
I just read the description and it sounds fantastic. I'm tempted to pull the trigger but at $70 a pop, what's it going to set me back to buy the whole series? I am wishing I didn't get module one and got module two instead. Still I'm tempted. Let's see what happens after a few cocktails.
[/quote]

Every Module is unique. Module One will have four videos: A,B, C and D. Think of that information as equivalent to grammar school and high school level for golf. About 7 hours of total viewing time for mod one. Module Two on the arm swing illusion is in a class by itself, maybe like first year of college. Module three on advanced arm mechanics and on the complete pivot motion mechanics, and module four on wrist, forearm and right arm angle mechanics are like the second and third year of college.

The most revolutionary of the modules - by far - is the arm swing illusion module two. Again - anyone who watches will very likely learn several very profound truths about the golf swing. There is a ton of info in module one that will result in significant and fast ball flight improvement, like setup, grip pressure,etc. But I see the most rapid overall swing motion improvement in my students when they really breakthrough and start to see through the illusions.

We dont know the price of the total program since we are still in the middle of producing it, and are releasing modules one by one as they are completed.
[/quote]

So I have Module one Part A and there will be additional parts B, C, and D.

Module two is is the new video and is self contained? No additional parts?

And then there will be Modules three and four later with no parts. So you are planning 7 videos to complete the series at least for now?

I am obviously already a fan of your teachings Mr. Waldron. I've read this entire thread and purchased your first video along with the ebook. The reason I'm asking these questions is not because I think the videos are overpriced, but I might have to budget or determine what is essential viewing if there's going to be 30 videos. You're talking to someone who is playing used Hogan PC irons bought off ebay for $65. Not complaining, they are great blades.
[/quote]

If you send me a PM with stats on your game, mainly greens in reg, distances of a few clubs, and fairways hit, I can make a recommendation. Some videos are more important than others, mainly based on whatever your current skill level is. ASI video is for golfers of every level. There will be a Balance module, so if you know for sure your balance is perfect, no need to buy that one.

The main purpose of the whole Great Shot! program is to provide an "encyclopedia" of ballstriking knowledge. Any one element in that huge body of knowledge has the potential to improve your ballstriking, and there are many, many such elements. Some are clearly of more importance than others though. Balance and Setup are the two most influential physical fundamentals, in my experience. Grip and aim are obviously very important. If you struggle with poor arm mechanics and/or poor arm/pivot synchronization issues, or "getting stuck", or arm disconnection issues during Release, then the ASI video will help you.

ASI is complete, yes. And long - two hours and 38 minutes. We wont know the exact number of completed videos until the end, since we are trying to keep a video to around two and a half hours of maximum viewing time, mainly because of the time for download. But - right now it is looking like 9-10 modules, and about 12-14 videos total.

[ofortuna]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437193351' post='11970824']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437191308' post='11970712']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437189451' post='11970562']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437188935' post='11970522']
I just read the description and it sounds fantastic. I'm tempted to pull the trigger but at $70 a pop, what's it going to set me back to buy the whole series? I am wishing I didn't get module one and got module two instead. Still I'm tempted. Let's see what happens after a few cocktails.
[/quote]

Every Module is unique. Module One will have four videos: A,B, C and D. Think of that information as equivalent to grammar school and high school level for golf. About 7 hours of total viewing time for mod one. Module Two on the arm swing illusion is in a class by itself, maybe like first year of college. Module three on advanced arm mechanics and on the complete pivot motion mechanics, and module four on wrist, forearm and right arm angle mechanics are like the second and third year of college.

The most revolutionary of the modules - by far - is the arm swing illusion module two. Again - anyone who watches will very likely learn several very profound truths about the golf swing. There is a ton of info in module one that will result in significant and fast ball flight improvement, like setup, grip pressure,etc. But I see the most rapid overall swing motion improvement in my students when they really breakthrough and start to see through the illusions.

We dont know the price of the total program since we are still in the middle of producing it, and are releasing modules one by one as they are completed.
[/quote]

So I have Module one Part A and there will be additional parts B, C, and D.

Module two is is the new video and is self contained? No additional parts?

And then there will be Modules three and four later with no parts. So you are planning 7 videos to complete the series at least for now?

I am obviously already a fan of your teachings Mr. Waldron. I've read this entire thread and purchased your first video along with the ebook. The reason I'm asking these questions is not because I think the videos are overpriced, but I might have to budget or determine what is essential viewing if there's going to be 30 videos. You're talking to someone who is playing used Hogan PC irons bought off ebay for $65. Not complaining, they are great blades.
[/quote]

If you send me a PM with stats on your game, mainly greens in reg, distances of a few clubs, and fairways hit, I can make a recommendation. Some videos are more important than others, mainly based on whatever your current skill level is. ASI video is for golfers of every level. There will be a Balance module, so if you know for sure your balance is perfect, no need to buy that one.

The main purpose of the whole Great Shot! program is to provide an "encyclopedia" of ballstriking knowledge. Any one element in that huge body of knowledge has the potential to improve your ballstriking, and there are many, many such elements. Some are clearly of more importance than others though. Balance and Setup are the two most influential physical fundamentals, in my experience. Grip and aim are obviously very important. If you struggle with poor arm mechanics and/or poor arm/pivot synchronization issues, or "getting stuck", or arm disconnection issues during Release, then the ASI video will help you.
[/quote]

Thanks I might take you up on that!

I think I fall squarely in the poor arm/pivot sync issue category. Also I'm discovering that I often end up in p6 with an open clubface. I've played with a large lateral sway back and then forward past the ball with a spin out pivot for many years. I've made some progress after discovering these faults but those are my tendencies. An in depth explanation of what the arms are supposed to do with the pivot with drills sounds enticing.

[Jim Waldron]

Here is the link to the Arm Swing Illusion video. Download options in either HD or DVD viewing quality.

http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop/golf-videos

[poops]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437186920' post='11970328']
[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1437186457' post='11970290']
Jim,

I am really finding the Arm Swing Illusion Video to be enlightening.

I am up to the point of the drills, the waiter tray one is very good as it really gives me instant feedback on that right arm wandering "mysteriously" on its own. The shaped drill is exactly what I need to learn to hit consistent crisp wedges.

Good work on the video, it was definitely worth the wait
[/quote]

Thanks! I am going to make a long post about the ASI video, explain a bit more of the details behind it, just too exhausted tonight after ten hours of teaching in 90 degree heat. Maybe tomorrow night. I will just say for now that this ASI video is the best product I have ever put out, it turned out to be much, much better than I had expected. I think anyone who watches it with a truly open and inquiring mind will walk away with a totally new understanding of the golf swing.
[/quote]

Eagerly awaiting that long post. Would like to read through it before I commit to purchasing the ASI video.

[ofortuna]

So what should you do from the top of a perfect backswing with your arms? The woodchop motion?

If you just let them be passive and be moved by the pivot, won't the arms get stuck and be flung right of the front of the body by the force of the pivot? It seems to me that although understanding the arms illusion and that they just go up/down and not around your chest, it might not be actually easy to do. Since the backswing involves active arm motion, once you understand what you're supposed to do, you should be able to get to a perfect top position with practice and mirror work. The downswing on the other hand, since it involves more dynamic forces it seems that it's a lot easier to falter off course.

[Jim Waldron]

It's a tough issue to understand, since the ASI is so strong that the idea that you can literally "do nothing" with the arms is just hard to accept. And "doing nothing" does not mean that the arms are not moving, and fast too. It means not using the arm muscles, upper arms, to move the arms, especially in the horizontal dimension. Getting stuck is not an issue IF you have good Triangle pressures and good Tilt Switch and core activation. If you lack those three things, your arms will get stuck for sure. I demoed this just yesterday for the Great Shot! students here in Portland. I tried to leave my arms behind during Transition, and just did a proper Pivot motion. Of course my arms ended up in a perfect P6 position.

Folks forgot that the upper arms are connected to the shoulder girdle and when the SG uncoils, the arms are moving along with it. But when you lack a true understanding of the Triangle, you will "see" the upper arms as acting independently of the shoulder girdle. Most golfers don't conceptually understand the golf swing as a Triangle, in any case.

Woodchopping is an exagerrated intention drill - not part of the model. It is designed to help golfers who actively flip and release their wrist c0ck angles too early and in the wrong dimension, ie sideways instead of down. Release is something that happens in my model swing, not something that you "do".

[ofortuna]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437403878' post='11983858']
It's a tough issue to understand, since the ASI is so strong that the idea that you can literally "do nothing" with the arms is just hard to accept. And "doing nothing" does not mean that the arms are not moving, and fast too. It means not using the arm muscles, upper arms, to move the arms, especially in the horizontal dimension. Getting stuck is not an issue IF you have good Triangle pressures and good Tilt Switch and core activation. If you lack those three things, your arms will get stuck for sure. I demoed this just yesterday for the Great Shot! students here in Portland. I tried to leave my arms behind during Transition, and just did a proper Pivot motion. Of course my arms ended up in a perfect P6 position.

Folks forgot that the upper arms are connected to the shoulder girdle and when the SG uncoils, the arms are moving along with it. But when you lack a true understanding of the Triangle, you will "see" the upper arms as acting independently of the shoulder girdle. Most golfers don't conceptually understand the golf swing as a Triangle, in any case.

Woodchopping is an exagerrated intention drill - not part of the model. It is designed to help golfers who actively flip and release their wrist c0ck angles too early and in the wrong dimension, ie sideways instead of down. Release is something that happens in my model swing, not something that you "do".
[/quote]

Ok that makes sense about the woodchopping drill. I think I have the concept, it's just taking the next step to application and internalizing with a feel. It seems that if you go with the feel of arms doing nothing, they are bound to do the wrong thing. In the analogy of the spinning record and fixed rpm of the body, arms, club, in the actual swing won't you feel like you're moving your arms as fast as you can? In fact, can't you just swing your hands as fast as you can from the top and as long as both your arms are straight won't you be maintaining the triangle and arms in front of the body? I know feels are extremely subjective. I'm just trying to reconcile the fact that the arms need to come down vertically in front of the body on the downswing yet need to be moved passively by a rotational force. I can see a small portion of the down is from unwinding your shoulders maintaining forward tilt and possibly the unwinding of the lower body with tilt shift could contribute further. I just can't wrap my head around the sequencing.

I did purchase the ASI video over the weekend and watched it twice. Since it's over 2.5 hrs that's saying something. It really helped to see the 45degree pushaway visually demonstrated from several different angles especially where you showed examples of being a little bit inside. That was me. My shaft line was more over my right knee than over my right toe.

I also loved the V drill without a club. Seeing how arms push away on the backswing, drop back on the downswing, then push away again on the followthough was fascinating. Is this action evenly distributed throughout the swing? I know you've said something to the effect that from p6 your arms actually freeze momentarily.

[starsail85]

In the model swing is the left wrist flat or cupped at both p3 and p4?

[Silky]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437403878' post='11983858']
It's a tough issue to understand, since the ASI is so strong that the idea that you can literally "do nothing" with the arms is just hard to accept. And "doing nothing" does not mean that the arms are not moving, and fast too. It means not using the arm muscles, upper arms, to move the arms, especially in the horizontal dimension. Getting stuck is not an issue IF you have good Triangle pressures and good Tilt Switch and core activation. If you lack those three things, your arms will get stuck for sure. I demoed this just yesterday for the Great Shot! students here in Portland. I tried to leave my arms behind during Transition, and just did a proper Pivot motion. Of course my arms ended up in a perfect P6 position.

Folks forgot that the upper arms are connected to the shoulder girdle and when the SG uncoils, the arms are moving along with it. But when you lack a true understanding of the Triangle, you will "see" the upper arms as acting independently of the shoulder girdle. Most golfers don't conceptually understand the golf swing as a Triangle, in any case.

Woodchopping is an exagerrated intention drill - not part of the model. It is designed to help golfers who actively flip and release their wrist c0ck angles too early and in the wrong dimension, ie sideways instead of down. Release is something that happens in my model swing, not something that you "do".
[/quote]

It is very satisfying that I understand more and more of what you say. I have just one question now, though. During Transition and Tilt Switch, what should one keep fixed - top of the head, the center of the head, or C7 vertebrate? I am trying to keep the C7 fixed. What are the advantages, disadvantages?

Edit: Ah, one more question please. By core activation during Tilt Switch, do you mean the separation of the torso from the hips? I keep my torso coiled during Transition and Tilt Switch.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437421712' post='11986724']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437403878' post='11983858']
It's a tough issue to understand, since the ASI is so strong that the idea that you can literally "do nothing" with the arms is just hard to accept. And "doing nothing" does not mean that the arms are not moving, and fast too. It means not using the arm muscles, upper arms, to move the arms, especially in the horizontal dimension. Getting stuck is not an issue IF you have good Triangle pressures and good Tilt Switch and core activation. If you lack those three things, your arms will get stuck for sure. I demoed this just yesterday for the Great Shot! students here in Portland. I tried to leave my arms behind during Transition, and just did a proper Pivot motion. Of course my arms ended up in a perfect P6 position.

Folks forgot that the upper arms are connected to the shoulder girdle and when the SG uncoils, the arms are moving along with it. But when you lack a true understanding of the Triangle, you will "see" the upper arms as acting independently of the shoulder girdle. Most golfers don't conceptually understand the golf swing as a Triangle, in any case.

Woodchopping is an exagerrated intention drill - not part of the model. It is designed to help golfers who actively flip and release their wrist c0ck angles too early and in the wrong dimension, ie sideways instead of down. Release is something that happens in my model swing, not something that you "do".
[/quote]

Ok that makes sense about the woodchopping drill. I think I have the concept, it's just taking the next step to application and internalizing with a feel. It seems that if you go with the feel of arms doing nothing, they are bound to do the wrong thing. In the analogy of the spinning record and fixed rpm of the body, arms, club, in the actual swing won't you feel like you're moving your arms as fast as you can? In fact, can't you just swing your hands as fast as you can from the top and as long as both your arms are straight won't you be maintaining the triangle and arms in front of the body? I know feels are extremely subjective. I'm just trying to reconcile the fact that the arms need to come down vertically in front of the body on the downswing yet need to be moved passively by a rotational force. I can see a small portion of the down is from unwinding your shoulders maintaining forward tilt and possibly the unwinding of the lower body with tilt shift could contribute further. I just can't wrap my head around the sequencing.

I did purchase the ASI video over the weekend and watched it twice. Since it's over 2.5 hrs that's saying something. It really helped to see the 45degree pushaway visually demonstrated from several different angles especially where you showed examples of being a little bit inside. That was me. My shaft line was more over my right knee than over my right toe.

I also loved the V drill without a club. Seeing how arms push away on the backswing, drop back on the downswing, then push away again on the followthough was fascinating. Is this action evenly distributed throughout the swing? I know you've said something to the effect that from p6 your arms actually freeze momentarily.
[/quote]

Yes - upper arms come to a complete stop for a fraction of a second from P6 to just after impact. I mean, of course, independent arm motion in the horizontal dimension. Obviously the arms are moving very fast due to the Pivot. The down dimension motion is complete at P6. Arms cross mid-line only after impact - not before.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1437424998' post='11987184']
In the model swing is the left wrist flat or cupped at both p3 and p4?
[/quote]

Flat at both positions. But - you can be a bit cupped or bowed, depending on your grip type and preferred shot shape.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1437440113' post='11988930']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437403878' post='11983858']
It's a tough issue to understand, since the ASI is so strong that the idea that you can literally "do nothing" with the arms is just hard to accept. And "doing nothing" does not mean that the arms are not moving, and fast too. It means not using the arm muscles, upper arms, to move the arms, especially in the horizontal dimension. Getting stuck is not an issue IF you have good Triangle pressures and good Tilt Switch and core activation. If you lack those three things, your arms will get stuck for sure. I demoed this just yesterday for the Great Shot! students here in Portland. I tried to leave my arms behind during Transition, and just did a proper Pivot motion. Of course my arms ended up in a perfect P6 position.

Folks forgot that the upper arms are connected to the shoulder girdle and when the SG uncoils, the arms are moving along with it. But when you lack a true understanding of the Triangle, you will "see" the upper arms as acting independently of the shoulder girdle. Most golfers don't conceptually understand the golf swing as a Triangle, in any case.

Woodchopping is an exagerrated intention drill - not part of the model. It is designed to help golfers who actively flip and release their wrist c0ck angles too early and in the wrong dimension, ie sideways instead of down. Release is something that happens in my model swing, not something that you "do".
[/quote]

It is very satisfying that I understand more and more of what you say. I have just one question now, though. During Transition and Tilt Switch, what should one keep fixed - top of the head, the center of the head, or C7 vertebrate? I am trying to keep the C7 fixed. What are the advantages, disadvantages?

Edit: Ah, one more question please. By core activation during Tilt Switch, do you mean the separation of the torso from the hips? I keep my torso coiled during Transition and Tilt Switch.
[/quote]

I recommend keeping the head stationary, along with C7/sternum, during Transition, or at most a very slight movement of the two to the left, back to address position. You need a stable fixed position of the Upper Swing Center for the six laws of club motion to manifest, especially low point, and a steady head is essential for good Balance.

Core activation means your belly muscles and glutes are firing, so that there is no slack in the mid-body region, if there is slack, the lagpressure from hip pivot leaks into your upper arms and moves them too far right of mid-lin, ie too much intertia acting on shoulder girdle and arms.

[starsail85]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437444935' post='11989508']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1437424998' post='11987184']
In the model swing is the left wrist flat or cupped at both p3 and p4?
[/quote]

Flat at both positions. But - you can be a bit cupped or bowed, depending on your grip type and preferred shot shape.
[/quote]

Recently it has started to occur to me that cupped wrist at the top is not as stable in transition and can lead to fluctuations

[fmzip]

Had another great range session after watching the video....

Came home, watched it again. The more and more I watch it, I can see and understand it much more clearly.

Very pleased Jim!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='fmzip' timestamp='1437531552' post='11996508']
Had another great range session after watching the video....

Came home, watched it again. The more and more I watch it, I can see and understand it much more clearly.

Very pleased Jim!
[/quote]

Thanks! And your improvement is really the whole point of that video and the Deep Insight method that is the basic premise of that particular way of breaking through to a higher level of golf skill. Deep Insight is fastest way to experience really significant improvement, since as soon as that super nova light bulb goes off, your body moves in a new and better way, closer to how a tour pro swings. Which is why I strongly recommend to all those who buy the video to watch it more than once - many, many times is best. You are attempting to de-construct the Illusion from your subconscious mind swing map.

[ofortuna]

So at P2 the hands are further from the body than P6? Since you do the 45 degree pushaway to get to p2 and if all the down movement has completed by P6, then the hands should be the same distance from the body as setup. Correct?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437540542' post='11997404']
So at P2 the hands are further from the body than P6? Since you do the 45 degree pushaway to get to p2 and if all the down movement has completed by P6, then the hands should be the same distance from the body as setup. Correct?
[/quote]

Yes. Look at any tour pro at P2, the right elbow is away from the side of the chest by a few inches. That space is missing at P6, due to right elbow being bent at P6 and momentum from Pivot and tilting bringing right elbow and body together. Down dimension complete in terms of independent upper arm motion from shoulder sockets - still a bit more down from Pivot thrust though. Left arm to chest "arm lag" angle should be between 30 and 45 degrees at P6 and it stays the same until just after impact, ie no sliding of the upper arms across mid-line until after impact or "Super-Connection".

I think I have talked before what Tom Weiskopf shared with me about his Hogan lesson. Hogan described to Tom the concept I call "Super-Connection" from P6 to just after impact. Same RPM speed of hands/arms and shoulder girdle and clubhead, in the horizontal dimension (clubhead moving faster in the down and out dimensions). The Lever and RPM/MPH Illusions are the secret. Bob Bush, creator of Iron Byron, also talks about this concept.

[Silky]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437541456' post='11997460']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437540542' post='11997404']
So at P2 the hands are further from the body than P6? Since you do the 45 degree pushaway to get to p2 and if all the down movement has completed by P6, then the hands should be the same distance from the body as setup. Correct?
[/quote]

Yes. Look at any tour pro at P2, the right elbow is away from the side of the chest by a few inches. That space is missing at P6, due to right elbow being bent at P6 and momentum from Pivot and tilting bringing right elbow and body together. Down dimension complete in terms of independent upper arm motion from shoulder sockets - still a bit more down from Pivot thrust though. Left arm to chest "arm lag" angle should be between 30 and 45 degrees at P6 and it stays the same until just after impact, ie no sliding of the upper arms across mid-line until after impact or "Super-Connection".

I think I have talked before what Tom Weiskopf shared with me about his Hogan lesson. Hogan described to Tom the concept I call "Super-Connection" from P6 to just after impact. Same RPM speed of hands/arms and shoulder girdle and clubhead, in the horizontal dimension (clubhead moving faster in the down and out dimensions). The Lever and RPM/MPH Illusions are the secret. Bob Bush, creator of Iron Byron, also talks about this concept.
[/quote]

Jim,
Some clarifications regarding "Super-Connection", please. When you sat horizontal, down and out dimensions, do you mean exactly that with respect to the ground/earth? So horizontal means parallel to the target line, down is directly towards the ground and out is toward the target line? But isn't the club shaft constrained to move in the shaft/impact plane especially for Hogan's swing from P6 to after impact? I do understand the lever RPM/MPH conversion for the club head and the fixed pivot center and fixed lever arm length in Hogan's swing like the Iron Byron. But within the impact/shaft plane the club head must have greater RPM with respect to the hands so that starting from p6 it can catch up with the hands radially when both arms straight after impact?

[PJ1120]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437444863' post='11989496']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437421712' post='11986724']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437403878' post='11983858']
It's a tough issue to understand, since the ASI is so strong that the idea that you can literally "do nothing" with the arms is just hard to accept. And "doing nothing" does not mean that the arms are not moving, and fast too. It means not using the arm muscles, upper arms, to move the arms, especially in the horizontal dimension. Getting stuck is not an issue IF you have good Triangle pressures and good Tilt Switch and core activation. If you lack those three things, your arms will get stuck for sure. I demoed this just yesterday for the Great Shot! students here in Portland. I tried to leave my arms behind during Transition, and just did a proper Pivot motion. Of course my arms ended up in a perfect P6 position.

Folks forgot that the upper arms are connected to the shoulder girdle and when the SG uncoils, the arms are moving along with it. But when you lack a true understanding of the Triangle, you will "see" the upper arms as acting independently of the shoulder girdle. Most golfers don't conceptually understand the golf swing as a Triangle, in any case.

Woodchopping is an exagerrated intention drill - not part of the model. It is designed to help golfers who actively flip and release their wrist c0ck angles too early and in the wrong dimension, ie sideways instead of down. Release is something that happens in my model swing, not something that you "do".
[/quote]

Ok that makes sense about the woodchopping drill. I think I have the concept, it's just taking the next step to application and internalizing with a feel. It seems that if you go with the feel of arms doing nothing, they are bound to do the wrong thing. In the analogy of the spinning record and fixed rpm of the body, arms, club, in the actual swing won't you feel like you're moving your arms as fast as you can? In fact, can't you just swing your hands as fast as you can from the top and as long as both your arms are straight won't you be maintaining the triangle and arms in front of the body? I know feels are extremely subjective. I'm just trying to reconcile the fact that the arms need to come down vertically in front of the body on the downswing yet need to be moved passively by a rotational force. I can see a small portion of the down is from unwinding your shoulders maintaining forward tilt and possibly the unwinding of the lower body with tilt shift could contribute further. I just can't wrap my head around the sequencing.

I did purchase the ASI video over the weekend and watched it twice. Since it's over 2.5 hrs that's saying something. It really helped to see the 45degree pushaway visually demonstrated from several different angles especially where you showed examples of being a little bit inside. That was me. My shaft line was more over my right knee than over my right toe.

I also loved the V drill without a club. Seeing how arms push away on the backswing, drop back on the downswing, then push away again on the followthough was fascinating. Is this action evenly distributed throughout the swing? I know you've said something to the effect that from p6 your arms actually freeze momentarily.
[/quote]

Yes - upper arms come to a complete stop for a fraction of a second from P6 to just after impact. I mean, of course, independent arm motion in the horizontal dimension. Obviously the arms are moving very fast due to the Pivot. The down dimension motion is complete at P6. Arms cross mid-line only after impact - not before.
[/quote]

Very interesting Jim. Do you recall the Mac O'Grady clinic video from the mid-late 80's when Mac says to drop the hands from P4 to P6 and then just rotate? I believe it was Stockton who said incredulously "he wants us to stop at P6".

[Millbrook]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1437572699' post='11998838']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437541456' post='11997460']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437540542' post='11997404']
So at P2 the hands are further from the body than P6? Since you do the 45 degree pushaway to get to p2 and if all the down movement has completed by P6, then the hands should be the same distance from the body as setup. Correct?
[/quote]

Yes. Look at any tour pro at P2, the right elbow is away from the side of the chest by a few inches. That space is missing at P6, due to right elbow being bent at P6 and momentum from Pivot and tilting bringing right elbow and body together. Down dimension complete in terms of independent upper arm motion from shoulder sockets - still a bit more down from Pivot thrust though. Left arm to chest "arm lag" angle should be between 30 and 45 degrees at P6 and it stays the same until just after impact, ie no sliding of the upper arms across mid-line until after impact or "Super-Connection".

I think I have talked before what Tom Weiskopf shared with me about his Hogan lesson. Hogan described to Tom the concept I call "Super-Connection" from P6 to just after impact. Same RPM speed of hands/arms and shoulder girdle and clubhead, in the horizontal dimension (clubhead moving faster in the down and out dimensions). The Lever and RPM/MPH Illusions are the secret. Bob Bush, creator of Iron Byron, also talks about this concept.
[/quote]

Jim,
Some clarifications regarding "Super-Connection", please. When you sat horizontal, down and out dimensions, do you mean exactly that with respect to the ground/earth? So horizontal means parallel to the target line, down is directly towards the ground and out is toward the target line? But isn't the club shaft constrained to move in the shaft/impact plane especially for Hogan's swing from P6 to after impact? I do understand the lever RPM/MPH conversion for the club head and the fixed pivot center and fixed lever arm length in Hogan's swing like the Iron Byron. But within the impact/shaft plane the club head must have greater RPM with respect to the hands so that starting from p6 it can catch up with the hands radially when both arms straight after impact?
[/quote]

Are you confusing RPM with speed?

[Silky]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1437586553' post='12000392']
[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1437572699' post='11998838']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437541456' post='11997460']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437540542' post='11997404']
So at P2 the hands are further from the body than P6? Since you do the 45 degree pushaway to get to p2 and if all the down movement has completed by P6, then the hands should be the same distance from the body as setup. Correct?
[/quote]

Yes. Look at any tour pro at P2, the right elbow is away from the side of the chest by a few inches. That space is missing at P6, due to right elbow being bent at P6 and momentum from Pivot and tilting bringing right elbow and body together. Down dimension complete in terms of independent upper arm motion from shoulder sockets - still a bit more down from Pivot thrust though. Left arm to chest "arm lag" angle should be between 30 and 45 degrees at P6 and it stays the same until just after impact, ie no sliding of the upper arms across mid-line until after impact or "Super-Connection".

I think I have talked before what Tom Weiskopf shared with me about his Hogan lesson. Hogan described to Tom the concept I call "Super-Connection" from P6 to just after impact. Same RPM speed of hands/arms and shoulder girdle and clubhead, in the horizontal dimension (clubhead moving faster in the down and out dimensions). The Lever and RPM/MPH Illusions are the secret. Bob Bush, creator of Iron Byron, also talks about this concept.
[/quote]

Jim,
Some clarifications regarding "Super-Connection", please. When you sat horizontal, down and out dimensions, do you mean exactly that with respect to the ground/earth? So horizontal means parallel to the target line, down is directly towards the ground and out is toward the target line? But isn't the club shaft constrained to move in the shaft/impact plane especially for Hogan's swing from P6 to after impact? I do understand the lever RPM/MPH conversion for the club head and the fixed pivot center and fixed lever arm length in Hogan's swing like the Iron Byron. But within the impact/shaft plane the club head must have greater RPM with respect to the hands so that starting from p6 it can catch up with the hands radially when both arms straight after impact?
[/quote]

Are you confusing RPM with speed?
[/quote]

There are two kinds of speed - angular (rotational) and linear. The units of angular speed can be revolutions per minute or degrees per second where as linear speed can be MPH in the USA or kilometers per hour elsewhere in the world.

[Jim Waldron]

I cover this very interesting but illusion/mis-perception shrouded topic in the e-book. I call it Hand Switch and it is basically impossible to explain in words to a high level of understanding without in person instruction on a plane board. You can pretty easily understand empirically what Bob Bush discovered, and Hogan talked about to Tom W, and that is that at P6 with a flat (or nearly so) left wrist that is perpendicular to the ground, that the left wrist is in same position at impact, ie flat but back to level or a little arched up, and perpendicular to the ground. The wrist joint has rotated 90 degrees from P6 to impact. But the left wrist has not flipped, ie the clubhead has not passed the hands, so that means in the horizontal dimension, the clubhead rpm speed is the same as the left arm, if it was faster, it would have passed the left hand, or the left wrist would be bent.Same thing goes for the left arm to chest angle. If you can see through the ASI, you can see that the left arm has not moved to right of mid-line until after impact, in fact, is super-connected, ie not moving independently of the body during Release In fact, the upper left arm is moving away from the target just before impact. This is the airplane propeller concept - rpm speed of hub and tip of propeller exactly the same, mph speed of the tip much faster than the hub.

That is a good start in forming a better understanding of Release and connection and Pivot Thrust. Helps a lot to de-construct the Hit Impulse and flipping and arm disconnection.

In reality though, since the body and club are moving in 3D space, it is not that simple.

Here are a few hints. Right spine Tilt and forearm rotation with wrists c0cked have an influence in speeding up the clubhead to a faster RPM speed. On the plane board you can clearly see what happens from P6 to impact, ie the shaft moves on the plane surface, and clubhead moves down, out and around (or toward the target). We have to move the CH down and out because the ball is on the ground and we are standing to the side of the ball. We move it around because we have to apply force to the back of the ball in the direction of the target.

But really, no one needs to dissect the golf swing to this extent unless it truly results in a better swing motion, because it results in a Deep Insight. Most golfers don't need to know this advanced technical stuff. And some golfers who think they need to know it are control freaks who have way, way too much conscious mind over-analysis going on, in my opinion.

What they do need to know, in my opinion, is to NOT throw the clubhead past the hands (flipping) before impact, and to NOT slide the arms past mid-line until after impact. And they DO need to actively Pivot thrust. If they are doing those three skills from P6, they dont need to know if in fact the clubhead is moving faster than the body in rpm speed - or not - and if so, by how much. I never saw a student improve their swing to any significant degree from intellectual understanding of this issue.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='PJ1120' timestamp='1437585189' post='12000214']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437444863' post='11989496']
[quote name='ofortuna' timestamp='1437421712' post='11986724']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437403878' post='11983858']
It's a tough issue to understand, since the ASI is so strong that the idea that you can literally "do nothing" with the arms is just hard to accept. And "doing nothing" does not mean that the arms are not moving, and fast too. It means not using the arm muscles, upper arms, to move the arms, especially in the horizontal dimension. Getting stuck is not an issue IF you have good Triangle pressures and good Tilt Switch and core activation. If you lack those three things, your arms will get stuck for sure. I demoed this just yesterday for the Great Shot! students here in Portland. I tried to leave my arms behind during Transition, and just did a proper Pivot motion. Of course my arms ended up in a perfect P6 position.

Folks forgot that the upper arms are connected to the shoulder girdle and when the SG uncoils, the arms are moving along with it. But when you lack a true understanding of the Triangle, you will "see" the upper arms as acting independently of the shoulder girdle. Most golfers don't conceptually understand the golf swing as a Triangle, in any case.

Woodchopping is an exagerrated intention drill - not part of the model. It is designed to help golfers who actively flip and release their wrist c0ck angles too early and in the wrong dimension, ie sideways instead of down. Release is something that happens in my model swing, not something that you "do".
[/quote]

Ok that makes sense about the woodchopping drill. I think I have the concept, it's just taking the next step to application and internalizing with a feel. It seems that if you go with the feel of arms doing nothing, they are bound to do the wrong thing. In the analogy of the spinning record and fixed rpm of the body, arms, club, in the actual swing won't you feel like you're moving your arms as fast as you can? In fact, can't you just swing your hands as fast as you can from the top and as long as both your arms are straight won't you be maintaining the triangle and arms in front of the body? I know feels are extremely subjective. I'm just trying to reconcile the fact that the arms need to come down vertically in front of the body on the downswing yet need to be moved passively by a rotational force. I can see a small portion of the down is from unwinding your shoulders maintaining forward tilt and possibly the unwinding of the lower body with tilt shift could contribute further. I just can't wrap my head around the sequencing.

I did purchase the ASI video over the weekend and watched it twice. Since it's over 2.5 hrs that's saying something. It really helped to see the 45degree pushaway visually demonstrated from several different angles especially where you showed examples of being a little bit inside. That was me. My shaft line was more over my right knee than over my right toe.

I also loved the V drill without a club. Seeing how arms push away on the backswing, drop back on the downswing, then push away again on the followthough was fascinating. Is this action evenly distributed throughout the swing? I know you've said something to the effect that from p6 your arms actually freeze momentarily.
[/quote]

Yes - upper arms come to a complete stop for a fraction of a second from P6 to just after impact. I mean, of course, independent arm motion in the horizontal dimension. Obviously the arms are moving very fast due to the Pivot. The down dimension motion is complete at P6. Arms cross mid-line only after impact - not before.
[/quote]

Very interesting Jim. Do you recall the Mac O'Grady clinic video from the mid-late 80's when Mac says to drop the hands from P4 to P6 and then just rotate? I believe it was Stockton who said incredulously "he wants us to stop at P6".
[/quote]

I never saw that video, but my guess is that Mac was just talking about Super-Connection of upper arms to right of mid-line. Does not mean the arms actually stop, they are moving very fast but ONLY from the Pivot, and not at all from independent upper arm motion, meaning arm muscles in the shoulder socket moving the arms in the horizontal dimension. Similar motion to a back hand in tennis or a back fist strike in karate.

[Silky]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437618112' post='12003684']
I cover this very interesting but illusion/mis-perception shrouded topic in the e-book. I call it Hand Switch and it is basically impossible to explain in words to a high level of understanding without in person instruction on a plane board. You can pretty easily understand empirically what Bob Bush discovered, and Hogan talked about to Tom W, and that is that at P6 with a flat (or nearly so) left wrist that is perpendicular to the ground, that the left wrist is in same position at impact, ie flat but back to level or a little arched up, and perpendicular to the ground. The wrist joint has rotated 90 degrees from P6 to impact. But the left wrist has not flipped, ie the clubhead has not passed the hands, so that means in the horizontal dimension, the clubhead rpm speed is the same as the left arm, if it was faster, it would have passed the left hand, or the left wrist would be bent.Same thing goes for the left arm to chest angle. If you can see through the ASI, you can see that the left arm has not moved to right of mid-line until after impact, in fact, is super-connected, ie not moving independently of the body during Release In fact, the upper left arm is moving away from the target just before impact. This is the airplane propeller concept - rpm speed of hub and tip of propeller exactly the same, mph speed of the tip much faster than the hub.

That is a good start in forming a better understanding of Release and connection and Pivot Thrust. Helps a lot to de-construct the Hit Impulse and flipping and arm disconnection.

In reality though, since the body and club are moving in 3D space, it is not that simple.

Here are a few hints. Right spine Tilt and forearm rotation with wrists c0cked have an influence in speeding up the clubhead to a faster RPM speed. On the plane board you can clearly see what happens from P6 to impact, ie the shaft moves on the plane surface, and clubhead moves down, out and around (or toward the target). We have to move the CH down and out because the ball is on the ground and we are standing to the side of the ball. We move it around because we have to apply force to the back of the ball in the direction of the target.

But really, no one needs to dissect the golf swing to this extent unless it truly results in a better swing motion, because it results in a Deep Insight. Most golfers don't need to know this advanced technical stuff. And some golfers who think they need to know it are control freaks who have way, way too much conscious mind over-analysis going on, in my opinion.

What they do need to know, in my opinion, is to NOT throw the clubhead past the hands (flipping) before impact, and to NOT slide the arms past mid-line until after impact. And they DO need to actively Pivot thrust. If they are doing those three skills from P6, they dont need to know if in fact the clubhead is moving faster than the body in rpm speed - or not - and if so, by how much. I never saw a student improve their swing to any significant degree from intellectual understanding of this issue.
[/quote]

Jim,

Many thanks for the detailed response. I have your e-book and will try to understand the concept of "super connection". What I noticed though is that Hogan, unlike a typical golfer, kept the arms-body connection and the torquing of the Pivot Thrust to beyond impact.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1437618780' post='12003776']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437618112' post='12003684']
I cover this very interesting but illusion/mis-perception shrouded topic in the e-book. I call it Hand Switch and it is basically impossible to explain in words to a high level of understanding without in person instruction on a plane board. You can pretty easily understand empirically what Bob Bush discovered, and Hogan talked about to Tom W, and that is that at P6 with a flat (or nearly so) left wrist that is perpendicular to the ground, that the left wrist is in same position at impact, ie flat but back to level or a little arched up, and perpendicular to the ground. The wrist joint has rotated 90 degrees from P6 to impact. But the left wrist has not flipped, ie the clubhead has not passed the hands, so that means in the horizontal dimension, the clubhead rpm speed is the same as the left arm, if it was faster, it would have passed the left hand, or the left wrist would be bent.Same thing goes for the left arm to chest angle. If you can see through the ASI, you can see that the left arm has not moved to right of mid-line until after impact, in fact, is super-connected, ie not moving independently of the body during Release In fact, the upper left arm is moving away from the target just before impact. This is the airplane propeller concept - rpm speed of hub and tip of propeller exactly the same, mph speed of the tip much faster than the hub.

That is a good start in forming a better understanding of Release and connection and Pivot Thrust. Helps a lot to de-construct the Hit Impulse and flipping and arm disconnection.

In reality though, since the body and club are moving in 3D space, it is not that simple.

Here are a few hints. Right spine Tilt and forearm rotation with wrists c0cked have an influence in speeding up the clubhead to a faster RPM speed. On the plane board you can clearly see what happens from P6 to impact, ie the shaft moves on the plane surface, and clubhead moves down, out and around (or toward the target). We have to move the CH down and out because the ball is on the ground and we are standing to the side of the ball. We move it around because we have to apply force to the back of the ball in the direction of the target.

But really, no one needs to dissect the golf swing to this extent unless it truly results in a better swing motion, because it results in a Deep Insight. Most golfers don't need to know this advanced technical stuff. And some golfers who think they need to know it are control freaks who have way, way too much conscious mind over-analysis going on, in my opinion.

What they do need to know, in my opinion, is to NOT throw the clubhead past the hands (flipping) before impact, and to NOT slide the arms past mid-line until after impact. And they DO need to actively Pivot thrust. If they are doing those three skills from P6, they dont need to know if in fact the clubhead is moving faster than the body in rpm speed - or not - and if so, by how much. I never saw a student improve their swing to any significant degree from intellectual understanding of this issue.
[/quote]

Jim,

Many thanks for the detailed response. I have your e-book and will try to understand the concept of "super connection". What I noticed though is that Hogan, unlike a typical golfer, kept the arms-body connection and the torquing of the Pivot Thrust to beyond impact.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree about Hogan. His left arm did not start to pass mid-line until well after impact. The Weiskopf Hogan story is really helpful. But the concept is 100% counter-intuitive. When Tom shared that with me at Pebble in 1977, I said to him (and I am not kidding!) "... well that can't be right! Everybody knows you have to swing your arms freely across your chest during Release"...

[Silky]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437619246' post='12003820']
[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1437618780' post='12003776']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1437618112' post='12003684']
I cover this very interesting but illusion/mis-perception shrouded topic in the e-book. I call it Hand Switch and it is basically impossible to explain in words to a high level of understanding without in person instruction on a plane board. You can pretty easily understand empirically what Bob Bush discovered, and Hogan talked about to Tom W, and that is that at P6 with a flat (or nearly so) left wrist that is perpendicular to the ground, that the left wrist is in same position at impact, ie flat but back to level or a little arched up, and perpendicular to the ground. The wrist joint has rotated 90 degrees from P6 to impact. But the left wrist has not flipped, ie the clubhead has not passed the hands, so that means in the horizontal dimension, the clubhead rpm speed is the same as the left arm, if it was faster, it would have passed the left hand, or the left wrist would be bent.Same thing goes for the left arm to chest angle. If you can see through the ASI, you can see that the left arm has not moved to right of mid-line until after impact, in fact, is super-connected, ie not moving independently of the body during Release In fact, the upper left arm is moving away from the target just before impact. This is the airplane propeller concept - rpm speed of hub and tip of propeller exactly the same, mph speed of the tip much faster than the hub.

That is a good start in forming a better understanding of Release and connection and Pivot Thrust. Helps a lot to de-construct the Hit Impulse and flipping and arm disconnection.

In reality though, since the body and club are moving in 3D space, it is not that simple.

Here are a few hints. Right spine Tilt and forearm rotation with wrists c0cked have an influence in speeding up the clubhead to a faster RPM speed. On the plane board you can clearly see what happens from P6 to impact, ie the shaft moves on the plane surface, and clubhead moves down, out and around (or toward the target). We have to move the CH down and out because the ball is on the ground and we are standing to the side of the ball. We move it around because we have to apply force to the back of the ball in the direction of the target.

But really, no one needs to dissect the golf swing to this extent unless it truly results in a better swing motion, because it results in a Deep Insight. Most golfers don't need to know this advanced technical stuff. And some golfers who think they need to know it are control freaks who have way, way too much conscious mind over-analysis going on, in my opinion.

What they do need to know, in my opinion, is to NOT throw the clubhead past the hands (flipping) before impact, and to NOT slide the arms past mid-line until after impact. And they DO need to actively Pivot thrust. If they are doing those three skills from P6, they dont need to know if in fact the clubhead is moving faster than the body in rpm speed - or not - and if so, by how much. I never saw a student improve their swing to any significant degree from intellectual understanding of this issue.
[/quote]

Jim,

Many thanks for the detailed response. I have your e-book and will try to understand the concept of "super connection". What I noticed though is that Hogan, unlike a typical golfer, kept the arms-body connection and the torquing of the Pivot Thrust to beyond impact.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree about Hogan. His left arm did not start to pass mid-line until well after impact. The Weiskopf Hogan story is really helpful. But the concept is 100% counter-intuitive. When Tom shared that with me at Pebble in 1977, I said to him (and I am not kidding!) "... well that can't be right! Everybody knows you have to swing your arms freely across your chest during Release"...
[/quote]

Jim,
I do enjoy reading your anecdotes from your years of being in this field. Please keep them coming. I am about your age, and I have more time after retirement to understand the golf swing and treating it as a hobby, and having fun too. I wish I had the this knowledge since thirty years ago. Concerning the intellectual aspect of the golf swing, believe me, late in a round, with fatigue muscles and clouded feel channels, when the subconscious just wants to sit down and have a cold beer, my main reliance now is the knowledge, that is attempt to control the swing "intellectually". It serves me fine so far, some of the time, at least.