The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[mikah]

[quote name='divot tool' timestamp='1417726762' post='10543895']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1417698864' post='10541331']
[quote name='divot tool' timestamp='1417665524' post='10540383']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1417628834' post='10536865']
Of course you are right that there are no how to's to get into the zone. There are however some tips on how not to, the Inner Game books provide usefull insight in keeping the ego ( really anything other than the subconscious) engaged and none interfering.




Engaging/distracting the ego isn’t going to engage the subconscious.

We engage the subconscious directly.
Since we can only have one thought at any one time.
If we engage the subconscious there is no concern about other conscious thoughts, emotions.

We drive our cars with our subconscious, autonominously. We can engage in conversation, feel emotions, relive events while driving without it distracting driving.

Ever wonder why back seat drivers bug you so much?
Back seat drivers are causing you to consciously think about what and how you are driving. Cant drive that way.

Cant swing a golf club successfully that way either.
How many, how to books do we need to learn to drive subconsciously?

Ever drive on a long trip and when you reach your destination wonder where the time went, and what happened during all that time?
Isn’t that similar to what Sally Gunnell said after she crossed the finish line. ‘as if her life started again’
[/quote]

You're comparing a unique and complex motion involving the human body/mind to the act of driving a car? FYI, the car was designed intuitively and refined throughout the years, considering human factors, anthropometrics, ergonomics. etc. in other words. . .designed so that any able bodied person could drive it.


You seem to be believe that the golf swing is a 'natural' ability of humans, that it is uniquely innate?
[/quote]


tool,

you seem to have a unique ability to add 1 +1=0?

Humans have a natural innate ability to learn and perform complex movements subconsciously.
One of the most dangerous of those skills, performed subconsciously, is driving a vehicle..


FYI,golf clubs are designed intuitively and refined throughout the years, considering human factors, anthropometrics, ergonomics. etc. in other words. . .designed so that any able bodied person could swing them.

"When the traffic light turns red, conscious goal-directed control circuits will be aware that failure to stop could lead to unfortunate consequences, and that applying the brakes will achieve the desired outcome. Alternatively, habits are characterised in the case of a practiced driver, deeply engaged in conversation with a passenger, where the red stop-light somehow causes the brakes to be applied, while the green go-light sets the car in motion again. If, the driver is asked a few minutes later whether they stopped at the junction, he/she may have no memory of the event. "
[/quote]


[color=#282828]How insightful. . . . .and yet the majority of the golfing public would struggle to legitimately break 100 with [/color][i][b]golf clubs[/b][/i][color=#282828]. I suppose that speaks volumes about the "intuitiveness" of its design? Again, you may want to rethink that analogy considering their respective complexities or lack thereof. [/color]

[color=#282828]If the vast majority of the golfing public doesn't understand how to properly strike a golf ball with a [/color][b][i]golf club[/i][/b][color=#282828] . . .how are they even going to begin to consistently hit quality golf shots, let alone play '[i]subconsciously[/i]' at a high level? [/color]

[color=#282828]I think Jim and Kiwi have done their best to present the "Arm Swing Illusion" concept as a potential mental map, in which the conscious mind must wholly grasp in order for the subconscious mind to perform.[/color]
[/quote]


My point exactly, tool.

With proper golf instruction, golfers would improve.

About 90 people die in car accidents in USA, every day. Are you going to blame that on the design of our vehicles?

'designed for every one to be able to drive'

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1417738164' post='10544943']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1417736981' post='10544859']
[quote name='Michael C.' timestamp='1417735464' post='10544739']
"The conscious mind works too slow to issue effective instructions, particularly during the downswing. "

Thank you, Kiwi. This sentence is key for me, at least at this point in my journey of understanding. I may be being stubborn and/or in denial but, I have a few swing flaws or tendencies that I can correct during a round when they creep in. It may be because I've trained my SM to recognize and compensate after my CM identifies the miss. Maybe, I've yet to put the time in to train my brain to execute the correct movements. Some days things just don't sequence right. No one's swing is perfect, or if it is, it's not perfect every day.

This brings me to my next question. Is swing tempo on a full swing controlled by the SM or the CM? Some days I can swing as hard as I want. Other days, I need to slow my tempo down to get my sequencing correct. It seems to me that I consciously do this.
[/quote]

Great explanation by Kiwi!

Tempo is something one can control, again - but from Feel, and again - usually something that more advanced players can do more easily than high handicaps. But also another example of programming in and then getting out of the way and letting the SM/body perform. The more precision control required, and the faster the body parts are moving, the less voluntary control one has.

Some days your mind/body connection is strong, and your SM "gets the message" and other days it is weak, and never does get it. It is one of the main reasons why all golfers - of every skill level - can be so inconsistent from day to day.
[/quote]

Thank you for your explanations Jim and Kiwi.

I apologize if I'm getting redundant.
[/quote]

You aren't getting redundant.

Tempo is is one of the specific focal points that can be used for your conscious mind attention when swinging the club.

In his manual, Jim describes it as a wide focus mode that your concious mind can control. It is "the time it takes for your golf swing Pivot to complete, from start to finish."

When things go awry it is one of the things he prescribes focusing on.

Say one on the backswing and one on the downswing trying to match their duration.

[Lefthook]

This is a very interesting topic, Jim.

[size=4]I wholeheartedly agree with you on the limitations of the verbal stuff. But there is a lot of verbal stuff that is hidden in the sub conscious.[/size][size=4]And also nonverbal bits and pieces that reflects how the golfer thinks he "should" hit the ball - that can be 100% conscious. [/size]

[size=4]It needs to be said that we do a lot more thinking than we are aware of. The stuff that is hidden under the surface is alive and kicking. Talented golfers seem to be able to change very fast, even if they need to work through teaching flaws, while some of the less gifted among us carry stuff that often block desirable changes.[/size]

[size=4]You brought up Freud, which was pretty interesting.[/size]

[size=4][attachment=2522849:Freud.jpg][/size]

Superego seeks perfection.It tells you the difference between right and wrong. Includes a lot of norms and standards. The norms which are imposed on you from your mother (especially) but also from other significant people and later from yourself. [size=4]It is how you feel and think that you "should" behave. Most of it is subconscious.[/size]

Id is the disorganized, raw part of our personality. Seeks to avoid pain and achieve happiness and pleasure.


[size=4]Ego is the "decision maker" It tries to satisfy Id, but under realistic conditions. So the end result is typically a compromise between id and superego. Personality problems appear because of large conflicts between id and superego.[/size]

[size=4]Freud weren't a golfer, and he wasn't even into cognitive psychology, but if he was into both, perhaps he would have made a golf psyche theory as well based on the same form. Something like this, perhaps:[/size]

[size=4][attachment=2522873:Freud golf.jpg][/size]

[size=4]"Should" represents the golfer's personal swing theory. Verbal ques, outside images, whatever makes up how he thinks he should hit the ball. "Natural" could be motor skills and inside, kinetic images etc. What the golfer is able to do. Obviously both components will have their flaws and limitations. "Result" will be the outcome of a dialog between the two, or a compromise. [/size][size=4]Some people have better understanding than others. Some have better motor skills - and some times there is a huge conflict between the two, while at other times they support each other.. Decent golfers who play a lot with not so great golf swings tend to be able to stabilize the result, even though there are shortcomings "everywhere".[/size]

[size=4]When a golfer tries to improve his swing, new ideas enters the "should" section. But a lot of old ideas are still intact. So the total understanding can become worse even though the new pieces are of the right kind. Even if the "should" part gets better overall, initially it will tend to [/size][size=4]increase the conflict between motor skills and intentions, and the "result" will suffer. But if the intentions are effective and the motor skills are developed to support the intentions, long lasting improvements should be expected.[/size]

[size=4]Lots of holes in this draft of a "theory" I know. It's just a few thoughts that came up when Jim brought up the old man. Feel free to tear it apart [/size]

[Millbrook]

A couple of weeks ago I contacted Jim because I'd had a weird experience and was going to post a topic seeking help. It would have involved discussion of the Swing Map and I wanted to check if it was a term he had created and to ask for an explanation of what it meant.

I didn't want to start a discussion with an incorrect understanding which would have been a disservice to his work and contribution on this board. I'll highlight the weird experience in a seperate post but this was Jims reply;

Hi Paul - i created the term Swing Map about 15 years ago as a more vivid way of representing to my students the simple fact that their body moves according to complex and high speed instructions from the subconscious mind, in accord with latest research from Neuroscience and backed up the ancient intuitive understanding of Asian martial arts tradition.

The Map is composed of visual images, and deep-rooted beliefs or conclusions that the golfer has arrived at through learning, experience and instruction about the golf swing, and also some natural beliefs or concepts, like Hit Impulse, Steering Impulse and a few others. The swing concepts are mainly about the shape of the swing (geometry or plane), how the club is supposed to be move, impact, power and basic body mechanics. Those concepts/mental pictures literally create the body mechanics of the golfer when he is moving at normal swing speeds, ie involuntary motion.

In my teaching practice, one of the first things I do is to try to define what images/concepts are present in the Map, based on ball flight and body and club motion. Then the coaching process is all about helping the student to identify the "toxic" or "destructivve" or "false" images/concepts in one of those key areas like power or swing shape or impact, and then breakthrough to the same understanding a tour pro would have in his or her Swing Map. I call that light bulb moment "Deep Insight". That is the essential first step.

Then exercises and drills to "delete" the toxic concepts/images and replace them with the tour pro or correct and effective images/concepts.

The whole process is based on the mind/body connection model, a coaching model for the 21st century.

What the student believes at the intellectual or conscious mind level has really almost no importance. I see students all the time with a ton of purely theoretical knowledge - a lot of it quite accurate - with awful golf swings!

You can qoute me in your thread. Glad to help - it is a great topic.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, Given the way you have redirected the thread I thought I would post this here rather than in a new topic but if it is inappropriate to do so I will delete it if you prefer.

[Millbrook]

OK so what was the weird experience.

I was trying to improve synchronisation between my arms and body and was using Montes 9 to 3 drill from his shortgame video. I'd also read the post from iteach about the same so was incorporating both in a session at the range.

It was all going very well until I reverted to my normal swing (which is a three quarter swing for me). Somehow Steven Hawking had placed a black hole over my right shoulder and once my backswing got above 9 o'clock it just disappeared from my perception. Yes I could feel the club in my hands but I had no concept of what was happening.

It also meant that in transition and for the first part of my downswing I had no mental map of what was going on. Every once in a while I had a move I called the Lurch. It was as though I had completely lost track of what my body was doing and I lurched at the ball. It was also named after the character in The Adams Family, seeing him try to dance was how I felt when this action overcame me;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTRtscQow8U

Having once experienced this it became quite disconcerting and of course once experienced it would not go away but became worse because I was now aware of it. Hence the enquiry to Jim and the intent to ask for help.

Since then however I've worked on improving the issue and progress has been made, off to the range today for further work and I'll post some details of how things have changed shortly. It may help others or just reveal more personal weirdness - who knows.

[mikah]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1417774490' post='10546951']
OK so what was the weird experience.

I was trying to improve synchronisation between my arms and body and was using Montes 9 to 3 drill from his shortgame video. I'd also read the post from iteach about the same so was incorporating both in a session at the range.

It was all going very well until I reverted to my normal swing (which is a three quarter swing for me). Somehow Steven Hawking had placed a black hole over my right shoulder and once my backswing got above 9 o'clock it just disappeared from my perception. Yes I could feel the club in my hands but I had no concept of what was happening.

It also meant that in transition and for the first part of my downswing I had no mental map of what was going on. Every once in a while I had a move I called the Lurch. It was as though I had completely lost track of what my body was doing and I lurched at the ball. It was also named after the character in The Adams Family, seeing him try to dance was how I felt when this action overcame me;

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTRtscQow8U"]https://www.youtube....h?v=GTRtscQow8U[/url]

Having once experienced this it became quite disconcerting and of course once experienced it would not go away but became worse because I was now aware of it. Hence the enquiry to Jim and the intent to ask for help.

Since then however I've worked on improving the issue and progress has been made, off to the range today for further work and I'll post some details of how things have changed shortly. It may help others or just reveal more personal weirdness - who knows.
[/quote]

Mill,

IMO, Tiger Woods is going through the same thing.

Working on synchronizing lower and upper body, a NEW release.

All reactions that would happen autonomously, if we let them... BUT NO, so and so, says we can build all this from the ground up with the drills and Trackman, biomechanics etc.

UNTIL..... the subconscious gets tired of being over ruled and its LURCH, YIPS and Charles Barkley time.

Watch for the head dip before the DS begins. A sure thing the LURCH is coming.
The subconscious really likes conscious correction of that move?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxLkEPb5DzI

[Millbrook]

A severe example of the Hit Impulse perhaps.

Have you seen the after swing;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp81DbNWMe8

[Atrayn]

Actually, If your head dips from a caddy view, this IS evidence of a well synchronized swing....

I'm tired of listening to how Tiger shouldn't do this. There are extremes in everything. The head should drop as a result, not an intention.

The amount varies among players, but is evident in any golfer who knows how the lower body should work in the golf swing.

Can you over-do it? Certainly, especially if you are trying to use this as a way to increase club head speed.

 

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1417723511' post='10543507']
Good heavens. This is some deep (and very good) stuff.

Rare - we are hearing about physical motions/mechanics AND the internal mechanisms in the same thread. Wow.
[/quote]

Yes - and that blend of mechanics and psychology is the definition of a mind/body connection approach to golf teaching and golf learning.

Percy Boomer was the pioneer - he understood that there is mental/awareness component to learning mechanics (that is usually almost totally over-looked by traditional instruction) and that there is a physical component to aspects of the mental game, eg . how you "carry yourself" posturally has a huge effect on your mental state.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1417747064' post='10545811']
This is a very interesting topic, Jim.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the limitations of the verbal stuff. But there is a lot of verbal stuff that is hidden in the sub conscious.And also nonverbal bits and pieces that reflects how the golfer thinks he "should" hit the ball - that can be 100% conscious.

It needs to be said that we do a lot more thinking than we are aware of. The stuff that is hidden under the surface is alive and kicking. Talented golfers seem to be able to change very fast, even if they need to work through teaching flaws, while some of the less gifted among us carry stuff that often block desirable changes.

You brought up Freud, which was pretty interesting.

[attachment=2522849:Freud.jpg]

Superego seeks perfection.It tells you the difference between right and wrong. Includes a lot of norms and standards. The norms which are imposed on you from your mother (especially) but also from other significant people and later from yourself. It is how you feel and think that you "should" behave. Most of it is subconscious.

Id is the disorganized, raw part of our personality. Seeks to avoid pain and achieve happiness and pleasure.


Ego is the "decision maker" It tries to satisfy Id, but under realistic conditions. So the end result is typically a compromise between id and superego. Personality problems appear because of large conflicts between id and superego.

Freud weren't a golfer, and he wasn't even into cognitive psychology, but if he was into both, perhaps he would have made a golf psyche theory as well based on the same form. Something like this, perhaps:

[attachment=2522873:Freud golf.jpg]

"Should" represents the golfer's personal swing theory. Verbal ques, outside images, whatever makes up how he thinks he should hit the ball. "Natural" could be motor skills and inside, kinetic images etc. What the golfer is able to do. Obviously both components will have their flaws and limitations. "Result" will be the outcome of a dialog between the two, or a compromise. Some people have better understanding than others. Some have better motor skills - and some times there is a huge conflict between the two, while at other times they support each other.. Decent golfers who play a lot with not so great golf swings tend to be able to stabilize the result, even though there are shortcomings "everywhere".

When a golfer tries to improve his swing, new ideas enters the "should" section. But a lot of old ideas are still intact. So the total understanding can become worse even though the new pieces are of the right kind. Even if the "should" part gets better overall, initially it will tend to increase the conflict between motor skills and intentions, and the "result" will suffer. But if the intentions are effective and the motor skills are developed to support the intentions, long lasting improvements should be expected.

Lots of holes in this draft of a "theory" I know. It's just a few thoughts that came up when Jim brought up the old man. Feel free to tear it apart
[/quote]

I like it, Lefthook! The gap between the "should" and the existing motor habits is what the learning struggle is all about. To me, quality instruction is about finding creative ways of bridging that gap.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1417739174' post='10545045']
Don't know if its universally true, but I have been asked to "slow down" during a lesson which was video taped. Felt to me like I cut almost it in half - yet the instructor asked me again to dial it back -- suggesting I hadn't done so. It sure felt to me as though I had complied. Looking at the tape later on - he was right.

My "theory" is we are creatures of very deep habit. I "may" have slowed things down by the smallest fraction when asked the first time... but to me it "felt" like a lot more. This "timer" or "internal clock" thing between the SM and CM is a biggie. And to go one step deeper - much of it seems to center "mechanically" in the takeaway and transition. But the broader picture goes to this whole "letting go". I like the term used earlier - swing feels. This is a VERY different concept than swing thoughts. I appreciated Kiwi's comment along these lines.

Having had a good number of lessons over the years... my best instructors asked me numerous times to verbalize how a better swing felt.

My last little tidbit on all this... I've invested more than my share of practice sessions working on where and when TENSION occurs while tuning into this notion of swing "feels"... even kept a journal about it. Personally, I'm no bio-mechanic. I prefer (personally) not getting too wrapped up in which vertebrae specifically or which bone in my left foot does what at P-whatever. BUT, what I AM comfortable with is paying careful attention to when and where tension creeps into my address or swing motion. When I sort of "clear the slate" tension-wise, then the swing "feels" part seems to shine through. Do I pause here and there - check the mirror and look at a mechanical position or check my posture and such? YES. But the goal (to me) is to manage to hit such "marks" via tension-free and relaxed "flow".

BTW - the Zone book Jim... its on my list. Haven't read it... YET. Definitely will.
[/quote]

So this would be an example where your existing dominant habit for Tempo was so strong that your conscious intent to slow down was powerless to inhibit the habit.

One very important factor that is often over-looked is the role of emotion in really imprinting those dominant habits. Random Reinforcement Syndrome and stimulus-response conditioning do have a role in golf habit formation. When we hit a good shot with a particular body move or in this case, Tempo, we get happy, and when you link a behavior with an emotion, that behavior gets more deeply imprinted into habit mode. Which is why golfers - of the athletes I have taught over the years (I was a swimming coach and a martial arts teacher before I was a golf pro) often are the most difficult to work with in terms of making changes.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1417773268' post='10546941']
A couple of weeks ago I contacted Jim because I'd had a weird experience and was going to post a topic seeking help. It would have involved discussion of the Swing Map and I wanted to check if it was a term he had created and to ask for an explanation of what it meant.

I didn't want to start a discussion with an incorrect understanding which would have been a disservice to his work and contribution on this board. I'll highlight the weird experience in a seperate post but this was Jims reply;

Hi Paul - i created the term Swing Map about 15 years ago as a more vivid way of representing to my students the simple fact that their body moves according to complex and high speed instructions from the subconscious mind, in accord with latest research from Neuroscience and backed up the ancient intuitive understanding of Asian martial arts tradition.

The Map is composed of visual images, and deep-rooted beliefs or conclusions that the golfer has arrived at through learning, experience and instruction about the golf swing, and also some natural beliefs or concepts, like Hit Impulse, Steering Impulse and a few others. The swing concepts are mainly about the shape of the swing (geometry or plane), how the club is supposed to be move, impact, power and basic body mechanics. Those concepts/mental pictures literally create the body mechanics of the golfer when he is moving at normal swing speeds, ie involuntary motion.

In my teaching practice, one of the first things I do is to try to define what images/concepts are present in the Map, based on ball flight and body and club motion. Then the coaching process is all about helping the student to identify the "toxic" or "destructivve" or "false" images/concepts in one of those key areas like power or swing shape or impact, and then breakthrough to the same understanding a tour pro would have in his or her Swing Map. I call that light bulb moment "Deep Insight". That is the essential first step.

Then exercises and drills to "delete" the toxic concepts/images and replace them with the tour pro or correct and effective images/concepts.

The whole process is based on the mind/body connection model, a coaching model for the 21st century.

What the student believes at the intellectual or conscious mind level has really almost no importance. I see students all the time with a ton of purely theoretical knowledge - a lot of it quite accurate - with awful golf swings!

You can qoute me in your thread. Glad to help - it is a great topic.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, Given the way you have redirected the thread I thought I would post this here rather than in a new topic but if it is inappropriate to do so I will delete it if you prefer.
[/quote]

Not a problem with adding your experience to the thread. The thread is being opened up to other aspects of my teaching philosophy besides the arm swing illusion, as many members have asked for such a change.

The experience you describe in the second post on this is what I refer to as a "blind spot", an area of the swing where the mind/body connection is temporarily broken, kind of like a short circuit in a wire, and it is in these "blind spots" that the flinches and yips occur. Which is partially why I am so insistent on linking one's consciousness to a single focal point, from start to finish, with ZERO loss of focus on that focal point, because if you can do that, then there is no possibility of a "blind spot" happening, and thus no flinching.

[JNZ]

I am finally all caught up on this thread....phew! I now have copious notes I now need to edit.

I want to say thanks to Jim, Kiwi and all the other positive contributors, your help is very much appreciated. To those that go on about easier ways to swing, who has Jim worked with etc, frankly I don't care. I judge the effectiveness of this info by what it has done for me, and it has worked.

Jim,
I have a question re the Tilt Switch, I have a habit at transition of a slight move to the left .You can see it at 31 seconds in [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C7fwFLpHT8&feature=youtu.be&list=UUkf52lyJrHhCNq_pdI11byA"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C7fwFLpHT8&feature=youtu.be&list=UUkf52lyJrHhCNq_pdI11byA[/url]

Is that an issue worth worrying about and if so how might I overcome it?

[bscinstnct]

If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.

Albert Einstein

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1417925683' post='10555179']
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.

Albert Einstein
[/quote]

"Demanding that golf instruction be kept simple does not make it simple -- only incomplete and ineffective."

Homer Kelley

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='JNZ' timestamp='1417923144' post='10555021']
I am finally all caught up on this thread....phew! I now have copious notes I now need to edit.

I want to say thanks to Jim, Kiwi and all the other positive contributors, your help is very much appreciated. To those that go on about easier ways to swing, who has Jim worked with etc, frankly I don't care. I judge the effectiveness of this info by what it has done for me, and it has worked.

Jim,
I have a question re the Tilt Switch, I have a habit at transition of a slight move to the left .You can see it at 31 seconds in [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C7fwFLpHT8&feature=youtu.be&list=UUkf52lyJrHhCNq_pdI11byA"]https://www.youtube....rHhCNq_pdI11byA[/url]

Is that an issue worth worrying about and if so how might I overcome it?
[/quote]

Glad to hear the information in this thread has helped you so much!

You are not tilted right enough at the start and are tilting left - really back extension, but looks "left" from caddie view - at the Top and at start of Transition. Yes - it is not correct. The fix - as usual - is an actual lesson, coupled with a focused and aware mind.

[starsail85]

Jim

I believe you say that the rotation of the shoulder girdle is the main source of power here but do you think it could be beneficial to train the upper arms to get stronger through weight lifting ? If the push away is 45 degrees would working on a cable machine pulling arms back to the body from that 45 degree angle increase my power in anyway?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418049998' post='10561595']
Jim

I believe you say that the rotation of the shoulder girdle is the main source of power here but do you think it could be beneficial to train the upper arms to get stronger through weight lifting ? If the push away is 45 degrees would working on a cable machine pulling arms back to the body from that 45 degree angle increase my power in anyway?
[/quote]

In theory it could, but I don't recommend using the upper arms making a sideways across the chest motion on the forward swing as a power source, mainly because it is very difficult to do so and achieve a consistent and correct path and face angle and angle of attack. The only time I recommend that move is for super senior golfers with very restricted range of motion in their Pivot. Extreme Endomorph body types also have that option as a secondary power source, but even for those guys I usually only recommend a little bit of that action for the really talented athletes, ie guys who played a lot of baseball and/or hockey and have superior hand-eye that can be transfered from hitting a moving object to a stationary one. They use a different Swing Style than my preferred pattern for most folks, a Thrust style.

There is so much range of motion in that upper arm to shoulder joint, in all 3 dimensions, tough to hit the ball solidly and accurately. Using a Triangle connected to the Pivot is a much simpler and much more reliable way to consistent ballstriking, still with plenty of power, as long as you are reasonably flexible and strong in the Core, and can Pivot to a normal range of motion at a medium Tempo.

[starsail85]

So working the arm muscles in the gym wouldn't help. To bring that triangle back down harder as it reconnected with the pivot? Like a left hand axe chop.... am I thinking wrongly here?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418057006' post='10562123']
So working the arm muscles in the gym wouldn't help. To bring that triangle back down harder as it reconnected with the pivot? Like a left hand axe chop.... am I thinking wrongly here?
[/quote]

You don't need to do that move, although the Illusion makes it look like you do need to do something to "bring the arms down". The whole point of the Triangle and the arm pressures is to link up the arms to the pivot, especially the Core and the Shoulder Girdle, so that when you Pivot properly (tilts, lateral shift and rotation) the arms are brought down automatically by the Pivot. Of course this implies that you have achieved the proper Top of backswing position as a required pre-condition. Doing that creates the proper angles and body parts relationships for an effective forward swing.

If you are not in the proper position at the Top and have not established a good Triangle and arm pressures, then of course you will have to do something with your arms independently of the Pivot to get them "down". So many golfers struggle with that issue!

When you Tilt Switch and continue tilting to the right, as you shift weight forward and rotate the hips, Core and Shoulder Girdle, those three motions will bring your arms/club assembly down and forward into the P6 hitting position where the Release starts to occur, and those same three motions will bring the arms/club unit all the way through impact almost to the followthrough position.

[mikah]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418057006' post='10562123']
So working the arm muscles in the gym wouldn't help. To bring that triangle back down harder as it reconnected with the pivot? Like a left hand axe chop.... am I thinking wrongly here?
[/quote]



I think of it as a right hand(dominant) karate chop from the top.


Are you thinking along the lines of the Pete Cowan , Axe swing?

Either one falls within Gabrielle Wulf's external thinking/ movement effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDt6N0eF-T8


author Gabriele Wulf argues that the learning of new motor skills suffers when attentional focus is on the coordination of movements. When attention is directed to the desired movement effect, however, performance levels rise.


[url="http://www.humankinetics.com/products/all-products/attention-and-motor-skill-learning"]http://www.humankine...-skill-learning[/url]

[starsail85]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1418072524' post='10563627']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418057006' post='10562123']
So working the arm muscles in the gym wouldn't help. To bring that triangle back down harder as it reconnected with the pivot? Like a left hand axe chop.... am I thinking wrongly here?
[/quote]



I think of it as a right hand(dominant) karate chop from the top.


Are you thinking along the lines of the Pete Cowan , Axe swing?

Either one falls within Gabrielle Wulf's external thinking/ movement effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDt6N0eF-T8


author Gabriele Wulf argues that the learning of new motor skills suffers when attentional focus is on the coordination of movements. When attention is directed to the desired movement effect, however, performance levels rise.


[url="http://www.humankinetics.com/products/all-products/attention-and-motor-skill-learning"]http://www.humankine...-skill-learning[/url]
[/quote]

I was thinking more of left hand like I wanted to stab myself in my left hip

Looks interesting il have to check that out, thanks

[starsail85]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1418072524' post='10563627']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418057006' post='10562123']
So working the arm muscles in the gym wouldn't help. To bring that triangle back down harder as it reconnected with the pivot? Like a left hand axe chop.... am I thinking wrongly here?
[/quote]



I think of it as a right hand(dominant) karate chop from the top.


Are you thinking along the lines of the Pete Cowan , Axe swing?

Either one falls within Gabrielle Wulf's external thinking/ movement effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDt6N0eF-T8


author Gabriele Wulf argues that the learning of new motor skills suffers when attentional focus is on the coordination of movements. When attention is directed to the desired movement effect, however, performance levels rise.


[url="http://www.humankinetics.com/products/all-products/attention-and-motor-skill-learning"]http://www.humankine...-skill-learning[/url]
[/quote]

I was thinking more of left hand like I wanted to stab myself in my left hip

Looks interesting il have to check that out, thanks

[starsail85]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418058895' post='10562285']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418057006' post='10562123']
So working the arm muscles in the gym wouldn't help. To bring that triangle back down harder as it reconnected with the pivot? Like a left hand axe chop.... am I thinking wrongly here?
[/quote]

You don't need to do that move, although the Illusion makes it look like you do need to do something to "bring the arms down". The whole point of the Triangle and the arm pressures is to link up the arms to the pivot, especially the Core and the Shoulder Girdle, so that when you Pivot properly (tilts, lateral shift and rotation) the arms are brought down automatically by the Pivot. Of course this implies that you have achieved the proper Top of backswing position as a required pre-condition. Doing that creates the proper angles and body parts relationships for an effective forward swing.

If you are not in the proper position at the Top and have not established a good Triangle and arm pressures, then of course you will have to do something with your arms independently of the Pivot to get them "down". So many golfers struggle with that issue!

When you Tilt Switch and continue tilting to the right, as you shift weight forward and rotate the hips, Core and Shoulder Girdle, those three motions will bring your arms/club assembly down and forward into the P6 hitting position where the Release starts to occur, and those same three motions will bring the arms/club unit all the way through impact almost to the followthrough position.
[/quote]

Jim

Do these pressures help preserve the triangle against the disturbance of the pivot, seems to me like a strong pivot would want to make the triangle fall behind the body centre....

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418074757' post='10563833']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418058895' post='10562285']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418057006' post='10562123']
So working the arm muscles in the gym wouldn't help. To bring that triangle back down harder as it reconnected with the pivot? Like a left hand axe chop.... am I thinking wrongly here?
[/quote]

You don't need to do that move, although the Illusion makes it look like you do need to do something to "bring the arms down". The whole point of the Triangle and the arm pressures is to link up the arms to the pivot, especially the Core and the Shoulder Girdle, so that when you Pivot properly (tilts, lateral shift and rotation) the arms are brought down automatically by the Pivot. Of course this implies that you have achieved the proper Top of backswing position as a required pre-condition. Doing that creates the proper angles and body parts relationships for an effective forward swing.

If you are not in the proper position at the Top and have not established a good Triangle and arm pressures, then of course you will have to do something with your arms independently of the Pivot to get them "down". So many golfers struggle with that issue!

When you Tilt Switch and continue tilting to the right, as you shift weight forward and rotate the hips, Core and Shoulder Girdle, those three motions will bring your arms/club assembly down and forward into the P6 hitting position where the Release starts to occur, and those same three motions will bring the arms/club unit all the way through impact almost to the followthrough position.
[/quote]

Jim

Do these pressures help preserve the triangle against the disturbance of the pivot, seems to me like a strong pivot would want to make the triangle fall behind the body centre....
[/quote]

Yes - that is the whole point of the pressures, to prevent inertia from the Pivot to cause the arms to lag too far behind, and also for the opposite issue, to prevent the arms disconnecting and moving forward on their own.

Of course one can also be pivoting much too fast during Transition, and that alone will still cause the arms to lag behind too much. (Tiger's old issue). Pivot is not a single element too - it is tilting, shifting weight forward and then rotation in three main body parts - hips, core and shoulder girdle. If you have too much speed in one of those elements, especially the three rotational parts, compared to another component, you end up with arms lagging too much. Solution - for most golfers - is not to try to speed up the arms from independent sideways motion, but to slow down the too fast rotational part.

Very common for the Core to be totally inactive, ie not firing at all, which creates too much lagging in the shoulder girdle v hips.

You want a little bit of lag in the three rotational parts, but not too much. Pretty common for shoulder girdle to lag behind the hips, due to too fast hip speed and/or too slow core speed and/or too slow shoulder speed. Most good players equate a fast un-coiling of the shoulder girdle as "arm speed" since the two are connected, ie the Triangle. Shoulder girdle rotates in a smaller range of motion and creates the illusion of arms moving themselves independently, the Lever Illusion, or airplane propeller concept. End of lever (clubhead) moves much farther in space but power is coming from a tiny motion at the center of rotation.

[starsail85]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418078545' post='10564157']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418074757' post='10563833']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418058895' post='10562285']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418057006' post='10562123']
So working the arm muscles in the gym wouldn't help. To bring that triangle back down harder as it reconnected with the pivot? Like a left hand axe chop.... am I thinking wrongly here?
[/quote]

You don't need to do that move, although the Illusion makes it look like you do need to do something to "bring the arms down". The whole point of the Triangle and the arm pressures is to link up the arms to the pivot, especially the Core and the Shoulder Girdle, so that when you Pivot properly (tilts, lateral shift and rotation) the arms are brought down automatically by the Pivot. Of course this implies that you have achieved the proper Top of backswing position as a required pre-condition. Doing that creates the proper angles and body parts relationships for an effective forward swing.

If you are not in the proper position at the Top and have not established a good Triangle and arm pressures, then of course you will have to do something with your arms independently of the Pivot to get them "down". So many golfers struggle with that issue!

When you Tilt Switch and continue tilting to the right, as you shift weight forward and rotate the hips, Core and Shoulder Girdle, those three motions will bring your arms/club assembly down and forward into the P6 hitting position where the Release starts to occur, and those same three motions will bring the arms/club unit all the way through impact almost to the followthrough position.
[/quote]

Jim

Do these pressures help preserve the triangle against the disturbance of the pivot, seems to me like a strong pivot would want to make the triangle fall behind the body centre....
[/quote]

Yes - that is the whole point of the pressures, to prevent inertia from the Pivot to cause the arms to lag too far behind, and also for the opposite issue, to prevent the arms disconnecting and moving forward on their own.

Of course one can also be pivoting much too fast during Transition, and that alone will still cause the arms to lag behind too much. (Tiger's old issue). Pivot is not a single element too - it is tilting, shifting weight forward and then rotation in three main body parts - hips, core and shoulder girdle. If you have too much speed in one of those elements, especially the three rotational parts, compared to another component, you end up with arms lagging too much. Solution - for most golfers - is not to try to speed up the arms from independent sideways motion, but to slow down the too fast rotational part.

Very common for the Core to be totally inactive, ie not firing at all, which creates too much lagging in the shoulder girdle v hips.

You want a little bit of lag in the three rotational parts, but not too much. Pretty common for shoulder girdle to lag behind the hips, due to too fast hip speed and/or too slow core speed and/or too slow shoulder speed. Most good players equate a fast un-coiling of the shoulder girdle as "arm speed" since the two are connected, ie the Triangle. Shoulder girdle rotates in a smaller range of motion and creates the illusion of arms moving themselves independently, the Lever Illusion, or airplane propeller concept. End of lever (clubhead) moves much farther in space but power is coming from a tiny motion at the center of rotation.
[/quote]

So the transition has to be smooth acceleration of the pivot to reduce triangle lag? Great stuff as usual Jim

[JNZ]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1417989422' post='10558715']

You are not tilted right enough at the start and are tilting left - really back extension, but looks "left" from caddie view - at the Top and at start of Transition. Yes - it is not correct. The fix - as usual - is an actual lesson, coupled with a focused and aware mind.
[/quote]

Jim,
thanks for that, I should have figured that out myself, I expect I should be able to sort it.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418079164' post='10564223']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418078545' post='10564157']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418074757' post='10563833']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1418058895' post='10562285']
[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1418057006' post='10562123']
So working the arm muscles in the gym wouldn't help. To bring that triangle back down harder as it reconnected with the pivot? Like a left hand axe chop.... am I thinking wrongly here?
[/quote]

You don't need to do that move, although the Illusion makes it look like you do need to do something to "bring the arms down". The whole point of the Triangle and the arm pressures is to link up the arms to the pivot, especially the Core and the Shoulder Girdle, so that when you Pivot properly (tilts, lateral shift and rotation) the arms are brought down automatically by the Pivot. Of course this implies that you have achieved the proper Top of backswing position as a required pre-condition. Doing that creates the proper angles and body parts relationships for an effective forward swing.

If you are not in the proper position at the Top and have not established a good Triangle and arm pressures, then of course you will have to do something with your arms independently of the Pivot to get them "down". So many golfers struggle with that issue!

When you Tilt Switch and continue tilting to the right, as you shift weight forward and rotate the hips, Core and Shoulder Girdle, those three motions will bring your arms/club assembly down and forward into the P6 hitting position where the Release starts to occur, and those same three motions will bring the arms/club unit all the way through impact almost to the followthrough position.
[/quote]

Jim

Do these pressures help preserve the triangle against the disturbance of the pivot, seems to me like a strong pivot would want to make the triangle fall behind the body centre....
[/quote]

Yes - that is the whole point of the pressures, to prevent inertia from the Pivot to cause the arms to lag too far behind, and also for the opposite issue, to prevent the arms disconnecting and moving forward on their own.

Of course one can also be pivoting much too fast during Transition, and that alone will still cause the arms to lag behind too much. (Tiger's old issue). Pivot is not a single element too - it is tilting, shifting weight forward and then rotation in three main body parts - hips, core and shoulder girdle. If you have too much speed in one of those elements, especially the three rotational parts, compared to another component, you end up with arms lagging too much. Solution - for most golfers - is not to try to speed up the arms from independent sideways motion, but to slow down the too fast rotational part.

Very common for the Core to be totally inactive, ie not firing at all, which creates too much lagging in the shoulder girdle v hips.

You want a little bit of lag in the three rotational parts, but not too much. Pretty common for shoulder girdle to lag behind the hips, due to too fast hip speed and/or too slow core speed and/or too slow shoulder speed. Most good players equate a fast un-coiling of the shoulder girdle as "arm speed" since the two are connected, ie the Triangle. Shoulder girdle rotates in a smaller range of motion and creates the illusion of arms moving themselves independently, the Lever Illusion, or airplane propeller concept. End of lever (clubhead) moves much farther in space but power is coming from a tiny motion at the center of rotation.
[/quote]

So the transition has to be smooth acceleration of the pivot to reduce triangle lag? Great stuff as usual Jim
[/quote]

Yes - if Transition is too quick you can get too much arm lag.

[Mob]

Jim,
I just want to thank you for spending so much time sharing your views of the golf swing with us. I just came across this thread yesterday, spent a few hours only getting through the first 10 pages, then went into my garage to hit some balls. I was able to apply this process to my swing, although it is unclear to me if I am doing it correctly, but I did feel like I started making solid contact after about 20 shots. In general, I take shallow to no divots with my irons, and I started noticing that this swing change felt like I was hitting down on the ball more and compressing it more. Unfortunately, I have no idea from hitting into a net what the ball flight looks like, so I am hesitant to ingrain this swing change, without knowing what the ball flight is, in case I am doing it all completely wrong. I have a club fitter here who has a flightscope, and I may try and get on it, to confirm that the ball flight is appropriate, before I start getting used to it.

Thanks again for spending so much time on this with us.

[JasonFL]

Jim,

Whats your thoughts on holding the triangle that you setup with at address all the way until your shoulders force you to stop turning? This also includes the angle your hands and shaft make while at address. As your shoulders move, the entire triangle moves, and you effectively never lift your arms.

Ive been experimenting with this for the past few weeks. Ive notice a few things.

-The club head will stay outside of your hands until it reaches parallel to the ground or a little after.
[size=4]-Your right arm will eventually bend but not a whole lot.[/size]
[size=4]-Your hands stay in front of you the whole time (Pivot stops, arms stop, hands stop)[/size]
[size=4]-Your left shoulder works down/under your chin (cant really do anything other than that).[/size]
[size=4]-Your right wrist will set at the top without thinking about it.[/size]
[size=4]-The absolute deal killer is if you let anything other than your left side move first. Everything else pretty much does nothing, You just uncoil.[/size]

[size=4]I've never been hitting the ball better. From driver all the way to my 60. Infact my short clubs are going a little too far due to the lower ball flight (Prior I hit the ball as high as I did far).[/size]

[size=4]Is this similar to your swing theory? Or just bits and pieces of it?[/size]