The NBA basketball thread 2013-2014

[baseballfrk8998]

The SA/OKC series is all about home court, evidently. It's been a while since I've seen a series where the home team consistently played this much better than the road team. I mean we've seen 5 games and they've all been routes. We'll see if OKC can keep it going tomorrow night..

[somaplr]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1401409336' post='9392853']
NBA franchises are like bitcoin. Only worth that much because of scarcity, and not really based on anything tangible in the traditional business sense. People want to pay 2B dollars so they can be a big shot in the limelight. So the value of the Mavs or whatever went up a lot, but it's not like Cuban is going to sell his team anyway. I'm sure these guys make money on their teams, but not enough to merit the asking price.
[/quote]

It's the ultimate "I have the biggest !@#$" purchase you can make in life

[scratchswinger]

If the Clippers renew their TV deal in the coming months for 5 billion it becomes a very smart buisness move. Many laughed at the Dodgers selling price until they signed a TV deal worth double the team price.

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1401487527' post='9398801']
If the Clippers renew their TV deal in the coming months for 5 billion it becomes a very smart buisness move. Many laughed at the Dodgers selling price until they signed a TV deal worth double the team price.
[/quote]

Although that hasn't exactly gone their way yet. I love the dodgers but I'm with the providers on this issue.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1401487527' post='9398801']
If the Clippers renew their TV deal in the coming months for 5 billion it becomes a very smart buisness move. Many laughed at the Dodgers selling price until they signed a TV deal worth double the team price.
[/quote]

I don't know all the details of owning a team obviously, but i still think it's an overpay. I think Zach Lowe hypothesized the Lakers might be worth 4-5B after this deal. Their TV deal is 3B for 20 years, then you get what you make from the team, plus any revenue sharing, minus salaries/expenses and luxury tax payments

I still bet if you bought the Lakers, assuming you don't flip them for a profit, you're looking at 20-25 years before you get your money back

That's a long time to depend on a large steady stream of income, in any market

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='baseballfrk8998' timestamp='1401456018' post='9395541']
The SA/OKC series is all about home court, evidently. It's been a while since I've seen a series where the home team consistently played this much better than the road team. I mean we've seen 5 games and they've all been routes. We'll see if OKC can keep it going tomorrow night..
[/quote]

I can't recall a series, much less a conference finals between 2 very good teams, where through 5 games there was not a competitive 4th quarter in any of them. I mean it's like teams trading 5-0 wins in hockey. The Thunder have two 30 point losses i believe. And in both their home wins the Spurs rested their starters in the 4th. I believe game 3 OKC was up by 27 points in the 4th at one point.

Very strange series.

The Spurs looked awesome in game 5, i did not check the end game stats but i believe they hit 7 consecutive shots at 2 different points in the first half. Their role players were hitting 3's and their ball movement was very good

How about Boris Diaw? Do you remember that Charlotte basically gave the Spurs this guy for nothing? He was like an in-season cut where they just basically gave him away and the Spurs signed him IIRC. He has looked great the past few games, and has a really weird game where he can cover bigs, hit corner 3's, dribble drive. Weird skillset

[TheGameChanger]

The Pacers are in for a long off season

[baseballfrk8998]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1401537453' post='9401737']
[quote name='baseballfrk8998' timestamp='1401456018' post='9395541']
The SA/OKC series is all about home court, evidently. It's been a while since I've seen a series where the home team consistently played this much better than the road team. I mean we've seen 5 games and they've all been routes. We'll see if OKC can keep it going tomorrow night..
[/quote]

I can't recall a series, much less a conference finals between 2 very good teams, where through 5 games there was not a competitive 4th quarter in any of them. I mean it's like teams trading 5-0 wins in hockey. The Thunder have two 30 point losses i believe. And in both their home wins the Spurs rested their starters in the 4th. I believe game 3 OKC was up by 27 points in the 4th at one point.

Very strange series.

The Spurs looked awesome in game 5, i did not check the end game stats but i believe they hit 7 consecutive shots at 2 different points in the first half. Their role players were hitting 3's and their ball movement was very good

How about Boris Diaw? Do you remember that Charlotte basically gave the Spurs this guy for nothing? He was like an in-season cut where they just basically gave him away and the Spurs signed him IIRC. He has looked great the past few games, and has a really weird game where he can cover bigs, hit corner 3's, dribble drive. Weird skillset
[/quote]

I had a guy the other day (Spurs fan) tell me that Diaw was as good as Ibaka.. I almost lost it. You'd have been proud of my rebuttal Jeff.

[Dizz]

Diaw had a pretty solid series and an awesome Game 6. Like Jeff said, he's got a unique skill set...

Obviously I would rather have a young Ibaka and the stuff he brings to the table.... but Diaw is no slouch. He is definitely a most versatile players than Serge.

[MtlJeff]

I'm really excited for the finals. I do like OKC so it's too bad to see them come up short again. I hope they can do something in the offseason to address some of their depth issues.

But this finals should be outstanding. The Spurs are better then a year ago there's no question. They have more ballhandlers, more consistent shooters, Manu is coming in playing well, Duncan and Splitter are playing well together. Parker's injury is ankle so i'm guessing he'll be ready. And the Spurs should handle it better this year if they put Lebron on him. Meanwhile the Spurs can put Kawhi on Lebron, Green on Wade....They match up really well

I think the Spurs should be a slight favorite.

But it also wouldn't surprise me if Rashard Lewis hit 9 threes in one game, and Norris Cole scores 36 in another. The Heat always seem to have others step up when the big 3 isn't enough. Basically it's like the Thunder....except the exact opposite

[MtlJeff]

Speaking of Ibaka, his worth will always be very difficult for people, even serious fans, to ascertain. On the one hand, he plays with Westbrook and Durant and will probably never average more then 15-16 a game. He doesn't really have post up moves, he's not as skilled an interior passer as his own teammate Nick Collison (and Steven Adams has a lot of potential in that regard too)

He's basically a defensive monster whose offensive game is midrange shots and dunks.

Guys like him become more indispensable when surrounded by talented guys who do other things

I said a couple of pages back that Kawhi Leonard should be on team USA, because when you have enough scorers, you need a guy to play smothering defense, dive on the floor etc...

Ibaka is like a rich man's power forward version of Leonard

[scratchswinger]

Hard to imagine the two time champs with by far the best player on earth being underdogs, but I do see what you saying. Vegas actually has it as even.

I think it all comes down to if SA can manage Miamis runs. I think I said it on one of the first few pages, teams will be tied with Miami and before you know it Miami is up 8. Spurts are their bread and butter.

[MtlJeff]

Agreed it's very tough to bet against Lebron, he is the man

I just think SA is a better team. But if Lebron goes beast mode and the Heat win. Not like that will be surprising either

[TheGameChanger]

Go Spurs

[scratchswinger]

First pick in the draft, Kobe and Duncan are on the board, you currently have zero players on the roster. Who are you taking?

[baseballfrk8998]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1401752723' post='9417257']
First pick in the draft, Kobe and Duncan are on the board, you currently have zero players on the roster. Who are you taking?
[/quote]

LeBron.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1401752723' post='9417257']
First pick in the draft, Kobe and Duncan are on the board, you currently have zero players on the roster. Who are you taking?
[/quote]

I know this is a trap question because you are a Lakers and Kobe fan. But if the question is "Knowing what we know about their careers, in retrospect who would you take first", i think the answer is Duncan. I don't think Kobe is necessarily a wrong choice.

My feelings are that a 2 way big man can positively impact a team in more ways then another position. They can anchor a defense whereas even a terrific defensive guard can be brought away from the play.

Duncan has won 4 titles as the best player on his team, the early teams were not necessarily that deep. The Spurs have won the winning percentage equivalent of 50+ games in 17 consecutive seasons which is just insane (2 of the seasons were strike shortened). And the entire time he has been the leader of a top defense. Even contending for a DPOY award late in his 30's. Even today he is the best overall player on the Spurs at 38

Kobe earlier in his career was a 2-way terror (his playoff performance in one season was alltime pantheon good, the year he threw up like a 48-12 in a closeout game), but later in his career didn't play defense as much. I also believe (i know you disagree) that he could also be a difficult teammate who didn't handle deferring as well as Duncan does

My personal belief is that if the Spurs win this year Duncan has a solid argument that he has passed Bird and Magic into possibly the 3rd best player of all time

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1401754381' post='9417461']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1401752723' post='9417257']
First pick in the draft, Kobe and Duncan are on the board, you currently have zero players on the roster. Who are you taking?
[/quote]

I know this is a trap question because you are a Lakers and Kobe fan. But if the question is "Knowing what we know about their careers, in retrospect who would you take first", i think the answer is Duncan. I don't think Kobe is necessarily a wrong choice.

My feelings are that a 2 way big man can positively impact a team in more ways then another position. They can anchor a defense whereas even a terrific defensive guard can be brought away from the play.

Duncan has won 4 titles as the best player on his team, the early teams were not necessarily that deep. The Spurs have won the winning percentage equivalent of 50+ games in 17 consecutive seasons which is just insane (2 of the seasons were strike shortened). And the entire time he has been the leader of a top defense. Even contending for a DPOY award late in his 30's. Even today he is the best overall player on the Spurs at 38

Kobe earlier in his career was a 2-way terror (his playoff performance in one season was alltime pantheon good, the year he threw up like a 48-12 in a closeout game), but later in his career didn't play defense as much. I also believe (i know you disagree) that he could also be a difficult teammate who didn't handle deferring as well as Duncan does

My personal belief is that if the Spurs win this year Duncan has a solid argument that he has passed Bird and Magic into possibly the 3rd best player of all time
[/quote]

Not a trap question. Just trying to get the discussion going as this is a huge story line IMO being that Kobe/ Duncan are the two best of their generation. Duncan is arguably the best PF ever and Kobe is the best guard not named MJ. Duncan is kind of the tortes and Kobe is the hair, Duncan while great was consistently really good. Kobe on the other hand had seasons of legendary status, he averaged 35 5 5 and 3 steals in one season. I think Kobe passed Bird and Magic a few seasons ago to be honest with you and I think Bird and Magic know that.... Magic has straight up said that Kobe is the greatest Laker ever.

I think the only reason this is even a question is because Duncan is known as a great teammate and Kobe is known as a difficult teammate. I am not saying by any means that is not important but I do believe that is the only reason anyone could side with Duncan. When it comes down to who can do what on the court its a simple answer. Kobe went for 81 in one game, dropped 63 after three quarters, Duncan can put that in his defensive anchor pipe and smoke it all night....

Also the whole Shaq vs Kobe thing sits in peoples minds since Shaq was the one sent packing, it's somehow Kobe's fault. I put that thing on 60% Shaq, 30% Kobe 10% Phil. Shaq is the one that tried to hold Kobe back during his first few years. Shaq also waited until right before his last season to get surgery so he could enjoy his summer. He then came into the season out of shape, couldn't move laterally at all and the Lakers loose to the Pistons because of that. That sent Kobe off, could he have handled better? Yes.... But he wants to win and when you have a beast of a force like Shaq that does not apply himself it burns at a guy like Kobe.... I just wonder how many chips those two left on the table, it's honestly one of the biggest disappointments ever in the NBA.

[MtlJeff]

I do agree with you on Shaq/Kobe. How many titles could they have won if they stayed together? Shaq won with Wade in Miami, why couldn't that have been Kobe in LA again? It could have been. They maybe could have done things that would have both of them in a different stratosphere.

Kobe in the 2001 playoffs (just looked it up) averaged 29-7-6 on 47% shooting. He's generally been a 27+ points guy with 5+ assists and rebounds while in his prime. And very good perimeter defense. You also can't overlook that they made 3 consecutive finals with him as the undisputed best player on the team

I think Duncan's stats don't do him justice. You can look at the 23-12's he put up in his prime, and it doesn't look as great as 28-6-5 maybe. But look at the impact Serge Ibaka's presence had on the Thunder, look how much their defense suffered with him off the floor. Now imagine Serge Ibaka was averaging 23-12 and you were running your offense through him. That was Tim Duncan in his prime

[scratchswinger]

Imagine KD and Westbrook morphed into a super human. That's Kobe in his prime.

[MtlJeff]

I think i mentioned it probably 30 pages ago in some conversation, but the list of guys who've won titles while being the unquestioned best player on their team is a fairly small one. It makes guys like Duncan and Kobe historically good. Even Lebron i would only rank his last title as him being "the undisputed man". The first title was still a bit before Wade went on the reduced minute plan

In the last 20 years:

-Hakeem
-Jordan
-Duncan
-Shaq (the first title)
-Kobe
-Dirk
-Lebron

That's an exclusive list. The only other titles (Boston, Detroit, First Miami title) were more true conglomerates or dual stars

That's why it's crazy when guys talk about "oh you can win a championship with this guy or that guy"....The list of guys who can truly carry a team as the alpha dog is very small

[scratchswinger]

One thing working against Kobe in the BOG (Best of Generation) discussion is that Kobe was in LA playing for the Lakers, with Phil and Shaq. While TD was in SA with a C+ supporting class and an A+ coach. If TD gets 5 under those circumstances vs Kobe's 5 it's a straw in the cap of Duncan. If Kobe can get 6 or if Duncan ends at 4 I think the discussion is mute except for the really true basketball purest like Jeff that think of the game in the eyes of a GM and see the true value of a guy like Duncan.

[TheGameChanger]

OKC are going to be very interesting this off season. If I was OKC I would move Westbrook to SG and sign Kirk Hinrich in Free Agency. Hope to Draft Payne and Glen Robinson,

Hinrich
Westbrook
Durant
Ibaka
Adams

with Jackson,Lamb,Collinson,Jones,Payne,Robinson off the Bench.

[Dizz]

The Kobe conversation is always interesting to me because the reason I dislike him is from the way he's acted over the years.

Like you guys said him and Shaq could be in another bracket had they found a way to co-exist.

Kobe's Lakers never did a whole lot between Shaq and Gasol... And I remember Pop freaked out at the league when that trade went through as he probably knew what was going to happen.

Kobe did average 35 per year but it was on a TON of shots. He's never really been a high shooting % guy like Jordan was... And now KD cracks 50% and LeBron 55-57% the last couple years.

I think Kobe and LeBron both made some pretty bad teams into playoff contenders. Hell just making it to the Finals in Cleveland was remarkable to watch for the team they had.

I remember Barkley having a pretty strong opinion of what would happen if Kobe and LeBron switched teams... This was before LBJ had a ring and was playing LA on a TNT Thursday night.

I mean do you think a guy like Durant or even Paul George would have had the same success as Kobe playing with his supporting casts? If you swap a prime Kobe on today's Pacers of Thunder and take away PG and KD does anything change?

When you're looking at these players legacies there seems to be so much that goes into it. You need those supporting casts to get it done. You need luck here and there which can totally change the way a player is looked at from the outside. Even something a like the Finals last season when Ray hit that 3 to send Game 7 to OT. LeBron goes on to win another Finals MVP when he could have easily went home a loser too.

For what it's worth I've never been a big Kobe fan.

[tocino]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1401752723' post='9417257']
First pick in the draft, Kobe and Duncan are on the board, you currently have zero players on the roster. Who are you taking?
[/quote]

Duncan, it's a lot harder to find a "big" with his skill set. I'm not saying Kobe-type players are plentiful, but it's easier to find a SG/swingman who could get closer to Kobe's stats than Duncan's

[tocino]

[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1401808038' post='9421211']
The Kobe conversation is always interesting to me because the reason I dislike him is from the way he's acted over the years.

Like you guys said him and Shaq could be in another bracket had they found a way to co-exist.

Kobe's Lakers never did a whole lot between Shaq and Gasol... And I remember Pop freaked out at the league when that trade went through as he probably knew what was going to happen.

Kobe did average 35 per year but it was on a TON of shots. He's never really been a high shooting % guy like Jordan was... And now KD cracks 50% and LeBron 55-57% the last couple years.

I think Kobe and LeBron both made some pretty bad teams into playoff contenders. Hell just making it to the Finals in Cleveland was remarkable to watch for the team they had.

I remember Barkley having a pretty strong opinion of what would happen if Kobe and LeBron switched teams... This was before LBJ had a ring and was playing LA on a TNT Thursday night.

I mean do you think a guy like Durant or even Paul George would have had the same success as Kobe playing with his supporting casts? [b]If you swap a prime Kobe on today's Pacers of Thunder and take away PG and KD does anything change?[/b]

When you're looking at these players legacies there seems to be so much that goes into it. You need those supporting casts to get it done. You need luck here and there which can totally change the way a player is looked at from the outside. Even something a like the Finals last season when Ray hit that 3 to send Game 7 to OT. LeBron goes on to win another Finals MVP when he could have easily went home a loser too.

For what it's worth I've never been a big Kobe fan.
[/quote]

I'm not sure about the OKC series, but I think if you put a prime Kobe as a replacement to George in the Pacers/Heat series, the Pacers win. I doubt they lose game 2 with him on the roster

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='tocino' timestamp='1401810062' post='9421515']
[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1401808038' post='9421211']
The Kobe conversation is always interesting to me because the reason I dislike him is from the way he's acted over the years.

Like you guys said him and Shaq could be in another bracket had they found a way to co-exist.

Kobe's Lakers never did a whole lot between Shaq and Gasol... And I remember Pop freaked out at the league when that trade went through as he probably knew what was going to happen.

Kobe did average 35 per year but it was on a TON of shots. He's never really been a high shooting % guy like Jordan was... And now KD cracks 50% and LeBron 55-57% the last couple years.

I think Kobe and LeBron both made some pretty bad teams into playoff contenders. Hell just making it to the Finals in Cleveland was remarkable to watch for the team they had.

I remember Barkley having a pretty strong opinion of what would happen if Kobe and LeBron switched teams... This was before LBJ had a ring and was playing LA on a TNT Thursday night.

I mean do you think a guy like Durant or even Paul George would have had the same success as Kobe playing with his supporting casts? [b]If you swap a prime Kobe on today's Pacers of Thunder and take away PG and KD does anything change?[/b]

When you're looking at these players legacies there seems to be so much that goes into it. You need those supporting casts to get it done. You need luck here and there which can totally change the way a player is looked at from the outside. Even something a like the Finals last season when Ray hit that 3 to send Game 7 to OT. LeBron goes on to win another Finals MVP when he could have easily went home a loser too.

For what it's worth I've never been a big Kobe fan.
[/quote]

I'm not sure about the OKC series, but I think if you put a prime Kobe as a replacement to George in the Pacers/Heat series, the Pacers win. I doubt they lose game 2 with him on the roster
[/quote]

I agree. Because Indiana has trouble scoring and Kobe would be a direct fix to that problem.

To the statement that Magic said Kobe is best Laker in history. Sounds like Magic being diplomatic. Quite frankly, I can't imagine anyone taking Kobe over Magic. Magic might be the best player in history in the department of making players around him better.

And I admit that I'm not a Kobe fan, but I certainly appreciate how good he was in his prime.

[Dizz]

Interesting to think about and debate how teams would be if player A and played B swapped....

The comment I was referring to by Sir Charles basically said the Lakers with LeBron instead of Kobe would win 70+ games.... That's what he said anyway....

He also said that the Cavs with Kobe that year would not be the 66 win team they ended up being because of the supporting cast. He said Kobe would lead the league in scoring like he did when the Lakers had a similar roster.

This is not me putting down Kobe either but these conversations are fun IMO because they can never really happen and it's all speculation.

Everyone think Kobe and Duncan are both top 5 ever? LeBron yet? Shaq?

[scratchswinger]

Paul George should not be mentioned in the same book as Kobe and KD is not in the same chapter (yet).

[tocino]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1401816085' post='9422357']
Paul George should not be mentioned in the same book as Kobe and KD is not in the same chapter (yet).
[/quote]

agreed. PG could end up being a better defender but will never have that killer instinct or knack for scoring that Kobe has. KD has the potential to be a superior scorer to Kobe due to his higher efficiency, but will never be the defender that Kobe was in his prime.

Can you imagine if you could combine George's D and KD's O into one player? You'd have a 6'9", ~230 lbs monster swingman! About the only thing missing would be the killer instinct (and only one guy did that better than Kobe, and that's Jordan)

p.s. i hate Kobe