Wishon Wedges

RanchobobRanchobob Seventeen plane swingMembers Posts: 623
Can someone please explain the difference between Tom Wishon's PCF Micro Tour and Micro Groove HM wedges and weigh them against, say, Cleveland's 588 line of wedges and my current oil can Vokey wedges?



FWIW, my current wedges are (loft/bounce) 52/8, 56/10, 60/4.



Thank you!

Comments

  • MarvinTheMartianMarvinTheMartian Members Posts: 150
    To me, the Wishons have more offset than OEM wedges.
  • TKSTKS Members Posts: 209 ✭✭
    The pcfs are a touch smaller and more round than the 588, and provide more spin imo.

    The hm series are even more rounded on the toe, to my eye more offset than the pcf.

    Both play everybit as good as any wedge.
    All Wishon, all the time:
    919THI 11* Black Driver, Red Shaft - S
    919F/D, Black Shaft
    775 18* hyb, Interflexx Shaft
    590 4iron, Black hybd Shaft
    5-SW Sterlings S300's
    PCF Micro 58*
    S2R #5 putter Double Bend Shaft
    Softer Urethane balls - too many to list
  • TomWishonTomWishon Sponsors Posts: 3,653 ✭✭
    Ranchobob wrote:


    Can someone please explain the difference between Tom Wishon's PCF Micro Tour and Micro Groove HM wedges and weigh them against, say, Cleveland's 588 line of wedges and my current oil can Vokey wedges?



    FWIW, my current wedges are (loft/bounce) 52/8, 56/10, 60/4.



    Thank you!




    No one will answer this as well as I can, so here goes.



    PCF is designed with more of a rounder face profile, while the HM is designed with what the industry likes to call more of a "teardrop" profile. What that means is that the height of the heel side of the face is a little taller on the PCF than on the HM, so the shape of the top of the face profile is more rounded on the PCF but then a little less rounded and steeper as it descends to the shorter heel height on the HM. Wedges like the Vokey or Cleveland are considered to be more of a tear drop profile than rounded profile, for a reference point for you.



    All my wedges are designed with 2mm offset, which is what the industry considers to be a visual non offset design. To most golfers when you get the offset to be less than 2mm, the leading edge starts to look like it is slightly out in front of the hosel. This just happens because of an optical illusion created by both eyes focused on the head.



    The Micro Grooves are a scoreline design I developed some years ago to try to create a line design that could be conforming to the rules but still be able to put more lines in contact with the surface of the ball at impact. Conventional lines as made by the other companies are most typically manufactured to be 0.8mm wide (0.0315") X either 2.6mm ot 2.8mm spacing apart from edge to edge. I quote metric because the head making factories tend to tool in metric than in imperial.



    The Micro Grooves are 0.6mm wide X 2.3mm spacing. So that means at impact there are 5 Micro Grooves in contact with the surface of the ball while with the conventional line design, there are 3 lines in contact with the ball. You can test this yourself using impact labels. So if you believe that the top edges of the scorelines bring about some of the backspin in a shot, then you have a tiny chance for a little more spin with 2 more lines in contact with the ball's surface at impact.



    However, the vast majority of spin does come from the roughness of the flat areas between the lines. So on the PCF's we do a conventional circular milling pattern. And on the HM's we use a laser etch cut horizontal "milling".



    With the new HM's that just came out, the sole design is quite different with a zero bounce heel and increased bounce on the very front center of the leading edge. PCF sole design has a zero bounce heel but the rest of the sole is a conventional single bounce grind design.



    And that's about it in a nutshell, so I hope this helps,



    TOM
  • RanchobobRanchobob Seventeen plane swing Members Posts: 623
    Tom, thank you for taking the time to explain it.



    Can you clarify the bounce on your wedges for me? I noticed you don't have any specs cited.



    Thanks again!
  • TomWishonTomWishon Sponsors Posts: 3,653 ✭✭
    Ranchobob wrote:


    Tom, thank you for taking the time to explain it.



    Can you clarify the bounce on your wedges for me? I noticed you don't have any specs cited.



    Thanks again!




    The specs for the sole angle of our wedges are on the specs sheet for each wedge model on our website in the green and white charts. Perhaps you were looking for the term BOUNCE and did not realize that SOLE ANGLE is the actual name of the spec for the angle of the sole for which bounce is a condition of the sole angle. Lots of golfers today are not aware of this and think the actual name of the spec is bounce.



    At any rate, we now do a zero bounce heel sole angle for both the HM and PCF wedge families to enable the golfer to roll the face open and not have the leading edge rise up off the ground to potentially lead to more chance of bladed shots when you want to hit that open face finesse cut shot off closely mown grass. This zero bounce heel grind extends @ 20-25mm in from the heel after which the primary bounce on the sole angle is there.



    PCF 52 is 5* bounce for the primary sole angle, the 56 is 12*, the 60* is 8*. HM Series 52 is 6* bounce, the 56 is 12* and the 60 is 10*.
  • RanchobobRanchobob Seventeen plane swing Members Posts: 623
    Awesome, Tom. Thank you so much!



    (And you're right, I didn't know sole angle = bounce.)
  • js2019js2019 Members Posts: 2
    TomWishon wrote:

    Ranchobob wrote:


    Tom, thank you for taking the time to explain it.



    Can you clarify the bounce on your wedges for me? I noticed you don't have any specs cited.



    Thanks again!




    The specs for the sole angle of our wedges are on the specs sheet for each wedge model on our website in the green and white charts. Perhaps you were looking for the term BOUNCE and did not realize that SOLE ANGLE is the actual name of the spec for the angle of the sole for which bounce is a condition of the sole angle. Lots of golfers today are not aware of this and think the actual name of the spec is bounce.



    At any rate, we now do a zero bounce heel sole angle for both the HM and PCF wedge families to enable the golfer to roll the face open and not have the leading edge rise up off the ground to potentially lead to more chance of bladed shots when you want to hit that open face finesse cut shot off closely mown grass. This zero bounce heel grind extends @ 20-25mm in from the heel after which the primary bounce on the sole angle is there.



    PCF 52 is 5* bounce for the primary sole angle, the 56 is 12*, the 60* is 8*. HM Series 52 is 6* bounce, the 56 is 12* and the 60 is 10*.




    I know this topic has been dead for a while but I am just wondering if anyone has seen any sizeable diminishing of the groves/ score lines on the pcf wedges. I have had a set for three/four seasons and other than a slight discoloration on the sole there are no signs of wear at all. I truly think they spin as well as the day I got them.



    I just went through a club fitting at CC and they didn't even want to touch my wedges because they were performing great.
    Driver: Taylormade M3 9.5 (set to 7.5)- Mitsubishi C6 blue 50 Stiff
    3 Wood: Cobra F6 (Set to 13.5*)
    2 Hybrid: Tour Edge CBX 18*- Mitsubishi C6 Hybrid 80 stiff
    Irons: Mizuno JPX 919 Forged 4-PW Project X LZ 5.5
    Wedges: Tom Wishon PCF micro tour c 52, 56, 60
    Putter: Ping Sigma 2 Arna Stealth
    Grips- Winn DRI-TAC Lite Midsize
  • geochitowngeochitown Members Posts: 1,731 ✭✭
    Nice feedback, thanks.
    Lead Tape lovingly applied - Driver through GW
    TEE XCG7 Beta +1* to 11.5* - TP6HD Firm tipped xx" - 44.25" (CANNON!)
    TEE XCG7 Beta 5W 18* - Matrix 8M2 stiff tipped 1.625" at 41.75"
    TEE XCG7 Beta 22*H - Diamana Thump T93 Stiff untipped at 38.75"
    TEE XCG7 Beta 25*H - Diamana Thump i465ct 4i shaft stiff 38.25"
    Maxfli Revolution Black 5-PW (27,31,35,39,43,48) at -1/2" length DGS300U
    Vokey SM4 52-08F
    Cleveland TA588 57-10 (bent to 56*, so 9* bounce)
    Vokey SM5 58-07S (bent to 60*, so 9* bounce)
    SC Futura X5r 33' flownecked by Bastain milled - cerakote sniper gray - silver dots and white sight line - SS Flatso 2.0
    Coutour Dornoch Putter 33" - 365g Head - SS Flatso 2.0
  • ThayneilThayneil Members Posts: 538 ✭✭
    js2019 wrote:

    TomWishon wrote:

    Ranchobob wrote:


    Tom, thank you for taking the time to explain it.



    Can you clarify the bounce on your wedges for me? I noticed you don't have any specs cited.



    Thanks again!




    The specs for the sole angle of our wedges are on the specs sheet for each wedge model on our website in the green and white charts. Perhaps you were looking for the term BOUNCE and did not realize that SOLE ANGLE is the actual name of the spec for the angle of the sole for which bounce is a condition of the sole angle. Lots of golfers today are not aware of this and think the actual name of the spec is bounce.



    At any rate, we now do a zero bounce heel sole angle for both the HM and PCF wedge families to enable the golfer to roll the face open and not have the leading edge rise up off the ground to potentially lead to more chance of bladed shots when you want to hit that open face finesse cut shot off closely mown grass. This zero bounce heel grind extends @ 20-25mm in from the heel after which the primary bounce on the sole angle is there.



    PCF 52 is 5* bounce for the primary sole angle, the 56 is 12*, the 60* is 8*. HM Series 52 is 6* bounce, the 56 is 12* and the 60 is 10*.




    I know this topic has been dead for a while but I am just wondering if anyone has seen any sizeable diminishing of the groves/ score lines on the pcf wedges. I have had a set for three/four seasons and other than a slight discoloration on the sole there are no signs of wear at all. I truly think they spin as well as the day I got them.



    I just went through a club fitting at CC and they didn't even want to touch my wedges because they were performing great.




    Its good that CC didnt trash Wishon wedges as 'components" perhaps they knew better



    I have 2 sets of PCF wedges and they are great.lots of spin



    I bent my 60 to 58 to make it more versatile (for me)
  • TKSTKS Members Posts: 209 ✭✭
    Just looked at my PCF 56 (bent to 58*) and do concur, little to no wear on the face - spinny zippy.
    All Wishon, all the time:
    919THI 11* Black Driver, Red Shaft - S
    919F/D, Black Shaft
    775 18* hyb, Interflexx Shaft
    590 4iron, Black hybd Shaft
    5-SW Sterlings S300's
    PCF Micro 58*
    S2R #5 putter Double Bend Shaft
    Softer Urethane balls - too many to list
  • baloobaloo A Person Members Posts: 1,082 ✭✭
    edited Mar 2, 2019 2:52pm #12
    TKS wrote:


    Just looked at my PCF 56 (bent to 58*) and do concur, little to no wear on the face - spinny zippy.




    How do you like the 56 bent to 58? I can't decide for my next set between using the set AW then 52 bent to 54 and 56 bent to 58 OR using the 52 bent to 50, 56 bent to 54, and 60 bent to 58.



    Also, does anyone have thoughts on if the HM wedges spin as much as the pcf? The pcf are so spinny it's almost too much for me (not a complaint you hear much on wedges), so I would consider the HM wedges if they knock a touch of spin off.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Driver, 3W, 4W - Macgregor Custom Tourney
    2-10 - 1954 Spalding Synchro Dyned
    SW - Wilson Staff
    Putter - Bullseye
    Ball - Pro Plus

    YT Channel - https://www.youtube....PlayVintageGolf
  • TKSTKS Members Posts: 209 ✭✭
    Hey baloo, hope you sare doing well.

    I prefer weakening the lofts on the PCFs, this takes the leading edge just a touch forward and fits my eye better than strengthening the loft. The 56 to 58 bend makes the wedge look absolutley perfect, have the 52 to 54 as well, again perfection of a perfect design. PCF vs HM spin: they are close and I've found the PCF will spin more with the firm urethane balls, but with the mid to softer urethanes, they are equal, keep in mind I'm not an RPM monitor weenie, just my on course testing.
    All Wishon, all the time:
    919THI 11* Black Driver, Red Shaft - S
    919F/D, Black Shaft
    775 18* hyb, Interflexx Shaft
    590 4iron, Black hybd Shaft
    5-SW Sterlings S300's
    PCF Micro 58*
    S2R #5 putter Double Bend Shaft
    Softer Urethane balls - too many to list
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