Circa '62 and TP Mills

I don't see a problem with someone "copying" a design idea and adding his/her personal touches to it. It's done every day. Ray Kroc is credited with revolutionizing the fast food industry with McDonald's, but I don't hear people complaining about Burger King ripping off the McDonald's idea and adding some slight changes to make it their own. The way I see it, people are always trying to "make a better mousetrap."

We have patent, copyright and trademark laws in the U.S. to prevent people from stealing ideas or products. If someone, including David Mills or Scotty Cameron, wants to make sure that their ideas aren't copied, they should go through the proper channels.

As the saying goes, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

I don't see a problem with someone "copying" a design idea and adding his/her personal touches to it. It's done every day. Ray Kroc is credited with revolutionizing the fast food industry with McDonald's, but I don't hear people complaining about Burger King ripping off the McDonald's idea and adding some slight changes to make it their own. The way I see it, people are always trying to "make a better mousetrap."

 

We have patent, copyright and trademark laws in the U.S. to prevent people from stealing ideas or products. If someone, including David Mills or Scotty Cameron, wants to make sure that their ideas aren't copied, they should go through the proper channels.

 

As the saying goes, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

Great point!

I would put one caveat on the 'imitation' quote....only when revenue is not involved! When you affect an organization's bottom line, they typically frown on imitation.

Also, is Scotty 'buidling a better mousetrap'? Has he improved upon TP's design or materials?

I don't necessarily have the answers, but I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinion on this.

I don't see a problem with someone "copying" a design idea and adding his/her personal touches to it. It's done every day. Ray Kroc is credited with revolutionizing the fast food industry with McDonald's, but I don't hear people complaining about Burger King ripping off the McDonald's idea and adding some slight changes to make it their own. The way I see it, people are always trying to "make a better mousetrap."

 

We have patent, copyright and trademark laws in the U.S. to prevent people from stealing ideas or products. If someone, including David Mills or Scotty Cameron, wants to make sure that their ideas aren't copied, they should go through the proper channels.

 

As the saying goes, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

 

 

Great point!

 

I would put one caveat on the 'imitation' quote....only when revenue is not involved! When you affect an organization's bottom line, they typically frown on imitation.

 

Also, is Scotty 'buidling a better mousetrap'? Has he improved upon TP's design or materials?

 

I don't necessarily have the answers, but I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinion on this.

Only the consumer can decide if Scotty is building a better mousetrap. Based on retail sales and tour usage, it's pretty obvious that consumers and professionals alike believe that Scotty has built a great product (and has advertised/marketed it effectively). Mills makes great putters, there's no arguing that. But, Mills doesn't have the following that Scotty has, at least in terms of volume.

Here's an interesting point to consider: Scotty made Tiger's putter and I'm sure Nike has tried to produce something identical to get it in Tiger's hands. So far Nike hasn't been successful trying to "copy" Scotty's design, materials, craftsmanship, etc. Until Nike can duplicate Tiger's current SC putter, Tiger will continue to play it. I know that's a bit off topic, but somewhat along the same lines in terms of duplication, copying, etc.

This is always a great topic.

Am I alone in my indignation towards SC?

 

It's one thing to improve upon (possibly perfect) some of Karstens original designs, but have you seen the Circa '62 line? Could the replication of TP Mills designs be more obvious? The black oxide finish, the sight dot, the flowing neck...for the sake of all that's right and just in the universe, aren't you just a bit outraged?

 

Let's face it, noone will argue the quality of materials and craftsmanship that goes into a SC putter. I have no qualms about improving existing designs and materials. But it really looks like SC logged onto to TP Mills website (or kept an old catalogue) and just copied and rebranded TP's designs.

 

Am I alone in my shock of SC's shameless 'borrowing' of Mill's putters?

 

I'm not going to suggest anything crazy like a boycott of SC....heck I'd have to sell off half my putters,including my current gamer. But if you're considering a Circa '62, do yourself a favor and get in touch with David Mills and have him make you one of the originals.

 

Just my .02, I'd like to hear yours....can anyone make a case for the Circa '62's?

I agree with you on this, the level of imitation of the Circa 62's is nothing short of absurd. They don't call Cameron "Xerox" for nothing. I seriously doubt David and T.P. Mills are flattered by Cameron stealing their ideas.

Am I alone in my indignation towards SC?

 

It's one thing to improve upon (possibly perfect) some of Karstens original designs, but have you seen the Circa '62 line? Could the replication of TP Mills designs be more obvious? The black oxide finish, the sight dot, the flowing neck...for the sake of all that's right and just in the universe, aren't you just a bit outraged?

 

Let's face it, noone will argue the quality of materials and craftsmanship that goes into a SC putter. I have no qualms about improving existing designs and materials. But it really looks like SC logged onto to TP Mills website (or kept an old catalogue) and just copied and rebranded TP's designs.

 

Am I alone in my shock of SC's shameless 'borrowing' of Mill's putters?

 

I'm not going to suggest anything crazy like a boycott of SC....heck I'd have to sell off half my putters,including my current gamer. But if you're considering a Circa '62, do yourself a favor and get in touch with David Mills and have him make you one of the originals.

 

Just my .02, I'd like to hear yours....can anyone make a case for the Circa '62's?

 

I agree with you on this, the level of imitation of the Circa 62's is nothing short of absurd. They don't call Cameron "Xerox" for nothing. I seriously doubt David and T.P. Mills are flattered by Cameron stealing their ideas.

you could say that

jay

I'm sure that the Mills people are quite upset with it. Scotty simply has rebranded the putters of that the Mills family has designed. I understand an improved anser, SS, GSS, GSS inserts, Copper insserts, Those are all improvements of the anser design. If scotty would sit there and put an insert in his Circa models, he would be making a different product. He hasn't done that. They are the exact same ideas of Mills, and there is something wrong with that especially when credit is not given to the originator. In a golf digest article scotty gave credit to anser for the original designs, but he never mentioned the Mills putters, with his Circa or Studio design designs. Credit needs to be given to the originator simple as that or an improvement needs to be made to scotty's modles.

Croonie

I don't see a problem with someone "copying" a design idea and adding his/her personal touches to it. It's done every day. Ray Kroc is credited with revolutionizing the fast food industry with McDonald's, but I don't hear people complaining about Burger King ripping off the McDonald's idea and adding some slight changes to make it their own. The way I see it, people are always trying to "make a better mousetrap."

 

We have patent, copyright and trademark laws in the U.S. to prevent people from stealing ideas or products. If someone, including David Mills or Scotty Cameron, wants to make sure that their ideas aren't copied, they should go through the proper channels.

 

As the saying goes, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

 

 

Great point!

 

I would put one caveat on the 'imitation' quote....only when revenue is not involved! When you affect an organization's bottom line, they typically frown on imitation.

 

Also, is Scotty 'buidling a better mousetrap'? Has he improved upon TP's design or materials?

 

I don't necessarily have the answers, but I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinion on this.

 

 

Only the consumer can decide if Scotty is building a better mousetrap. Based on retail sales and tour usage, it's pretty obvious that consumers and professionals alike believe that Scotty has built a great product (and has advertised/marketed it effectively). Mills makes great putters, there's no arguing that. But, Mills doesn't have the following that Scotty has, at least in terms of volume.

 

Here's an interesting point to consider: Scotty made Tiger's putter and I'm sure Nike has tried to produce something identical to get it in Tiger's hands. So far Nike hasn't been successful trying to "copy" Scotty's design, materials, craftsmanship, etc. Until Nike can duplicate Tiger's current SC putter, Tiger will continue to play it. I know that's a bit off topic, but somewhat along the same lines in terms of duplication, copying, etc.

 

This is always a great topic.

Good example to illustrate your point.

I agree Scotty has built a great product (check my sig), you'll get no argument there. But many, many people will beccome aware of the Circa '62 line b/c of Titleist's marketing machine as well as having Scotty's name attached to them. As you state, TP Mills doesn't have the following. So, if the consumer decides who's built a better mousetrap and David doens't have the same exposure, is consumer sales a fair metric?

Similarly, would TP Mills HAVE the following if he were attached to a big golf company? If David was attached to TM or Callaway would things be a bit different? Would their vicious corporate lawyers be all over Scotty and Titleist?

I'm not a lawyer but I don't believe you need a patent or copyright to sue for stealing a propriety idea or concept. If David can prove that those designs/style/concept were TP Mills for decades, then he probably has a case....oh, but he'd have to pay his attorneys to fight Titleists' attorneys. That's not a very fair fight.

Sorry I drifted from the topic....can you threadjack your own thread?

TPariff, maybe you and I should take this up over a pop on the 19th?

Anyone else out there have anything to say about this?

Mills and Bettinardi do not have the financial capital behind them that Cameron has and have not created the billion dollar marketing juggernaut that Cameron has. Scotty's a marketing genius. He saw the opportunity to fill a need on the pro tour and took advantage of it. With the empire he built, he can now manufacture cheaper copies of his pro designs to sell at mass market with high mark up AND created customs, limiteds and protos to sell to those with a lot of cash.

Are his designs original? Well, his Tour designs are not. They're copied from other manufacturers and modified, customized etc. The recent offerings of a Futura are not a design originally intended for tour, IMO. They were brought to market because the putter industry has evolved. With the recent MOI craze and Titleist marketing pressures, he needed to make something more outlandish, because you just can't sell $300 anser copies and make a living. Hence the failure of the Futura. An original design, yes. A good design, well, can you name a Futura player on tour? What about in your regular foursome? Any tour players still using a JAT, another original design?

Anyway, is Scotty Cameron a puttermaking genius? I don't think so. The Circa 62 line should come with a headcover which reads "Scotty Cameron 'TP Milled' Putters."

Personally, I couldn't keep copying designs and putting them out to make $$. I have a conscience.

Scotty can make a fine putter, but they are no more better than David Mills' designs. Sales don't equal quality.

Would one of You be so kind to post TP Mills website?

thanks,

BTW I just sold my Studio Design 3.5, served me well for 2 years but now I feel a strong urge to move on and try a Corza or an original TP Mills....

Would one of You be so kind to post TP Mills website?

thanks,

 

BTW I just sold my Studio Design 3.5, served me well for 2 years but now I feel a strong urge to move on and try a Corza or an original TP Mills....

www.tpmills.com

jay

How Can i buy a tp mills putter?

their website shows whole bunch of 'sold out' putters...

what do you choose from???

thanks

Does Cameron have to pay any royalty fees for the blatant rip off of styles? Does any other company? No one really seems to care that Bettinardi, Odyssey, Cobra, Taylor Made, etc. all rip off Ping styles. Cameron just catches it because he is the Big Dog on the Block. I personally don't think Camerons are worth the money. $300 for a design copy with no customization? Please. I'm a Ping loyalist when it comes to putters, but if I ever change I will go with a Mills. At least his designs are original and he will customize a putter for me. Ping will too. Scotty Cameron will not. I'm not a pro. He does not care about me or my golf game at all. He just wants me to spend lots of my money on his putter/headcover/pivot tool/golf bag/etc. He might be a marketing genius. I'll give him that and that's about it.

I might sound like a Cameron hater since there is so much love on the site for him, but I just feel this way. If I want a high end milled putter, I'm going to go with a Mills design. I personally like a cast Ping. That's just me.

All rips aside: Do these companies have to pay for use of the original designs? I've always wanted to know this.

I recently purchased a tour putter from David Mills at the PGA show. I have been a long time Cameron fan and a member of Club Cameron for the past three years. I purchased a Circa 62 because I was born in 62 and liked the classic style. I recently had a bad experience with Club Cameron (regarding staff bag) as did a number of other members. I was not pleased as how they resolved the issue and will not renew my membership this year.

David spent time explaining the origins of the putter I bought and gave me his business card and told me

to call him if I wanted to add my initials, stamps or adjust the putter in any way. I'm not a PGA professional or in the golf business, I am just a fan of quality putters. I'm sure I would never get that kind of time with Mr. Cameron. As I was testing out my new putter on the big putting green at the show I had a number of people inquire about my putter. I sent a number of people over to David's booth that day and everyone was very impressed with his quality of work. I like dealing with a small company where they put the customer first and not the almighty dollar first. I look forward to dealing with David and having him make me a custom putter in the future. I have been converted so I guess I should change my screen name. I would also note that I have received the same type of service from Byron Morgan of Bryron Golf. He makes some great putters as well.

Scott

I recently purchased a tour putter from David Mills at the PGA show. I have been a long time Cameron fan and a member of Club Cameron for the past three years. I purchased a Circa 62 because I was born in 62 and liked the classic style. I recently had a bad experience with Club Cameron (regarding staff bag) as did a number of other members. I was not pleased as how they resolved the issue and will not renew my membership this year.

 

David spent time explaining the origins of the putter I bought and gave me his business card and told me

to call him if I wanted to add my initials, stamps or adjust the putter in any way. I'm not a PGA professional or in the golf business, I am just a fan of quality putters. I'm sure I would never get that kind of time with Mr. Cameron. As I was testing out my new putter on the big putting green at the show I had a number of people inquire about my putter. I sent a number of people over to David's booth that day and everyone was very impressed with his quality of work. I like dealing with a small company where they put the customer first and not the almighty dollar first. I look forward to dealing with David and having him make me a custom putter in the future. I have been converted so I guess I should change my screen name. I would also note that I have received the same type of service from Byron Morgan of Bryron Golf. He makes some great putters as well.

 

 

Scott

Which putter did you buy?

we sold a lot of putters at the Show and I want to try and see if I had the chance to meet you.

Thanks

Jay Green

T.P. Mills Co.

only read the first post but karsten and mills have the best putter designs ever made its kind of hard to design a quailty BLADE i think the best styles have been created already scotty and bettinardi just made them even better with detail i think if ping came out with the classics with out those stupid inserts or what ever they put on the top as a site line they would sell well

if someone tryed to make a totaly diff. design i think it would be way to ugly for retail

How Can i buy a tp mills putter?

 

their website shows whole bunch of 'sold out' putters...

 

what do you choose from???

 

 

thanks

next week I will be posting some pics of the entire line up of putters and will be selling them.

Thanks

Jay Green

T.P. Mills Co.

Glenway,

I can't wait to see that line up! Even though I've got the Newport in the bag now, I rotate between that and Mills protoype TPM #6. I love them both but can't really stomach the blatant imitation of Mill's putters.

Circa '62,

If you're a Mills convert, I suppose there's not much hope for this thread.

Thanks for all the opinions.

I can't wait to see that line up! Even though I've got the Newport in the bag now, I rotate between that and Mills protoype TPM #6. I love them both but can't really stomach the blatant imitation of Mill's putters.

it is something that happens. patents are very expensive and unless you have something new, there isn't a whole lot of reason to mess with getting one. If you renewed the patents on the old designs, they would just make some subtle changes to them and call them different.

We think the best thing we can do is make high quality milled putters from the best materials and let the majority, amateurs, figure out what they like.

We also have great prices and the best customer service, you can always talk to someone and we can make adjustments very easily. All of our putters are made in the US and not out of the country.

We have a good product, just let us prove it to you.

Thanks

Jay Green

T.P. Mills Co.

I heard that Scotty Cameron filed a lawsuit against PING. He was suing them because they haven't come out with anything new that he could copy. Sorry, I thought you guys could use a good laugh. I personally met David Mills when he was making putters for Mizuno, and anything he does is top notch. To see an actual 1 piece forged putter being made was cool (not a welded neck like a Cameron putter). David Mills adds a personal touch that Scotty can not offer. Most of my collection are Cameron putters, but the next putter will be from David Mills for sure.

will i myself am a great fN OF SCOTTY CAMERON AND HIS PUTTERS. i resently read an interview w/ him and he said " is the newport a copy of the anser, yes, but is it wrong to take a great design and make it better?" i love this quote and completely agree with him that taking a great design and making it better is a great idea. esencualy cameron took the anser and added the best materials to make the best putter in the world. as for the circa '62, i personaly love it. if its a take off of the t.p. mills modle i frankly dont care, i feel as if cameron putters are the best and unless some one steps up he always will be.

just my 2 cents though and i understand ppl have there own opions on this very strong subjuect

Jay,

I purchased one of the soft tail tour putters. I was there on Thursday and your Rep from NC was the one who helped me out initially. I was in the booth when the gentlemen bought a prototype and the Postman. I had been looking at the Postman earlier and when I told him that I was not going to purchase the club he decided to buy it. That gentlemen was also a Cameron collector.

Scott

Jay,

 

I purchased one of the soft tail tour putters. I was there on Thursday and your Rep from NC was the one who helped me out initially. I was in the booth when the gentlemen bought a prototype and the Postman. I had been looking at the Postman earlier and when I told him that I was not going to purchase the club he decided to buy it. That gentlemen was also a Cameron collector.

 

Scott

Scott

I was the rep from NC

I remember you guys. The other guys name was Bruce, I believe.

jay

Scott

I was the rep from NC

I remember you guys. The other guys name was Bruce, I believe.

jay

Jay,

I came back Friday and bought a yellow tour headcover. I was the one that had the Tour Del Mar 3.5. that you took a look at. Thanks again for all your help.

Scott

I personally don't think Camerons are worth the money. $300 for a design copy with no customization? Please. I'm a Ping loyalist when it comes to putters, but if I ever change I will go with a Mills. At least his designs are original and he will customize a putter for me. Ping will too. Scotty Cameron will not. I'm not a pro. He does not care about me or my golf game at all. He just wants me to spend lots of my money on his putter/headcover/pivot tool/golf bag/etc.

You not aware of the Custom shop? For you to say that SC will not customize something, when he has something called "Scotty's Custom Shop" where you can change Length, Loft, Lie, Shaft, Grip, Paint Fill, Stamping...etc...... :cheesy:

Reguarding "putter/headcover/pivot tool/golf bag/etc.", sure there is revenue to be had...but Scotty produces it becuase Collectors crave it....also....you make it sound like its some mass marketing blitz....selling 100 bags is not exactly stocking every proshop and Edwin Watts out there to the hilt....

To those that met Mills and said he was a good guy....thats good, he should be...but for people to then just make some cold cocked assumption that SC can't be like that...obvioulsy you have never met the man yourself at an event...or tourney...he goes out of his way to meet, discuss, sign...etc etc....

If this topic is about one putter line and another....thats fine...but keep it at that....lets try not to go off on tagents like Scotty not customizing something, being a revenue and money grubbing self centered word not allowed....mmmk? :)

Any time this discussion comes up, there is the notion that SC copied Ping, Mills, etc. I would agree with this to a certain extent as far as overall design. But like I wrote earlier, SC must be doing something different to have such a huge retail and professional following.

That said, did Adams Golf copy TaylorMade by introducing a driver with removeable weights? Did Titleist and Nike copy Mizuno when they made/copied Tiger's irons he played while still an amateur?

Everyone has his/her opinion on this subject. To answer the question simply: "Yes" the Circa 62 is a "copy" of the Mills design...with some of SC's personal touches.

These arguments about Scotty being a rip-off are hilarious. It's as if he is the only one that has ever taken a design and closely duplicated it while adding his own touches and improvements. Most drivers look fairly similar at address. Who copied who? Most irons look similar at address. Does this mean that every iron that uses huge offset and a thick topline copied Ping? Anyone that has looked down at a nicely milled Anser styled putter (choose your fav putter guy here) knows that you can't compare the crisp, clean lines to that of the original cast Anser.

You rarely hear anyone call Bettinardi or Slighter rip-offs. But you could easily argue that Scotty has had far more original designs than these guys. Here are some Scotty originals: the modern putter headcover, the Futura(still widely used on tour just check the new FBR pics if you don't believe me) , the RedX, the new C5, Oil Can, Pro Platinum and Chromatic finishes just to name a few. Sure the Newport is an Anser and the Circa 62 line does look like some of the Mills putters. But to say that they are blatant rip-offs because the are the same color or have the same neck is silly. How many colors really look good on a putter? Would you buy a purple putter just for the sake of originality? And how many neck styles really look good to our golf trained eyes? There are only two for me, the flowing neck and the standard plumbers neck. There is only so much you can do with a blade putter without getting silly looking.

I'm quite sure that David Mills is a very nice guy, as is Tom Slighter, Bob Bettinardi and Bobby Grace. But the fact of the matter is Scotty is more successful as far as sales and tour use than all of them combined. And this is why people love to slam him. He is a master marketer, he has better tour contacts and he should be credited for turning putter making into an Art. For putter freaks like myself he is King.

Sixx

P.S. If you want to see a direct Mills copy check out the Never Compromise Milled Series #7 and then start a thread slamming NC. :cheesy:

I personally don't think Camerons are worth the money. $300 for a design copy with no customization? Please. I'm a Ping loyalist when it comes to putters, but if I ever change I will go with a Mills. At least his designs are original and he will customize a putter for me. Ping will too. Scotty Cameron will not. I'm not a pro. He does not care about me or my golf game at all. He just wants me to spend lots of my money on his putter/headcover/pivot tool/golf bag/etc.

 

You not aware of the Custom shop? For you to say that SC will not customize something, when he has something called "Scotty's Custom Shop" where you can change Length, Loft, Lie, Shaft, Grip, Paint Fill, Stamping...etc...... :cheesy:

 

Reguarding "putter/headcover/pivot tool/golf bag/etc.", sure there is revenue to be had...but Scotty produces it becuase Collectors crave it....also....you make it sound like its some mass marketing blitz....selling 100 bags is not exactly stocking every proshop and Edwin Watts out there to the hilt....

 

To those that met Mills and said he was a good guy....thats good, he should be...but for people to then just make some cold cocked assumption that SC can't be like that...obvioulsy you have never met the man yourself at an event...or tourney...he goes out of his way to meet, discuss, sign...etc etc....

 

If this topic is about one putter line and another....thats fine...but keep it at that....lets try not to go off on tagents like Scotty not customizing something, being a revenue and money grubbing self centered word not allowed....mmmk? :)

There are only a finite number of popular putter designs. Also, each designer has a different philosophy about what is the best stroke for the average player. Scotty has made many changes to popular designs but most won't tell unless you hold them in your hands or examine year to year pictures closely. TP/David Mills prides themselves on proven designs and their process of creating the "perfect" putter for each individual as best they can. Different companies, philosophies, and approaches. Everyone has their favorites and their is nothing wrong with extolling their virtues. Comparison to other manufacturers is valid as long as it doesn't get personal.

Different strokes for different folks. Also, we recognized that the putter business is very competitive but we are trying to create the best source for Putter information on the Internet here. Personal bashing will turn people off and will not be tolerated. This is a fair playing field and all should respect the rules.

FOR ALL THOSE who questioned the legality "Why doesn't ---- sue ---":

Current patent law for design provides a 14 year patent. The law changed recently (I believe at the demand of the pharmacuetical industry, who patents went from 17 to 20 years), so the previous design patent may or may not have been shorter. Obviously the original Anser patent was well out of date. I believe the initial TP Mills designs were from the 60s, Bullseyes from the 40s, etc.

If you feel there's a moral argument, fine, but legally there is not. This is also why (I believe) you'll see a patent number on a Futura, but not a Newport.

I am not a Cameron collector, nor necessarily a huge fan. I own a Newport 2 Studio Style, as well as an old Phoenix Ping Anser. While they are conceptually alike, the Newport is not identical by any stretch, and I do believe it's an improvement. There must be something to it, I don't think any of the non-Titleist staff who use Camron putters get any money for it. Tiger uses one, and he could use anything he wants.

How Can i buy a tp mills putter?

 

their website shows whole bunch of 'sold out' putters...

 

what do you choose from???

 

 

thanks

 

 

next week I will be posting some pics of the entire line up of putters and will be selling them.

 

Thanks

Jay Green

T.P. Mills Co.

Thanks Jay, I'll look forward to that!

Soeren