Is there a point of diminishing returns for MOI?

Quick question, feel free to hit me with a link to the answer if you have it, but I couldn't find it...

Is there a point as a club gets closer to the MOI limit of 5900 where the forgiveness gains taper off? What is it roughly?

Also, I realize that there is horizontal AND vertical MOI to consider, so am I missing something else here?

Its not a strait forward answer to that, it depends on....

A higher HDC player does have some help and forgiveness from a High MOI head, where MOI is to the max on both the Horizontal and Vertical axis, (First generation Callaway FTI and the "NIKE Squere heads) but thats not the same as a Tour Pro would be comfortable with the same club head. Shot shaping, or "playability" for the better players to shape their shots, take advantage of Face roll and vertical gear effects to get higher launch with low spin when wanted, or lower launch with more spin when thats wanted...if 5900 as MOI was "ideal for all", then all drivers would be made like that.

Its simply so much more to it, than MOI alone, but how lots of other parameters on that club head AND shaft combination works for the players swing and impact pattern, including his mishit tendencies.

Club face Bulge and Roll ratios is part of this, while most players only look at Static loft and face angle options.....face angle at where we often mis it (like high toe side), could be of importance, just like club head BIAS is...IF we "in general" is able to make impact with the club heads COG, as directly behind the ball as possible, MOI values becomes of less importance for "forgiveness", and most players dont even know where VCOG is located on the face of the driver they have....

Finding VCOG is a good start, for "game improvement"..on the course, you will be both longer and straighter with good spin values, no matter what MOI values your heads got...

Read this DIY driver tune up, its a full guide for how to get the most out of the club you got now....there is no needs for any special tools, but some lead tape is handy. The DIY helps you to locate VCOG on your driver head...and explains how both launch and spin values changes vs impact position (average)https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

 

Howard to the rescue. When I saw 1 response to my post I thought, man if it's possibly Howard I he's gonna put this one to bed fast haha.

 

Funny you post the DIY fitting link, I've read over it at least 2 times in the past. Most recently a few months ago, guess one more time couldn't hurt. Here's a pic of the VCoG I found on my SLDR (slight fade setting) last time I read it that I shared it with Valtiel while he was schooling me on some MOI and CG stuff.

I arrived at an 16 M2 head being the easiest thing to plug into my existing TM tip that might give me a bit more forgiveness on my main miss out on the toe. This spurred the nature of my question and is what got me wondering why people swear by certain heads like the 16 M2 when other heads have lower CG and higher MOI values... outside of TM's general driver popularity to begin with.

 

Also been reading into your MOI matching stuff for irons. Some of it is still a bit over my head, but I like to learn and might give it a crack with a set while were sitting at home.

The Ping G400 is a good case in point. The regular 400 has a vertical axis MOI of 5149 and the 400 MAX is 5574 and noticeably more forgiving. Whether or not anyone needs that forgiveness depends on how close to the center of the face they make contact.

@Cons
I can see that there is one thing i have not wrote about in that DIY, and i will have to make a better illustration than this one i made to explain movement of VCOG vs LOFT
When we measure VCOG with the pen method, the pen and the loft plane is 90* vs each other, while if we compensate for the Dynamic loft (or static), we will see that VCOG goes lower.
So the measurement or DOT we see on the face, is where VCOG will be, if we de-lofted all static loft away, so we made impact with a loft of 0*
The more loft we have at impact, the lower will COG be, so it moves with loft, and thats why we DONT need to make impact higher on the face than the DOT, we will be ABOVE the actual VCOG at impct since we always have positive loft at impact.
I will have to make some better illustrations of that with examples for static loft and different RCOG. The longer RCOG is, the deeper actual RCOG is
This shows how VCOG goes up or down depending on the loft we deliver, the vertical is the one we measure with the pen method.
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/WE51YI4S10BM/image.png[/img]
The TOP of the YELLOW Triangle illustrate the VCOG as found with the pen, but since the head has LOFT, here STATIC loft of 10*. in this position, VCOG is at the lower right corner of the Triangle. Reality is about DYNAMIC loft or simply the loft the club head got at impact. If the club head had a RCOG off 57 mm, 10*of loft will move us 10 mm lower on the face than our Pen mark, but no heads has a RCOG that as long as that, so ACTUAL VCOG will in most head and impact positions be somewhere between the pen mark and up to 10 mm down from that point. This is the area in height on the face that gives the best power transfer since COG is more or less directly behind the ball, so we minimize head twisting for all MOI types of heads. We also get the best launch and spin values from this area, since we avoid making impact below VCOG and by that ADD spin from vertical gear effects.

[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/TC29YGCLLSZH/image.png[/img]Ive got a mail asking about this illustration below with IDEAL impact for FADE or DRAW, and the question was, is really ideal impact for a FADE BELOW VCOG?....
The answer is NO, VCOG on the actual illustration is where we find it with a PEN.
Since we always have Loft on the club at delivery, also for a FADE, ACTUAL VCOG will drop to a position somewhere on that line thats 10 mm long from the pen mark, so the impact SMILEY for FADE (RED), is actually IN LEVEL with VCOG at impact, while the green is above VCOG at impact, and thats why spin values and actual loft and launch will be a bit different.
The IDEAL IMPACT AREA is the YELLOW OVAL- Pay attention to that the ideal impact area has a "BIAS" thats kind of "Low and toe side", and thats because this is the fastest club face area close to VCOG. Also look at how COG moves against the heel or toe side depending on face angle at impact. if we for simplicity again say that RCOG is 57 mm behind the face, 1* on face angle will move COG 1 mm both ways, so if we make impact with a face angle that 3* closed, we have moved VCOG 3 mm or close to 1/8"
Summary, a Neutral BIAS with a RCOG of 57 mm who is delivered with a FA 3* CLOSED will have a "FADE BIAS" of 3 mm, and a 3* OPEN FA will be a 3 mm DRAW BIAS...opposite of what sound logical for many.

[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/7DHB0YLROJFE/image.png[/img]ALL this aspects is part of the question "MOI" on the club head, since COG and distance from the face is a major parameter for the MOI value. Most driver heads is about 200 grams, so for short, the longer RCOG is, the higher will MOI be, and the less will that head twist Horizontal or Vertical, so we have a "break pedal" on both Vertical and Horizontal head twisting (more stable direction and launch angle) , and by that Vertical or Horizontal gear effects (less spin added or cut off vs impact height position on the face).