Ben Hogan Wow!

His swing was so cool because he is an example of a guy that worked his butt off to manufacture it, a real hero to all of us amateur types who dream of practicing our way to greatness.I have never seen this video, it's the best quality and newest I have ever seen!

Super swing, though if one wanted to be picky.... closed stance (right foot drawn back, though shoulders remain square, even slightly open), takeaway too much on the inside, club face fanned open, requiring the hands to square it up at impact & generally, rather flat overall

Other than that, PERFECT!

I would love to have seen him play in person

That video was taken in 1978 in the back yard of George Coleman's house near Seminole CC. Hogan would have been about 65 years old. The last film of Hogan that I know of was taken for a commercial that the Hogan company (AMF) made in 1986 I think. Wearing the yellow cardigan. Here it is:
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Great Video.

Thanks.

MB

First off I voted no, although I am a huge fan of Ben Hogan. I believe that his swing worked for him, but had several elements that would ruin most players.

That being said, the Coleman video is amazing and I learn something new every time I watch it.

The So-Mo Drill is incredible, because you are seeing the physical manifestation of the feel of his golf swing. If you slow down his real swing and put it next to the concentration drill you will see the are significantly different. Just because the dymanics of the club in motion at the great speed effect the swing differently. In the drill you can see the feel that he inputs to the club to get it to the desired place. I really his first moves from the top of the swing.

[quote name='HCEG1' timestamp='1282580120' post='2656702']
Super swing, though if one wanted to be picky.... closed stance (right foot drawn back, though shoulders remain square, even slightly open), takeaway too much on the inside, club face fanned open, requiring the hands to square it up at impact & generally, rather flat overall

Other than that, PERFECT!

[/quote]

It is not other than that, but because of that. Hogan's diagonal stance and low plane are ESSENTIALS for repeatability for many anatomical and physical reasons.

Cheers

Its ok.

When you have that many miles on you I suggest you swing the same way Hogan did in this video, Jack made similar adjustments.

AC

Good grief. Are we still debating this. Testimony from many Golf Hall of Fame members clearly reserves the distinction of best swing ever for Ben Hogan. If only the collective we forget our own egos a bit. Why would one not try to emulate Hogan's swing. He spent decades researching what worked and did not work for a repeatable swing and a swing that would stand up in tournament pressure. And probably hit millions of golf balls in the process in his analysis. Most of us are just guppies in this big pond and should learn from the best as we grow up with our own golf swings.

Just a note, Hogan did not take it back inside like Bobby Jones and others. We are comparing what many tour pros of today do which is force the clubhead down the line way beyond what their swing arc should be in order to stretch out their swings (disconnect) to gain more distance (and gain a lot more dispersion) in their shots. Hogan did not like to make compensations in his swing action like many of the pros do to get back into the best position that they can on the downswing and impact area.

Anyway, enjoy the films, he was a lot older. If you watch the films from when he was at his best, you really will learn something wonderful about the golf swing.

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1282583507' post='2656824']
[quote name='HCEG1' timestamp='1282580120' post='2656702']
Super swing, though if one wanted to be picky.... closed stance (right foot drawn back, though shoulders remain square, even slightly open), takeaway too much on the inside, club face fanned open, requiring the hands to square it up at impact & generally, rather flat overall

Other than that, PERFECT!

[/quote]

It is not other than that, but because of that. Hogan's diagonal stance and low plane are ESSENTIALS for repeatability for many anatomical and physical reasons.

Cheers
[/quote]

Byron Nelson or Jack Nicklaus might want to argue that point.

[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1282699147' post='2660028']
[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1282583507' post='2656824']
[quote name='HCEG1' timestamp='1282580120' post='2656702']
Super swing, though if one wanted to be picky.... closed stance (right foot drawn back, though shoulders remain square, even slightly open), takeaway too much on the inside, club face fanned open, requiring the hands to square it up at impact & generally, rather flat overall

Other than that, PERFECT!

[/quote]

It is not other than that, but because of that. Hogan's diagonal stance and low plane are ESSENTIALS for repeatability for many anatomical and physical reasons.

Cheers
[/quote]

Byron Nelson or Jack Nicklaus might want to argue that point.
[/quote]

Uh, oh, here we go. Dariuz J, would like to here more about Hogans stance and plane . I know this is your domain, and I am interested. Thanks. 1lovegolf

[size="3"]Could anyone understand what those old guys were saying about[/size]

[size="3"]Mr. Hogan’s swing?[/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"]This is what I heard:[/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"]yada yada yada They just dont make them like they use to.[/size]

[size="3"]yada yada yada this shaft may me a little stiff for you.[/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"]Holly crap at 5:15. That is at real time. WAY COOL. WE ALL SUCK![/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"]What an amazing athlete. I'm guessing he was nearing 70 + years of age [/size]

[size="3"]and he could still move.[/size]

[quote name='toms1090' timestamp='1282704265' post='2660231']
[size="3"]Could anyone understand what those old guys were saying about[/size]

[size="3"]Mr. Hogan’s swing?[/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"]This is what I heard:[/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"]yada yada yada They just dont make them like they use to.[/size]

[size="3"]yada yada yada this shaft may me a little stiff for you.[/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"]Holly crap at 5:15. That is at real time. WAY COOL. WE ALL SUCK![/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"]What an amazing athlete. I'm guessing he was nearing 70 + years of age [/size]

[size="3"]and he could still move.[/size]
[/quote]
What's interesting is that his slo-mo swing at 5:15 looks much more like the drawings in the book with the left hip way cleared and right elbow leading. His full pace swings had much more lateral movement and extension, and his right elbow, although pitch, wasn't as in front.

[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1282699147' post='2660028']
Byron Nelson or Jack Nicklaus might want to argue that point.
[/quote]

They might or rather not IMO, while being aware that their motions weren't in the league of Hogan's repeatability. Nelson's and even young Nicklaus's downswing principles weren't so far off Hogan's model.

Cheers


[quote name='left right' timestamp='1282703636' post='2660205']Dariuz J, would like to here more about Hogans stance and plane . I know this is your domain, and I am interested. Thanks. 1lovegolf
[/quote]

Therefore, please visit my sites where all is being explained in detail with plenty of visualizations:

http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com

especially, please pay attention to these 3 areas:

http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/04/diagonal-stance.html
http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/08/low-plane-magic.html
http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/04/early-elbow-plane.html

Cheers

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1282726990' post='2660561']
[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1282699147' post='2660028']
Byron Nelson or Jack Nicklaus might want to argue that point.
[/quote]

They might or rather not IMO, while being aware that their motions weren't in the league of Hogan's repeatability. Nelson's and even young Nicklaus's downswing principles weren't so far off Hogan's model.

Cheers


[quote name='left right' timestamp='1282703636' post='2660205']Dariuz J, would like to here more about Hogans stance and plane . I know this is your domain, and I am interested. Thanks. 1lovegolf
[/quote]

Therefore, please visit my sites where all is being explained in detail with plenty of visualizations:

[url="http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com"]http://biokineticgol...ng.blogspot.com[/url]

especially, please pay attention to these 3 areas:

[url="http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/04/diagonal-stance.html"]http://biokineticgol...nal-stance.html[/url]
[url="http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/08/low-plane-magic.html"]http://biokineticgol...lane-magic.html[/url]
[url="http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/04/early-elbow-plane.html"]http://biokineticgol...lbow-plane.html[/url]

Cheers
[/quote]

Can't thank you enough, Dariusz J. 1lovegolf

D, i find the diagonal stance concept to be a little one dimensional for the worlds greatest ball striker, especially if your seeking maximum automation.

i can see how you might take the goal of the book to "break 80" + automation and advocate this setup, but i dont see hogan doing it, he was much closer to the book IMO and varied from that stock base,

...lets say stock shot/trajectory/lie closer to the book, so he might vary into diagonal stance from that stock base but he also might vary in the other direction, i think your being unintentionally selective in your examples, but seen as its a spectrum-ed set up its easy done.

first look at the extremes of the spectrum and you'll most easily find contradictory examples, ... the rear foot with the driver is rarely perpendicular to the line of flight, ...the toe line with short irons is often open.

oh yeah, ...i voted yes,...lol.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQCQYw_Ontw[/media]

I too believe 1953 video of Hogan to be the best swing of all time, each day I spend searching for Hogans magic, I start with this video.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk&feature=related[/url]

This is why, 1lovegolf

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1282761535' post='2661350']
D, i find the diagonal stance concept to be a little one dimensional for the worlds greatest ball striker, especially if your seeking maximum automation.

i can see how you might take the goal of the book to "break 80" + automation and advocate this setup, but i dont see hogan doing it, he was much closer to the book IMO and varied from that stock base,

...lets say stock shot/trajectory/lie closer to the book, so he might vary into diagonal stance from that stock base but he also might vary in the other direction, i think your being unintentionally selective in your examples, but seen as its a spectrum-ed set up its easy done.

first look at the extremes of the spectrum and you'll most easily find contradictory examples, ... the rear foot with the driver is rarely perpendicular to the line of flight, ...the toe line with short irons is often open.
[/quote]

Well, it's hard to argue with wise comments, Joe - therefore, let's just say that the DS concept is one-dimensional. In fact, it must sort of be like that as a macroscale concept.
One think is undisputable, IMO. He setup this way (as per the DS concept) the majority of time. Not only I can see it in the majority of his clips, but (what is much more important) Hogan's playing partners confirmed it. Last but not least, such a stance is much more secure for any fast sideway action (not only in golf). A stance with both foot placed paralelly in-line appears to me very goofy.

Cheers

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1282766358' post='2661516']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1282761535' post='2661350']
D, i find the diagonal stance concept to be a little one dimensional for the worlds greatest ball striker, especially if your seeking maximum automation.

i can see how you might take the goal of the book to "break 80" + automation and advocate this setup, but i dont see hogan doing it, he was much closer to the book IMO and varied from that stock base,

...lets say stock shot/trajectory/lie closer to the book, so he might vary into diagonal stance from that stock base but he also might vary in the other direction, i think your being unintentionally selective in your examples, but seen as its a spectrum-ed set up its easy done.

first look at the extremes of the spectrum and you'll most easily find contradictory examples, ... the rear foot with the driver is rarely perpendicular to the line of flight, ...the toe line with short irons is often open.
[/quote]

Well, it's hard to argue with wise comments, Joe - therefore, let's just say that the DS concept is one-dimensional. In fact, it must sort of be like that as a macroscale concept.
One think is undisputable, IMO. He setup this way (as per the DS concept) the majority of time. Not only I can see it in the majority of his clips, but (what is much more important) Hogan's playing partners confirmed it. Last but not least, such a stance is much more secure for any fast sideway action (not only in golf). A stance with both foot placed paralelly in-line appears to me very goofy.

Cheers
[/quote]

Great post Dariusz J, I apologize for the interuption of what looks like a brewing debate, but I would like to add, if you don't mind, I agree with you.

Paralell foot stance is good for transfer of energy to the right then to the left, but to release that energy in a particulr direction, in the case of a right handed golfer, to the left, we must allow the right leg to push while the left controls balance and direction of release.

Having said that, what better and more stable way, along with dynamic linear control, than to place the lead foot in a strategic position to accomplish this, such as diagonal and any variation of.

I look forward to your future posts on this subject. Thanks 1lovegolf

Joe you just got macroscaled again, forget about the lay of the land when hogan played a shot

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1282766358' post='2661516']
....Not only I can see it in the majority of his clips, but (what is much more important) Hogan's playing partners confirmed it.
[/quote]

which partners, during which period ? ...

venturi said hogan set up with rear foot 10 degree open, i took it to mean foot flare, he didnt say open to what or what club, but what ever he was talking about he was very adamant about it ....lol.

here's a couple from shell

foot flare ...and a ball of right foot, to left ankle line isnt closed with the driver

[attachment=647179:driver.jpg]

and the toe line is open for this short iron.

[attachment=647184:shortiron.jpg]

what led you to re-interpret the book, and re-orientate the stance line to a more closed one for all clubs ? cheers

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1282781046' post='2661962']
[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1282766358' post='2661516']
....Not only I can see it in the majority of his clips, but (what is much more important) Hogan's playing partners confirmed it.
[/quote]

which partners, during which period ? ...

venturi said hogan set up with rear foot 10 degree open, i took it to mean foot flare, he didnt say open to what or what club, but what ever he was talking about he was very adamant about it ....lol.

here's a couple from shell

foot flare ...and a ball of right foot, to left ankle line isnt closed with the driver

[attachment=647179:driver.jpg]

and the toe line is open for this short iron.

[attachment=647184:shortiron.jpg]

what led you to re-interpret the book, and re-orientate the stance line to a more closed one for all clubs ? cheers
[/quote]

There's no doubt that in almost every photo or film sequence I've ever seen of Hogan, he had a small amount of right foot flare, probably 5-10 degrees and his left foot flare was often much more that the "1/4 turn" he wrote about in lessons.

the amount of right foot flare has got to effect a whole bunch of stuff, right? ...counter fall direction, power through impact, etc.

Sticking with the book...Hogan said he set the right foot square to the line of flight, Which would mean it would be flared more open if he was going to hit a draw than for a fade, imo.. no mention of target line, too much emphasis on making a model swing at a target instead of playing Golf might lead you to square it to 'the target'.

[quote name='petter7' timestamp='1282789419' post='2662228']
Great swing, but, not necessarily the best ever. Too many other great swings to choose from IMO.
[/quote]

Would you mind mentioning a few for debate sakes, thanks !lovegolf

Great swing, but, not necessarily the best ever. Too many other great swings to choose from IMO.

Many to choose from, yes. But when answering the question I included how it worked for what it was intended - winning golf tournaments.

Top major winners

Rank Country Golfer Winning span Masters U.S. Open The Open PGA Total

1 USA !USA Nicklaus, JackJack Nicklaus 1962–1986 6 4 3 5 18

2 USA !USA Woods, TigerTiger Woods 1997–2008 4 3 3 4 14

3 USA !USA Hagen, WalterWalter Hagen 1914–1929 0 2 4 5 11

4 RSA !RSA Player, GaryGary Player 1959–1978 3 1 3 2 9

4 USA !USA Hogan, BenBen Hogan 1946–1953 2 4 1 2 9

Of those I would say that Hogan beats those above him because his swing looks better! :-)

Hagen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmC1_JQH71I

And those below him on that list he beat because of more wins! :-)

http://en.wikipedia....winning_golfers

Great swing, but, not necessarily the best ever. Too many other great swings to choose from IMO.

 

Many to choose from, yes. But when answering the question I included how it worked for what it was intended - winning golf tournaments.

 

Top major winners

 

Rank Country Golfer Winning span Masters U.S. Open The Open PGA Total

1 USA !USA Nicklaus, JackJack Nicklaus 19621986 6 4 3 5 18

2 USA !USA Woods, TigerTiger Woods 19972008 4 3 3 4 14

3 USA !USA Hagen, WalterWalter Hagen 19141929 0 2 4 5 11

4 RSA !RSA Player, GaryGary Player 19591978 3 1 3 2 9

4 USA !USA Hogan, BenBen Hogan 19461953 2 4 1 2 9

 

 

Of those I would say that Hogan beats those above him because his swing looks better! :-)

 

Hagen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmC1_JQH71I

 

And those below him on that list he beat because of more wins! :-)

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....winning_golfers

Have you explored the concept that Hogans swing, being of dynamic proportions, would have more acolades were it to be used by an athlete of a different stature. I, in no way indorse performance by virtue of ones athletic ability. However.......well you can decide the rest. 1lovegolf

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1282781046' post='2661962']
which partners, during which period ? ...[/quote]

Gardner Dickinson who was very clear about it.

[quote]
what led you to re-interpret the book, and re-orientate the stance line to a more closed one for all clubs ? cheers
[/quote]

My studies. Simple as that. If you want to have a discussion about it with meritoric arguments - go ahead. Everything I believe in is well documented and argumented.

Cheers