A disgrace to golf

[thorsness]

I hate to be the "unwelcome" post at this thread but someone has to say it. Everything that jimmy roberts said in the final round is completely true. I think it is much easier to win 11 in the 1960's than 7 today because of the competition and like jimmy said "the fields." do not get me wrong, byron was truly a force in the game of golf. I just think that what tiger did was more impressive in the modern day than what byron accomplished in the past.

 

Gotta agree with everything here. Winning 11 for Byron would have been easier than anyone else winning 11 nowadays. Just look how many tours there are, tonnes of depth. JMO

[Eec55]

my 2 cents-------comparing golf accomplishments from the 40's 50's and 60's to today's ones are a waste of time! there are tons of differences! technology and economical factors mainly. i know there are records but we are living in a revolutionary age of golf equipment! golfers back in those ages had to perform to make a living! these guys could live on endorsements alone now! just a few thoughts but i could go on and on!

[WanderDukeCubs]

Ok you play in the clothes that Bryon played in.. ties and thick clothing, with those irons and woods and that old ball or pretty long courses for those days...and greens you could not get them flat in those days. Golf course equipment has come as far as they equipment you play with everyday. Watch some old footage and see how hard these guys hit putts and watch them bounce all over the place.

 

This would be a valid point if only Byron played with goofy clothes, bad equipment, and on bad greens, and the rest of the fields back then had all the good stuff. Or if only Tiger was privy to the good greens and great equipment today and everyone else had junk to play with and putt on. It's all relative.

 

And I think Robert's was simply pointing out that there were circumstances surrounding Byron's streak, just the same as Tiger's detractors brought up the circumstances that surrounded Tiger's streak. It's only fair.

[KDMullins]

Ok you play in the clothes that Bryon played in.. ties and thick clothing, with those irons and woods and that old ball or pretty long courses for those days...and greens you could not get them flat in those days. Golf course equipment has come as far as they equipment you play with everyday. Watch some old footage and see how hard these guys hit putts and watch them bounce all over the place.

 

This would be a valid point if only Byron played with goofy clothes, bad equipment, and on bad greens, and the rest of the fields back then had all the good stuff. Or if only Tiger was privy to the good greens and great equipment today and everyone else had junk to play with and putt on. It's all relative.

 

And I think Robert's was simply pointing out that there were circumstances surrounding Byron's streak, just the same as Tiger's detractors brought up the circumstances that surrounded Tiger's streak. It's only fair.

 

Thank you. I can't believe this is even a thread. Tell me one thing Roberts said that wasn't true. It wasn't even objectionable...much less a disgrace. I can't tell what anybody's upset about. Do you just not like Tiger? Are you mad because Roberts was talking about Nelson, who passed away? I mean it was all true...right?

[samm980]

If the first event in Nelson's streak was a team event (which was common in that era) maybe the arguement should have been used that Tiger's streak died at the Ryder Cup.

 

The entire problem is that you can manipulate the streak in any way you want, I imagine some dimwit writer (I'm thinking somebody on Cold Pizza) will argue that the streak is still alive because Match Play doesn't count.

[Golfchicago]

Isn't the point that a lot of the field in Nelson's time that he set the record was participating at war and not as strong as it normally would be? That wasn't meant as a jab at Byron. I've heard that a hundred times over the years. I would think if that was not true that Byron had plenty of time to refute that statement.

 

If you are going to do a comparison, then you would have to say would Tiger win if a similiar portion of the field is missing that was missing the time Byron did his run. Who knows? Maybe someone else would step up and play well. You just don't know. I think Tiger could beat anyubody playing any conditions with any type of clubs or shafts as long as everyone else played the same conditions and had the same club restrictions.

 

Tiger is simply the best ever. Byron knows that his record was done during wartime and he didn't compete with a full field and he has heard that a thousand times and I am sure he is not offended one bit from that fact.

[littlepingman]

I think saying that Tiger has it easier because of the course conditions or today's equipment is ludicrous. It is an equal playing field today just as it was in Byron's time. That is like saying only Tiger is playing with the good greens and perfect sand in the bunkers. It is an even playing field. All the guys on tour have access to all the latest and greatest equipment and perfect course conditions. So it is absolutely no "advantange" when everyone is playing with the same opportunities. I do believe that the fields are deeper today. They are also much larger.

 

However, I don't think it does anyone any good to compare Tiger Woods to Byron Nelson. Or anyone else for that matter. It doesn't really accomplish anything expect get alot of people worked up. Lets simply appreciate the opporitunity to watch Tiger Woods and let Tiger be Tiger and let Jack be Jack and let Byron be Byron. Comparisons only waste our time. They also seem to raise people's blood pressure.

[BuffaloTim]

Yeah, but so did the rest of the field. The course wasn't any harder for Nelson than it was for the rest of the field. So while Tiger gets the advantage of better conditions and equipment.....so does the rest of todays fields. The variables are consistant.

[scs1070]

There is no reason to take a jab at Nelson's record, that is just bush league. I mean Tiger "officially" hasn't won 7 in a row. The media has flipped and spun this "streak" just like they have for USC playing for or winning 3 straight national championships.

 

Then you get people like Johnny Miller 3 minutes after the match ends starts talking about how great Tiger is (we all know this) and how well he finishes and hwo deep he got in the match play event.......Um, excuse me if I am wrong, didn't tiger lose on Friday? Let it go Johnny, golf will be ok if Tiger is not on TV on Sunday,

[jjc2257]

All Byron did was tee it up in 11 straight and beat everbody who showed up. No reason to devalue his streak. Tiger doesnt need others (Jimmy Roberts) to make excuses for him not breaking every single record in golf. We all know he is from another planet (as far as golf talent goes) so let's just move on. He hasnt retired yet (at least to my knowledge) and more than likely he will own all the records when he does. Let's not hate, let's appreciate Byron and Tiger and forget all the comparisons from different eras.

Just my 2 bits.

[jimbonecrusher]

the problem that I had with Jimmy Roberts report, was that I couldn't understand a word that he was saying, because he had his mouth full of something. Didn't know what it was, but I just heard mumbling.

 

I truly wonder if Tiger sits back and laughs at all of this butt kissing, or if he sits back and says that he deserves all of it.

 

anyways, I think the report was disrespectful to Byron Nelson. It did bring out great points about Tiger's ability, but in doing so it downplayed Byron's ability.

 

It seems as if the people who wrote the story figured that people would not remember who Byron Nelson was, so it was alright to downplay his abilities and accomplishment.

 

If we want to make it an apples to apples comparison, then have Tiger start driving to all of his tour stops and also play 11 in a row. I still don't accept the excuse that the fields were thinned out, it is just an excuse to degrade the accomplishment that Lord Byron obtained.

 

Tiger is a great player, but the media hyped it up too much.

[WanderDukeCubs]

This whole thing is so ridiculous. Most are hammering the media for making up this "Streak", meanwhile I've NEVER heard a media report in which they talked about the streak and NOT mentioned he lost in asia, dubai etc. I think the media fully understands that it was a PGA TOUR winning streak, and reported that truthfully. It's the public that is trying to mis represent the streak in their futile efforts to knock Tiger down a peg.

[mikpga]

Apples and Oranges...

 

 

 

Byron's record is awesome...

 

 

 

Tiger's record is awesome...

 

 

 

Amen

[IH823PUTT]

:)

Yes, I heard that also and I couldn't agree more! It was a discusting display of ignorance on behalf of the commenator(s).

 

P.S. What made you ditch the 690 MB's, you pured those things! ;)

[skinkman]

This whole thing is so ridiculous. Most are hammering the media for making up this "Streak", meanwhile I've NEVER heard a media report in which they talked about the streak and NOT mentioned he lost in asia, dubai etc. I think the media fully understands that it was a PGA TOUR winning streak, and reported that truthfully. It's the public that is trying to mis represent the streak in their futile efforts to knock Tiger down a peg.

 

That's what's so laughable about it all. In one breath they are accusing Robert's of demeaning Nelson's records, then turn around and demean Tiger's streak and say he is hyped up too much..

Hey guy's don't worry..Tiger's just passing through the PGA. It will get back to it's homogenous self in a few years.

[DCDeac]

Nobody said Byron's streak was worthless or not incredibly impressive.

 

But even throwing out the differences in competition and the game itself, two things are true.

 

One of his wins was a 4-ball. He was half of that team, and it doesn't correlate to today's game.

 

The second is that regardless of how the field in general compared to fields now, half the field was missing back then due to the war.

 

Does anyone think you could replace half the PGA tour with good amateurs and not give Tiger an advantage?

 

I think Tiger's 8 with the non-PGA hiccups is about equal to Nelson's 11 against limited fields. Both mind-boggling, incredible accomplishments with a caveat or two.

[soberguy16]

both streaks are incredible in their respective times, as neither was even close to being matched by another player. The game then and now is much differerent, as in most other sports. What we have to do now is just sit back and appreciate what tiger is doing in todays game...its truly incredible and we should all feel blessed as golfers to be watching one of the greatest athletes of all time inprinting his legacy on our sport. ;)

[coreyt]

DCDeac, Tigers streak was great, but come on....Nelson played in limited field events.....so does Tiger! Every tournament tiger tees it up does not have the best field or the best players in them. Second is the desire to win (which I admire tiger for having), in Nelsons day the payouts weren't that great so players went for every flag to post as close to the lead as possible, today you lag a putt to get a good check. Tiger is tiger but don't count a win streak that has loses in it, that would be like saying I always par the 4th hole, except for the 4th holes at other course besides my home course.

[Debit]

Seems that you have forgotten that for many players, eleven wins is a career, regardless of the era. So Tiger didn't match the record -- find anyone else who has won 7 in a row!

[samm980]

I don't have records in front of me but I believe Hogan, Snead, Middlecoff, and the likes still played in some of those events.

[DemolitionMan]

So many people in the media (including Jimmy Roberts) are Idiots! That's right, with a capital I.

 

Since Tiger's so called streak included a break during the winter, then if you want to get so damn technical, Nelson's streak is not 11, it's 13.

 

Snead and Hogan were around plenty that year, Nelson beat them both more than once during the streak. Nelson was so dominant that year that after his streak was over, Hogan won three tournaments, then towards the end of the year Nelson waxed Snead and Hogan again.

 

I don't know why people insist upon comparing eras that are not comparable. The game is nowhere near the same. Give Nelson his due just like we have to give VJ his due when he took over #1 briefly in the Tiger era.

[samm980]

So many people in the media (including Jimmy Roberts) are Idiots! That's right, with a capital I.

 

Since Tiger's so called streak included a break during the winter, then if you want to get so damn technical, Nelson's streak is not 11, it's 13.

 

Snead and Hogan were around plenty that year, Nelson beat them both more than once during the streak. Nelson was so dominant that year that after his streak was over, Hogan won three tournaments, then towards the end of the year Nelson waxed Snead and Hogan again.

 

I don't know why people insist upon comparing eras that are not comparable. The game is nowhere near the same. Give Nelson his due just like we have to give VJ his due when he took over #1 briefly in the Tiger era.

 

 

I also want to say that after the streak ended he started another sustained run. Nelson had 18(?) wins that you and 17 of them came in an 18 event stretch.

[upndown1]

Byron is the father of the modern golf swing. 11 in a row is amazing in ANY era. Tiger did not have a streak of 7 because he lost in there - you can't pick and choose just because it was a PGA event - not in todays world with show money and internet and television - Dubai counts in my eyes.

 

That being said, during that streak of 11, Hogan was serving his country in the military, albeit as a golf pro at a military course. If he had been home, it is very unlikely that Byron would have won 11 in a row. However during this time, he probably beat the best player of any era repeatedly - Sam Snead is if you base best by career wins. Although Snead was fresh out of the Navy, he had started the season with several wins.

 

As far as the whose better in what era debate:

Luke donald was gien a balata, a persimmon, some old wilson blades etc and to my recolection of the article found it hard to average 240 off the tee and made some comment about Arnie and Jack regularly hitting 300+?

tiger is great and one of my favorites but for the sake of debate and regression: put tiger back in their era on their equipment and all the social stigmas and he probably isnt heard from. Take away the stigmas and there is still no gaurentee that he will be great because his knowlege of biometrics and workout regime are beyond belief - benches twice his weight etc.

 

However, put Jack and Arnie, and Byron and Sammy and Ben in their prime on Todays equipment instead of their substandard equipment and with todays understanding of the swing and strength training and they would own everyone in my opinion - Remember Jack's 2 iron at Doral to 18 putting for eagle when tiger tried to get there and missed?

 

No matter how you slice it, what Byron did was amazing whether he had the competition he normally had or not. What tiger has done is amazing considering the competition and level of competition he faces.

[scores]

How about the top 125 money list there was no such thing back in Nelson's day ... Those guys were very tough and to get a great picture as to how hard it was back then read Hogan's Bio it really puts in perspective how much these are treated like kings.. really top 125 what a bunch of spoiled brats make it the the top 50 and let bunch of brats fire at pin's ... and you ll see some three footers missed and the best golf swing may not win every week or any week. Also look at the equipment trucks all over the place ..

 

Nelson or any of the other guy's did not have that kind of treatment they also drove in there cars! So they are right no comparision..

 

Tigar is a great talent when it it is all over maybe the best that ever played the game but when you come on tour with 10 million in your pocket you can shoot at the stick..!

 

I am a young guy but after reading that book last winter WOW !!!they were way tougher and to sit in your car that long and then play a competive round of golf and do again and again!!!

[Omen]

and i dont remember nelson ever getting fitted or having a swing coach showing him any swing faults creeping in....Tiger is great... but put him back in the day with nelson with the same OTR equipment... no special shafts to fit your swing Tiger.... no, you get the same hickory shaft everyone gets....dont worry about that sarazan wedge it works pretty well from the bunkers...and Nelson wipes the floor with Tiger... put Nelson out here today with the custom treatment and analysis Tiger gets and tiger stands a better chance but i still think Nelson would edge him out. I think you guys forget how much technology has changed the game.

 

and if given the choice of a slow bumpy green or a smooth super fast one... I will take the smooth fast one...hard to judge a ball that's bouncing into the air.....

 

Tiger cant compete with nelson in nelsons era or in todays era... just my opinion

[jared]

and i dont remember nelson ever getting fitted or having a swing coach showing him any swing faults creeping in....Tiger is great... but put him back in the day with nelson with the same OTR equipment... no special shafts to fit your swing Tiger.... no, you get the same hickory shaft everyone gets....dont worry about that sarazan wedge it works pretty well from the bunkers...and Nelson wipes the floor with Tiger... put Nelson out here today with the custom treatment and analysis Tiger gets and tiger stands a better chance but i still think Nelson would edge him out. I think you guys forget how much technology has changed the game.

 

and if given the choice of a slow bumpy green or a smooth super fast one... I will take the smooth fast one...hard to judge a ball that's bouncing into the air.....

 

Tiger cant compete with nelson in nelsons era or in todays era... just my opinion

 

 

How can you say Tiger cannot compete with Nelson when Nelson's name never even comes up in the debate for the best golfer of all time? It's Jack and Tiger simple as that. You guys can talk about equipment, balls, fitting etc. all you want but it is the most faulty logic of all time. It is not like those benifits would be exclusive to Nelson everyone would have it. Thus improving everyones game around them.

 

Tiger took golf from a country club white collar sport to a multi billion dollar industry. Ask the public if they have heard of Byron Nelson most won't....ask them if they have heard of past greats in other sports IE Wilt Chamberlin etc. Point is golf wasn't as popular then. You can thank a lot of what golf is today to Tiger.

[Omen]

so you're saying that if tiger were to have been around in Nelsons era with the same equipment he would have beat nelson....

 

I bet Tiger would have some serious slow down to his record breaking if the rough was 6 inches deep, removing his Bomb and Gouge tactic.

 

Sure he's good... at playing Bomb and Gouge....he's a great putter too....but he wont play the Nissan because of "bumpy" greens....

 

No Tiger would not beat Nelson during his era.... last time tiger had 18 wins in a Year with a stroke average of 68.33?? on Bumpy greens no less?

 

get some Tiger

 

i understand loving Tiger and his accomplishments, but he in no way is a Nelson...from a purely performance oriented aspect.. yes he has done more for the game of golf than any other individual alive...

[jared]

Bomb and gouge player......hmmmm anyone else remember a british open where he hit iron off almost every single tee and still won? Tiger has accomplished more in the game of golf then byron nelson ever did and he is still not done yet. Don't forget he still has plenty of peak years left in him. Your right...if right now at this moment he was transported into the past and had to play with different equipment and on different types of courses he would struggle....until he got used to it and then he would dominate. What about bethpage black? Did that look like deep rough to you?

 

Tiger does not benifit from todays technology. He used a 43 inch driver for a good portion of his career with a steel shaft. He would have hit the ball longer than anyone on tour 50 years ago as well. Those are not my words....there Jack's. Pick up the latest issue of Golf Digest.

[blco02]

I was WAITING for someone to point those things out- glad NBC did...

[ur1down]

Nelson didn't skip events held at courses he struggled playing just to keep the "streak" alive.

 

Tiger plays tougher fields.

 

Arnie got the same "help" Tiger gets from the galleries, Arnie got the same bias from the media Tiger gets and Arnie was criticized for it just as much as Tiger is now.

 

Like Jon Bon said, "It's all the same, only the names have changed."