Anybody here just swing the arms......

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414513929' post='10362501']
[quote name='Moleman' timestamp='1414511999' post='10362319']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414337128' post='10352895']
You swing freely by ignoring the ball to the greatest extent you can. You swing the club. The balls is in the way and it's the club's responsibility to hit the ball and get it in the air. People who can't swing freely are hitting at the ball


Also with regard to swinging freely, first make sure you are swinging at all. Most golfers don't swing, they push the club, pull the club, lever the club or just use the club to swipe at the ball.

The axis remains stationary. The club pick up speed gradually from the top to impact. The club moves smoothly through the impact area. No sudden inputs of force, no sudden inputs of tension, no leverage.

Just some ideas of Manny's on swinging freely and smoothly.

Steve
[/quote]

Thanks for these thoughts Steve, very interesting and something I aspire to consistently achieve, unfortunately I'm still in the "use the club to swipe at the ball" phase. Whenever I manage to go an entire round just simply swinging the club with no tension the difference and ball striking experience is amazing..

Do you use the same free swing technique regardless of club or shot?
[/quote]

I strive to just swing the club no matter the shot, but like everyone else I sometimes fall prey to the impulse to hit the ball instead of swing the club. The result when I do are often poor.

Steve
[/quote]

Does MDLT prescribe a different coaching menu for advanced players, a la Jim Flick?

[juststeve]

Whether you are an advanced player or a beginner, what matters is the way the club moves, on an arc, around a fixed swing center, in the direction of the target. That's how nearly all good players swing the club. That's what Manny teacher to everyone. The difference between advanced players and the not so advanced, is the advanced player moves the club better and more consistently.

Steve

[mikah]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414518957' post='10363019']
Whether you are an advanced player or a beginner, what matters is the way the club moves, on an arc, around a fixed swing center, in the direction of the target. That's how nearly all good players swing the club. That's what Manny teacher to everyone. The difference between advanced players and the not so advanced, is the advanced player moves the club better and more consistently.

Steve
[/quote]

The greatest ball strikers, eg Ben Hogan; swung on a shallow elliptical pattern.
.. the flatter , straighter the 'arc', the longer the area of contact. Another example is Moe Norman
who envisioned a 22 inch straight line path of clubhead through the ball zone.

Hard not to hit solid and straight with a 'straighter' path.

Ben Hogans clubhead path from Leadbetters Fundamentals of Hogan:

[juststeve]

I'm not sure what your point is. The two dimensional pictures you posted show what I described in two dimensions. The club approaches impact from inside, strikes the ball and moves back to the inside. In other words its swinging on an arc. The problem with picture one, (the one on the left) is the club is not swinging toward the target at impact, its swinging to the right. You can hit a straight shot at the target unless the club is moving toward the target at impact.

Again, almost all good golfers swing the club on an arc toward the target and that included Hogan.

Steve

[mikah]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414600147' post='10368339']
I'm not sure what your point is. The two dimensional pictures you posted show what I described in two dimensions. The club approaches impact from inside, strikes the ball and moves back to the inside. In other words its swinging on an arc. The problem with picture one, (the one on the left) is the club is not swinging toward the target at impact, its swinging to the right. You can hit a straight shot at the target unless the club is moving toward the target at impact.

Again, almost all good golfers swing the club on an arc toward the target and that included Hogan.

Steve
[/quote]

My point is that an arc is circular and the clubhead path to impact is not circular in the best swings.

A circle can only have clubface directed at target at a single tangent point in circumference,(very timing dependent)
while an ellipse has a much longer area of possible impact that will be at or very close to the target path/face angle.
Cannot create the elliptical path hitting with hands(forearms), IMO.

[Golf nerd]

Good point with the ellipse, Mikah. My question would be how we investigate/measure who is swinging more circular and who is swinging more elliptical?
To add something in your direction:
the right arm straightening into impact is more linear while humerus rotation is more circular.
Same would apply for lateral movements versus rotational body movements.

[mikah]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414603702' post='10368761']
Good point with the ellipse, Mikah. My question would be how we investigate/measure who is swinging more circular and who is swinging more elliptical?
To add something in your direction:
the right arm straightening into impact is more linear while humerus rotation is more circular.
Same would apply for lateral movements versus rotational body movements.
[/quote]

IMO, if a golfers bad is a pull or pull hook, they are swinging circular, probably hitting with their hands(forearms) and /or right arm straightening.

Ben Hogans club head path, was ellipitical. The closer we come to his club face path/orientation could be a measure of how elliptical our swing?

[Millbrook]

Just to revisit this topic, does anyone know of a video of a swing from overhead which traces the club head?

[Biomateur]

http://youtu.be/olesKFME1rg

[mikah]

Moe Norman from above 28:34

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmmIBmX7eR8#t=1733"]https://www.youtube....IBmX7eR8#t=1733[/url]

33:07 , 34:40 Master Move,trail hand under the lead hand
34:32 Moe and Ben Hogan.. underplane



An ellipse in baseball swing = area of impact?

Jaime Cavellos says the Babe had the largest Area of Impact
(trail hand under the lead hand, until 10 oclock)

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmmIBmX7eR8#t=1733"]https://www.youtube....IBmX7eR8#t=1733[/url]

[juststeve]

If anyone can locate a view from above and in front you will be surprised how close to circular good swings are.

Steve

[mikah]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1415719087' post='10429091']
If anyone can locate a view from above and in front you will be surprised how close to circular good swings are.

Steve
[/quote]

about 44:50 on the Moe Norman video, the camera was in front.

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1415715538' post='10428865']
Just to revisit this topic, does anyone know of a video of a swing from overhead which traces the club head?
[/quote]

Maybe like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNRsnz92bG8

[Millbrook]

Thanks Golfnerd, just what I wanted to see.

Now the downswing follows a different path from the backswing. Is this because, as a poster on another thread said 'all good golfers shallow the club on the downswing'. Any agreement on that?

It seems to me that both backswing and downswing are circular, as juststeve says. Have not been able to see the swings linked by Mikah but will retry but wonder if the shallowing produces the refered to 'underplane swing' rather than it necessarily being eliptical?

[Millbrook]

Managed to watch the links but the video is not good enough, or I'm not, to draw any conclusions from them.

[juststeve]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1415796008' post='10433637']
Thanks Golfnerd, just what I wanted to see.

Now the downswing follows a different path from the backswing. Is this because, as a poster on another thread said 'all good golfers shallow the club on the downswing'. Any agreement on that?

It seems to me that both backswing and downswing are circular, as juststeve says. Have not been able to see the swings linked by Mikah but will retry but wonder if the shallowing produces the refered to 'underplane swing' rather than it necessarily being eliptical?
[/quote]

You are correct that the circle of the forward swing is outside the circle of the forward swing if your looking at the club head. . That's because the back swing begins with the club head at a maximum distance from the swing center, and that because of the wrist hinge the forward swing does not. The shorter radius of the forward swing means it makes a smaller circle thus one inside the larger circle.

If you consider the circle made by the forward hand, not the club head, you will see it traces a nearly identical circle in most good swings.

Steve

[mikah]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1415805384' post='10434183']
[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1415796008' post='10433637']
Thanks Golfnerd, just what I wanted to see.

Now the downswing follows a different path from the backswing. Is this because, as a poster on another thread said 'all good golfers shallow the club on the downswing'. Any agreement on that?

It seems to me that both backswing and downswing are circular, as juststeve says. Have not been able to see the swings linked by Mikah but will retry but wonder if the shallowing produces the refered to 'underplane swing' rather than it necessarily being eliptical?
[/quote]

You are correct that the circle of the forward swing starts inside the circle of the back swing if your looking at the club head. . That's because the backswing begins with the club head at a maximum distance from the swing center, and that because of the wrist hinge the forward swing does not.

If you consider the circle made by the forward hand, not the club head, you will see it is nearly identical in most good swings.

Steve
[/quote]

Steve,
what do you consider the beginning of the BS?
address?

The arms/scapula are extended further away from our COG at impact than at address.

At impact, our torso moves away from the ball to counter balance the arms/scapula extension. That is why our head lowers into impact. our hips move away, our backs bend and head is lower. The alternative is goat humping or EE.

if the clubhead moved on a perfectly circular arc, from our lead shoulder, the club face would be square to 'target' at only one tangent point on that arc.
When the Babe swung, with an extended area of impact, due to bent trail arm; he created a flat spot many times larger than a tangent on an arc.
Most golfers swing(golf instructors teach) a circular arc, using forearm rotation(hitting with the hands.. rollover) very timing dependent, straightening trail arm at impact.


In golf very few swung with a bent trail arm through impact... not releasing until 10 oclock.(5:30)
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bUvU4gH1GI"]https://www.youtube....h?v=1bUvU4gH1GI[/url]

[Millbrook]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1415806240' post='10434257']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1415805384' post='10434183']
[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1415796008' post='10433637']
Thanks Golfnerd, just what I wanted to see.

Now the downswing follows a different path from the backswing. Is this because, as a poster on another thread said 'all good golfers shallow the club on the downswing'. Any agreement on that?

It seems to me that both backswing and downswing are circular, as juststeve says. Have not been able to see the swings linked by Mikah but will retry but wonder if the shallowing produces the refered to 'underplane swing' rather than it necessarily being eliptical?
[/quote]

You are correct that the circle of the forward swing starts inside the circle of the back swing if your looking at the club head. . That's because the backswing begins with the club head at a maximum distance from the swing center, and that because of the wrist hinge the forward swing does not.

If you consider the circle made by the forward hand, not the club head, you will see it is nearly identical in most good swings.

Steve
[/quote]

Steve,
what do you consider the beginning of the BS?
address?

The arms/scapula are extended further away from our COG at impact than at address.

At impact, our torso moves away from the ball to counter balance the arms/scapula extension. That is why our head lowers into impact. our hips move away, our backs bend and head is lower. The alternative is goat humping or EE.

if the clubhead moved on a perfectly circular arc, from our lead shoulder, the club face would be square to 'target' at only one tangent point on that arc.
When the Babe swung, with an extended area of impact, due to bent trail arm; he created a flat spot many times larger than a tangent on an arc.
Most golfers swing(golf instructors teach) a circular arc, using forearm rotation(hitting with the hands.. rollover) very timing dependent, straightening trail arm at impact.


In golf very few swung with a bent trail arm through impact... not releasing until 10 oclock.(5:30)
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bUvU4gH1GI"]https://www.youtube....h?v=1bUvU4gH1GI[/url]
[/quote]

I'm a Brit so baseball is a unknown game to me. However, having watched the video and seen the body position on strike I struggle to see what can be learnt about the golf swing from the baseball swing. The whole body position and weight distribution seems different to me. Also we are talking about hitting a moving ball as opposed to swinging with a stationary ball 'in the way'.

That's not to say an eliptical swing would not have it's merit in keeping the club head on path longer I just don't see how it is achieved.

Where I go for coaching there are a series of pictures of about a dozen world class pros. Each pro is shown in a series of about 12 stills. The coach said to me look at them, the one thing which is constant is the impact position. In all cases the trail arm is not straight at impact.

I thought the modern approach was not to teach a 'hitting with the hands ....roll over' technique but a body control technique where the pivot squares the club face and the arms and hands are passive. The other approach is a club control technique through an arm swing - Ernest Jones, Manuel de la Torre, Mike Bender and Pete Cowan but again the hands do not manipulate the club.

[Millbrook]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1415805384' post='10434183']
[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1415796008' post='10433637']
Thanks Golfnerd, just what I wanted to see.

Now the downswing follows a different path from the backswing. Is this because, as a poster on another thread said 'all good golfers shallow the club on the downswing'. Any agreement on that?

It seems to me that both backswing and downswing are circular, as juststeve says. Have not been able to see the swings linked by Mikah but will retry but wonder if the shallowing produces the refered to 'underplane swing' rather than it necessarily being eliptical?
[/quote]

You are correct that the circle of the forward swing is outside the circle of the forward swing if your looking at the club head. . That's because the back swing begins with the club head at a maximum distance from the swing center, and that because of the wrist hinge the forward swing does not. The shorter radius of the forward swing means it makes a smaller circle thus one inside the larger circle.

If you consider the circle made by the forward hand, not the club head, you will see it traces a nearly identical circle in most good swings.

Steve
[/quote]

Yes and of course weight shift, whether intentional or reactive, shifts the RH golfer left so the path will be different at least at the beginning. presumably the secondary tilt helps deliver the head to the ball.

[mikah]

[color=#282828]I'm a Brit so baseball is a unknown game to me. However, having watched the video and seen the body position on strike I struggle to see what can be learnt about the golf swing from the baseball swing. The whole body position and weight distribution seems different to me. Also we are talking about hitting a moving ball as opposed to swinging with a stationary ball 'in the way'.[/color]

[color=#282828]That's not to say an eliptical swing would not have it's merit in keeping the club head on path longer I just don't see how it is achieved.[/color]

[color=#282828]Where I go for coaching there are a series of pictures of about a dozen world class pros. Each pro is shown in a series of about 12 stills. The coach said to me look at them, the one thing which is constant is the impact position. In all cases the trail arm is not straight at impact.[/color]

[color=#282828]I thought the modern approach was not to teach a 'hitting with the hands ....roll over' technique but a body control technique where the pivot squares the club face and the arms and hands are passive. The other approach is a club control technique through an arm swing - Ernest Jones, Manuel de la Torre, Mike Bender and Pete Cowan but again the hands do not manipulate the club. [/color]

[color=#282828]Millbrook,[/color]
[color=#282828]Sounds golf instruction in Europe is different than NA?[/color]
(trail arm doesnt release down at the ball?, forearms dont square the club face?)

[color=#282828]some things make you go UMMM ryder cup.[/color]

[color=#282828]You dont see a lot of Ben Hogan 's swing in what the Babe did?[/color]

[color=#282828]release at 10 oclock? LAG, Larger area of impact?[/color]
[color=#282828]Moe Normans swing... left arm way higher than the right?[/color]
[color=#282828]trail elbow almost directly under the lead elbow?[/color]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg#t=34"]https://www.youtube....4DCZuAj5Mg#t=34[/url]

[Millbrook]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1415809292' post='10434551']
[color=#282828]I'm a Brit so baseball is a unknown game to me. However, having watched the video and seen the body position on strike I struggle to see what can be learnt about the golf swing from the baseball swing. The whole body position and weight distribution seems different to me. Also we are talking about hitting a moving ball as opposed to swinging with a stationary ball 'in the way'.[/color]

[color=#282828]That's not to say an eliptical swing would not have it's merit in keeping the club head on path longer I just don't see how it is achieved.[/color]

[color=#282828]Where I go for coaching there are a series of pictures of about a dozen world class pros. Each pro is shown in a series of about 12 stills. The coach said to me look at them, the one thing which is constant is the impact position. In all cases the trail arm is not straight at impact.[/color]

[color=#282828]I thought the modern approach was not to teach a 'hitting with the hands ....roll over' technique but a body control technique where the pivot squares the club face and the arms and hands are passive. The other approach is a club control technique through an arm swing - Ernest Jones, Manuel de la Torre, Mike Bender and Pete Cowan but again the hands do not manipulate the club. [/color]

[color=#282828]Millbrook,[/color]
[color=#282828]Sounds golf instruction in Europe is different than NA?[/color]
(trail arm doesnt release down at the ball?, forearms dont square the club face?)

[color=#282828]some things make you go UMMM ryder cup.[/color]

[color=#282828]You dont see a lot of Ben Hogan 's swing in what the Babe did?[/color]

[color=#282828]release at 10 oclock? LAG, Larger area of impact?[/color]
[color=#282828]Moe Normans swing... left arm way higher than the right?[/color]
[color=#282828]trail elbow almost directly under the lead elbow?[/color]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg#t=34"]https://www.youtube....4DCZuAj5Mg#t=34[/url]
[/quote]

Yes trail arm releases but the arm is not straight at impact and the golfers in the pics were from the world over. And yes the forearms may be square but not through 'manipulation'.

I go to Pete Cowans (Stensons coach) school and see one of the coaches there. PC has some ideas about the forearms and applying power but I am not at that stage yet. Then he is an arm swinger and not a pivot driven teacher.

I can see a lot of what Hogan did in Babes swing but Hogan saw the correct motion of the right arm in the impact area as the motion an infielder makes when he throws half side arm. I'm aware he attributed some of his progress to talks or watching a famous baseball player.

However if I wanted to permanently ruin someones swing I would tell them that Hogan and Norman were the best ball strikers in history and go pick which one to copy.

The style of the best in the world does not make it transferable to us mere mortals, we have to find some basics comensurate with our athleticism, build, age and ability.

[mikah]

[color=#282828]The style of the best in the world does not make it transferable to us mere mortals, we have to find some basics commensurate with our athleticism, build, age and ability. [/color]


[color=#282828]Thanks for the details on your instructors/instruction.[/color]

Suggest that the best in the world simply understood more than the rest of us,
it seems including golf instructors in Europe..c'est dommage

[color=#282828] [/color]

[juststeve]

Mikah:

Hitting a ball in baseball presents a very different problem from the one presented by golf, hence any analogy drawn between the baseball swing and the golf swing is inexact. For a baseball player the task is to make contact with a pitched ball no matter where the ball is in the strike zone. Because the ball could be anywhere in the zone no single repeating swing, no matter how sound, will avail.

Golf is a very different game because I know exactly where the ball will be when I hit it and I know it won't move. Therefore the most effective way to hit the ball is with a repeating swing that the ball gets in the way of. Once you have learned to swing the club in such a way that it touches ground, with the face square to path, and the path toward the target, in the same place relative to your body, every time, hitting good shots is just a matter of ball placement. Learning to repeat such a swing is not that hard if you put your mind to it and are willing to make the effort.

All of this assumes that you are focused on making a proper swing, and not swiping at the ball hoping to manipulate the club into a square position on an ad hoc basis. A person who does that has a lot of timing and holding the club square to worry about.

Steve

[mikah]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1415815056' post='10435435']
Mikah:

Hitting a ball in baseball presents a very different problem from the one presented by golf, hence any analogy drawn between the baseball swing and the golf swing is inexact. For a baseball player the task is to make contact with a pitched ball no matter where the ball is in the strike zone. Because the ball could be anywhere in the zone no single repeating swing, no matter how sound, will avail.

Golf is a very different game because I know exactly where the ball will be when I hit it and I know it won't move. Therefore the most effective way to hit the ball is with a repeating swing that the ball gets in the way of. Once you have learned to swing the club in such a way that it touches ground, with the face square to path, and the path toward the target, in the same place relative to your body, every time, hitting good shots is just a matter of ball placement. Learning to repeat such a swing is not that hard if you put your mind to it and are willing to make the effort.

All of this assumes that you are focused on making a proper swing, and not swiping at the ball hoping to manipulate the club into a square position on an ad hoc basis. A person who does that has a lot of timing and holding the club square to worry about.

Steve
[/quote]

The batters box in baseball is the same whatever park he is in, whereas, every golf course, hole and lie presents a new challenge to golfers.

Suggest that the ball position in golf is different for every shot.
The two sports are different, but IMO the larger the Area of Impact built into our swings will result in most consistency and control.

i dont think it is a coincidence that some of the greatest records in golf and baseball hitting are held by those who swung, underplane.

Are there no instructors in NA or Europe who teach an 'underplane' golf swing? none?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1415818748' post='10435859']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1415815056' post='10435435']
Mikah:

Hitting a ball in baseball presents a very different problem from the one presented by golf, hence any analogy drawn between the baseball swing and the golf swing is inexact. For a baseball player the task is to make contact with a pitched ball no matter where the ball is in the strike zone. Because the ball could be anywhere in the zone no single repeating swing, no matter how sound, will avail.

Golf is a very different game because I know exactly where the ball will be when I hit it and I know it won't move. Therefore the most effective way to hit the ball is with a repeating swing that the ball gets in the way of. Once you have learned to swing the club in such a way that it touches ground, with the face square to path, and the path toward the target, in the same place relative to your body, every time, hitting good shots is just a matter of ball placement. Learning to repeat such a swing is not that hard if you put your mind to it and are willing to make the effort.

All of this assumes that you are focused on making a proper swing, and not swiping at the ball hoping to manipulate the club into a square position on an ad hoc basis. A person who does that has a lot of timing and holding the club square to worry about.

Steve
[/quote]

The batters box in baseball is the same whatever park he is in, whereas, every golf course, hole and lie presents a new challenge to golfers.

Suggest that the ball position in golf is different for every shot.
The two sports are different, but IMO the larger the Area of Impact built into our swings will result in most consistency and control.

i dont think it is a coincidence that some of the greatest records in golf and baseball hitting are held by those who swung, underplane.

Are there no instructors in NA or Europe who teach an 'underplane' golf swing? none?
[/quote]

Nope, only over- the-top, tumbling D - Planers now.

[Millbrook]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1415813540' post='10435207']
[color=#282828]The style of the best in the world does not make it transferable to us mere mortals, we have to find some basics commensurate with our athleticism, build, age and ability. [/color]


[color=#282828]Thanks for the details on your instructors/instruction.[/color]

Suggest that the best in the world simply understood more than the rest of us,
it seems including golf instructors in Europe..c'est dommage


[/quote]

I agree that they understand more than the rest of us in the context of what made them the best. I think you understood my point that it does not necessarily mean we can emulate them. We can still try to learn from them but the Hogan threads are full of folks who think they can try but has anyone succeeded. I make no claim about the value of European coaching and if my lottery ticket comes over I'll cross the pond for my coaching holiday.

In regard your point in the other post I'd have thought many if not most good golfers have a downswing under the backswing plane just not sure many folks could do it to the extent of Hogan and Norman.

I joined this discussion because I agree with your basic premise that getting the club on an extended path down the target line would be beneficial. The fact that I don't know how it could be done doesn't mean I promote hitting with the hands - I've flipped with the best of them and suffered for it.

Regards

[mikah]

[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1415833658' post='10437399']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1415813540' post='10435207']
[color=#282828]The style of the best in the world does not make it transferable to us mere mortals, we have to find some basics commensurate with our athleticism, build, age and ability. [/color]


[color=#282828]Thanks for the details on your instructors/instruction.[/color]

Suggest that the best in the world simply understood more than the rest of us,
it seems including golf instructors in Europe..c'est dommage


[/quote]

I agree that they understand more than the rest of us in the context of what made them the best. I think you understood my point that it does not necessarily mean we can emulate them. We can still try to learn from them but the Hogan threads are full of folks who think they can try but has anyone succeeded. I make no claim about the value of European coaching and if my lottery ticket comes over I'll cross the pond for my coaching holiday.

In regard your point in the other post I'd have thought many if not most good golfers have a downswing under the backswing plane just not sure many folks could do it to the extent of Hogan and Norman.

I joined this discussion because I agree with your basic premise that getting the club on an extended path down the target line would be beneficial. The fact that I don't know how it could be done doesn't mean I promote hitting with the hands - I've flipped with the best of them and suffered for it.

Regards
[/quote]


I think the key is that in golf we want the club face extending down the target line. In baseball its our hands.

[mikah]

Are there no instructors in NA or Europe who teach an 'underplane' golf swing? none?


MJ wrote:

Nope, only over- the-top, tumbling D - Planers now.

MJ,
I think you summed up golf instruction over the last 50 years, in less than 10 words... kudos


Moe said something similar
At 17:10, when he showed how he and Hogan pulled the left side through impact with right side lower; NOT LIKE they teach today, he said... demonstrating right hand over the left hand through impact.
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmmIBmX7eR8#t=1733"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmmIBmX7eR8#t=1733[/url]

[juststeve]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1415838852' post='10437797']
[quote name='Millbrook' timestamp='1415833658' post='10437399']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1415813540' post='10435207']
[color=#282828]The style of the best in the world does not make it transferable to us mere mortals, we have to find some basics commensurate with our athleticism, build, age and ability. [/color]


[color=#282828]Thanks for the details on your instructors/instruction.[/color]

Suggest that the best in the world simply understood more than the rest of us,
it seems including golf instructors in Europe..c'est dommage


[/quote]

I agree that they understand more than the rest of us in the context of what made them the best. I think you understood my point that it does not necessarily mean we can emulate them. We can still try to learn from them but the Hogan threads are full of folks who think they can try but has anyone succeeded. I make no claim about the value of European coaching and if my lottery ticket comes over I'll cross the pond for my coaching holiday.

In regard your point in the other post I'd have thought many if not most good golfers have a downswing under the backswing plane just not sure many folks could do it to the extent of Hogan and Norman.

I joined this discussion because I agree with your basic premise that getting the club on an extended path down the target line would be beneficial. The fact that I don't know how it could be done doesn't mean I promote hitting with the hands - I've flipped with the best of them and suffered for it.

Regards
[/quote]


I think the key is that in golf we want the club face extending down the target line. In baseball its our hands.
[/quote]

I'm sorry Mikah, but this is nonsense, and dangerous nonsense at that. In the swings of good ball strikers, virtually all, the club moves back to the inside after contact with the ball. The only way the club can extend down the target line for more than an inch or two is by disconnecting from the body and being pushed in that direction. Lots of duffers swing that way but no good ball strikers.

[mikah]

[color=#282828][size=3]I think the key is that in golf we want the club face extending down the target line. In baseball its our hands.[/size][/color]

[color=#282828]I'm sorry Mikah, but this is nonsense, and dangerous nonsense at that. In the swings of good ball strikers, virtually all, the club moves back to the inside after contact with the ball. The only way the club can extend down the target line for more than an inch or two is by disconnecting from the body and being pushed in that direction. Lots of duffers swing that way but no good ball strikers. [/color]


[color=#282828]Dangerous! teaching , spine engine and X factor are dangerous.[/color]

[color=#282828]What specifically do you refer to when you say 'the club' moves inside after impact?[/color]
[color=#282828]There is the butt end, the shaft, the club face.[/color]


[color=#282828]of course the butt end moves inside after impact[/color]
[color=#282828]How quickly the toe of the clubface catches up to the heel of the clubface is the issue.[/color]

[color=#282828]you dont seem to understand that a bent trail arm increases the area of impact. [/color]
[color=#282828]If you think that every golf shot simply requires repetition of one swing, like the One you practice is all one needs is misleading.[/color]

[color=#282828]Its rare that we have more than a couple of shots in a game that are identical to the one we practice. The conditions, the lies, balance conditions/slopes, and combinations of those parameters make almost every shot unique[/color]

[color=#282828]T[/color][color=#282828]he longer the area of impact the better.....the smaller the Area of Impact the more dangerous [/color]