Anybody here just swing the arms......

[TB07]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414142716' post='10343075']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413933159' post='10328937']

Also, again, regardless of your intent, the lower body initiates the downswing. It's been proven.
[/quote]
The question would be how do you teach lower body and footwork in the golf swing. Do you tell the people, not to move them consciously or do you tell them to actively use them?
[/quote]

Depends. Most need to learn to use the lower body correctly. Problem is when people try and use their lower body they often do it incorrectly which results in all kinds of issues.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1414146671' post='10343145']
[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414142716' post='10343075']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413933159' post='10328937']
Also, again, regardless of your intent, the lower body initiates the downswing. It's been proven.
[/quote]
The question would be how do you teach lower body and footwork in the golf swing. Do you tell the people, not to move them consciously or do you tell them to actively use them?
[/quote]

Depends. Most need to learn to use the lower body correctly. Problem is when people try and use their lower body they often do it incorrectly which results in all kinds of issues.
[/quote]

If we are talking about beginners, then absolutely they need to learn how to use their lower body correctly. But firstly they need to learn how to swing the arms correctly. One will enable the other. The latter (being lower body motion) can be tweaked later.

[TB07]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1414147973' post='10343179']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1414146671' post='10343145']
[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414142716' post='10343075']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413933159' post='10328937']
Also, again, regardless of your intent, the lower body initiates the downswing. It's been proven.
[/quote]
The question would be how do you teach lower body and footwork in the golf swing. Do you tell the people, not to move them consciously or do you tell them to actively use them?
[/quote]

Depends. Most need to learn to use the lower body correctly. Problem is when people try and use their lower body they often do it incorrectly which results in all kinds of issues.
[/quote]

If we are talking about beginners, then absolutely they need to learn how to use their lower body correctly. But firstly they need to learn how to swing the arms correctly. One will enable the other. The latter (being lower body motion) can be tweaked later.
[/quote]

Your statement is not correct or incorrect. It is an opinion. Every person is different in what they need.

[juststeve]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414142265' post='10343067']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1413898541' post='10325013']
Other than a few teachers doing it for demonstration purposes, I've never seen anyone swing with just their arms. It is very difficult to swing a golf club with the hands and arms without eliciting a response from the body. The quality of that response is related to the degree you hold your body in a relaxed and responsive state, and the quality of the swinging motion you are creating with your hands and arms.

I was taught to swing the club back with my hands until it is over the right shoulder. When I arrive there my shoulders have turned about 90 degrees, my back faces the target, and my hips have turned less than my shoulders. All of this is a reaction to my hands swinging the club back. I would not say that I have swung the club just with my arms but I have done nothing deliberately to move anything except the club.

Sorry if this is off the point of the question but I am annoyed by the suggestion that anyone thinks the club should be swung with just the arms.

Steve
[/quote]

Think in terms of action and reaction and you have a whole different approach to golf. What is action in your example and what is reaction?
[/quote]

Nerd:

Its not my action, its the one taught to me by Manuel de la Torre, credit where credit is due. To answer the question directly, in the back swing the action is the swinging of the club back with both hands until it is over the rear shoulder, the reaction is the response of the body. In the forward swing the action is the swinging of the whole club forward, in the direction of the target, the reaction is the response of the body.

There are a lot of good reasons why I think this is a superior way to play golf but you didn't ask about those.

Steve

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1414154531' post='10343409']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1414147973' post='10343179']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1414146671' post='10343145']
[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414142716' post='10343075']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1413933159' post='10328937']
Also, again, regardless of your intent, the lower body initiates the downswing. It's been proven.
[/quote]
The question would be how do you teach lower body and footwork in the golf swing. Do you tell the people, not to move them consciously or do you tell them to actively use them?
[/quote]

Depends. Most need to learn to use the lower body correctly. Problem is when people try and use their lower body they often do it incorrectly which results in all kinds of issues.
[/quote]

If we are talking about beginners, then absolutely they need to learn how to use their lower body correctly. But firstly they need to learn how to swing the arms correctly. One will enable the other. The latter (being lower body motion) can be tweaked later.
[/quote]

Your statement is not correct or incorrect. It is an opinion. Every person is different in what they need.
[/quote]

Sure it is, one held by other very reputable teachers but of course not by all. I don't believe you teach Tiger Woods presently like you would teach an absolute beginner. My observation is that many beginners and amateurs who struggle with the game (even those with good'ish handicaps and have played for many years) never learn to swing the club freely and fluidly. This ability to learn how to swing the club fluidly can be taught and learnt without a technical approach. Move the club fluidly from point A at set-up to point B the the top of the backswing then swing fluidly to point C at the finish. The feet together drill will help establish what these points are for each individual and develop rhythm, sequencing and balance. Their are of course other drills. Approached correctly, the body will react naturally and provide the body movements and positions necessary to facilitate the movement of the arms and club. Of course learning varies from person to person and some have a natural aptitude for the game so it isn't a linear progression for everyone. But ALL pros and capable players have this trait and most developed it at a young age during a time in their lives when they were ingraining lots of athletic motions. Some top feel players never stop playing this way, and a few completely lose their swings when they try to make technical 'improvements', and there are several famous examples. Get the swing first is my belief, and try to never lose it, and build from there.

[TB07]

Could be. But depends on each person regardless of their handicap.

[trapsmv15]

Thompson's hips very clearly engage and clear to start the chain of the downswing. Her arms lag waaaay behind.

I don't get the point of this thread with the examples presented.

I was expecting golfers like Sluman, Trahan, and Piercy.

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414155211' post='10343461']
[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414142265' post='10343067']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1413898541' post='10325013']
Other than a few teachers doing it for demonstration purposes, I've never seen anyone swing with just their arms. It is very difficult to swing a golf club with the hands and arms without eliciting a response from the body. The quality of that response is related to the degree you hold your body in a relaxed and responsive state, and the quality of the swinging motion you are creating with your hands and arms.

I was taught to swing the club back with my hands until it is over the right shoulder. When I arrive there my shoulders have turned about 90 degrees, my back faces the target, and my hips have turned less than my shoulders. All of this is a reaction to my hands swinging the club back. I would not say that I have swung the club just with my arms but I have done nothing deliberately to move anything except the club.

Sorry if this is off the point of the question but I am annoyed by the suggestion that anyone thinks the club should be swung with just the arms.

Steve
[/quote]

Think in terms of action and reaction and you have a whole different approach to golf. What is action in your example and what is reaction?
[/quote]

Nerd:

Its not my action, its the one taught to me by Manuel de la Torre, credit where credit is due. To answer the question directly, in the back swing the action is the swinging of the club back with both hands until it is over the rear shoulder, the reaction is the response of the body. In the forward swing the action is the swinging of the whole club forward, in the direction of the target, the reaction is the response of the body.

There are a lot of good reasons why I think this is a superior way to play golf but you didn't ask about those.

Steve
[/quote]

Sounds good to me. Actio is arm swing and reactio is body movement. Thanks for your kind answer!

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='trapsmv15' timestamp='1414162165' post='10343977']
Thompson's hips very clearly engage and clear to start the chain of the downswing. Her arms lag waaaay behind.

I don't get the point of this thread with the examples presented.

I was expecting golfers like Sluman, Trahan, and Piercy.
[/quote]

IMO the movement of the legs and hips are reactions to the intent to hit and to the movement of the upper body.
The range of motion differs a lot. There are no golfers rigid in their lower body. There is always movement.
Even golfers with their feet off the ground act to the upper body movement and intention to hit the ball.
The mass of the body offers enough resistance to execute a solid strike, but to loose the friction of the ground is no advantage at all.

[TB07]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414162800' post='10344043']
[quote name='trapsmv15' timestamp='1414162165' post='10343977']
Thompson's hips very clearly engage and clear to start the chain of the downswing. Her arms lag waaaay behind.

I don't get the point of this thread with the examples presented.

I was expecting golfers like Sluman, Trahan, and Piercy.
[/quote]

IMO the movement of the legs and hips are reactions to the intent to hit and to the movement of the upper body.
The range of motion differs a lot. There are no golfers rigid in their lower body. There is always movement.
Even golfers with their feet off the ground act to the upper body movement and intention to hit the ball.
The mass of the body offers enough resistance to execute a solid strike, but to loose the friction of the ground is no advantage at all.
[/quote]

The problem is that there is no way to quantify if it's a reaction to intent or not. When I threw a football during my senior year in high school and led my county in passing, I always used and was conscious of my lower body initiating the throw. My vision and intent was target but it was ALSO lower body. The golf swing is both arms and body regardless of method. You need a blend of both. What one thinks of to achieve the goal is unique to each individual.

[Golf nerd]

Was this lower body consciousness taught or natural from childhood?

[BrianB]

[quote name='trapsmv15' timestamp='1414162165' post='10343977']
Thompson's hips very clearly engage and clear to start the chain of the downswing. Her arms lag waaaay behind.

I don't get the point of this thread with the examples presented.
[/quote]

Agree.

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414171404' post='10344787']
Was this lower body consciousness taught or natural from childhood?
[/quote]

It may be hard to prove, but I'm doubtful that anyone would swing like Lexi without that lower body move being conscious at some point. Her hip turn is clearly driving the start of the swing, the arms initially drop a bit as the hip turn starts, but don't even begin to move forward until the hips are about sqare to the ball, and the left arm doesn't really separate from the chest much until the hips are almost fully turned.

Even if the swing thought was "get the hips out of the way", I think the sequence would have to be "get the hips out of the way, and then swing the arms". I think it's more likely though that golfers like Lexi and Rory were taught at some point that "the hips lead the downswing" or something similar.

That said, there is more than one way to do it. I think a better example of the swing thought described might be Chris Kirk?

[media=]http://youtu.be/Zppsl9FY9Ag[/media]
[media=]http://youtu.be/Jly5khrd8ew[/media]

Again, different people will get different results from a "feel", so it's hard to say for any one what their "feel" is, but I think most people told to swing with the arms and let the body follow naturally might end up looking closer to Kirk.

And that's if they get their weight forward at all. In fact I think a number of beginners with no instruction naturally try to swing with the arms, and end up with their weight too far back and stuggling to figure out why they can't stop slicing the ball. Even to swing like Kirk, you might have to be taught or learn (even if just through trial and error) something like Mike Austin's "step and throw" feel.

[TB07]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414171404' post='10344787']
Was this lower body consciousness taught or natural from childhood?
[/quote]

Early on as QB I had a tendency at times to not set my feet and the results were inaccurate throws. I had to work on footwork and be conscious of it all the time even in warm ups. The better my footwork the more accurate and powerful the throw.

[nicebutdim]

And this is another great dichotomy in golf. Trapmv15 and you have a different belief backed by your own experiences.... these are equally valid. Mine of course vary. A childhood friend of my was World Junior Golf Champion (and I knew a fair few others in my early teens that could break 80) and I remember there wasn't any in depth analysis of what was going on, and whoever seemed to have the most fluid swings were typically the best. We just played and had fun and tried to hit it far as we could.If it went slicing off to the right or hooked to the left we didn't care, just teed up another one, and a guess what (?) we slowly got more accurate and maintained our distance. At 15 I could drive it 250 yards without much going on in my head and to this day I can easily remember my swing thoughts, wide arc. Adults seem to want to approach the game in a different way. I saw lots of paralysis by analysis among my Dad's friends who took up the game late.... standing over the ball and you could see the cogs turning as they broke the swing down in their head, and then eventually duffed it (always fun to watch). Children learn language by nursery rhymes and songs and games, and some adults want to skip all this and force the process.

But I will concede that we all are different. I lose my swing when I over analyse and forget to swing fluidly. Growing up learning how to throw a ball wasn't an instant process, but if as a kid someone bombarded me with countless technical concepts about anatomically correct arm position and body movements and how to shift weight and proper hip rotation etc I'm sure the results would have been horrible, apart from the fact that I would would have found it incredibly boring and quit to do something else. I see parallels to when someone gets frustrated during a round and decides to just swing at one (without thinking) and stripes it. Is it really that easy? No. People forget that we spend countless hours ingraining athletic movements so its not a magic pill, just a way of approaching it.

This is McIlroy at age 9..... no mysteries here IMHO.

[sup][media=]http://youtu.be/eXRS-ATA3u8[/media][/sup]

And explaining what he thinks about to get the hips rotating. Not much apparently, just try and hit the ball a bit harder:

[sup][media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR5PTL7nHvI&list=UUd-9Xg_3RKD8J5DzE4Ph6NQ[/media][/sup]

[TB07]

Yea and again, as you said, everyone is different. McIlroy naturally did so e things well already. He didn't have to think or train certain things. I also agree over analysis won't work for anyone. The key is finding the root cause, and finding a feel or thought that achieves what your trying to fix. If someone thinks arm swing in order to get the correct sequence than more power to them. The proper movements we need in a golf swing are not a mystery. What piece is needed for each individual and the thoughts and feels that each individual needs are a little more mysterious, especially when self diagnosing.

[juststeve]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1414186940' post='10345969']
And this is another great dichotomy in golf. Trapmv15 and you have a different belief backed by your own experiences.... these are equally valid. Mine of course vary. A childhood friend of my was World Junior Golf Champion (and I knew a fair few others in my early teens that could break 80) and I remember there wasn't any in depth analysis of what was going, and whoever seemed to have the most fluid swings were typically the best. We just played and had fun and tried to hit it far as we could.If it went slicing off to the right or hooked to the left we didn't care, just teed up another one, and a guess what (?) we slowly got more accurate and maintained our distance. At 15 I could drive it 250 yards without much going on in my head and to this day I can easily remember my swing thoughts, wide arc. Adults seem to want to approach the game in a different way. I saw lots of paralysis by analysis among my Dad's friends who took up the game late.... standing over the ball and you could see the cogs turning as they broke the swing down in their head, and then eventually duffed it (always fun to watch). Children learn language by nursery rhymes and songs and games, and some adults want to skip all this and force the process.

But I will concede that we all are different. I lose my swing when I over analyse and forget to swing fluidly. Growing up learning how to throw a ball wasn't an instant process, but if as a kid someone bombarded me with countless technical concepts about anatomically correct arm position and body movements and how to shift weight and proper hip rotation etc I'm sure the results would have been horrible, apart from the fact that I would would have found it incredibly boring and quit to do something else. I see parallels to when someone gets frustrated during a round and decides to just swing at one (without thinking) and stripes it. Is it really that easy? No. People forget that we spend countless hours ingraining athletic movements so its not a magic pill, just a way of approaching it.

This is McIlroy at age 9..... no mysteries here IMHO.

[sup][media=]http://youtu.be/eXRS-ATA3u8[/media][/sup]

And explaining what he thinks about to get the hips rotating. Not much apparently, just try and hit the ball a bit harder:

[sup][media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR5PTL7nHvI&list=UUd-9Xg_3RKD8J5DzE4Ph6NQ[/media][/sup]
[/quote]

If you listen to Rory you will find something very instructive. When he hits the ball harder his hips turn faster, They don't turn them faster to hit it harder, they turn faster because he's trying to hit it harder. In other words, the faster hip turn is a reaction to what he is doing with the club. If you have ears to hear, listen.

Steve

[Biomateur]

Google Johnny Farrell before you start to praise Rory.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1414187322' post='10345991']
Yea and again, as you said, everyone is different. McIlroy naturally did so e things well already. He didn't have to think or train certain things. I also agree over analysis won't work for anyone. The key is finding the root cause, and finding a feel or thought that achieves what your trying to fix. If someone thinks arm swing in order to get the correct sequence than more power to them. The proper movements we need in a golf swing are not a mystery. What piece is needed for each individual and the thoughts and feels that each individual needs are a little more mysterious, especially when self diagnosing.
[/quote]

Yes I agree everyone is different, but I started this thread drawing attention to certain Tour Players who I termed clear "arm swingers" with reactive lower bodies. Fairly enough it was challenged, and I was lucky enough to find the video of McIlroy which at least verifies what his intentions are. So I also agree that the only way to know 100% intent and feel in a particular swing is to ask someone, and I hope to find a few other confirmations (or even rebuttals!). The reason I grouped together McIlroy, Thompson, Reed and Cabrera is because they all explode up with the legs, which straighten into impact (not to mention the release of the arms, more pronounced in Reed and Thompson). How did I make the connection between these body movement and strong arm swinging intent? Its because I also happen to do this in my swing, and more prominently when I swing extra hard...... and it is just as I described in the original OP, I swing hard with the arms and club on the desired arc and let my legs react to get out of the way so nothing slows down. I'm certainly aware of them jumping up and straightening, but my intent is to swing my arms through as quickly as possible, and any motion of the lower body feels reactive to this no matter how pronounced it can be.

Unfortunately I had to start generalizing which was not my aim. But I will again, all good players swing the club freely, and it is a primary intent before mechanics. Thats the mystery as to why every swing on tour looks different, some radically so, yet they all get similar results. If someone doesn't 'naturally' (as you put it) swing freely then I believe they should begin the process to learn how. And I would argue that only in rare circumstances is this not possible.

[gaz7788]

How to swing freely?

[juststeve]

[quote name='gaz7788' timestamp='1414205364' post='10347331']
How to swing freely?
[/quote]

You swing freely by ignoring the ball to the greatest extent you can. You swing the club. The balls is in the way and it's the club's responsibility to hit the ball and get it in the air. People who can't swing freely are hitting at the ball.


Steve

[tstephen]

I am in my mid 50's and it seems like every joint in my body has gone out.

At 6'1" I could dunk(no slam in the equation) a basketball in my yute.

By my 40's I could not even touch the net, yet still carried my driver very long.

Now in my 50's I don't even attempt jumping but still expect 280 carries.

I can use my lower body down to my long irons but that's it and 260 carry is a great drive.

Just last night when I was hitting balls and not turning my lower body back with the driver...

I tried picking up my left heel alla Jack in his prime and old/young Watsons(Tom/Bubba).

I instantly picked up 10 yards of carry with the driver but could not get the timing with my 3 wood.

Next course of action is just that, taking it to the course and see what or how good this flies.

Edit....just realized with Bubba it would be his right heel.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414251993' post='10348903']
[quote name='gaz7788' timestamp='1414205364' post='10347331']
How to swing freely?
[/quote]

You swing freely by ignoring the ball to the greatest extent you can. You swing the club. The balls is in the way and it's the club's responsibility to hit the ball and get it in the air. People who can't swing freely are hitting at the ball.


Steve
[/quote]

I've already mentioned the feet together drill, but could you elaborate on Manuel De La Torre's swing method relating to swinging the hands and upper arms. I know you have probably done this dozens of times before but I think it would be really helpful for this thread.....

[tstephen]

[quote name='BrianB' timestamp='1414173930' post='10344971']
[quote name='trapsmv15' timestamp='1414162165' post='10343977']
Thompson's hips very clearly engage and clear to start the chain of the downswing. Her arms lag waaaay behind.

I don't get the point of this thread with the examples presented.
[/quote]

Agree.

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1414171404' post='10344787']
Was this lower body consciousness taught or natural from childhood?
[/quote]

It may be hard to prove, but I'm doubtful that anyone would swing like Lexi without that lower body move being conscious at some point. Her hip turn is clearly driving the start of the swing, the arms initially drop a bit as the hip turn starts, but don't even begin to move forward until the hips are about sqare to the ball, and the left arm doesn't really separate from the chest much until the hips are almost fully turned.

Even if the swing thought was "get the hips out of the way", I think the sequence would have to be "get the hips out of the way, and then swing the arms". I think it's more likely though that golfers like Lexi and Rory were taught at some point that "the hips lead the downswing" or something similar.

That said, there is more than one way to do it. I think a better example of the swing thought described might be Chris Kirk?

[media=]http://youtu.be/Zppsl9FY9Ag[/media]
[media=]http://youtu.be/Jly5khrd8ew[/media]

Again, different people will get different results from a "feel", so it's hard to say for any one what their "feel" is, but I think most people told to swing with the arms and let the body follow naturally might end up looking closer to Kirk.

And that's if they get their weight forward at all. In fact I think a number of beginners with no instruction naturally try to swing with the arms, and end up with their weight too far back and stuggling to figure out why they can't stop slicing the ball. Even to swing like Kirk, you might have to be taught or learn (even if just through trial and error) something like Mike Austin's "step and throw" feel.
[/quote]

Kirk hits an ugly looking hook off the tee.

Does anyone know if Austin hit a hook, fade or just straight and super deep?

[juststeve]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1414253177' post='10348995']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414251993' post='10348903']
[quote name='gaz7788' timestamp='1414205364' post='10347331']
How to swing freely?
[/quote]

You swing freely by ignoring the ball to the greatest extent you can. You swing the club. The balls is in the way and it's the club's responsibility to hit the ball and get it in the air. People who can't swing freely are hitting at the ball.


Steve
[/quote]

I've already mentioned the feet together drill, but could you elaborate on Manuel De La Torre's swing method relating to swinging the hands and upper arms. I know you have probably done this dozens of times before but I think it would be really helpful for this thread.....
[/quote]

With regard to swinging freely I have already suggested ignoring the ball. That comes directly from Manny. When he taught me from a beginner who had never even hit a golf ball he began without a ball. Only when I proved to him that I could make the club swing on an arc around a fixed swing center did he introduce the ball. So long as I made the swinging motion hitting the ball was automatic.

Also with regard to swinging freely, first make sure you are swinging at all. Most golfers don't swing, they push the club, pull the club, lever the club or just use the club to swipe at the ball. To swing the club is to move it on an arc, around a fixed axis. in the manner of a pendulum swinging on an incline plane. Have you ever seen a pendulum that did not swing smoothly and freely. To swing smoothly and freely yourself, imitate the pendulum. The axis remains stationary. The club pick up speed gradually from the top to impact. The club moves smoothly through the impact area. No sudden inputs of force, no sudden inputs of tension, no leverage.

Just some ideas of Manny's on swinging freely and smoothly.

Steve

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414337128' post='10352895']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1414253177' post='10348995']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414251993' post='10348903']
[quote name='gaz7788' timestamp='1414205364' post='10347331']
How to swing freely?
[/quote]

You swing freely by ignoring the ball to the greatest extent you can. You swing the club. The balls is in the way and it's the club's responsibility to hit the ball and get it in the air. People who can't swing freely are hitting at the ball.


Steve
[/quote]

I've already mentioned the feet together drill, but could you elaborate on Manuel De La Torre's swing method relating to swinging the hands and upper arms. I know you have probably done this dozens of times before but I think it would be really helpful for this thread.....
[/quote]

With regard to swinging freely I have already suggested ignoring the ball. That comes directly from Manny. When he taught me from a beginner who had never even hit a golf ball he began without a ball. Only when I proved to him that I could make the club swing on an arc around a fixed swing center did he introduce the ball. So long as I made the swinging motion hitting the ball was automatic.

Also with regard to swinging freely, first make sure you are swinging at all. Most golfers don't swing, they push the club, pull the club, lever the club or just use the club to swipe at the ball. To swing the club is to move it on an arc, around a fixed axis. in the manner of a pendulum swinging on an incline plane. Have you ever seen a pendulum that did not swing smoothly and freely. To swing smoothly and freely yourself, imitate the pendulum. The axis remains stationary. The club pick up speed gradually from the top to impact. The club moves smoothly through the impact area. No sudden inputs of force, no sudden inputs of tension, no leverage.

Just some ideas of Manny's on swinging freely and smoothly.

Steve
[/quote]

Thanks a lot. Did MDLT ever talk about keeping width in the swing? You can clearly see the width in McIlroy's as a 9 year old, and it is a very important key for me to swing well.

[ALIF]

My hips move so fast that my swing thought has to be start with my arms, lead with the right elbow. If I use anything other than this swing thought, it's stuck city.

[juststeve]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1414344640' post='10353275']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414337128' post='10352895']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1414253177' post='10348995']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414251993' post='10348903']
[quote name='gaz7788' timestamp='1414205364' post='10347331']
How to swing freely?
[/quote]

You swing freely by ignoring the ball to the greatest extent you can. You swing the club. The balls is in the way and it's the club's responsibility to hit the ball and get it in the air. People who can't swing freely are hitting at the ball.


Steve
[/quote]

I've already mentioned the feet together drill, but could you elaborate on Manuel De La Torre's swing method relating to swinging the hands and upper arms. I know you have probably done this dozens of times before but I think it would be really helpful for this thread.....
[/quote]

With regard to swinging freely I have already suggested ignoring the ball. That comes directly from Manny. When he taught me from a beginner who had never even hit a golf ball he began without a ball. Only when I proved to him that I could make the club swing on an arc around a fixed swing center did he introduce the ball. So long as I made the swinging motion hitting the ball was automatic.

Also with regard to swinging freely, first make sure you are swinging at all. Most golfers don't swing, they push the club, pull the club, lever the club or just use the club to swipe at the ball. To swing the club is to move it on an arc, around a fixed axis. in the manner of a pendulum swinging on an incline plane. Have you ever seen a pendulum that did not swing smoothly and freely. To swing smoothly and freely yourself, imitate the pendulum. The axis remains stationary. The club pick up speed gradually from the top to impact. The club moves smoothly through the impact area. No sudden inputs of force, no sudden inputs of tension, no leverage.

Just some ideas of Manny's on swinging freely and smoothly.

Steve
[/quote]

Thanks a lot. Did MDLT ever talk about keeping width in the swing? You can clearly see the width in McIlroy's as a 9 year old, and it is a very important key for me to swing well.
[/quote]

If you feel you are too narrow I would first ask if you are really swinging the club back as opposed to levering it or lifting it. Swinging produces width. Consider the weight being swung on the end of a string. As long as it is swung the string remains taught. Taught = wide.

If that not enough right away, focus on the radius of your swing. It is the distance between your swing center and the butt of the club. It should remain constant back and through.

If you are narrow at the top, just make sure your hands stay away from your head at the top of the back swing.

One or more of these should do the trick.

Steve

[mikah]

If you listen to Rory you will find something very instructive. When he hits the ball harder his hips turn faster, They don't turn them faster to hit it harder, they turn faster because he's trying to hit it harder. In other words, the faster hip turn is a reaction to what he is doing with the club. If you have ears to hear, listen.



Rory said, “I just think, hit it a little harder”
The hip turn and every other movement of his body is a reaction to his intention.


Sam Snead was once asked how he hit a hook. He said, “I think ‘hook.’”

[url="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/golf/golf-news/rubenstein-time-to-feel-not-to-think-or-overthink/article550786/"]http://www.theglobea.../article550786/[/url]

[Moleman]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414337128' post='10352895']
You swing freely by ignoring the ball to the greatest extent you can. You swing the club. The balls is in the way and it's the club's responsibility to hit the ball and get it in the air. People who can't swing freely are hitting at the ball


Also with regard to swinging freely, first make sure you are swinging at all. Most golfers don't swing, they push the club, pull the club, lever the club or just use the club to swipe at the ball.

The axis remains stationary. The club pick up speed gradually from the top to impact. The club moves smoothly through the impact area. No sudden inputs of force, no sudden inputs of tension, no leverage.

Just some ideas of Manny's on swinging freely and smoothly.

Steve
[/quote]

Thanks for these thoughts Steve, very interesting and something I aspire to consistently achieve, unfortunately I'm still in the "use the club to swipe at the ball" phase. Whenever I manage to go an entire round just simply swinging the club with no tension the difference and ball striking experience is amazing..

Do you use the same free swing technique regardless of club or shot?

[juststeve]

[quote name='Moleman' timestamp='1414511999' post='10362319']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1414337128' post='10352895']
You swing freely by ignoring the ball to the greatest extent you can. You swing the club. The balls is in the way and it's the club's responsibility to hit the ball and get it in the air. People who can't swing freely are hitting at the ball


Also with regard to swinging freely, first make sure you are swinging at all. Most golfers don't swing, they push the club, pull the club, lever the club or just use the club to swipe at the ball.

The axis remains stationary. The club pick up speed gradually from the top to impact. The club moves smoothly through the impact area. No sudden inputs of force, no sudden inputs of tension, no leverage.

Just some ideas of Manny's on swinging freely and smoothly.

Steve
[/quote]

Thanks for these thoughts Steve, very interesting and something I aspire to consistently achieve, unfortunately I'm still in the "use the club to swipe at the ball" phase. Whenever I manage to go an entire round just simply swinging the club with no tension the difference and ball striking experience is amazing..

Do you use the same free swing technique regardless of club or shot?
[/quote]

I strive to just swing the club no matter the shot, but like everyone else I sometimes fall prey to the impulse to hit the ball instead of swing the club. The result when I do are often poor.

Steve