Anybody here just swing the arms......

[juststeve]

If the butt of the club moves inside after impact as you admit, does the club head not follow? Of course it does. They are connected by a shaft you know. They move in the same direction, the club head simply lags behind the butt until it overtakes and passes the butt of the club. If the butt moves to the inside the head will soon follow.

If you think me wrong post some video of good ball strikers who do not allow the club to move to the inside after contact with the ball.

Steve

[Biomateur]

There are patterns handle goes in and clubhead out.

[mikah]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1415996766' post='10447749']
If the butt of the club moves inside after impact as you admit, does the club head not follow? Of course it does. They are connected by a shaft you know. They move in the same direction, the club head simply lags behind the butt until it overtakes and passes the butt of the club. If the butt moves to the inside the head will soon follow.

If you think me wrong post some video of good ball strikers who do not allow the club to move to the inside after contact with the ball.

Steve
[/quote]


That is the difference, IMO
how quickly and when does the club face catch up to the hands.


Suggest that Ben Hogans club face didnt catch up to his hands until well after club shaft was parallel to the ground after impact.

ie if we define release, as when cup returns to left wrist

its not wrong or right; but when,
there is release.

[juststeve]

[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1415999709' post='10447985']
There are patterns handle goes in and clubhead out.
[/quote]

Both the handle and the club head are swinging on an arc. They both move from the inside outward, then back in. Because the club head is trailing the handle there is a point where the handle has started moving back inside while the club head is still moving out. That's not some patterns, its all good swings if you look closely. , There is also a point when the handle has started moving up before the club head finishes moving down. Neither are done intentionally, it is the natural result of swinging on an inclined arc with the club head trailing the hands.

If the proper swing were as Mikah describes both the handle and the club head would be going down the line past impact disconnecting from the body in the process. That's just not what good ball strikers do, because, golf isn't baseball.

Steve

[juststeve]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1416001148' post='10448111']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1415996766' post='10447749']
If the butt of the club moves inside after impact as you admit, does the club head not follow? Of course it does. They are connected by a shaft you know. They move in the same direction, the club head simply lags behind the butt until it overtakes and passes the butt of the club. If the butt moves to the inside the head will soon follow.

If you think me wrong post some video of good ball strikers who do not allow the club to move to the inside after contact with the ball.

Steve
[/quote]


That is the difference, IMO
how quickly and when does the club face catch up to the hands.


Suggest that Ben Hogans club face didnt catch up to his hands until well after club shaft was parallel to the ground after impact.

ie if we define release, as when cup returns to left wrist

its not wrong or right; but when,
there is release.
[/quote]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1416001148' post='10448111']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1415996766' post='10447749']
If the butt of the club moves inside after impact as you admit, does the club head not follow? Of course it does. They are connected by a shaft you know. They move in the same direction, the club head simply lags behind the butt until it overtakes and passes the butt of the club. If the butt moves to the inside the head will soon follow.

If you think me wrong post some video of good ball strikers who do not allow the club to move to the inside after contact with the ball.

Steve
[/quote]


That is the difference, IMO
how quickly and when does the club face catch up to the hands.


Suggest that Ben Hogans club face didnt catch up to his hands until well after club shaft was parallel to the ground after impact.

ie if we define release, as when cup returns to left wrist

its not wrong or right; but when,
there is release.
[/quote]

You have now changed the topic, apparently finally realizing that in all good ball strikers the club head is allowed to swing back to the inside after impact, not chased down the target line. . Now you want to talk about release with your own idiosyncratic definition of release, a new topic. Sorry but I don't intend to play any more.

Steve.

[Biomateur]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1416002364' post='10448207']
[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1415999709' post='10447985']
There are patterns handle goes in and clubhead out.
[/quote]

Both the handle and the club head are swinging on an arc. They both move from the inside outward, then back in. Because the club head is trailing the handle there is a point where the handle has started moving back inside while the club head is still moving out. That's not some patterns, its all good swings if you look closely. , There is also a point when the handle has started moving up before the club head finishes moving down. Neither are done intentionally, it is the natural result of swinging on an inclined arc with the club head trailing the hands.

If the proper swing were as Mikah describes both the handle and the club head would be going down the line past impact disconnecting from the body in the process. That's just not what good ball strikers do, because, golf isn't baseball.

Steve
[/quote]

Yes, but think 3D.

[juststeve]

[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1416003787' post='10448301']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1416002364' post='10448207']
[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1415999709' post='10447985']
There are patterns handle goes in and clubhead out.
[/quote]

Both the handle and the club head are swinging on an arc. They both move from the inside outward, then back in. Because the club head is trailing the handle there is a point where the handle has started moving back inside while the club head is still moving out. That's not some patterns, its all good swings if you look closely. , There is also a point when the handle has started moving up before the club head finishes moving down. Neither are done intentionally, it is the natural result of swinging on an inclined arc with the club head trailing the hands.

If the proper swing were as Mikah describes both the handle and the club head would be going down the line past impact disconnecting from the body in the process. That's just not what good ball strikers do, because, golf isn't baseball.

Steve
[/quote]

Yes, but think 3D.
[/quote]

I think I accounted for what you call 3D by describing both the out to in aspect of the swing and the up and down aspect. It is not however 3D because all the motion occurs on a single tilted plane, or as nearly to as possible. Think of a pendulum moving on an oblique angle. It moves on a single plane but the plane is tilted.

A pendulum should be our model because 1) a pendulums traces the same arc consistently, 2) bottoms out in the same place consistently and 3) reaches maximum velocity at the low point of the arc. Don't you want your s3wing to do those things?

Steve

[Biomateur]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1416004370' post='10448333']
[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1416003787' post='10448301']
[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1416002364' post='10448207']
[quote name='Biomateur' timestamp='1415999709' post='10447985']
There are patterns handle goes in and clubhead out.
[/quote]

Both the handle and the club head are swinging on an arc. They both move from the inside outward, then back in. Because the club head is trailing the handle there is a point where the handle has started moving back inside while the club head is still moving out. That's not some patterns, its all good swings if you look closely. , There is also a point when the handle has started moving up before the club head finishes moving down. Neither are done intentionally, it is the natural result of swinging on an inclined arc with the club head trailing the hands.

If the proper swing were as Mikah describes both the handle and the club head would be going down the line past impact disconnecting from the body in the process. That's just not what good ball strikers do, because, golf isn't baseball.

Steve
[/quote]

Yes, but think 3D.
[/quote]

I think I accounted for what you call 3D by describing both the out to in aspect of the swing and the up and down aspect. It is not however 3D because all the motion occurs on a single tilted plane, or as nearly to as possible. Think of a pendulum moving on an oblique angle. It moves on a single plane but the plane is tilted.

A pendulum should be our model because 1) a pendulums traces the same arc consistently, 2) bottoms out in the same place consistently and 3) reaches maximum velocity at the low point of the arc. Don't you want your s3wing to do those things?

Steve
[/quote]

No. You still don't think 3D.

[mikah]

[color=#282828]No. You still don't think 3D. [/color]



[color=#282828]biomateur,[/color]

[color=#282828]I think he 's wishing he knew how to quit you.. too. LOL[/color]

[Biomateur]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1416008920' post='10448641']
[color=#282828]No. You still don't think 3D. [/color]



[color=#282828]biomateur,[/color]

[color=#282828]I think he 's wishing he knew how to quit you.. too. LOL[/color]
[/quote]

Could you repeat it in Italian ?

http://youtu.be/bHfBhuEPf1g

[bzmuda]

[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1415989122' post='10447139']
[color=#282828][size=3]I think the key is that in golf we want the club face extending down the target line. In baseball its our hands.[/size][/color]

[color=#282828]I'm sorry Mikah, but this is nonsense, and dangerous nonsense at that. In the swings of good ball strikers, virtually all, the club moves back to the inside after contact with the ball. The only way the club can extend down the target line for more than an inch or two is by disconnecting from the body and being pushed in that direction. Lots of duffers swing that way but no good ball strikers. [/color]


[color=#282828]Dangerous! teaching , spine engine and X factor are dangerous.[/color]

[color=#282828]What specifically do you refer to when you say 'the club' moves inside after impact?[/color]
[color=#282828]There is the butt end, the shaft, the club face.[/color]
[color=#282828]of course the butt end moves inside after impact[/color]
[color=#282828]How quickly the toe of the clubface catches up to the heel of the clubface is the issue.[/color]

[color=#282828]you dont seem to understand that a bent trail arm increases the area of impact. [/color]

[color=#282828]If you think that every golf shot simply requires repetition of one swing, like the One you practice is all one needs is misleading.[/color]

[color=#282828]Its rare that we have more than a couple of shots in a game that are identical to the one we practice. The conditions, the lies, balance conditions/slopes, and combinations of those parameters make almost every shot unique[/color]

[color=#282828]T[/color][color=#282828]he longer the area of impact the better.....the smaller the Area of Impact the more dangerous [/color]
[/quote]


1) What is a basic description of spine engine and how is it dangerous?

2) Are you suggesting that the rate of closure of the clubface has a stall near impact?

3) How does the bent trail arm increase the area that is the collision of the club with the ball?

4) Do you agree with this:
"You should be able to hit fine, full shots as well as hit the ball high, low, draw it, fade it, play sand shots, recovery shots- ALL WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR SWING. It's the swing itself that gives you a feel for managing this full variety of golf shots" -Ben Hogan

Thanks in advance for your thoughts Mikah. I enjoy your posts

[mikah]

[size=3]1) What is a basic description of spine engine and how is it dangerous?[/size]

IMO, we turn our torso in golf swing, we use our scapular ROM, and pivot on our hip joints(ball and socket).
If we torque our spine we risk creating permanent immobility.
“Supra omne, non noce”

If you want to see dangerous golf instruction video, google , ‘spine engine golf’.



[size=3]2) Are you suggesting that the rate of closure of the clubface has a stall near impact?[/size]


Suggesting closure of the clubface is unnecessary.


[size=3]3) How does the bent trail arm increase the area that is the collision of the club with the ball?[/size]

Impact is 6 -8 ten thousandths of a second.
Bent trail arm, with no closure of the clubface increases the area of impact, not the duration of impact.
Ie the ball can be anywhere along that A of I
whereas a golf swing with toe catching up to the heel at impact is timing dependent and restricts area of impact to a very small area...


[size=3]4) Do you agree with this:
"You should be able to hit fine, full shots as well as hit the ball high, low, draw it, fade it, play sand shots, recovery shots- ALL WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR SWING. It's the swing itself that gives you a feel for managing this full variety of golf shots" -Ben Hogan[/size]

Agree that Ben Hogan, Lee Trevino and Moe Norman had golf swings, where club face never closed and area of impact was as long as humanly possible.

Their swings were adaptable to every type of shot because ball position relative to the Area of Impact, determine trajectory and shot shape, rather than timing or changing clubface closure in ¼ second of DS, for 6 ten thousandths of second(impact).

good questions, bzmuda