Some ideas about the trail arm straightening

[iteachgolf]

Over 45* in almost all swings. I'm the one who brought up moi. I never said right arm straightening slows down the hands. I said uncocking the wrist slows down the hands. You are literally repeating what I explained to you now like yea I got it right all the time.

[mikah]

[color=#282828][size=3]

Hi Mikah, go back and read the terms of service, and I'm still waiting for you to step it up a notch. Really, exceptionally, almost droll, but all told, boring.[/size][/color]


[color=#282828]You're reaching, i'm not Mikah. If you bothered to read any of my posts in this thread you will see that I disagreed with Mikah. Oh yeah I forgot in your world that means I agreed with him...lol! Eightiron knows who I am.[/color]



[color=#282828]OK , PICK, what's your problem. One identity at a time not enough for you?[/color]
[color=#282828]Passing yourself as me, now? LOL[/color]

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416598900' post='10484355']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1416593943' post='10483895']
[color=#282828]But Mikah the bat doesn't speed up and get long because the hands slow down. The hands slow down because the bat gets long. The intent is to speed up the end up of the bat and make it as long as possible. You better believe the right arm is actively straightened. The speeding up the bat to get inline with the left arm is what slows the hands down. Not the other way around. The intent is to speed up and not slow down. The right arm is definitely not just along for the ride when hitting a baseball. The top arm and hand is extremely active when hitting. A better isn't just letting the bat catch up yo hit hands. He's actively trying to get it to catch and then pass his hands as quick as possible. It's not just a byproduct of CF. It's EXTREMELY active intent. The slowing down is an effect of actively lengthening the bat. It's an effect. Not a cause[/color]

[color=#282828]safe to say that you do not agree with TPI about the kinematic sequence?[/color]

[b]Kinematic Sequence[/b] TPI's philosophy on the swing goes something like this, [i]"We don't believe there is one way to swing a club, we believe there are an infinite number of ways to swing a club. But we do believe that there is one efficient way for everyone to swing and it is based on what they can physically do."[/i] The kinematic sequence is by far the most important takeaway for myself especially with the demographic I train. Basically it doesn't matter how your swing looks or closely resembles Tiger Woods or Ernie Els. The most important part for sustained success is in the efficiency of your swing! All of the greatest rotational athletes in golf, baseball, softball, punching, kicking, etc. have the most efficient production and transfer of power. The key points to understand about the kinematic sequence are the following:

[b]1) All rotational power follows an identical sequence. The sequence is[/b]: 1[sup]st[/sup]: Legs 2[sup]nd[/sup]: Torso 3[sup]rd[/sup]: Lead Arm 4[sup]th[/sup]: Implement (Golf Club, Bat, Ball, etc.)
[b]2) All segments of the body build on the previous. [/b]The fastest will be the club or implement, followed by lead arm, torso, and legs.
[b]3) Each area of the body decelerates as the next area accelerates. [/b]Think of a whip. You quickly accelerate the handle followed by a rapid deceleration to produce the most forceful snap. Your legs are the handle and the club is the "snap".
[b]4) The style of your swing might have no effect on your ability to generate a good kinematic sequence![/b]
[/quote]

Actually they are agreeing with me. Saying the previous segment decelerates as the next segment accelerates. Meaning that the acceleration of the next segment slows down the previous.

You are in way over your head and you have cause and effect backwards. I said the hands slow down. But they slow down as a reaction to the speeding up the end up of the bat/club or IOW increasing the radius/making bat long.

Or short to and long through like any hitting coach teaches.
[/quote][quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416608180' post='10485273']
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]"[/background][/size][/color][color=#282828]The MOI of the orbiting clubhead is a squared function of the radius of it's arc of rotation, so as your wrists unc*ck, that radius increases, and MOI of clubhead increases substantially. Since the wrist joint at this point in the swing has very low internal forces (essentially acting as a free pivot joint) angular momentum is largely conserved during release. Due to COAM then, the hands/arms slow down significantly just prior to impact, moreso the later the release point.[/color][color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)] [/background][/size][/color][color=#282828]The MOI of anything can be calculated about any axis of rotation. In the example I'm talking about, the Cg of the clubhead about the (ever changing) axis of rotation of the entire clubhead as it orbits around the golfer. The MOI of a point mass (or Cg of clubhead) is a squared function of the radius of rotation. This is why you can really see the hands slow down near impact in a golfer with a ton of lag, even if that golfer is trying to resist that slow down and is driving their hands forward as hard as possible. [/color][color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]"[/background][/size][/color]

[color=#282828]the "crack the whip" analogy is a very poor one and not applicable in a golf swing, as the sonic boom is created in the whip is due to the propagating wave in a tapered whip. [/color]

[color=#282828]​Rest of the body works the same. The [/color][color=#282828]sudden increase in MOI of the system slows down each part sequentially. There are other factors but this creates a [/color][color=#282828]resistance. There isn't enough instant acceleration to compensate and keep the other parts moving at the same speed.[/color]
[/quote][quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1416607459' post='10485189']
[quote name='mikah' timestamp='1416603998' post='10484861']
[b]TPI: "The sequence is[/b]: 1[sup]st[/sup]: Legs 2[sup]nd[/sup]: Torso 3[sup]rd[/sup]: Lead Arm 4[sup]th[/sup]: Implement (Golf Club, Bat, Ball, etc.) "

So for those hard of understanding:

prior to impact, the legs slow down first, that speeds up the torso,

then the torso decelerates, which speeds up the lead arm

then the lead arm decelerates, which speeds up the golf club or bat..... like a bull whip.

TPI: "Think of a whip. You quickly accelerate the handle followed by a rapid deceleration to produce the most forceful snap. Your legs are the handle and the club is the “snap”.
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjotejhorP0#t=80"]https://www.youtube....jotejhorP0#t=80[/url]

understand why we wear seatbelts for those occasions when the car decelerates suddenly?

the faster we decelerate the arms, the faster we accelerate the clubhead

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7iYZPp2zYY"]https://www.youtube....h?v=d7iYZPp2zYY[/url]
[/quote]

Again you have cause and effect backwards. When a car slams on the brakes you are moving faster relative to the car but not faster relative to the ground. You are not actually speeding up when a car slams on its brakes. You are actually decelerating. Just at a slower rate than the car is decelerating. Again nobody in any athletic activity should try to slow down the arms or the hands. That would lead to less speed not more. The hands slow down as the radius of the club or bat gets longer. It is the lengthening of this radius which slows down the hands. The wrist uncocking slow the hands down not the other way around.
[/quote]

These are quotes. I've been extremely consistent in stating that the rapid acceleration of the next segment is what slows the previous segment. This is now what you are claiming you've been saying all along when you were arguing the opposite. I literally explained how it worked to you and now you are regurgitating it back to me like you are teaching me. I never said the straightening of the trail arm slows the hands. The uncocking of the wrist slows the hands. The straightening of the right arm does rapidly speed up the arms/hands which does slow down the shoulders. Which is exactly what I said and why I used the example of the guys that keep it too bent too long coming down MUST stall their shoulders through impact as they straighten it rapidly at the last second. And why a guy like Sergio who begins extending his arm early, but then extends more gradually through impact doesn't slow down the shoulders as much. Anyone who reads the thread can see I've been saying the same thing the entire time. I just explained it simply so everyone could understand. Which is what you can do when you truly know what you're talking about. I don't need big words to try and cover up my ignorance

The even funnier thing is you thing this is making me angry. This is making me literally LOL. The fact that you think everyone can't see your lies and backpedalling is comical. You'd make a great politician.

[iteachgolf]

the thread is about trail arm extending in downswing.

yes agree the weight of the arms moving away from the torso in DS increases the MOI and torso decelerates as a result.

 

That does not mean that the trail arm has to lose the bend in the elbow. Trail arm can stay bent (the Babe, Jetter , Moe)

 

Timing the extension of the trail arm creates timing issues EE, OTT, humping , stalling, on and on... misses left and right.

 

So now you completely change your tune and act like you were saying the next segment accelerating slows down the previous the entire time. Your entire argument was that slowing down the previous increased speed in the next. Which I told you was backwards and incorrect.

 

Btw the rear arm does have to straighten and does lose flex in ALL golf swings in the downswing. You actually earlier agreed it straightened but it was CF that did it and the batter had no choice, also wrong. Now you claim the trail arm doesn't lose flex at all. Again you keep moving the goal post and changing your answers acting like you had it right the whole time. Not fooling anyone

 

 

settle...take a prozac

 

 

I havent changed my tune. Your so insecure about your lack of knowledge( a professional instructor?)

MOI increases as weight of arms moves away from our torso. That starts deceleration in our lower body, then torso, then arms, then hands.

 

... NO CHANGE

 

and you still havent explained how the lower body decelerates before the hands decelerate, when YOU SAY,

that the extension of the trail arm causes the hands to decelerate.

 

BTW the trail elbow does not have to straighten, until after impact. The Babe and Ben Hogan proved that. Its obviously impossible for you to open your mind. Try with our eyes.....no? ...ok give up.. go back to your tricep

So do you want to lock that in that hogans right arm is bent the same amount at the top of the swing and impact?

 

 

and how much did it move, anal boy?

 

you guys who have not clue how Hogan did what he did, so you;ve got to invent sh#% so you can live with that fact

 

 

 

 

Btw Hogan's right arm straightened a lot coming down. Not some insignificant amount like you imply. It straightens between 45 and 70* depending on the swing coming down.

[ALIF]

Mikah sounds like KG. Lol!

[northgolf]

[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1416643098' post='10487115']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1416635853' post='10487003']
[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1416634819' post='10486965']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1416634373' post='10486959']
[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1416633026' post='10486899']
By the way I thought you were done with me...why the change of heart? Just bugs you doesn't it that I don't disagree with you...lol!

[/quote]

Thank you for reminding me, but I thought I said I was done with Mikah - I have to admit it's hard to tell you two apart.

I don't mind disagreement at all, I just would like you to display intelligence, elegance, and grace in your posts when you disagree (I've read enough of your posts not to expect substance - form, do you think you could do form?).

As I said, step it up a notch, right now we have *yawn*. Seriously, you're brilliant - let it out.
[/quote]



It's there you just don't want to admit it. My posts are not love letters...sorry! No you're the brilliant one..just tell us your term for GRF and how Dr. Kwon mangled the physics in the example I posted...we are all here to learn from you. I mean over 2000 posts you must be a friggin' authority on everything golf related and unrelated.

You're also a mind reader.. since you know that when I say I don't disagree I really mean I disagree..Up is Down, supination is really pronation...you're like that pro from Finland...what's his name....oh yeah Tapio..the expert on everything, and never wrong.
[/quote]

Hi Mikah, go back and read the terms of service, and I'm still waiting for you to step it up a notch. Really, exceptionally, almost droll, but all told, boring.
[/quote]


You're reaching, i'm not Mikah. If you bothered to read any of my posts in this thread you will see that I disagreed with Mikah. Oh yeah I forgot in your world that means I agreed with him...lol! Eightiron knows who I am.


Terms of service again, is that your M.O. when someone gets to you...go read the terms of service. Pathetic! This all started because you assume things that are not based in reality like I disagreed with you when I said I agreed, just because you don't like a term that the scientific community uses ..GRF.

Simple lets use your term and then show us how Dr. Kwon mangled the physics in the example I posted.


All bent out of shape over a term...just deal with it everyone else does...well except for you, because you're the authority/watchdog on scientific terms that should be used....LOL!
[/quote]

I think I may have misinterpreted your intent. I think we may agree and I'm just a bit over-reactive.

I'm not an authority or a watchdog, just incredibly annoyed by stupidity (my own included).

Terms and words are a special interest of mine, undergrad degree was linguistics with a minor in number theory.

So, how about you start off with taking a swing at Dr. Kwon's mangling of newton's third lawn and then we see what we can do collectively.

[pick it up]

Northgolf said: "I think I may have misinterpreted your intent. I think we may agree and I'm just a bit over-reactive.

I'm not an authority or a watchdog, just incredibly annoyed by stupidity (my own included).

[color=#ff0000]Terms and words are a special interest of mine, undergrad degree was linguistics[/color] with a minor in number theory.

So, how about you start off with taking a swing at Dr. Kwon's mangling of newton's third[color=#ff0000] lawn [/color]and then we see what we can do collectively."





I'm over it. Speaking of terms and words I never knew Newton had 3 lawns, I heard he had apple trees. Learn something Newton every day!

[northgolf]

[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1416724977' post='10490729']
Northgolf said: "I think I may have misinterpreted your intent. I think we may agree and I'm just a bit over-reactive.

I'm not an authority or a watchdog, just incredibly annoyed by stupidity (my own included).

[color=#FF0000]Terms and words are a special interest of mine, undergrad degree was linguistics[/color] with a minor in number theory.

So, how about you start off with taking a swing at Dr. Kwon's mangling of newton's third[color=#FF0000] lawn [/color]and then we see what we can do collectively."





I'm over it. Speaking of terms and words I never knew Newton had 3 lawns, I heard he had apple trees. Learn something Newton every day!
[/quote]

Great, pick up on a typo. You've got better in you.

Your comment about work and displacement was interesting, but then you went on about exerting force on a wall which does move not resulting any work - since force is defined as mass times acceleration and the wall doesn't move (i.e. no acceleration), why do you think there is any force?

[hoganfan924]

That was me, not "pick it up" who described force. Forces do not require an acceleration or movement to be present. F=MA is true, but not an all encompassing definition of force. If you push on something but don't move it, you are most definitely applying a force to that object, and a force that is easily measured (put a bathroom scale between your hand and that wall for example). There are many types of forces, including nuclear weak and strong, gravitational and electromagnetic.

Here you can read about forces:

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-2/The-Meaning-of-Force

The problem is that you are confusing a mathematical relationship between force, mass and acceleration with the definition of force. It would be no different than me saying that the definition of acceleration is F/M, when in fact, it is the rate of change if velocity.

[pick it up]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1416766720' post='10492197']
[quote name='pick it up' timestamp='1416724977' post='10490729']
Northgolf said: "I think I may have misinterpreted your intent. I think we may agree and I'm just a bit over-reactive.

I'm not an authority or a watchdog, just incredibly annoyed by stupidity (my own included).

[color=#FF0000]Terms and words are a special interest of mine, undergrad degree was linguistics[/color] with a minor in number theory.

So, how about you start off with taking a swing at Dr. Kwon's mangling of newton's third[color=#FF0000] lawn [/color]and then we see what we can do collectively."





I'm over it. Speaking of terms and words I never knew Newton had 3 lawns, I heard he had apple trees. Learn something Newton every day!
[/quote]

Great, pick up on a typo. You've got better in you.

Your comment about work and displacement was interesting, but then you went on about exerting force on a wall which does move not resulting any work - since force is defined as mass times acceleration and the wall doesn't move (i.e. no acceleration), why do you think there is any force?
[/quote]



Thank You very much, it means a lot coming from you! ... but you[color=#ff0000] force[/color] me to tell you not to[color=#ff0000] work[/color] so hard at trying to do this

[northgolf]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1416768647' post='10492315']
That was me, not "pick it up" who described force. Forces do not require an acceleration or movement to be present. F=MA is true, but not an all encompassing definition of force. If you push on something but don't move it, you are most definitely applying a force to that object, and a force that is easily measured (put a bathroom scale between your hand and that wall for example). There are many types of forces, including nuclear weak and strong, gravitational and electromagnetic.

Here you can read about forces:

[url="http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-2/The-Meaning-of-Force"]http://www.physicscl...eaning-of-Force[/url]

The problem is that you are confusing a mathematical relationship between force, mass and acceleration with the definition of acceleration. It would be no different than me saying that the definition of acceleration is F/M, when in fact, it is the rate of change if velocity.
[/quote]

I was asking a question, not stating a position. My sincere apologies for confusing you with Pick it up.

[Golf nerd]

Back to topic.
Have found this video about right arm straightening in the downswing in the SnT section.
Is this going in the right direction?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWFr69bhAf0

[tommy89]

Interested in this thread if there is anything positive to add?

[dairic]

the thread is about trail arm extending in downswing.

yes agree the weight of the arms moving away from the torso in DS increases the MOI and torso decelerates as a result.

 

That does not mean that the trail arm has to lose the bend in the elbow. Trail arm can stay bent (the Babe, Jetter , Moe)

 

Timing the extension of the trail arm creates timing issues EE, OTT, humping , stalling, on and on... misses left and right.

 

So now you completely change your tune and act like you were saying the next segment accelerating slows down the previous the entire time. Your entire argument was that slowing down the previous increased speed in the next. Which I told you was backwards and incorrect.

 

Btw the rear arm does have to straighten and does lose flex in ALL golf swings in the downswing. You actually earlier agreed it straightened but it was CF that did it and the batter had no choice, also wrong. Now you claim the trail arm doesn't lose flex at all. Again you keep moving the goal post and changing your answers acting like you had it right the whole time. Not fooling anyone

 

 

settle...take a prozac

 

 

I havent changed my tune. Your so insecure about your lack of knowledge( a professional instructor?)

MOI increases as weight of arms moves away from our torso. That starts deceleration in our lower body, then torso, then arms, then hands.

 

... NO CHANGE

 

and you still havent explained how the lower body decelerates before the hands decelerate, when YOU SAY,

that the extension of the trail arm causes the hands to decelerate.

 

BTW the trail elbow does not have to straighten, until after impact. The Babe and Ben Hogan proved that. Its obviously impossible for you to open your mind. Try with our eyes.....no? ...ok give up.. go back to your tricep

So do you want to lock that in that hogans right arm is bent the same amount at the top of the swing and impact?

 

 

and how much did it move, anal boy?

 

you guys who have not clue how Hogan did what he did, so you;ve got to invent sh#% so you can live with that fact

 

 

 

 

Btw Hogan's right arm straightened a lot coming down. Not some insignificant amount like you imply. It straightens between 45 and 70* depending on the swing coming down.

 

The way I see it is that it starts to straighten right away. That's part of the whole pull the arrow out of the quiver deally.

 

 

[mikah]

the thread is about trail arm extending in downswing.

yes agree the weight of the arms moving away from the torso in DS increases the MOI and torso decelerates as a result.

 

That does not mean that the trail arm has to lose the bend in the elbow. Trail arm can stay bent (the Babe, Jetter , Moe)

 

Timing the extension of the trail arm creates timing issues EE, OTT, humping , stalling, on and on... misses left and right.

 

So now you completely change your tune and act like you were saying the next segment accelerating slows down the previous the entire time. Your entire argument was that slowing down the previous increased speed in the next. Which I told you was backwards and incorrect.

 

Btw the rear arm does have to straighten and does lose flex in ALL golf swings in the downswing. You actually earlier agreed it straightened but it was CF that did it and the batter had no choice, also wrong. Now you claim the trail arm doesn't lose flex at all. Again you keep moving the goal post and changing your answers acting like you had it right the whole time. Not fooling anyone

 

 

settle...take a prozac

 

 

I havent changed my tune. Your so insecure about your lack of knowledge( a professional instructor?)

MOI increases as weight of arms moves away from our torso. That starts deceleration in our lower body, then torso, then arms, then hands.

 

... NO CHANGE

 

and you still havent explained how the lower body decelerates before the hands decelerate, when YOU SAY,

that the extension of the trail arm causes the hands to decelerate.

 

BTW the trail elbow does not have to straighten, until after impact. The Babe and Ben Hogan proved that. Its obviously impossible for you to open your mind. Try with our eyes.....no? ...ok give up.. go back to your tricep

So do you want to lock that in that hogans right arm is bent the same amount at the top of the swing and impact?

 

 

and how much did it move, anal boy?

 

you guys who have not clue how Hogan did what he did, so you;ve got to invent sh#% so you can live with that fact

 

 

 

 

Btw Hogan's right arm straightened a lot coming down. Not some insignificant amount like you imply. It straightens between 45 and 70* depending on the swing coming down.

 

The way I see it is that it starts to straighten right away. That's part of the whole pull the arrow out of the quiver deally.

 

 

 

yes, start with shoulders first and right arm straightens from the top.

 

do it like Ben Hogan and lower body starts first. .. the vertical drop (Moe Norman)

 

 

at P6 right arm is still bent at 90 degrees.

 

[dairic]

why did you post a front view? makes no sense if you want to measure the angle of the right arm.

well beyond 90 degrees by P6.

[attachment=2544143:P6 right arm.jpg]
[attachment=2544145:p6 right elbow b.jpg]

[iteachgolf]

 

90*?

[iteachgolf]

 

Closer to 55-60 at p5.5.

[mikah]

 

Closer to 55-60 at p5.5.

 

twist the camera postion and Im sure you can distort the angle to be whatever YOU want.

 

More like 80-90 at P6

[iteachgolf]

None of those are even close to 90* and none are even at p6. Some are at p5.5 at best. Put down the bottle. The only one even close to 90* is at p5 not p6. Snead, which is much closer to 90* at p6 which is why he shifted out more from p4 to p5, is still significantly less than 90* at p6. The more you post you not only prove your ignorance and lack of understanding but also prove yourself wrong.

 

 

Here on the righg is just after p6. 6.2 at most

 

 

Here is BEFORE p6 (5.5) on the left

 

 

Still wanna say right arm is bent 90* when shaft is parallel to the ground?

[iteachgolf]

 

90*?

 

Notice you ignore this. Which is BEFORE p6 (5.8). I can post a picture of a shovel again if you wish

[eightiron]

 

Closer to 55-60 at p5.5.

 

twist the camera postion and Im sure you can distort the angle to be whatever YOU want.

 

More like 80-90 at P6

 

I think you nailed it . It's an illusion , hogan has it bent to 80 deg at the top and gets his right shoulder almost on the ground to maintain the angle to impact . Hard to copy though

[Finbarr Saunders]

[url="http://youtu.be/wPQPD1ImWg0"]http://youtu.be/wPQPD1ImWg0[/url]

[iteachgolf]

 

 

P5.6

 

Straightens very hard from here.

[mikah]

 

90*?

 

Notice you ignore this. Which is BEFORE p6 (5.8). I can post a picture of a shovel again if you wish

 

knock yourself out,...pro

[mikah]

[media=]

[/media]

 

 

P5.6

 

Straightens very hard from here.

 

and your calling that 50 degees?

[iteachgolf]

So your saying that arm is bent 90* a few frames AFTER that photo?

always funny to me how people will dig themselves into a hole and make themselves look very stupid rather than simply saying "I was wrong"

[eightiron]

[media=]

[/media]

 

 

P5.6

 

Straightens very hard from here.

 

and your calling that 50 degees?

 

I think Mikah is right again , it's the master move . You can buy 2 special magnets which attach and attract the right hand to the right shoulder and practice hitting balls with the right elbow . I've hit a few drives over 300 yards just hitting the ball with the right elbow itself

[iteachgolf]

[media=]

[/media]

 

 

P5.6

 

Straightens very hard from here.

 

and your calling that 50 degees?

 

That's not Hogan and that's not p6. It's BEFORE p6.

 

Btw it's 57* bent or 123*

[iteachgolf]

 

 

 

 

So it's bent 57* just prior to p6 and 48* just after p6. I'd say it's pretty darn close to 50*

 

 

Again keep proving how ignorant and stubborn you are.