Some ideas about the trail arm straightening

[mikah]

And? What does that have to do with anything.

 

Ben Hogan moved his upper body. ie two arms, shoulders together from the top of BS to P5.

That was the Slot he wrote about in 5L.

 

That is what Ben Hogan moving his upper body (two arms and shoulders) as one unit from top of BS to P5 is about.

 

BTW, "as a unit" means relative distances remain the same.

 

 

(have you even watched and /or listened to Ben Hogans 'training' video?...

"letting your arms and hands FOLLOW")

 

He explains it very clearly, "what starts first from the top of the swing"".

 

one your students? At P5, left elbow is already lower than right elbow....

 

Thats the difference between what Hogan did and right arm straightening from the top of BS.

 

BTW, not making a judgment, just saying right arm straightening from the top of BS

is not what Ben Hogan did, not even close.

 

Show me a student of mine for any length of time with right elbow above the left. Find me one. JCs right elbow absolutely is not above his left at p5. You do realize I have that swing in 3D right?

 

I showed pictures that prove his hands are significantly further from his shoulder at p5 than they were at p4. You literally quoted them and prove yourself wrong. Hogan also felt his hips were 90* open at impact. I don't care what he thought he did. I care what he did.

 

I found that video of your student on a random search. You obviously have 1000's. Please post one that shows your student with right elbow below left elbow at p6.... just one.

 

here is Ben Hogan at P6

 

 

BTW, pathetic when you have to accuse Ben Hogan of not knowing what he is talking about in order to justify your personal opinion of what he "really" did.

[iteachgolf]

And? What does that have to do with anything.

 

Ben Hogan moved his upper body. ie two arms, shoulders together from the top of BS to P5.

That was the Slot he wrote about in 5L.

 

That is what Ben Hogan moving his upper body (two arms and shoulders) as one unit from top of BS to P5 is about.

 

BTW, "as a unit" means relative distances remain the same.

 

You can't be this blind. His right arm has straightened at a minimum 45* and hands are easily 3x as far from right shoulder as they were at the top of the swing.

[iteachgolf]

And? What does that have to do with anything.

 

Ben Hogan moved his upper body. ie two arms, shoulders together from the top of BS to P5.

That was the Slot he wrote about in 5L.

 

That is what Ben Hogan moving his upper body (two arms and shoulders) as one unit from top of BS to P5 is about.

 

BTW, "as a unit" means relative distances remain the same.

 

 

(have you even watched and /or listened to Ben Hogans 'training' video?...

"letting your arms and hands FOLLOW")

 

He explains it very clearly, "what starts first from the top of the swing"".

 

one your students? At P5, left elbow is already lower than right elbow....

 

Thats the difference between what Hogan did and right arm straightening from the top of BS.

 

BTW, not making a judgment, just saying right arm straightening from the top of BS

is not what Ben Hogan did, not even close.

 

Show me a student of mine for any length of time with right elbow above the left. Find me one. JCs right elbow absolutely is not above his left at p5. You do realize I have that swing in 3D right?

 

I showed pictures that prove his hands are significantly further from his shoulder at p5 than they were at p4. You literally quoted them and prove yourself wrong. Hogan also felt his hips were 90* open at impact. I don't care what he thought he did. I care what he did.

 

I found that video of your student on a random search. You obviously have 1000's. Please post one that shows your student with right elbow below left elbow at p6.... just one.

 

here is Ben Hogan at P6

 

 

BTW, pathetic when you have to accuse Ben Hogan of not knowing what he is talking about in order to justify your personal opinion of what he "really" did.

 

Not opinion. And facts. I know you hate those. But hogan was not 90* open at impact nor even close to that. Absolutely every single one of my students have right elbow below left at p6. They have right elbow below left at impact too.

 

That student you "found" has right elbow well below the left. At p5. And even more so at p6. Clear as day in that video

[iteachgolf]

 

 

Heres p6 in both 2d and 3D from the video you chose. You may need to get a new contact/glasses prescription

[mikah]

And? What does that have to do with anything.

 

Ben Hogan moved his upper body. ie two arms, shoulders together from the top of BS to P5.

That was the Slot he wrote about in 5L.

 

That is what Ben Hogan moving his upper body (two arms and shoulders) as one unit from top of BS to P5 is about.

 

BTW, "as a unit" means relative distances remain the same.

 

You can't be this blind. His right arm has straightened at a minimum 45* and hands are easily 3x as far from right shoulder as they were at the top of the swing.

 

you still havent watched Ben Hogan's 'training video' ?

 

what moves first from the top? arms and hands follow?

'

your in denial. watch the video. take a straight edge to the elbows... Hogan, Sergio, your student.

 

Sergio at P6. Which elbow is lower?

[mikah]

 

 

Heres p6 in both 2d and 3D from the video you chose. You may need to get a new contact/glasses prescription

 

you may want to find a camera angle that is level with horizon, not looking down....nice try

 

comparable angle showing Ben Hogan in his Slot:

 

[iteachgolf]

And? What does that have to do with anything.

 

Ben Hogan moved his upper body. ie two arms, shoulders together from the top of BS to P5.

That was the Slot he wrote about in 5L.

 

That is what Ben Hogan moving his upper body (two arms and shoulders) as one unit from top of BS to P5 is about.

 

BTW, "as a unit" means relative distances remain the same.

 

You can't be this blind. His right arm has straightened at a minimum 45* and hands are easily 3x as far from right shoulder as they were at the top of the swing.

 

you still havent watched Ben Hogan's 'training video' ?

 

what moves first from the top? arms and hands follow?

'

your in denial. watch the video. take a straight edge to the elbows... Hogan, Sergio, your student.

 

Sergio at P6. Which elbow is lower?

 

Again look at my student. Which one of his elbows is lower? And it's not even close. Hogans hands move away from his shoulder. At p5.5 in the photo YOU posted his hands are literally THREE TIMES as far from his right shoulder and right arm has already straightened 45*. Sergio's straightened even faster.

[iteachgolf]

 

 

Heres p6 in both 2d and 3D from the video you chose. You may need to get a new contact/glasses prescription

 

you may want to find a camera angle that is level with horizon, not looking down....nice try

 

 

 

This is 3D. Camera angle isn't showing anything 3D isn't.

[iteachgolf]

 

So hands don't move away from the right shoulder at all?

[MK7Golf21]

years ago I tried doing pretty much all pivot, leaving hands behind and I remember at the end of day my lower back would hurt. When I started using my arms more with the pivot it relieved my lower back. imo you dont want to slow anything down or leave it behind. I recall Dan has said to speed up what is behind, not slow anything down, I think thats appropriate.

[iteachgolf]

 

Here's a different swing on a different day. Same player. Same result.

[mikah]

 

So hands don't move away from the right shoulder at all?

 

 

What did I write?

 

"Ben Hogan didnt straighten his right arm from the top of his BS to P5."

 

and youve twisted that to:

 

"So hands don't move away from the right shoulder at all?"

 

carry on...there are more of your fanboys waiting for more words of 'wisdom'.

[mikah]

years ago I tried doing pretty much all pivot, leaving hands behind and I remember at the end of day my lower back would hurt. When I started using my arms more with the pivot it relieved my lower back. imo you dont want to slow anything down or leave it behind. I recall Dan has said to speed up what is behind, not slow anything down, I think thats appropriate.

 

Red,

What do you consider pivot?

 

If you turn left shoulder down, right shoulder up(right hand swinger), you know the instruction...90 deg 'shoulder' turn

your upper spine will bend and right hip will slide to the right.

 

From that position youll either get stuck or injure your back.

 

 

Rick McCord explains what we all know(or should), that the body supports the intention of the hands.... all subconsciously.

no need to consciously, 'speed up' whats behind. Thats ludicrous, not how humans control movement.

 

 

[oikos1]

Cue the organ:

 

Duh-duh-duh-duh-duhhhhhhhhhhhh...

[Ghost of Snead]

years ago I tried doing pretty much all pivot, leaving hands behind and I remember at the end of day my lower back would hurt. When I started using my arms more with the pivot it relieved my lower back. imo you dont want to slow anything down or leave it behind. I recall Dan has said to speed up what is behind, not slow anything down, I think thats appropriate.

 

Red,

What do you consider pivot?

 

If you turn left shoulder down, right shoulder up(right hand swinger), you know the instruction...90 deg 'shoulder' turn

your upper spine will bend and right hip will slide to the right.

 

From that position youll either get stuck or injure your back.

 

 

Rick McCord explains what we all know(or should), that the body supports the intention of the hands.... all subconsciously.

no need to consciously, 'speed up' whats behind. Thats ludicrous, not how humans control movement.

 

 

 

Why don't you answer DC's question about which elbow is lower on his student, J.C. Horne ? Cat got your tongue ?

[mikah]

years ago I tried doing pretty much all pivot, leaving hands behind and I remember at the end of day my lower back would hurt. When I started using my arms more with the pivot it relieved my lower back. imo you dont want to slow anything down or leave it behind. I recall Dan has said to speed up what is behind, not slow anything down, I think thats appropriate.

 

Red,

What do you consider pivot?

 

If you turn left shoulder down, right shoulder up(right hand swinger), you know the instruction...90 deg 'shoulder' turn

your upper spine will bend and right hip will slide to the right.

 

From that position youll either get stuck or injure your back.

 

 

Rick McCord explains what we all know(or should), that the body supports the intention of the hands.... all subconsciously.

no need to consciously, 'speed up' whats behind. Thats ludicrous, not how humans control movement.

 

 

 

Why don't you answer DC's question about which elbow is lower on his student, J.C. Horne ? Cat got your tongue ?

 

fanboy... be a peach and fetch DC a new towel...

[johnrobison]

years ago I tried doing pretty much all pivot, leaving hands behind and I remember at the end of day my lower back would hurt. When I started using my arms more with the pivot it relieved my lower back. imo you dont want to slow anything down or leave it behind. I recall Dan has said to speed up what is behind, not slow anything down, I think thats appropriate.

 

Red,

What do you consider pivot?

 

If you turn left shoulder down, right shoulder up(right hand swinger), you know the instruction...90 deg 'shoulder' turn

your upper spine will bend and right hip will slide to the right.

 

From that position youll either get stuck or injure your back.

 

 

Rick McCord explains what we all know(or should), that the body supports the intention of the hands.... all subconsciously.

no need to consciously, 'speed up' whats behind. Thats ludicrous, not how humans control movement.

 

 

 

Why don't you answer DC's question about which elbow is lower on his student, J.C. Horne ? Cat got your tongue ?

 

fanboy... be a peach and fetch DC a new towel...

Remember that one time when Mikah was presented with irrefutable evidence that he was wrong, so he acknowledged his misunderstanding? I don't.

[Ghost of Snead]

years ago I tried doing pretty much all pivot, leaving hands behind and I remember at the end of day my lower back would hurt. When I started using my arms more with the pivot it relieved my lower back. imo you dont want to slow anything down or leave it behind. I recall Dan has said to speed up what is behind, not slow anything down, I think thats appropriate.

 

Red,

What do you consider pivot?

 

If you turn left shoulder down, right shoulder up(right hand swinger), you know the instruction...90 deg 'shoulder' turn

your upper spine will bend and right hip will slide to the right.

 

From that position youll either get stuck or injure your back.

 

 

Rick McCord explains what we all know(or should), that the body supports the intention of the hands.... all subconsciously.

no need to consciously, 'speed up' whats behind. Thats ludicrous, not how humans control movement.

 

 

 

Why don't you answer DC's question about which elbow is lower on his student, J.C. Horne ? Cat got your tongue ?

 

fanboy... be a peach and fetch DC a new towel...

 

Sure, can I borrow one of the towels you fetch for Gerry Hogan ? Maybe you and Coat Jones can get together and come up with something that might remotely

challenge Iteach's knowledge of the golf swing ...

 

In the meantime, answer the question about which elbow is lower on J.C. Horne ... I expect silence as usual.

[slantsflood]

I read this whole thread......i just quit golf

[SunkTheBirdie]

I have a lot of p6 images in this thread http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/787449-studying-morad-p6-shaft-parallel-to-the-ground-images-and-more/

 

Of the five I looked at the right elbow was lower 5/5.

 

[Golfrnut]

Just posting to bookmark the thread as I really liked the OP's question before it got all crazy in this one. :)

 

I struggle with too much depth and not enough width, overbent trail elbow, arms pinned on the downswing, etc. After eading the thread, I notice the right elbow doing the same thing the OP describes, staying bent and following the hip. Even on shorter swings, arms are slow to move. I've tried Monte's cast drill, which if I understand it correctly addresses the same thing just in a different way. Perhaps I should try to feel like the right elbow is straightening as opposed to throwing the wrist angles away? Trail elbow straightening would speed the arms up and work the left arm off the chest?

[Petunia Sprinkle]

It's saying the same thing. Nobody is just a swing or hitter. Everyone use both throughout the swing. I know this complicated and tough for you to understand.

 

That makes some sense. Looking back on my own golf history, things would get ugly whenever I'd get too far out on one end of the spectrum, or the other. My swing tends to look exactly the same, though, regardless of which end of the spectrum I'm leaning toward, or if I have a nice balance going for however fleeting a moment that may be. I've watched a few videos of various people trying to illustrate the distinction between hitting and swinging, and honestly, both look the same in them, as well. I can certainly feel a difference between me hitting mostly and me swinging mostly despite their similarities in appearance (they hurt different parts of my body when they go wrongly, too). So, what signs would a teacher look for in a student who is getting too caught up in one direction, or the other?

[Klat5259]

On 2/13/2016 at 2:30 PM, mikah said:

 

you may want to find a camera angle that is level with horizon, not looking down....nice try

 

comparable angle showing Ben Hogan in his Slot:

 

 

So this didn’t age well… almost all instruction nowadays is promoting a “cast” from the top. Either by straightening the right arm, throw to 8 o’clock, etc… nobody just turns and let’s centrifugal force pull the arms. That how everyone gets stuck. 

[slalomdude]

On 6/13/2022 at 11:33 AM, Klat5259 said:

So this didn’t age well… almost all instruction nowadays is promoting a “cast” from the top. Either by straightening the right arm, throw to 8 o’clock, etc… nobody just turns and let’s centrifugal force pull the arms. That how everyone gets stuck. 

Especially this week after the AMG video dropped 😉

[2saderbrown]

This thread is old but maybe my post will help someone. I think this forum sums of the feel vs. real dichotomy and also illustrates why viewing a dynamic golf swing and try to replicate positions can be problematic. For a long time I struggled with losing leg, casting, early extension etc because I tried to replicate positions. I tried to hold wrist angles, keep the trail elbow bent etc with horrible results. Instead, I now, from the top of my backswing “feel like” I am throwing the club behind me - literally releasing all of the angles created from my elbow, wrists etc before I rotate. Once the club has been thrown behind me, I am then able to rotate as hard as I want through the shot. If you were to view a slow motion video of my swing at impact, you would see the coveted positions (head behind ball, shaft lean, etc etc) and have no idea that I am literally trying to get rid of all of the angles in the opposite direction of the golf ball. I am not here to say that this feeling works for everyone. I am trying to say that a lot of the positions that people are searching for are the result of  another action - in my case, lag and shaft lean is created as I try to get rid of the lag that I created as soon as possible - the harder I throw the angles away, the more angles I have at impact. 
 

My one piece of advice is to try to find a feeling or intent that creates the desired outcome / position. Chasing the position itself in my experience has only caused me issues. 
 

also, I am not here to say that Anyone else is wrong or right, just wanted to provide my own amateur experience / perspective 

[MonteScheinblum]

There are about 5-10 people (e.g. mikah) who have little to no understanding of how a golf swing actually works.  They pontificate non stop in the face of all contrary evidence with their monomaniacal views and discount and berate anyone with a different idea, no matter how much evidence or experience is behind it.   They eventually get banned and come back under a new name again and again.  Mikah had about 8-10 iterations.  I suspect he may still be here, but I’m not 100 % sure.  Some of the usual suspects are still here in their 5-10th iteration and they derail every good discussion.  
 

Dan is a smart guy and a great instructor.  He and I have disagreed on occasion and we are both equally steadfast in our position without being a jackass to each other.  
 

Like every other situation in our world, a good thing for many is ruined by the selfish acts of a few.

 

 

[Oldnavycdr]

Amen.