Apex II reshaft advice

[agolfman]

So I recently did some launch monitor testing of my current gamers (Bridgestone J40s) against my older Apex IIs and PCs.

 

It's here

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1222616-flightscope-shoutout-gamer-vs-hogans/

 

Really like the idea of swapping the Apex shafts out for Aerotechs, but thought I'd ask this group before taking the plunge...of course that also got me thinking about re-chroming and regrooving, because, well, that's what we do, right....?

 

Overall, the condition is about a "7" with a couple heads trending slightly lowee. Obviously, the grips are awful at this point, so that's a definite in any event.

 

So, do I go all in and modernize, or are there downsides to altering these great irons?

[Fellaheen51]

The expense of re-chroming and refurbing a set of heads may far exceed what you could buy a very nice set for. Current example of a set that is on the high end of the price scale (interested to see if they sell at that price):

[url="http://www.ebay.com/itm/231649335720?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT"]http://www.ebay.com/...=STRK:MEBIDX:IT[/url]

May want to brief thru the sold listings to get an idea of current FMV for Apex II's and PC's seem to go for significantly less. Suggesting that finding a VGC to EX condition set may be a whole lot cheaper compared to the prices I've seen on head refurbishment.

If you're DIY, Apex II's and PC's have pinned hosels adding an extra degree of "futzing" to a reshaft. About to learn how much latter this year when I do a II reshaft.

[birly-shirly]

This is just my personal opinion, but I think everything depends on why you want to fit the Aerotechs.

If you need the shock absorption of a graphite shaft, or you just prefer the feel over the steel shafts currently in your irons, and you just want to fit them to your favourite head, then I don't see how the flightscope results based on steel shafts and unknown lofts really helps you. But that isn't a reason not to stick new shafts into whatever heads you like the best. And I have to say I'm a big fan of Apex IIs. Likewise, if you don't think the Apex 4 is a great fit for you after the passage of time, then that's a good reason to swap them out.

I'm still not sure though how flightscope data helps you choose though. I understand how it might help max out a driver or fairway wood, but I'm not sure how that applies to a set of irons. Surely what you're looking for there is a set that provides consistent gaps. I don't see how changing shafts, rather than tweaking lofts, is going to make much difference there unless you think that lighter shafts will make long irons more viable for you.

I'm biased towards either set of Hogans. I think I'd pick a set and fit fresh grips. I'd blow them on without adhesive tape in case I change my mind. I'd have them checked for loft and lie, and maybe even set them up with even 4* gaps rather than the stock Hogan specs. And then I'd use your flightscope to see whether the yardage gaps and trajectories are consistent across the set.

I have a basic prejudice that steel shafts are more consistent than graphite - but some people have found that those early, lightweight Apex shafts may have been less consistent than heavier shafts of the day. So, I'd be looking to eliminate loft and lie issues and then see whether the set performs well as a set. If you find issues, then that's when I'd think about whether a re-shaft is going to help - but otherwise I'd be tempted to play them as they are.

[agolfman]

Really good thoughts and advice..thank you for taking the time and helping!

I had the idea of using Flightscope to see how in the ballpark the irons would perform, while seeing how the feel varied between old and new. I liked what I saw, basically, hence the ongoing thinking about what to do with them I'm planning on doing some outdoor hitting with them this weekend, so that should tell me more.

As for the Aerotech's, I do like the reduced fatigue and impact they bring, but most of all, I'm sold on their performance. I came from KBS Tours in a set of forged Vega's and the J40's with Aerotechs blow them away. Hard to really describe, but to folks on this forum, I'd say going from the KBS to Aerotech's was a lot like what you probably feel with an average iron and a great blade...hard to really describe, but an order of magnitude improvement in feel.

That's kind of where I am, wondering in if the combination will be so appealing, I'd be blown away...I think that might be the case here.

I also like the idea of just swapping the grip and starting from there. I'm totally DIY and do all my own club work, so the shaft swap is pretty straightforward.

Thank you for the advice!

[super20dan]

i would not do it. some one reshafted my set of apex 2 ,s with dynamic gold . these are the worse preforming hogans i have ever hit. the hogan apex shaft back then was part of the winning hogan formula. why mess up a good thing

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='super20dan' timestamp='1440117061' post='12179798']
i would not do it. some one reshafted my set of apex 2 ,s with dynamic gold . these are the worse preforming hogans i have ever hit. the hogan apex shaft back then was part of the winning hogan formula. why mess up a good thing
[/quote]


I can't agree with this (no offense intended, dan).

The Apex shaft doesn't work as well for those who already hit a high ball. Not a good fit for me, and I know a couple other individual that tried them on an extended basis, with little success.

Ironically, the longest hitter I've known liked the Apex shaft. But he was a low trajectory player.

So my take for the OP would be, if needed, reshaft with something that suits your swing.

[oldschoolrocker]

I was never a fan of Hogan irons and always wondered why. Loved the look, but the ball flight just wasn't right. Years ago I found myself at College Station doing a couple of weeks research using their wave generating facility. Well, time on my hands, so off to a local pawn shop. Found some 88 Redlines, picked them up and eventually cut the shafts down for my youngest son. When he outgrew them I reshafted a few of them to use as a "minimalist road set" for myself. Liked them much better with the S300s than the Apex shaft.

[birly-shirly]

Much as I like it, I don't suppose the Apex shaft is always going to be the best shaft for any player - but if you're reshafting with DG you do need to anticipate that the iron heads will have been specced heavy to compensate for the lighter stock shaft.

I always thought that if I was going to play with DG going into apex heads then I might be building to slightly shorter lengths.

[Fellaheen51]

My plan is to go down this road in the off season with a recently acquired EUC set of Apex II (White Cameos) 2 - PW. Currently they are shafted (except for the 7 iron which is a undefined TT) with Apex Pro 4. These are way to much shaft for me these days in weight and flex. I've become a fan of light(er) weight steel, easier to swing and less punishing on the arms and wrists with the inevitable mis-hits. Will be performing a full "blueprint" of these to something in the D0 - D4 SW range and to my preferred club length without using extensions (if possible). My 6 iron length is 38.5" and could go -1/2" if necessary.

I've used this thread ([url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/188772-hogan-apex-4-shafts-alternatives/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...s-alternatives/[/url]) as something of a reference point. However, some of the information has gotten confusing.

I have been informed by another esteemed member here that the Apex Pro's are the heavier weight version of the regular Apex. By way of comparison, regular DG to DGSL (23 gram difference). The shaft that is reputed to be the most like std. Apex 4 is the Dynalite series. I'm a high ball hitter, and would like to bring the trajectory down some. Had a set of SE irons with Dynalites, they really sky'ed the ball, replaced them with something else. That is why I'm thinking DGSL would be a better choice.

B-S made mention of "spec'd heavy" for the head weights. Confused by this. Does this mean as a general design parameter? Or would a head shafted with Apex Pro be a different weight than one with Std. Apex? Logic would indicate that all head weights would be the same to reduce manufacturing complexities. I suppose the only way to know for sure would be to weigh heads that had been shafted with both.

Adding to this, have a perfectly fine set of Precision Rifle 5.5 (3 - PW) that were probably Cally pulls due to the angled tips and rubber o-rings. Rifles were one of my favorite shafts 15+ years ago. But they were not what I would call lightweight. These could be an option as well. Especially so since I have them on hand and have zero investment in them. Would have to calculate what impact the bore-thru would have on the shaft flex. At the minimum, a small "chop" on the tip end to remove the angle would be required. And extensions, not that big of deal as that is generally SOP with classic clubs. Being a thrifty Classic Wrx'er, this is probably the prudent way to go. Just that I have this feeling I'm not going to be satisfied with the results (shaft weight).

And.....if this isn't complicated enough, want to do the 8 iron shaft as wedge shaft trick in a Special SI that would be paired with this set. All this before attempting SW calculations. No, I do not want to have these adorned with lead tape to tweak the SW, wrecks the aesthetics of the clubs IMHO.

Things use to not be this complicated. Buy shafts, tip trim, glue them in, play them. Ignorance was bliss. TIA as always for any comments, suggestions, etc.

Edit Note: This kind of reads like a "help me pick a shaft for my irons" thread from <. Didn't really mean to do that. Just that I've become something of a Hogan fan these days and that they deserve having some degree of "deep contemplation" on such matters.

[oldschoolrocker]

Doug,
The thing that works for me to get my ball flight down is to top the shaft a quarter inch. mot a club setup guru by any means, but it works for me with DG shafts.

[birly-shirly]

Fella - yes, I meant that clubheads being built up with Apex shafts would need to be heavier than an equivalent length, equivalent SW club fitted with a Dynamic Gold shaft.

I don't know what Hogan did when building with the heavier Pro shaft - whether they used the std weight head and got a heavier swingweight, or if they used lighter heads. My Apex IIs with an Apex 4 shaft are about D3.

If you have a gram-accurate scale and a measuring tape, you can measure how your current irons are set up using this tool - [url="http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWT.HTM"]http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWT.HTM[/url]

I would go one at a time with those Rifles. I'm happy hitting Apex 4s and DG S, but I have a 3 wood with an FCM 5.5 and I could not get it off the ground. I'm sure they're good shafts and I keep meaning to go back and give that Ram another chance, but honestly, I hit it so much worse than the Dynamic S alternatives that I pretty much gave up on it there and then. But horses for courses and all that. Also, some info on Callaway iron tip/hosel configurations here - [url="http://blog.hirekogolf.com/2009/08/how-to-re-shaft-callaway-irons/"]http://blog.hirekogolf.com/2009/08/how-to-re-shaft-callaway-irons/[/url]. Have you checked that those Rifles will fit a tapered hosel?

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1440246299' post='12188168']
Fella - yes, I meant that [b]clubheads being built up with Apex shafts would need to be heavier than an equivalent length[/b], equivalent SW club fitted with a Dynamic Gold shaft.
[/quote]

I always assumed that that was the reason that the Apex shafted irons were built slightly longer -- to make up for the swingweight difference.

From what I've seen and measured, the Hogan iron heads got progressively lighter over time. The 1957 Precisions were about 8-10 grams heavier than my 1967 PC7's, which were 5-6 grams heavier than the 1988 Edges that I disassembled. But, I'm sure that followed an industry trend -- as club lengths got longer and shafts lighter, heads had to get lighter to keep from producing crazy high swingweights.

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1440236902' post='12187850']
My plan is to go down this road in the off season with a recently acquired EUC set of Apex II (White Cameos) 2 - PW. Currently they are shafted (except for the 7 iron which is a undefined TT) with Apex Pro 4. These are way to much shaft for me these days in weight and flex. I've become a fan of light(er) weight steel, easier to swing and less punishing on the arms and wrists with the inevitable mis-hits. Will be performing a full "blueprint" of these to something in the D0 - D4 SW range and to my preferred club length without using extensions (if possible). My 6 iron length is 38.5" and could go -1/2" if necessary.

I've used this thread ([url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/188772-hogan-apex-4-shafts-alternatives/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...s-alternatives/[/url]) as something of a reference point. However, some of the information has gotten confusing.

I have been informed by another esteemed member here that the Apex Pro's are the heavier weight version of the regular Apex. By way of comparison, regular DG to DGSL (23 gram difference). The shaft that is reputed to be the most like std. Apex 4 is the Dynalite series. I'm a high ball hitter, and would like to bring the trajectory down some. Had a set of SE irons with Dynalites, they really sky'ed the ball, replaced them with something else. That is why I'm thinking DGSL would be a better choice.

B-S made mention of "spec'd heavy" for the head weights. Confused by this. Does this mean as a general design parameter? Or would a head shafted with Apex Pro be a different weight than one with Std. Apex? Logic would indicate that all head weights would be the same to reduce manufacturing complexities. I suppose the only way to know for sure would be to weigh heads that had been shafted with both.

Adding to this, have a perfectly fine set of Precision Rifle 5.5 (3 - PW) that were probably Cally pulls due to the angled tips and rubber o-rings. Rifles were one of my favorite shafts 15+ years ago. But they were not what I would call lightweight. These could be an option as well. Especially so since I have them on hand and have zero investment in them. Would have to calculate what impact the bore-thru would have on the shaft flex. At the minimum, a small "chop" on the tip end to remove the angle would be required. And extensions, not that big of deal as that is generally SOP with classic clubs. Being a thrifty Classic Wrx'er, this is probably the prudent way to go. Just that I have this feeling I'm not going to be satisfied with the results (shaft weight).

And.....if this isn't complicated enough, want to do the 8 iron shaft as wedge shaft trick in a Special SI that would be paired with this set. All this before attempting SW calculations. No, I do not want to have these adorned with lead tape to tweak the SW, wrecks the aesthetics of the clubs IMHO.

Things use to not be this complicated. Buy shafts, tip trim, glue them in, play them. Ignorance was bliss. TIA as always for any comments, suggestions, etc.

Edit Note: This kind of reads like a "help me pick a shaft for my irons" thread from <. Didn't really mean to do that. Just that I've become something of a Hogan fan these days and that they deserve having some degree of "deep contemplation" on such matters.
[/quote]

The DGSL does sound like what you're looking for. I was also going to add that [url="http://www.hirekogolf.com/golf-components/outlet/golf-shafts/apollo-cws-0-355-taper-tip-steel-iron-golf-shafts.html"]these would fit the bill[/url], and they're on closeout, but it does not look like they have the full set available in R flex.

I would think that if you're building a 6 iron to 38.5" you'll feel plenty of headweight with those Apex II irons. As for lead tape, I tend to agree, I don't like the look of them if I can avoid it. I usually use tip weights instead. If you go this route, remember to buy the ones for .335 steel wood shafts, as the ones for iron shafts are intended for .370 parallel shafts and usually don't fit tapered .355 iron shafts.

[Fellaheen51]

I've decided to take a different tack with the Apex II's as I begin the process of disassembly (Pins are a PITA). Would like to reshaft with Apex's. Restore them back to original or as near as possible. So the question I have is.....were there variations in the Apex shafts over the years? Would Apex's from Spaulding era Apex Plus be different than from '87 vintage Radials (or Directors of the same vintage)?

Using the above example, Radials can be found rather inexpensively as a set of donor clubs. Cheaper than a set of pulls in some instances. And I still have the heads when all is said and done. Somewhat intrigued with building up a Radial 3i and 4i as a "hybridy" type of long iron as an experiment. However, don't want to go thru the acquisition process only to discover that the shafts were somehow significantly different. Lots of chatter online about differences between pre/post Ft. Worth heads, so that got me curious about the shafts.

I've been attempting to research this this morning. But my head is beginning to spin trying to find definitive information. So easier just to post here, for the Hoganistas in the group. If this was posted elsewhere, sorry, I couldn't find it. As always, TIA.

[pdgolferman]

This was an earlier post that referenced apex 4 shafts. I always wondered if Slazenger branded shafts are any different to AMF shafts for instance and never really found out. The label thing mentioned is interesting though.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/517289-apex-4-shaft-comparison/page__fromsearch__1

[kaaayelll]

In the spirit of refinishing Apex II...

[attachment=3051000:image.jpeg]

[spezza11]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1448960390' post='12666242']
I've decided to take a different tack with the Apex II's as I begin the process of disassembly (Pins are a PITA). Would like to reshaft with Apex's. Restore them back to original or as near as possible. So the question I have is.....were there variations in the Apex shafts over the years? Would Apex's from Spaulding era Apex Plus be different than from '87 vintage Radials (or Directors of the same vintage)?

Using the above example, Radials can be found rather inexpensively as a set of donor clubs. Cheaper than a set of pulls in some instances. And I still have the heads when all is said and done. Somewhat intrigued with building up a Radial 3i and 4i as a "hybridy" type of long iron as an experiment. However, don't want to go thru the acquisition process only to discover that the shafts were somehow significantly different. Lots of chatter online about differences between pre/post Ft. Worth heads, so that got me curious about the shafts.

I've been attempting to research this this morning. But my head is beginning to spin trying to find definitive information. So easier just to post here, for the Hoganistas in the group. If this was posted elsewhere, sorry, I couldn't find it. As always, TIA.
[/quote]

will be cool to see once you have finished.

A note on the PINS issue. I just recently worked my way thru it this past spring. I had a set of 1969 Hogan Bounce soles. They had all original shafts in them apex. I intended to only re-grip and use but the shafts just had no life left in them. So off I went......
I had a set of DG S300 that were already pulled from a set lying around about 3 years old. I started by trying to heat up and punch thru the pin but they just wouldn't go so knowing that the shafts were basically useless to me all i did was cut off the shaft about 2-3 inches from the hosel so I had enough to easily pull after i got the pin out. I then drilled down into the hosel with to cut thru the pin then easily a quick tap on both sides and the pins came out. then just take out the remaining piece of shaft as always.

[Fellaheen51]

Thx PD and Speez. I've about had it with trying to extract the pins and saving the shafts. They're Hogan Apex Pros that I thought may have some residual usefulness. But maybe time to chop and drill and not worry about it. Even torching them didn't get the pins to budge much with a 1/8" punch. Plus, risking damage to the heads that are in great shape.

The shaft info you provided PD was interesting. I was aware that TT Dynalites was the shaft often cited as being comparable to the Apex. If not one in the same. But there has been several incarnations of Dynalites over the years, would have thought that may have been the case with Apex's as well. And with the hassle of pin removal, a donor set may be a less than ideal strategy.

[pdgolferman]

I remove pins with a spring loaded centre punch - having buffed the point / tip off first and punching from the face-side of the club towards the rear.