Confessions 12 --- Exploding Heads

[mdgboxx]

Forgot to share this pic!! LOL my friend made this for me. I've long been known as the Cookie Monster, I have an unbelievable gift(?) to be able to eat LARGE quantities of cookies in a single sitting :)

 

 

He's gonna bring me luck, and ease the tension under tournament conditions, can't wait to go to battle with him!

 

 

 

 

Haha!

 

He has one eye looking down at the ball, and the other aimed at the middle of the fairway...So you don't have to! :cheesy:

[Matt J]

That cookie monster headcover is awesome!

 

If we send pics we're not in 'em. Gear only. You don't want to see me naked. Especially right now.

[DeNinny]

Bromancing the Phone, starring Matt J Douglas, Palauan Turner, and DeNinny DeVito.

[Matt J]

I went out yesterday and birdied one, then fell to pieces. I don't think my body is physically ready to be back playing. Unfortunately it might take awhile to get there. I just realized yesterday that our "members only" side of the range (big range so the down range side 400 yards from the ball machine has a practice area and "members' tees" ) is still open to hit off grass. I've been tinkering bad, boys. I've got so many things going on, that I'm having a hard time hitting the center of the face. Funny enough on the course, I'm starting to hit these great shots when it all comes together to real skunks. It's not a bad sign, but it's frustrating. It has been like that every time I change anything.

 

So, I was walking off the green the other day and thinking about the whole concept of "tinkering." I think everyone piles on about guys making "swing changes." Realistically we're always making small adaptations to our move. It's when it's going wrong and someone makes the excuse of a "swing change" that people are snarky. "I don't think about my swing, I just play." Blah, blah ,blah.

 

If we all hit bad shots, which we mostly admit. You're telling me that every guy on the line at a pro event who mishits a ball doesn't feel it through his hands look up and see the flight and instantly think "I did this....." And the acknowledgement is to NOT do it again. That's the definition of "change."

 

I've realized that I need an instructor that points out what he thinks we need to accomplish and then lets me try some things to accomplish it i.e. steepen the backswing plane. I'm okay with that concept, but I can't necessarily accomplish it the same way as everyone else. I know that the steeper the backswing plane the higher of a tendency I have to return to the sway (lateral hip movement) and have a more difficult time shallowing the club in transition. So I'm definitely going for the right temperature of porridge "just right" as Goldilocks would say.

[Matt J]

FTR, the putting has come around nicely. I was definitely not releasing the head and was dragging the handle through the putt leaving them pushed to my left as a lefty. I could aim for it by fudging putts a little right, but that's just dumb. I can't figure out how much right to lineup to account for the push and then consistently try and push it the right amount.

 

At first I could only perform a very rushed release and distance control was horrible. I left one dead in the heart yesterday after a nice slow release right down the target line, so I know I'm getting back to my old distance control ;) But, nine holes without a three putt and a normal amount of 1 putts meaning making everything you should and then a few you could miss.

[DeNinny]

I went out yesterday and birdied one, then fell to pieces. I don't think my body is physically ready to be back playing. Unfortunately it might take awhile to get there. I just realized yesterday that our "members only" side of the range (big range so the down range side 400 yards from the ball machine has a practice area and "members' tees" ) is still open to hit off grass. I've been tinkering bad, boys. I've got so many things going on, that I'm having a hard time hitting the center of the face. Funny enough on the course, I'm starting to hit these great shots when it all comes together to real skunks. It's not a bad sign, but it's frustrating. It has been like that every time I change anything.

 

So, I was walking off the green the other day and thinking about the whole concept of "tinkering." I think everyone piles on about guys making "swing changes." Realistically we're always making small adaptations to our move. It's when it's going wrong and someone makes the excuse of a "swing change" that people are snarky. "I don't think about my swing, I just play." Blah, blah ,blah.

 

If we all hit bad shots, which we mostly admit. You're telling me that every guy on the line at a pro event who mishits a ball doesn't feel it through his hands look up and see the flight and instantly think "I did this....." And the acknowledgement is to NOT do it again. That's the definition of "change."

 

I've realized that I need an instructor that points out what he thinks we need to accomplish and then lets me try some things to accomplish it i.e. steepen the backswing plane. I'm okay with that concept, but I can't necessarily accomplish it the same way as everyone else. I know that the steeper the backswing plane the higher of a tendency I have to return to the sway (lateral hip movement) and have a more difficult time shallowing the club in transition. So I'm definitely going for the right temperature of porridge "just right" as Goldilocks would say.

 

Really good post and perspective here, Master MJ. I can relate to a lot of it. Nothing in golf is ever the same. Change is inevitable.

 

All that tinkering you do, as long as you do it METHODICALLY and PAY ATTENTION to what each 'tink' is doing, is going to help you learn your own swing. As long as you can find at least one cause and effect relationship out of all of it, then it was worth it.

 

I also think it is important to push your swing and try to do things with it you never tried before. Nothing radical or anything like that. Like you said, just little tweaks here and there. It helps you learn ball control and how to create shots. Sure, at some point you have to fix a majority of the variables to play any amount of consistent golf, but also consistent golf can also be consistently BAD golf, which then will require you to change something anyway.

 

Shot 40-42 today. I took an eight for just a complete meltdown of my short game on a par 5 and also doubled a par 3, so it could have been lower. My woods were on fire and my Retro TBs were all over the place. Aside from that par 5 my short game was solid. LOL my own confession and all this recent swing talk again has helped me on the course. I could think about my swing after the shot, but I was all about feeling it during the swing. I really did recover from two meltdown holes by making cognizant changes, and although I wasn't swinging it as well as my 78 last Sunday I again could "tweak" it enough to get it back on track.

[Matt J]

Glad to hear you got out on the course, Ninja.

 

I went out and banged a bunch of balls, too many probably. Good thing is that I'm feeling okay, so maybe after a couple of days of playing my recovery from the surgery is nearing completion.

 

I agree with how you look at it, too. Looking for cause and effects. I'm really tearing a bunch of stuff apart, but it's not like a drastic new swing. It's more about the backswing and the weight shift in the downswing and finish. I've struggled to stay in sync some lately and I'm overswinging especially with driver. I'm trying to stay behind the ball, so I do shift my weight all the way to my front foot, but then I instantly rebound back to my back foot. Bad news. I'm going for a controlled enough swing to stare it down from that front leg. I guess I'm going to have to accept that I'm not getting anymore distance with the old number 1 wood. Maybe I'll have to learn to hit my 1 inch over shaft :)

 

BTW, stuff is about to get real with the setup of my hybrids, FW's, and wedges. Can't wait for the SW scale to get here.

[DeNinny]

Glad to hear you got out on the course, Ninja.

 

I went out and banged a bunch of balls, too many probably. Good thing is that I'm feeling okay, so maybe after a couple of days of playing my recovery from the surgery is nearing completion.

 

I agree with how you look at it, too. Looking for cause and effects. I'm really tearing a bunch of stuff apart, but it's not like a drastic new swing. It's more about the backswing and the weight shift in the downswing and finish. I've struggled to stay in sync some lately and I'm overswinging especially with driver. I'm trying to stay behind the ball, so I do shift my weight all the way to my front foot, but then I instantly rebound back to my back foot. Bad news. I'm going for a controlled enough swing to stare it down from that front leg. I guess I'm going to have to accept that I'm not getting anymore distance with the old number 1 wood. Maybe I'll have to learn to hit my 1 inch over shaft :)

 

LMAO you say you overswing and you have seen mine. :taunt: Don't worry so much about overswing. I'm not saying it doesn't have issues, but honestly out of all the egregious swing flaws to have it is not high on the list. My take on swing "flaws" is that if you see someone on tour with the same "flaw" then it is absolutely NOT a flaw. If Daly and Sadlowski can overswing, then it isn't that big of a deal. I've always said my overswing was the last thing I'll fix in my swing and every time I get there and try to fix it, nothing really changes. As long as you swing the club on that balanced plane, then overswing isn't much of an issue. If you think about it, overswing is just early creation of lag. Some golfers (like you compared to me) underswing at the top and then on the way down they dynamically create as much lag as the guys who overswing create it at the top. So to me there is no need to change an overswing unless it is clearly causing a consistency issue.

 

The thing is about weight shift is that you literally have to move mass around in order to apply more pressure on one foot over the other. I think a lot of golfers misunderstand this and even those analysts that collected feet pressure data during the swing don't consider the true physics as to why the pressure on the feet changes during good swings. I think the data leads people to believe that they can just apply more pressure on one foot vs the other by just using their leg muscles. The reality of the physics say they can't based on using leg muscles alone. The physics of the feet action is really to just allow the legs to leverage the hips in a turning motion.

 

So then, how does the pressure on each foot change during the swing? The only way this happens is if the golfer's center of gravity moves over one of them. Once this happens, the force of gravity will pull on that CG and cause more pressure to be on that foot. So in sequence...

 

1) If the golfer has some secondary tilt at address, then his CG will favor his trail foot and thus he will automatically be set up with more pressure on the trail foot regardless of how he tries to set his leg muscles. If the golfer has no secondary tilt at address then he will likely have equal feet pressure.

 

2) As the golfer starts to backswing, the weight of the club and arms will move his CG more towards his trail foot and thus this will increase pressure on that foot while simultaneously lessening the pressure on the lead foot.

 

3) The weight shift over the trail foot progressively increases as the golfer takes the club to the top and thus at the top of the swing his CG will have moved to the trail foot as much as possible and so up until this point he has maximum pressure on it and the least pressure on the lead foot.

 

4) As the golfer starts the downswing, the weight of the club and the arms will start moving his CG back to center thus starting the change of feet pressure towards the lead foot and decreasing pressure on the trail foot. This is just the opposite of the backswing, but now also a new dynamic force is at play: centrifugal force. As the golfer accelerates his turn and generates clubhead velocity centrifugal force is going to pull the golfer's CG radially away from the center of his swing in the plane of it. So now this creates an added force that pulls the golfer's CG both forward and downward in an arcing path. So centrifugal force by itself adds dynamic feet pressure on top of normal weight shift.

 

5) By impact the centrifugal force is at max and again pulling the golfer forward and down due to the angled plane of the swing. And so more pressure will be on balls of the golfer's feet relative to his heels. At impact there will also be the most dynamic change in feet pressure occurring due to the high centrifugal force in a dynamically changing direction.

 

6) Post impact the weight of the arms and club is now moving toward the lead foot and so naturally there is more and more pressure on the lead foot until the final end of the swing.

 

So MJ, I don't know if this will help you but really you can't change your feet pressure by your leg muscles alone. You really can only use your feet to turn your hips. What shifts your weight is literally where you position the arms and club, your hips, and a little bit how you tilt your spine. But all that said you do use your feet to help absorb those weight and pressure changes on them and keep everything in the swing STABLE during all that dynamic action happening.

[Matt J]

Good post. I agree you have to move to move your weight, absolutely. And, that helps me, because I need to refine some movements to get my weight shift and hips turning back through impact more in sync with my arms.

 

I don't think just because you go past parallel, you're necessarily over-swinging. I have an issue where I "float load" the club and don't set my wrists until the top of the backswing. I'm trying to focus on my lead shoulder and turn it under my chin, but I have to be careful because I return to lateral movement if I don't focus on it.

 

I'm hitting the ball really well when it all goes right, but I can't stand that I have those big misses of a high handicapper back in my repertoire. I'll get over it. It's nice to have been able to practice on grass and not come home and worry that I had overdone it.

 

I can feel it coming... the video camera is coming back out. My biggest punishment to myself. Watch swing videos. Ugggh. I'd rather take medicine out of a spoon.

[Palauan Hammer]

Let me do my best "I&A" impression here MJ................

 

(scene)

 

Sounds like you have a swing flaw, it's not the weight shift, it the effect not the cause, post a vid.

 

(end scene)

 

:) How did I do???

 

 

I kid of course, and I just want to say I've enjoyed the posts recently. Ninja, thank you for that post on CoG and pressure shifting. MJ nothing wrong with making tweeks, people think I'm crazy because I'm always tinkering. And your absolutely right about hitting a bad one, I usually know what the cause is, and I suspect now that I understand my swing better I'll be able to make better adjustments on the fly if need be. Also, if your hitting some great shots working on new stuff combined with absolute stinkers it sounds like your doing right. When working on new stuff my brain will have the occasional "fart" where I make a lousy swing. But just keep exaggerating the move, make slow mo swings, and it becomes second nature fairly quickly.

[DeNinny]

Good post. I agree you have to move to move your weight, absolutely. And, that helps me, because I need to refine some movements to get my weight shift and hips turning back through impact more in sync with my arms.

 

I don't think just because you go past parallel, you're necessarily over-swinging. I have an issue where I "float load" the club and don't set my wrists until the top of the backswing. I'm trying to focus on my lead shoulder and turn it under my chin, but I have to be careful because I return to lateral movement if I don't focus on it.

 

I'm hitting the ball really well when it all goes right, but I can't stand that I have those big misses of a high handicapper back in my repertoire. I'll get over it. It's nice to have been able to practice on grass and not come home and worry that I had overdone it.

 

I can feel it coming... the video camera is coming back out. My biggest punishment to myself. Watch swing videos. Ugggh. I'd rather take medicine out of a spoon.

 

The other thing to pay attention to is how that centrifugal force pulls you off balance. Your feet are key in counterbalancing this. Humping the goat / early extension is a natural reaction to more force pulling you forward and down as you swing with high centrifugal force. Instead of this I think you and I are similar in that we like some weight on our heels at address which is more of a static counterbalance to the same issue.

[glk]

To me I basically maintain a stable CoM (or CoG) and train the pressure shift due to motion - start with a little more pressure on lead foot - to around 80% pressure on trail heel at top BS, going to lead toe and then moving to lead heel at impact. To me thinking weight can lead to sliding. So centered turn on BS, then down and forward to P5 - this is the key transition move, that to me, is the most difficult in golf, ie the separately of upper/lower body with the hip bump/secondary tilt - followed by an up and away move (more pronounced with longer clubs - look at any good player and you will see at driver impact the body is actually tilting backwards (and pressure has been measured and is temporarily decreasing on the lead foot and moving to the rear foot!) - the long drivers have this the most pronounced. whew.

 

I've been training this by taking BS with a club then pretending that I have a basketball in my hand I attempt to bounce it straight down - naturally causes my lower body shift/start of rotation in transition. If you have a basketball you can actually do use it and just bounce and catch the ball. Feel at top is pressure on lead toe and most pressure on trail heel. Takes a good hip turn to do with with lead knee going out to the target line and trail leg straightening and trail hip going up and back.

 

Starting to combine this with Monte direction of working on right shoulder down and seeing some real progress - big key was learning to relax the wrists which further relaxed my arms - my new intent is to throw the club under my imaginary extended left arm - the feel is effortless at times - even in the 60 degree temps here I've had 110 in on a 406 pretty much straight par 4 and 120 in on a 367 with 3w - still a bit too much thinking going on but with the additional relaxation I've started to feel the external rotation of my right shoulder coming down - lots of left leg only swings and slo mo to p6 feeling the club head stay behind and slight to the right of my hands - requires that external rotation.

 

One more week of good weather here - some 70s in the forecast for late week - then it appear the good stuff leaves and we are facing mid 50s with maybe some peeks at 60.

Never gets horrible here and you can actually play a bit - to me I need more sunny and mid/upper 50s versus my younger days when i played when it was in the mid 40s - those days are past.

 

Good post. I agree you have to move to move your weight, absolutely. And, that helps me, because I need to refine some movements to get my weight shift and hips turning back through impact more in sync with my arms.

 

I don't think just because you go past parallel, you're necessarily over-swinging. I have an issue where I "float load" the club and don't set my wrists until the top of the backswing. I'm trying to focus on my lead shoulder and turn it under my chin, but I have to be careful because I return to lateral movement if I don't focus on it.

 

I'm hitting the ball really well when it all goes right, but I can't stand that I have those big misses of a high handicapper back in my repertoire. I'll get over it. It's nice to have been able to practice on grass and not come home and worry that I had overdone it.

 

I can feel it coming... the video camera is coming back out. My biggest punishment to myself. Watch swing videos. Ugggh. I'd rather take medicine out of a spoon.

 

The other thing to pay attention to is how that centrifugal force pulls you off balance. Your feet are key in counterbalancing this. Humping the goat / early extension is a natural reaction to more force pulling you forward and down as you swing with high centrifugal force. Instead of this I think you and I are similar in that we like some weight on our heels at address which is more of a static counterbalance to the same issue.

 

I curl my toes at setup - an old Sam Snead thing.

[Matt J]

I mostly just finish out of balance, it's like I've held it together for as long as I can and then I just fall a little into whatever direction my momentum is taking me. Often times after great shots. Probably more often after great shots than bad ones. If I try and think about stomping the landing you can pretty much guarantee it will be a bad shot.

 

Glk, we move the weight around pretty similarly. I like to start a little more forward and I often rock a little forward and backward at address to get right between the balls of my feet and my heels. I'm a slider, too, so weight on my trail instep is critical to not drifting away from the ball (a little bend in the lead knee helps too). I'm currently most concerned about how I set my wrists and whether I'm too cupped at the top. I think I learned this to fight an OTT move when I was a beginner and then started slinging the club around my body quite low and flat to minimize the OTT. It seems that a flat move is actually helpful with the long clubs, but disaster with the short ones.

 

I'll enjoy working on it all winter. I don't think about it being a drastic change, I just wasn't impressed with my ball striking this year. I found a couple of band-aids to get me through and keep my scores relatively low, but I want to get it "right."

[DeNinny]

MJ I finish out of balance A LOT...the key is balance up until impact.

[PapaJohick]

Hammy! Awesome to hear there is a finish line in sight! I too like the come out cold idea. Almost wouldn't even do a small bucket haha. Too much chance that I would start thinking too much haha. Can't wait to hear about it.

[DeNinny]

Really good swing thoughts here, glk. I would like to harmonize them with my own thoughts and the physics of it all too. I hope it helps..

 

To me I basically maintain a stable CoM (or CoG) and train the pressure shift due to motion - start with a little more pressure on lead foot - to around 80% pressure on trail heel at top BS, going to lead toe and then moving to lead heel at impact. To me thinking weight can lead to sliding.

 

I would contend (and I alluded to this in my sequence post to MJ) that those feet pressures that you feel in the sequence of your swing are merely to SUPPORT the overall weight of your swing. Your feet are definitely powering your hips turn, and in order to do this they only need to put a shear force on the ground, meaning they don't need to push down into the ground they just need to apply a force in parallel to the plane of it. This is all that is needed to make the hips turn. And so back to those pressures you feel, as the overall weight of the swing moves around your body at a downward angle and then through impact and also past it at the opposite upward angle as the downswing, the total combined force of gravity and centrifugal force is pulling on your body at the shoulder sockets. And in order to stay in balance as this is happening, your feet apply pressure to the ground exactly as you described in order to counterbalance the overall dynamically changing force of the swing. And lastly in parallel to this balancing act the feet are doing, they again are powering the legs which in turn power the hips turn.

 

So centered turn on BS, then down and forward to P5 - this is the key transition move, that to me, is the most difficult in golf, ie the separately of upper/lower body with the hip bump/secondary tilt - followed by an up and away move (more pronounced with longer clubs - look at any good player and you will see at driver impact the body is actually tilting backwards (and pressure has been measured and is temporarily decreasing on the lead foot and moving to the rear foot!) - the long drivers have this the most pronounced. whew.

 

Yes! Centered BS turn is key. To me the physics is simple: The point between your shoulder sockets is the center of the swing. The key to consistency is to make sure that center is in the same exact spot at impact time and again. So the more that you keep that center in place, starting with the backswing, the more likely it will stay in position at impact. I know a lot of instructors emphasize the head position, but to me the point between the shoulder sockets is truly the swing center. The arms pivot up and down at that point and the shoulders rotate around it, making it the center or focal point of all three rotational dimensions. So if that center is not in the same spot, then it will mess up the position of at LEAST one of the rotations.

 

So to me it is important that that tilt move you mention occur by allowing the upper body to rotate around the swing center. And the only way to do this is exactly as you described which is with a hip bump (I daresay slide) in the direction of the target while the upper body stays in place. This is that tilted backwards position you mention you see in all good swings.

 

The other reason that tiled backwards position is so key is because that is where the point of maximum centrifugal force is going to occur, and the tilted position with both arms as straight as they are going to get is the best position to hold the club. It's just like a tug of war with the shaft at that point, you literally are pulling on the club to resist the pull of maximum centrifugal force. And the reason for the tilt is because this maximum point is always PAST impact when the intent is to accelerate the clubhead as much as possible going into impact. So if the clubhead is properly accelerating into impact, then it stands to reason that maximum centrifugal force is going to be past impact and so again that tilted position is the best, from a physics perspective, for simply holding onto the club.

 

You mentioned too that this is the hardest move in golf. I agree, but I don't see it as the spine tilt move as the difficult part, I see the difficult part as the arms and hands actions. Up until this point the action is pretty easy, the club is simply trailing right behind the hands as they arc on their own plane. The shaft plane is ideally pointing just below the ball rather than right at it and the hands are merely pulling the club downward along this plane. But eventually this simple position has to end because the clubface is also in that same plane which is exactly 90 degrees from where it should be at address. So somehow it has to rotate to square. And yes this is where the swing, to me is PRONE TO ERROR in the biggest way. From a physics perspective it is a mess. You have the trail arm straightening along its own rotational plane, and then you have the wrists unhinging whilst the lead forearm is rotating on its own axis, and lastly you have all of this arms and wrists and clubhead action happening in the bigger rotational plane about the swing center! That is at least three variables and degrees of motion all happening at the same time. This is why I see it as more complicated than the spine tilt. You can at least set up for the spine tilt at address, but the dynamic action of rotating the clubface back to square while releasing all the lag is something that simply must be trained and timed.

 

But now, how can it be made easier? I like to look at all of it as one action. The hinging of the wrists and the bending of the trail elbow 90 degrees is simply a single action instead of two separate ones. Up until the start of this transition move, ideally the wrists and trail elbow are still in the same position as they were at the top of the BS. Then at the start of it, I like to simply think of them as a single action: my trail arm merely straightens and at the same time my wrists simply unhinge and go back to address position. Those were the only two actions I did with those two hinges on the backswing, and thus I simply and simultaneously return both hinges to the way they were at address starting just about when my trail elbow reaches my trail hip. It then becomes just a timing issue as to when I execute this simple action in the downswing rather than thinking about anything like rolling my wrists or pronating/supinating them through impact. Ultimately all I am doing is trying to achieve address position but tilted at an angle post impact, and in order to do that I have to simply time the straightening of my trail arm (whilst also unhinging my wrists back to address position)..

 

So Matt J, you mentioned cupped wrists. I don't see it as an issue and the physics support simply returning your wrist hinge back to address without dictating HOW you hinge your wrists. What is important from the physics perspective is that the hinge is consistent and the hinge is in alignment with making sure the club is on the downswing plane during the first half of it. So cup, flat, or bowed wrists are all OK from a physics perspective and you can see this is consistent with the variability that you see on tour. There is no absolute on the topic of cupped wrists vs flat vs bowed. That said, cupping your wrists can be an issue only because they enable a lot of wrist hinge at multiple angles, so it is important that if you do cup your lead wrist, that you cup it CONSISTENTLY.

 

I've been training this by taking BS with a club then pretending that I have a basketball in my hand I attempt to bounce it straight down - naturally causes my lower body shift/start of rotation in transition. If you have a basketball you can actually do use it and just bounce and catch the ball. Feel at top is pressure on lead toe and most pressure on trail heel. Takes a good hip turn to do with with lead knee going out to the target line and trail leg straightening and trail hip going up and back.

 

Really good stuff here. As long as the hips remain stable in rotation and allow the shoulders to turn with stability, then there is no issue with turning them as much as possible. Again that lead toe and trail heel pressure at the top is in support of the new weight shift from the backswing and also that trail heel pressure is preparing for a powerful forward hips turn...in sync with the lead heel pressure gradually increasing...

 

Starting to combine this with Monte direction of working on right shoulder down and seeing some real progress - big key was learning to relax the wrists which further relaxed my arms - my new intent is to throw the club under my imaginary extended left arm - the feel is effortless at times - even in the 60 degree temps here I've had 110 in on a 406 pretty much straight par 4 and 120 in on a 367 with 3w - still a bit too much thinking going on but with the additional relaxation I've started to feel the external rotation of my right shoulder coming down - lots of left leg only swings and slo mo to p6 feeling the club head stay behind and slight to the right of my hands - requires that external rotation.

 

Yes relaxed arms is how you can get to that ideal position of tilted spine with straight arms PAST impact. With your arms relaxed, you can allow centrifugal force to simply "yank" them into position.

 

I curl my toes at setup - an old Sam Snead thing.

 

Yep that is a good setup move. Sam was the MASTER at lower body balance in support of the upper body and the centrifugal force of the swing. Observe the following and in particular pay attention to his knee position in relation to where his arms and the club are...his knees are always leading ahead in preparation for all that increasing centrifugal force...

 

 

 

 

[scomac2002]

Great visualization there in the series of photos, DeNinny! I see bits of my own swing in Snead's move without ever really having looked at it before. Most notably, the sensation of almost squatting down as you come into the ball with the required lag in the club, or at least that's what it feels like to me in my mind's eye.

 

Reading the passages in the text all makes so much sense to me as that is what I have been trying to do all along, perhaps not in the exact same words, but with the same intent. Perhaps that explains in some small measure why I have been drawn to playing vintage clubs. The swing that I have developed is really a swing from that era.

[DeNinny]

Great visualization there in the series of photos, DeNinny! I see bits of my own swing in Snead's move without ever really having looked at it before. Most notably, the sensation of almost squatting down as you come into the ball with the required lag in the club, or at least that's what it feels like to me in my mind's eye.

 

Reading the passages in the text all makes so much sense to me as that is what I have been trying to do all along, perhaps not in the exact same words, but with the same intent. Perhaps that explains in some small measure why I have been drawn to playing vintage clubs. The swing that I have developed is really a swing from that era.

 

So that squat move without any context is a potential variability and error adder. You can clearly see the drop in elevation of his head, which in turn will move his swing center (the point between his shoulder sockets) lower, BUT...look at his impact position! His head is back 'up' to just about how it was at address! His swing center and his hands position are darn near in the same spot too. What's different is that 1) his spine angle is tilted more away from the target, 2) his hips and shoulders are open and rotated PAST impact (and his knees are also ahead in support of this position), and 3) his trail arm is still slightly bent. The reason for this different position is because he is turning with the intent of "bottoming" his swing with maximum centrifugal force on the club and with full arms extension to a point PAST impact. So the only way he can do this is by being in positions 1), 2), and 3) AT impact.

 

So now, why the squat move if it adds variability? To me the squat move is just the result of a powerful leg drive in order to turn the hips hard AND it preps for that explosive release of all his lag through letting centrifugal force literally fling the club back to square and back to the straight arms position (PAST impact). It is a power move, and as long as he times it right AND he maintains the lateral position of his swing center, then the added variability of him squatting does not do much 'damage' to his consistency.

 

As far as his 'vintage' swing...LOL his swing is timeless and has nothing to do with the era of his clubs. His swing is 100% legit for modern as well as vintage clubs. From the pure physics perspective, his swing is doing the same thing to the club as any modern swing.

[scomac2002]

Great visualization there in the series of photos, DeNinny! I see bits of my own swing in Snead's move without ever really having looked at it before. Most notably, the sensation of almost squatting down as you come into the ball with the required lag in the club, or at least that's what it feels like to me in my mind's eye.

 

Reading the passages in the text all makes so much sense to me as that is what I have been trying to do all along, perhaps not in the exact same words, but with the same intent. Perhaps that explains in some small measure why I have been drawn to playing vintage clubs. The swing that I have developed is really a swing from that era.

 

So that squat move without any context is a potential variability and error adder. You can clearly see the drop in elevation of his head, which in turn will move his swing center (the point between his shoulder sockets) lower, BUT...look at his impact position! His head is back 'up' to just about how it was at address! His swing center and his hands position are darn near in the same spot too. What's different is that 1) his spine angle is tilted more away from the target, 2) his hips and shoulders are open and rotated PAST impact (and his knees are also ahead in support of this position), and 3) his trail arm is still slightly bent. The reason for this different position is because he is turning with the intent of "bottoming" his swing with maximum centrifugal force on the club and with full arms extension to a point PAST impact. So the only way he can do this is by being in positions 1), 2), and 3) AT impact.

 

So now, why the squat move if it adds variability? To me the squat move is just the result of a powerful leg drive in order to turn the hips hard AND it preps for that explosive release of all his lag through letting centrifugal force literally fling the club back to square and back to the straight arms position (PAST impact). It is a power move, and as long as he times it right AND he maintains the lateral position of his swing center, then the added variability of him squatting does not do much 'damage' to his consistency.

 

As far as his 'vintage' swing...LOL his swing is timeless and has nothing to do with the era of his clubs. His swing is 100% legit for modern as well as vintage clubs. From the pure physics perspective, his swing is doing the same thing to the club as any modern swing.

 

Ahh, but we agree then that Snead's swing isn't exactly the prototypical single plane swing that is taught today, it is something different even if it achieves the same sort of result.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to comment, but it really is too much analysis for me. I suppose if I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a bazooka, I might be more interested in the technicalities of why what I do doesn't work! :lol:

 

I've never really been a swing theorist, just contented to find something that works for me the majority of the time and with that I can see the similarity in what I attempt to do with what is chronicled above with Snead's swing. It's really kind of neat to find out that what I have dug out of the dirt is not unlike that of a great ball striker of the past. Perhaps this is simply a case of the inevitability of physics, but it's still pretty cool for two people of differing abilities in two different eras to arrive at a similar place independently. :good:

[Palauan Hammer]

Great stuff Ninja, also, I'm always impressed with GLK's swing thoughts and culinary insights as well haha!

 

I think the reason I'm able to generate decent club head speed is using centrifugal force, the whole let the club swing as freely as possible. The best way I can describe it is a merry go round already in motion and i just add more power without disrupting it's motion, if that makes sense. If my grip/set up match, and backswing is money, the club will go where it should granted I make a good transition. For me that's the squat, my coach ingrained that move on me before I knew what it was by making hit balls with a range basket between my legs. The old basket drill, it will be a staple in my practice routine when I get out there. Also, GLK talked about one of my big things in both drumming and golf for me, relaxed wrists or as Sam Snead would say "oily wrists"(he did say that right?) That creates a smooth release with the wrists straitening AFTER impact. Basically oily wrists = unforced/natural lag in the downswing resulting in easy power.

[LittlePoison1980]

Forgot to share this pic!! LOL my friend made this for me. I've long been known as the Cookie Monster, I have an unbelievable gift(?) to be able to eat LARGE quantities of cookies in a single sitting :)

 

 

He's gonna bring me luck, and ease the tension under tournament conditions, can't wait to go to battle with him!

 

 

 

 

I would have a friend of mine make me a Grover head cover. I would then be ritualistically punched by competitors for doing my damn good Grover impression instead of giving the normal needling.

[LittlePoison1980]

For the record, I also do a bad-a** version of Eric Cartman from South Park. I'm not kidding.

[Palauan Hammer]

Forgot to share this pic!! LOL my friend made this for me. I've long been known as the Cookie Monster, I have an unbelievable gift(?) to be able to eat LARGE quantities of cookies in a single sitting :)

 

 

He's gonna bring me luck, and ease the tension under tournament conditions, can't wait to go to battle with him!

 

 

 

 

I would have a friend of mine make me a Grover head cover. I would then be ritualistically punched by competitors for doing my damn good Grover impression instead of giving the normal needling.

 

My friend made mine out of a regular Cookie Monster doll, Grover is also one of my favorites haha!! I grew up on Sesame Street, Mr. Rodgers, Bob Ross, and The Frugal Gourmet (Jeff Smith). Those TV shows and Discover Channel. Honorable mention to Yan Can Cook too.

[Palauan Hammer]

For the record, I also do a bad-a** version of Eric Cartman from South Park. I'm not kidding.

 

I can do a somewhat terrible Cookie Monster, Kermit, and a really really really annoying Elmo.

[LittlePoison1980]

For the record, I also do a bad-a** version of Eric Cartman from South Park. I'm not kidding.

 

I can do a somewhat terrible Cookie Monster, Kermit, and a really really really annoying Elmo.

 

Elmo... I could certainly see that little jerk causing the odd scuffle at the 19th hole :black eye:

[DeNinny]

For the record, I also do a bad-a** version of Eric Cartman from South Park. I'm not kidding.

 

Dude, I gotta hear you say "suck my ballz" and sing the full version of "Kyle's mom" to determine said level of bad Word not allowed-ness. Post some vids.

 

LOL the South Park movie is arguably the funniest movie that I have ever seen. I wasn't even a big fan of the TV show but man even to this day the movie leaves me in tears laughing every time I watch it.

[DeNinny]

Ahh, but we agree then that Snead's swing isn't exactly the prototypical single plane swing that is taught today, it is something different even if it achieves the same sort of result.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to comment, but it really is too much analysis for me. I suppose if I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a bazooka, I might be more interested in the technicalities of why what I do doesn't work! :lol:

 

I've never really been a swing theorist, just contented to find something that works for me the majority of the time and with that I can see the similarity in what I attempt to do with what is chronicled above with Snead's swing. It's really kind of neat to find out that what I have dug out of the dirt is not unlike that of a great ball striker of the past. Perhaps this is simply a case of the inevitability of physics, but it's still pretty cool for two people of differing abilities in two different eras to arrive at a similar place independently. :good:

 

Ahhh...I see your point, but...I don't see the prototypical single plane swing of today as that different from Snead's, and also I don't even see it as truly single plane. To be really clear, to me the only single golfer that EVER had a true single plane swing it is Moe Norman. ALL other swings outside of this, to me and as per Jim Hardy's definition of it in the Plane Truth of Golf, are ALL two plane swings. And to me what really defines two plane swing is simply whether or not you raise your arms in the backswing and then lower them in the downswing. And if you really study them, both Snead's swing and the modern swing meet this definition. In fact, every single swing besides Norman's meets it. Moe Norman swung both the club shaft and his arms along the EXACT same plane. No lifting or dropping of the arms in relation to the turn whatsoever. That to me is single plane. Again, ALL other swings that you will ever study, including your own, will have an element of arms lifting in the process of shoulders rotating in the backswing and then in the downswing the arms will drop as the shoulders turn back to impact.

 

The reason I elaborate on this is because the basic science that I keep bringing up is simpler than any specific swing theory like Snead's old school swing vs the modern swing vs S&T vs single plane vs the flavor of the month swing "method". The science actually simplifies all the individual complications of swing "methods" into the same basic goals. What I mentioned above about the arms lifting and then dropping is universal (except in single plane swings). That spine tilt at impact is also universal. The action of the straightening of the trail arm and simultaneously unhinging of the wrists is also universal. What's not universal are things like whether or not you need a strong or weak grip or how to cup or not cup your lead wrist at the top or even whether or not you should squat in the downswing. So I know you keep thinking the science is really complicated and confusing, but honestly it is much LESS confusing than prescriptive swing talk and "methods". (LOL at least to me it is simpler.)

 

But anyway, I understand your perspective, but I will say that you are actually a swing theorist yourself as long as you have some cause and effect understanding of your swing or the swing in general. And as long as you swing the club with some intention, then there is absolutely some "theory" in your head that it will produce a desired result. I just think we all set our own personal limits as to how technical to get with the swing and that is really the only difference between us. What you define as too much analysis could be very little to some and what you define as enough analysis could be too much for someone else. But at the end of the day we ALL "theorize" about the swing. Don't kid yourself into thinking you don't. But if the technical no longer helps you, then absolutely there is no need to evaluate it any further than your capacity or desire.

 

Also FWIW, what you have dug out of the dirt via your own intuition and non-scientific means to match Snead is actually in full support of the science of an ideal swing. The reason the science of the ideal swing is "easy" and ideal is because that is exactly what the science supports! A consistent swing is one that doesn't require unnecessary motions or actions to change the ideal momentum of it. A powerful swing is one that focuses as much energy into that power and without it being wasted on other actions. Everything in nature wants to follow the path of least resistance and reach an equilibrium state. Swinging a golf club around the body is no different. The knee action in Snead's swing is simply supporting an upper body action in the most efficient way. To really simplify what I was saying, he is simply moving his knees in position to brace for the point of maximum centrifugal force which is going to be a point just past impact and when both of his arms are fully straight. You can clearly see this in the sequence if you follow how his knees move from frame to frame. The other thing I was pointing out that he needs to be tilted to most easily resist and hold onto the club at that point of maxium centrifugal force. Again you can clearly see this at the impact frame. His spine is tilted just as glk was saying. (LOL I'm sorry if this is still too much analysis. I'm just trying to share that I saw it as two simple physics goals.)

 

Great stuff Ninja, also, I'm always impressed with GLK's swing thoughts and culinary insights as well haha!

 

I think the reason I'm able to generate decent club head speed is using centrifugal force, the whole let the club swing as freely as possible. The best way I can describe it is a merry go round already in motion and i just add more power without disrupting it's motion, if that makes sense. If my grip/set up match, and backswing is money, the club will go where it should granted I make a good transition. For me that's the squat, my coach ingrained that move on me before I knew what it was by making hit balls with a range basket between my legs. The old basket drill, it will be a staple in my practice routine when I get out there. Also, GLK talked about one of my big things in both drumming and golf for me, relaxed wrists or as Sam Snead would say "oily wrists"(he did say that right?) That creates a smooth release with the wrists straitening AFTER impact. Basically oily wrists = unforced/natural lag in the downswing resulting in easy power.

 

Yes my man, your simple thoughts here are 100% aligned with the ideal physics. The overall weight of the swing or rather the "center of mass of the swing" should always maintain a plane and flat orbit around the center of the swing (the point right between the shoulder sockets). Newton's laws of motion require added energy or force in order to make the "center of mass of the swing" rotate off plane or along a curved plane path, and so really there is no need to complicate the orbit of the club around your body with tense arms that will fight the natural "energy efficient" rotation that comes with relaxed arms.

 

I will say again, the most complicated and error prone part of the swing is when the golfer is in the act of straightening his trail arm and simultaneously unhinging his wrists. This is when the clubface has to rotate from parallel to the swing plane to perpendicular to it and back to square. It is during this time where that overall "center of mass of the swing" starts getting complicated because the club shaft is no longer on that ideal plane I keep mentioning. At the start of the downswing, the shaft is on the ideal plane, but as soon as the trail arm starts straightening from being bent 90 degrees (which is what put the club shaft on the plane to begin with), then the "center of mass of the swing" starts spreading out where the clubhead goes above that plane and the hands and club grip fall below the plane. This is a very complicated action and so really to simplify it, you actually just let centrifugal force pull the clubhead back to square and pull the arms to fully straight. And the only way to allow this to happen is to have RELAXED arms.

[scomac2002]

I see your point, DeNinny. While I'm not as erudite as you in verbalizing what is going on and why in the swing, I most certainly have a feel for it. I guess I'm just more of a show me kinda guy rather than worrying about the whys. But then again, I have some ability to self-correct on the fly when things are going astray, so perhaps you are right in that I am downplaying my understanding of what is going on. I suppose my lack of analysis is self serving in the sense that it is a deliberate short circuit to the tendency to pollute one's mind with swing thoughts and avoiding debates on the larger subject. ;)

[LittlePoison1980]

For the record, I also do a bad-a** version of Eric Cartman from South Park. I'm not kidding.

 

Dude, I gotta hear you say "suck my ballz" and sing the full version of "Kyle's mom" to determine said level of bad Word not allowed-ness. Post some vids.

 

LOL the South Park movie is arguably the funniest movie that I have ever seen. I wasn't even a big fan of the TV show but man even to this day the movie leaves me in tears laughing every time I watch it.

 

I'll see what I can do... job apps are going out like crazy and I'm trying to crush a formal training program before the end of the year, but I think this may happen. A DVR recording will probably spare you the horror of my permanent Halloween costume. :D

[LittlePoison1980]

Glad to hear you got out on the course, Ninja.

 

I went out and banged a bunch of balls, too many probably. Good thing is that I'm feeling okay, so maybe after a couple of days of playing my recovery from the surgery is nearing completion.

 

I agree with how you look at it, too. Looking for cause and effects. I'm really tearing a bunch of stuff apart, but it's not like a drastic new swing. It's more about the backswing and the weight shift in the downswing and finish. I've struggled to stay in sync some lately and I'm overswinging especially with driver. I'm trying to stay behind the ball, so I do shift my weight all the way to my front foot, but then I instantly rebound back to my back foot. Bad news. I'm going for a controlled enough swing to stare it down from that front leg. I guess I'm going to have to accept that I'm not getting anymore distance with the old number 1 wood. Maybe I'll have to learn to hit my 1 inch over shaft :)

 

BTW, stuff is about to get real with the setup of my hybrids, FW's, and wedges. Can't wait for the SW scale to get here.

 

There isn't a single one of us that hasn't pondered the possibilities of the ol' Rocky Thompson shaft length driver at one time or another. Cue the muscle poses!