I CANT CHIP!!!!!!!! Please help with basics

[jbw749]

Personally if I force myself to accelerate through the ball I won't decel or stab at it, but I will struggle with distance control.

 

If I have time I walk around the hole and back to the ball observing the ground and slope and landing area, but I don't say anything to myself like uphill, downhill, left, right, ect... I just observe with no judgement.

Then before hitting the shot have a clear picture of landing spot, exhale during entire motion saying to myself "I don't care" while keeping that landing spot in mind.

As long as I don't "try" to hit it. The distance control usually works. Same thing with putting.

 

My practice swings are not for getting the swing speed matched up they're for getting the feeling of being ok with the outcome and not hitting.

 

Trying = yips, decel, stabs for me.

[flog2]

I am struggling so bad around the greens its embarrassing.

 

Hinge and hold, use the bounce, flop, .... I dont know what method to use.

 

Can somebody please explain the basics for me. The Simplest method possible.

 

Im also flubbing those 40-60 yard shots as well.

 

 

Worst part is I was a scratch golfer years ago now hover around 5 or 6 but almost refuse to play now....

 

Main question is at what distance do you good chippers go from no hinge putting motion to a hinge and hold kinda swing.

 

I feel your pain.

 

I was a 3 capper now off 7 and rapidly heading to 8. Average score in the early 80's. Get beside a green and its up and down in min 3 shots!!

 

Tricky chips and pitches I used to love, now they terrify me and I will thin, fat or mishit 90% off the time.

 

Like you also tried every method there is............maybe it just needs instinctive golf rather than methodical by the numbers static chipping.

 

Look forward to hearing a solution, there are many of us out there lol

[sbark]

I think alot of my inconsistency comes from club head beating hips back to the ball...........Set up as per the Golfwrx link....but a key point he missed adding I beleive is having the hips turning back to the ball at least in a tie, if not beating the club head to the ball........

 

http://www.pga.com/g...ts-simple-video

 

this guy lays it out, but again doesnt emphasize essentially hitting with the hips......

 

now i can imagine, as with everything in golf...........it can and will be overdone

 

had to edit........and no flying rear elbow...

[WILDTHING]

I went to the range a few days ago , and started to get the short pitch/chip shanks again. I've used all the below techniques but the shanks still appear out of the blue and can dent your confidence.

 

Stiff wrists , retaining that lower case Y ,rocking the shoulders, keeping that left wrist flat, throwing motion with the rear arm/hand (lead arm inert), upper arms connected while just using the pivot, piston-like hitting technique.

 

The one common denominator when I use all the above techniques seems to be setting up with an open stance !! Wonder if that is causing the problem coupled with not turning enough through impact? They all seem to work okay for up to 10-20 yards but then the odd shank appears when I try to get a bit more momentum . Could be caused by a whole bunch of reasons but can't figure the root cause.

 

Sort of tempted to back to the drawing board and resort to TGM mechanics using the same principle for chipping that I use for my full swing (right arm swinging method). Right forearm takeaway with an immediate dorsi-flexion of right hand while left hand hinges (left arm inert), but all the while keeping the club on plane (ie, tracing the base plane line) and keeping the flying wedges intact. May as well give it a try but I can imagine it may look/feel familiar to PM's hinge and hold technique.

[royourboat]

If you're really struggling, make it simple. Three simple facts if you are struggling or shanking chips:

1. You do not have control of the swingbottom

2. You do not have a repeatable motion

3. You don't have a forgiving motion (most likely getting narrow).

 

My suggestion to get back to basics:

Find swing bottom for your swing, use less wrists and less hips in backswing, keep it wide and shallow.

 

Swingbottom: Find a lie which isn't tight or fluffy or grainy, something forgiving, we need to find the swingbottom for your setup so we know where to position the ball. Brush the grass by swinging back and forth smoothly. Work out how to make it repeat a spot. This is your swingbottom. Understand it to be probably the most important thing in golf.

 

Repeatable motion: Take your grip. Setup with feet close together or heels touching (not negotiable). Setup with feet square-ish (negotiable). Practise without a ball. Using minimal or no wrist break take the club back. Do not take it back with your hips - they may move, but do not promote hip movement in the backswing. In the followthrough your hips should open some, more so the longer the chip, tiny chips, no movement.

 

Width: Hips and shoulders and hands move slow but accelerate slowly. Clubhead accelerates quicker than the rest, but on small chips you may need to feel it falling with gravity. This is to prevent it from getting narrow. Getting narrow is mostly caused by pulling the grip towards the target (ala holding lag movement). It's a natural tendency with anxiety and a hit instinct, experience/confidence and rhythm control will fix it. Changing basic mechanics wanting to find a complex answer is not going to bode well.

[thug the bunny]

Wow I never knew that chipping/pitching needed this much analysis. I figure out what trajectory I want, how hard I need I need to hit it to land it on my desired spot, practice that swing, and keep the club moving through the ball. Sorry if I'm oversimplifying things.

[Tanner25]

Wow I never knew that chipping/pitching needed this much analysis. I figure out what trajectory I want, how hard I need I need to hit it to land it on my desired spot, practice that swing, and keep the club moving through the ball. Sorry if I'm oversimplifying things.

 

After a few skulls, decels etc and horrible results, you lose all confidence. So, it's not hard. But, getting yippy with it, makes it hard.

[WILDTHING]

If you're really struggling, make it simple. Three simple facts if you are struggling or shanking chips:

1. You do not have control of the swingbottom

2. You do not have a repeatable motion

3. You don't have a forgiving motion (most likely getting narrow).

 

My suggestion to get back to basics:

Find swing bottom for your swing, use less wrists and less hips in backswing, keep it wide and shallow.

 

Swingbottom: Find a lie which isn't tight or fluffy or grainy, something forgiving, we need to find the swingbottom for your setup so we know where to position the ball. Brush the grass by swinging back and forth smoothly. Work out how to make it repeat a spot. This is your swingbottom. Understand it to be probably the most important thing in golf.

 

Repeatable motion: Take your grip. Setup with feet close together or heels touching (not negotiable). Setup with feet square-ish (negotiable). Practise without a ball. Using minimal or no wrist break take the club back. Do not take it back with your hips - they may move, but do not promote hip movement in the backswing. In the followthrough your hips should open some, more so the longer the chip, tiny chips, no movement.

 

Width: Hips and shoulders and hands move slow but accelerate slowly. Clubhead accelerates quicker than the rest, but on small chips you may need to feel it falling with gravity. This is to prevent it from getting narrow. Getting narrow is mostly caused by pulling the grip towards the target (ala holding lag movement). It's a natural tendency with anxiety and a hit instinct, experience/confidence and rhythm control will fix it. Changing basic mechanics wanting to find a complex answer is not going to bode well.

 

Many thanks for your suggestions above. I must admit that I think 'narrowing' might actually be what's happening when I shank.

[WILDTHING]

Wow I never knew that chipping/pitching needed this much analysis. I figure out what trajectory I want, how hard I need I need to hit it to land it on my desired spot, practice that swing, and keep the club moving through the ball. Sorry if I'm oversimplifying things.

 

After a few skulls, decels etc and horrible results, you lose all confidence. So, it's not hard. But, getting yippy with it, makes it hard.

 

I never used to shank and always wondered what the fuss was about and how people could possibly do it for such a short stroke. But when I started absorbing and practicing what I thought was good golf instruction to improve my game, I started getting them really bad and it took ages to fix , almost by trial and error because I didn't know the root cause was and just fixing one symptom that caused something else to go wrong. You really need a lot of confidence to play golf and imho, need to understand a bit more on the academic side of things to try and figure out cause and effect.

[deathbymuffin]

I'm in the same boat as a lot of you guys. Chunks, thins and shanks. Zero confidence. Finally checked myself on video and I noticed how quickly my upper left arm became disconnected on the backswing. In trying to get the club moving straight back and through, I was allowing the left arm to pop out, which in turn caused my hands to roll/hinge inside and the clubhead was getting way inside and behind the hands and arms. I was basically dead from that position and it took great timing/luck to hit a decent chip/pitch. James Sieckmann refers to this closed, overly shallow, position as "the fatal flaw."

 

What's fixed it for me is focusing only on keeping the left arm connected. With that thought alone, I'm now hitting my chips and pitches crisp and clean.

[ricklinens]

Playing it low and rolling the ball is probably as basic as you can get.

[Tanner25]

Playing it low and rolling the ball is probably as basic as you can get.

 

I have had some success with this. When things go wrong, I go low.

[WILDTHING]

I spent 4 hours doing 40 yard pitches at a local short game centre today and used impact tape to record my results . I tried a whole different styles such as:

 

1. Shawn Clements (see this you tube video) -

 

2. Pendulum wide type swing as per suggestion from 'royourboat' above.

 

3. Gary Pinns -

 

4. TGM - Right arm swinging pitch - reactive pivot (right arm start downswing- pivot responds to movement of arms) - a miniature version of my full swing.

 

5. Phil M's - Hinge and hold-

 

6. Leadbetter - Regular Chip -Body Turn -

 

7. Left hand very strong grip - (no PA3 - just PA4 and PA2 - meaning no left forearm rotation )- similar to this video but I think I did it wrong and also cocked my left wrist while also using the shoulders -

 

8. Rick Shields pitching action -

 

I don't know how to attach a scanned .jpeg document but the results show :

 

Point 4 above : TGM right arm swinging pitch has a better distribution of strikes closer to the sweetspot although still too many near the heel.

Point 3 - Gary Pinns still had a few shanks (coming down too steep - probably OTT) and most strikes closer to heel - but distance control pretty good

Point 1 and 2 - almost identical impact distribution but again mostly near the heel

 

Point 5,6,7,8 - too many shanks .

 

It seems that the pitching technique that suits my body better are the ones which do not involve a body controlled type swing (upper arms connected to my pecs). Any type of 'active pivot' using the legs or a shoulder motion starting the downswing causes me to have an OTT club path. The exception being Gary Pinns technique which is a bit strange. The difference in Pinns technique is that the torso has already turned against the connected upper left am at address , then the arms just move up in the backswing (no further body turn and no wrist break). Its almost an increase in X-FACTOR, then the upper body just turns through pulling the arms through the ball. Not sure whether the setup has an influence in stopping an OTT move in the downswing but I still had a few shanks but not as many as the other 'arms connected' styles.

 

Basically , my spine and hips are too inflexible to do a body controlled short pitching or long chipping action.

 

PS. Was searching around on You Tube to sort of explain point 4 TGM right arm swinging pitching technique and the below is the closest I could find. My right arm is releasing the left arm and my body is responding not leading (the sequence almost happening together to be honest). It also seems to explain why Gary Pinns method also worked for me (zero pivot).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWupt6lud3w

[Bronson]

Iteach/Dan Carraher has some really good videos on the short game on you tube.

[flog2]

rocco's style seems to work but I dont know why as its contrary to everything taught

[Tim Schoch]

Rocco's style is Jimmy Ballard style, and it works great, if you swing like that (moving the weight back, then forward, then up.

 

Rocco's style, per his two YouTube videos, is the only approach that works for me and virtually eliminates chunks and skulls.

[WILDTHING]

It's amazing that there isn't more studies done on the physics/geometry for certain aspects of the short game considering that 60% of all shots are within 100 yds. There seems to be a lot more analyses and data gathering going on for the full swing. So many different styles for the short game that its staggering that no-one has tried categorising them ,even at a very generalised high level, as suitable for inflexible or flexible body types. My little experiment with the different styles has actually given me some hard evidence that maybe only a few might be suitable for my body (for distances greater than 20 yards). At least its cleared a lot of clutter and uncertainty on the 'right way' out of my head and I can now concentrate on one style and focus on improving on it.

[Tim Schoch]

It's amazing that there isn't more studies done on the physics/geometry for certain aspects of the short game considering that 60% of all shots are within 100 yds. There seems to be a lot more analyses and data gathering going on for the full swing. So many different styles for the short game that its staggering that no-one has tried categorising them ,even at a very generalised high level, as suitable for inflexible or flexible body types. My little experiment with the different styles has actually given me some hard evidence that maybe only a few might be suitable for my body (for distances greater than 20 yards). At least its cleared a lot of clutter and uncertainty on the 'right way' out of my head and I can now concentrate on one style and focus on improving on it.

 

I agree. Jimmy Ballard and others says "It's simple. The chipping stroke is just a mini version of the full swing. Same swing for all clubs, just smaller, and adapt to the lie circumstances."

 

Horse hung. Phil's hinge and hold (which a lot of players use, whether they know it or not) is not a golf swing. It is a mechanical chip, just like the putting stroke is a robot stroke for some....not all.

 

I have had great success forgetting all technique and just trusting my feel and hitting chips and pitches....until I get self-conscious and think "Look at me, I'm hitting with feel!" and then, chunk, toe, top.

 

I think pick something that works most of the time, then put in the reps. Practice is everything, creating good habits. I'm talking hundreds of concentrated practice shots until you don't have to think much about the swing or path or error that could happen. That's why hinge and hold is so good...simple, the same all the time, relies on feel for distance. Except, I dig when I use it. I'm not fighting it, I'm abandoning it.

 

I do like Rocco's wider stance, how he "measures up" and swings mostly with the body. He says he doesn't use his hands and arms, but look at the video. He does. He's a feel player.

 

Psychology verses physicality. Which wins?

[WILDTHING]

I think it's difficult for any golf instructor to pinpoint how to do a particular golf stroke because they are doing it subconsciously most of the time. Then they analyse it and try to put into words what they thought they were doing at the time (even though subconscious means not consciously thinking). So how can they explain what their subconscious is doing? Maybe that's why we have so many different explanations of golf swing actions.

[Cicero]

I'm a big fan of chipping like a putt. I find it very low maintenance, and very forgiving once you get the hang of it. And I got the hang of it on the course (because it's basically putting, set up and all, so I was already familiar with the technique). The hardest part is probably figuring out club selection. But it has become the easiest thing to execute, next to a putt.*

 

*Not saying putting is easy, or easy to do well; just saying the putt is the easiest shot to perform.

[Tim Schoch]

Small chips with a 60-degree and my putting grip works sometimes. It is difficult for me to use the putting stroke to hit a ball that hard--and forget trying to add any kind of spin. Then you get into the gray area between a chip and a pitch, which is too far (for me) to use the putting grip.

 

I like to keep the thought in mind that my goal with chipping is to minimize the amount of time the ball is in the air. Get the ball on the ground and let it roll. On long chips, I'll use a stronger lofted club, which I like to do. But mostly I use the 60.

 

I've been practicing my new chip stroke every day, chipping maybe 100 times a day from various lengths. I took that chipping stroke out on the course and just made it bigger for all my iron shots, and I hit straighter than I have in a very long time. Distance suffered, but accuracy improved.

[flog2]

went out today, thins, fats chunks thins skulls etc had me reach beside a par 5 in two then take 4 more to get down. I need to majorly change but how?

[dlam]

Now that's it's mid growing season with fluffy lies around the green and soft turf I been use the flop more with LW

If the ball way above the feet then may shank so just square the club face and bump ball to the hole

It's similar motion in the sand I was using the chipping technique more earlier when it was more sparse grass around the green and when it was easier to putt and chip

[Tim Schoch]

went out today, thins, fats chunks thins skulls etc had me reach beside a par 5 in two then take 4 more to get down. I need to majorly change but how?

 

Tell you what, first relax. You know your problem, which is good. Don't keep doing the things that make the big mistakes, which is good.

 

Focus on how you can get things done. If you can't putt because the grass is too long or you are too far away, focus on your goal. What is your goal? I'd suggest getting it anywhere on the green, so you can then have a putt for birdie on those par 5s, even if it is a long birdie. How to hit the shot?

 

I suggest a hybrid. If you don't carry one, use a 5-iron. Take a few practice swings with your putting stroke and grip. Ideally, you should practice this shot. But it should pop you up on the green without the problems you are having. Then let your putter do the talking. (BTW, practice putting like crazy. If you can't chip, your putting better be aces)

[WILDTHING]

So should we have stiff wrists for tiny chips/pitches (retaining that lower case Y between shoulders and virtually straight arms/clubshaft) but then allow the wrists to hinge naturally for longer distances?

 

The next question is how does one allow the wrists to hinge/c0ck properly ?

 

I suspect you don't want the left wrist to 'palmar flex' or the right wrist to 'radial deviate' in the small backswing. That ideally one would want the right wrist to 'dorsi flex' while the left wrist 'radial deviates' like Martin Hall's recommendation below (I know the below is for the full swing but it could apply to long chips and pitches where one needs a bit of wristiness but also keep the club on plane).

 

 

 

PS. The above wrist setting action can occur when you have a neutral grip . If you had a neutral left hand grip but a strong right hand grip , then any dorsi-flexion of the right wrist will cause your left wrist to palmar flex . If you wanted a stronger right hand grip but didn't want palmar flex of left wrist to happen, you would have to radial deviate your right wrist rather than dorsi-flex in the backswing, The way you grip and hinge your wrists has a major influence on keeping your club on plane.

[Tim Schoch]

IMO it all starts with your grip--a loose grip--then your set up. Yes, keep the Y. For longer shots, take a longer swing and just trust your loose grip to do the right thing to get the ball to its target. Toss a ball underhand to short and long targets to see how you don't even have to think about what your hand is doing.

 

Keep your height, don't dip your back shoulder, play the ball center of stance if not a little forward. Weight equal, allowing weight to naturally move toward left on your swing through.

 

Keep it REALLY simple until you've hit a few hundred chips and have good distance control. Then you can add other elements to the swing to meet certain lies and conditions.

 

For me, playing the ball back and weight left is disaster. I want a chip to feel more like a putt than a totally different kind of chopping swing.

[Fort Worth Pro]

It's amazing that there isn't more studies done on the physics/geometry for certain aspects of the short game considering that 60% of all shots are within 100 yds. There seems to be a lot more analyses and data gathering going on for the full swing. So many different styles for the short game that its staggering that no-one has tried categorising them ,even at a very generalised high level, as suitable for inflexible or flexible body types. My little experiment with the different styles has actually given me some hard evidence that maybe only a few might be suitable for my body (for distances greater than 20 yards). At least its cleared a lot of clutter and uncertainty on the 'right way' out of my head and I can now concentrate on one style and focus on improving on it.

 

 

It is harder for the 3D mocap systems to get clean data on pitch shots. Those that have access to a good database of clean captures know what is going on. 1) Good pitchers of the ball do things very similarly. 2) there are some big differences from the full swing. 3)most people launch the ball way too high

[MPStrat]

It's amazing that there isn't more studies done on the physics/geometry for certain aspects of the short game considering that 60% of all shots are within 100 yds. There seems to be a lot more analyses and data gathering going on for the full swing. So many different styles for the short game that its staggering that no-one has tried categorising them ,even at a very generalised high level, as suitable for inflexible or flexible body types. My little experiment with the different styles has actually given me some hard evidence that maybe only a few might be suitable for my body (for distances greater than 20 yards). At least its cleared a lot of clutter and uncertainty on the 'right way' out of my head and I can now concentrate on one style and focus on improving on it.

 

 

It is harder for the 3D mocap systems to get clean data on pitch shots. Those that have access to a good database of clean captures know what is going on. 1) Good pitchers of the ball do things very similarly. 2) there are some big differences from the full swing. 3)most people launch the ball way too high

 

What are the big differences from the full swing?

[Fort Worth Pro]

It's amazing that there isn't more studies done on the physics/geometry for certain aspects of the short game considering that 60% of all shots are within 100 yds. There seems to be a lot more analyses and data gathering going on for the full swing. So many different styles for the short game that its staggering that no-one has tried categorising them ,even at a very generalised high level, as suitable for inflexible or flexible body types. My little experiment with the different styles has actually given me some hard evidence that maybe only a few might be suitable for my body (for distances greater than 20 yards). At least its cleared a lot of clutter and uncertainty on the 'right way' out of my head and I can now concentrate on one style and focus on improving on it.

 

 

It is harder for the 3D mocap systems to get clean data on pitch shots. Those that have access to a good database of clean captures know what is going on. 1) Good pitchers of the ball do things very similarly. 2) there are some big differences from the full swing. 3)most people launch the ball way too high

 

What are the big differences from the full swing?

 

Pelvis sway is different, lead wrist deviation is different, sequence is very different

[MPStrat]

It's amazing that there isn't more studies done on the physics/geometry for certain aspects of the short game considering that 60% of all shots are within 100 yds. There seems to be a lot more analyses and data gathering going on for the full swing. So many different styles for the short game that its staggering that no-one has tried categorising them ,even at a very generalised high level, as suitable for inflexible or flexible body types. My little experiment with the different styles has actually given me some hard evidence that maybe only a few might be suitable for my body (for distances greater than 20 yards). At least its cleared a lot of clutter and uncertainty on the 'right way' out of my head and I can now concentrate on one style and focus on improving on it.

 

 

It is harder for the 3D mocap systems to get clean data on pitch shots. Those that have access to a good database of clean captures know what is going on. 1) Good pitchers of the ball do things very similarly. 2) there are some big differences from the full swing. 3)most people launch the ball way too high

 

What are the big differences from the full swing?

 

Pelvis sway is different, lead wrist deviation is different, sequence is very different

 

Interestintg. Ive read that the best wedge players have more of a casting pattern, but hadn't heard about the difference in pelvis sway.

 

I could never hit it that well with a small version of my full swing no matter what I tried. Sometimes I could, but generally the aoa would be too steep.