I CANT CHIP!!!!!!!! Please help with basics

[Fort Worth Pro]

It's amazing that there isn't more studies done on the physics/geometry for certain aspects of the short game considering that 60% of all shots are within 100 yds. There seems to be a lot more analyses and data gathering going on for the full swing. So many different styles for the short game that its staggering that no-one has tried categorising them ,even at a very generalised high level, as suitable for inflexible or flexible body types. My little experiment with the different styles has actually given me some hard evidence that maybe only a few might be suitable for my body (for distances greater than 20 yards). At least its cleared a lot of clutter and uncertainty on the 'right way' out of my head and I can now concentrate on one style and focus on improving on it.

 

 

It is harder for the 3D mocap systems to get clean data on pitch shots. Those that have access to a good database of clean captures know what is going on. 1) Good pitchers of the ball do things very similarly. 2) there are some big differences from the full swing. 3)most people launch the ball way too high

 

What are the big differences from the full swing?

 

Pelvis sway is different, lead wrist deviation is different, sequence is very different

 

Interestintg. Ive read that the best wedge players have more of a casting pattern, but hadn't heard about the difference in pelvis sway.

 

I could never hit it that well with a small version of my full swing no matter what I tried. Sometimes I could, but generally the aoa would be too steep.

 

There is a cast but the representation of how that happens is wrong from most people.

[flog2]

update, I had my best chipping round this year tonight, using Furyks method for lower running shots, it should still work for higher chips over bunkers as well, I hope

 

[Tim Schoch]

update, I had my best chipping round this year tonight, using Furyks method for lower running shots, it should still work for higher chips over bunkers as well, I hope

 

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Most good chipper instructors will tell you to chip low. No such thing as I high chip--no need for it. Get it on the shortest grass and let it run. Pitches, however, are a different animal. So are flops.

[hlca]

I've been working on my chipping a lot in the past few months going from hinge&hold to bounce, etc. Uniformly I've found that I need to make sure the club head hits the ground in accordance with the lie angle of the club. So don't hit the ball with the toe down or heel down.

 

For higher chips, I also have to keep the weight forward while keeping my head behind the ball to avoid tops.

[Cwing]

Rocco Mediate's approach has erased 99% of my fat shots and 100% of chunk shots.

 

This is part one of two:

 

Nice

[Cwing]

I spent 4 hours doing 40 yard pitches at a local short game centre today and used impact tape to record my results . I tried a whole different styles such as:

 

1. Shawn Clements (see this you tube video) -

 

2. Pendulum wide type swing as per suggestion from 'royourboat' above.

 

3. Gary Pinns -

 

4. TGM - Right arm swinging pitch - reactive pivot (right arm start downswing- pivot responds to movement of arms) - a miniature version of my full swing.

 

5. Phil M's - Hinge and hold-

 

6. Leadbetter - Regular Chip -Body Turn -

 

7. Left hand very strong grip - (no PA3 - just PA4 and PA2 - meaning no left forearm rotation )- similar to this video but I think I did it wrong and also cocked my left wrist while also using the shoulders -

 

8. Rick Shields pitching action -

 

I don't know how to attach a scanned .jpeg document but the results show :

 

Point 4 above : TGM right arm swinging pitch has a better distribution of strikes closer to the sweetspot although still too many near the heel.

Point 3 - Gary Pinns still had a few shanks (coming down too steep - probably OTT) and most strikes closer to heel - but distance control pretty good

Point 1 and 2 - almost identical impact distribution but again mostly near the heel

 

Point 5,6,7,8 - too many shanks .

 

It seems that the pitching technique that suits my body better are the ones which do not involve a body controlled type swing (upper arms connected to my pecs). Any type of 'active pivot' using the legs or a shoulder motion starting the downswing causes me to have an OTT club path. The exception being Gary Pinns technique which is a bit strange. The difference in Pinns technique is that the torso has already turned against the connected upper left am at address , then the arms just move up in the backswing (no further body turn and no wrist break). Its almost an increase in X-FACTOR, then the upper body just turns through pulling the arms through the ball. Not sure whether the setup has an influence in stopping an OTT move in the downswing but I still had a few shanks but not as many as the other 'arms connected' styles.

 

Basically , my spine and hips are too inflexible to do a body controlled short pitching or long chipping action.

 

PS. Was searching around on You Tube to sort of explain point 4 TGM right arm swinging pitching technique and the below is the closest I could find. My right arm is releasing the left arm and my body is responding not leading (the sequence almost happening together to be honest). It also seems to explain why Gary Pinns method also worked for me (zero pivot).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWupt6lud3w

 

Wow! Lots of links to review.

[Tim Schoch]

Wow, great links! I have a chip swing I'm trying to make a habit. One strong key for me is to keep my right upper arm attached to my chest on a low follow-through for the normal chip. "Short arms" is what I think, meaning keep the upper arms close to the chest. Can't do it for all shots, but this thought keeps me from sending shots to the right.

 

Very helping thread.

[WILDTHING]

Here's another set of videos about the short game by Pete Cowen.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDQT-9_svlQ

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvw6RhVarF0

[WILDTHING]

Chipping in more detail below.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytI1mpKQb4g

[flog2]

for the love of God, someone help me get a basic, easy to replicate chipping technique that feels natural.

 

I adopted Furyks style today and had three fats and three thins, the rest were short..........I HAVENT A SCOOBY what I'm doing......yet I beat my handicap today with a decent long game and a few putts, what could I do if I could chip decent......

 

"I could've been a contender, I could've been somebody....." lol

[WILDTHING]

I spent another 3.5 hours at a short game centre just chipping and doing medium 40 yard pitches. I started at 16:45 and finished at 20:15 but guess what? My ball distribution around the hole was just as bad after 20:15 as it was at 16:45 . I think it's going to take a lot of 3.5 hour sessions for me to master the short game because the feel required to acquire just the correct momentum is in too narrow a band for me to get it consistently close to the hole . The pros make it look so easy because they've spent thousands of hours over their lifetime to get the correct feel and momentum required from a variety of lies. They are so 'honed in' on predicting the reaction of the clubface/ball that it reminds me of snooker players who can make precision cue/ball contacts to get the result they need (and they spend 5-7 hrs a day practicing for most of their career). :(

[Tim Schoch]

I spent another 3.5 hours at a short game centre just chipping and doing medium 40 yard pitches. I started at 16:45 and finished at 20:15 but guess what? My ball distribution around the hole was just as bad after 20:15 as it was at 16:45 . I think it's going to take a lot of 3.5 hour sessions for me to master the short game because the feel required to acquire just the correct momentum is in too narrow a band for me to get it consistently close to the hole . The pros make it look so easy because they've spent thousands of hours over their lifetime to get the correct feel and momentum required from a variety of lies. They are so 'honed in' on predicting the reaction of the clubface/ball that it reminds me of snooker players who can make precision cue/ball contacts to get the result they need (and they spend 5-7 hrs a day practicing for most of their career). :(

 

I think success comes with repetition when you follow a system and, (forgive me) you have the talent to do so. if you don't have the talent or ability (AKA age-related maladies) you need to adapt your stroke to your problems. Doing that might actually approve your game!!

 

Phil, Rocco, Pels, O'Grady, and a thousand other teachers have their own system for chipping. IMO LISTEN to Rocco Mediate's chipping advice. I mean, LISTEN...he explains why his stance is wide, etc. Knowing what works (for him) and what doesn't work (for you) is the key. There is NO RIGHT chipping stroke.

 

Rocco's approach opened doors to years of great chipping for me. Just saying.

 

Don't give up. Find something new. But the key is PRACTICE. HUNDREDS OF STROKES. ON GRASS.

 

I try to always remember this old saying: PRACTICE DOES NOT MAKE PERFECT. ... PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT....

 

Find the stroke that is as near perfect for you as possible, then apply Perfect Practice to hone it.

[Tanner25]

Try this and let me know. You have to actuallly try it to see if it works for you :-)

 

[flog2]

tried it- works fine when you have nothing to go over and the ground isnt soft.

 

I think I have worked out my issue (after more thins and fats today) until I adopted my new style which works for me, probably due to other factors I noticed in my chipping technique i.e my knees move a lot even in small chips. So I havent changed my set up, still feet open, close to the ball, ball about middle of narrow stance, now all I do is have the handle neutral, no shaft lean, the combination of that and my wobbly knees and a hinge and hold mentality is giving me exactly the chips I want and super confidence when I had zero before.

 

Like I say this is working for me, might not work for anyone else.

[Jim Waldron]

Here is what I have learned from two decades of conducting all day chipping "boot camp" schools.

 

1. most golfers have no clear idea of the many and essential differences between the long game swing and the short game swing.

They lack a clear concept of the proper impact alignments on a chip vs a pitch vs a flop shot vs a long game shot.

 

2. number one flaw in chipping is using wrist c0ck in the backswing and thus having to release it into impact. I teach using ZERO wrist c0ck and only a tiny bit of wrist hinge (right wrist bending backwards) when chipping. Makes solid contact so much easier. And there is no reason to ever c0ck your wrists on a chip shot - you are trying to hit a low traj shot with roll a short distance. Wrist c0ck adds height, spin and distance on a shot.

 

3. number two is right wrist flipping, almost universal for mid to high handicaps.

 

4. some will compensate for #3 with extreme shaft lean and/or ball way back of right foot at Setup. Makes it impossible to make solid contact from that starting position. You want just a little shaft lean at Setup, and the same amount or a touch more shaft lean at impact.

 

5. most golfers have their weight 50/50 at Setup, should be 70/30 favoring the front foot.

 

6. most golfers will use some form of hand/arm-eye manipulation to deliver the clubhead to the back of the ball. I teach using 100% pivot motion to apply the clubhead to the ball - much more reliable and easier to do. Both upper arms are glued to the chest, no bend in either elbow, no wrist change on the forward stroke.

[flog2]

 

 

 

4. some will compensate for #3 with extreme shaft lean and/or ball way back of right foot at Setup. Makes it impossible to make solid contact from that starting position. You want just a little shaft lean at Setup, and the same amount or a touch more shaft lean at impact.

 

 

 

just shows you theres no right or wrong way....

 

[Jim Waldron]

4. some will compensate for #3 with extreme shaft lean and/or ball way back of right foot at Setup. Makes it impossible to make solid contact from that starting position. You want just a little shaft lean at Setup, and the same amount or a touch more shaft lean at impact.

 

 

 

just shows you theres no right or wrong way....

 

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Rather it just shows you that some golfers can compensate - "some" of the time - for a poor starting position. Pelz is using a hinge/unhinge wrist action, ie he is actually adding loft and removing some of the shaft lean by un-hinging his right wrist a bit right before impact.

 

Can someone learn to do that technique? Certainly. But not all golf techniques are created equal, some are much easier to learn and to execute than others.

 

If he did not remove some of the shaft lean with that wrist action, he would likely have hit the ground a bit behind the ball with the leading edge, ie a slightly fat shot.

 

I put that advice about ball back of right foot in the same category of a lot of traditional band-aid instruction. It is something that may help mid to high handicaps in the short term, ie to make a toxic flaw somewhat less toxic. But it also makes it likely that you are never going to effectively learn proper technique, as the band-aid reinforces the original flaw.

 

Great chippers will usually have the ball in the middle of a narrow stance, 6-8" wide, with just a touch of shaft lean.

[flog2]

4. some will compensate for #3 with extreme shaft lean and/or ball way back of right foot at Setup. Makes it impossible to make solid contact from that starting position. You want just a little shaft lean at Setup, and the same amount or a touch more shaft lean at impact.

 

 

 

just shows you theres no right or wrong way....

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Rather it just shows you that some golfers can compensate - "some" of the time - for a poor starting position. Pelz is using a hinge/unhinge wrist action, ie he is actually adding loft and removing some of the shaft lean by un-hinging his right wrist a bit right before impact.

 

Can someone learn to do that technique? Certainly. But not all golf techniques are created equal, some are much easier to learn and to execute than others.

 

If he did not remove some of the shaft lean with that wrist action, he would likely have hit the ground a bit behind the ball with the leading edge, ie a slightly fat shot.

 

I put that advice about ball back of right foot in the same category of a lot of traditional band-aid instruction. It is something that may help mid to high handicaps in the short term, ie to make a toxic flaw somewhat less toxic. But it also makes it likely that you are never going to effectively learn proper technique, as the band-aid reinforces the original flaw.

 

Great chippers will usually have the ball in the middle of a narrow stance, 6-8" wide, with just a touch of shaft lean.

 

yup, that's me............now :whistleemoji:

[ricklinens]

4. some will compensate for #3 with extreme shaft lean and/or ball way back of right foot at Setup. Makes it impossible to make solid contact from that starting position. You want just a little shaft lean at Setup, and the same amount or a touch more shaft lean at impact.

 

just shows you theres no right or wrong way....

 

If he did not remove some of the shaft lean with that wrist action, he would likely have hit the ground a bit behind the ball with the leading edge, ie a slightly fat shot.

Great chippers will usually have the ball in the middle of a narrow stance, 6-8" wide, with just a touch of shaft lean.

 

Looks like Pelz is going toe down with the lean so even if a touch heavy won't make a big difference because for that shot it's more a mass event instead of a face event anyway.

 

I think great chippers will usually have in their bag, and use, a wide variety of options based on their circumstances, including a lot of lean when called for.

[ricklinens]

Rocco Mediate's approach has erased 99% of my fat shots and 100% of chunk shots.

 

This is part one of two:

 

This is good stuff I haven't seen before. Thanks.

[pmcuk]

 

..for the love of God, someone help me get a basic, easy to replicate chipping technique that feels natural. I adopted Furyks style today and had three fats and three thins, the rest were short..........

 

 

Same experience today. Worked on my short game Sunday - thought I had the Furyk-Donald style worked out, kind of the chip-putt. Under pressure - useless.

 

Wet back to Mickelson's hinge and hold at the end of the round and worked like magic. Go figure.

[WILDTHING]

Its the 'out of the blue' chip/pitch shanks for distances between 20-40 yards that confuses me. They tend to disappear for distances up to 20 yds and fuller swings over 40 yds. So what could the root cause be? My suspicion is veering towards the intentional keeping of weight pressure favouring the lead leg with an open stance as being the culprit. That this setup works for small chips/pitches but for some reason could be the cause of the odd shank in that 20-40 yd distance band (I have 50-50 weight pressure for my full swings normally).

[bdcava]

My killer is the shot from the tightly mowed fairway. I blade 50% of them. Been trying the Utley method as well as Monte's.

[flog2]

Its the 'out of the blue' chip/pitch shanks for distances between 20-40 yards that confuses me. They tend to disappear for distances up to 20 yds and fuller swings over 40 yds. So what could the root cause be? My suspicion is veering towards the intentional keeping of weight pressure favouring the lead leg with an open stance as being the culprit. That this setup works for small chips/pitches but for some reason could be the cause of the odd shank in that 20-40 yd distance band (I have 50-50 weight pressure for my full swings normally).

I would say its taking the club back too far on the inside for these 20-40 yd chips/pitches

[WILDTHING]

Its the 'out of the blue' chip/pitch shanks for distances between 20-40 yards that confuses me. They tend to disappear for distances up to 20 yds and fuller swings over 40 yds. So what could the root cause be? My suspicion is veering towards the intentional keeping of weight pressure favouring the lead leg with an open stance as being the culprit. That this setup works for small chips/pitches but for some reason could be the cause of the odd shank in that 20-40 yd distance band (I have 50-50 weight pressure for my full swings normally).

I would say its taking the club back too far on the inside for these 20-40 yd chips/pitches

 

Yes , it could be that too.

 

From what I've read, putting too much stress load on your lead hip basically limits the turning your left side of your pelvis. And if you need to get that lead side out of the way for a slightly longer pitch/chip , you then have to use your glutes or other leg muscles to help turn the pelvis (which can cause an early extension). That can push your hips and arms/hands towards the target line more than enough for a potential shank. And that's when the shank happens for me , a longer swing arc but with too much weight pressure preset too early on the lead leg almost locking/stopping it 'getting out of the way'.

[MonteScheinblum]

I know the discussion is about chips and not pitches, but the basic movemnet is the same. Below is an excerpt from my new short game video. It illustrates how a soft pitch works the same as a high soft toss.

 

If you tossed a ball the same way I illustrate as a low running shot, the same similarity to how you would move in a chip would be revealed. A shorter, faster version of what I do at 40 second mark.

 

 

 

[Tim Schoch]

Its the 'out of the blue' chip/pitch shanks for distances between 20-40 yards that confuses me. They tend to disappear for distances up to 20 yds and fuller swings over 40 yds. So what could the root cause be? My suspicion is veering towards the intentional keeping of weight pressure favouring the lead leg with an open stance as being the culprit. That this setup works for small chips/pitches but for some reason could be the cause of the odd shank in that 20-40 yd distance band (I have 50-50 weight pressure for my full swings normally).

I would say its taking the club back too far on the inside for these 20-40 yd chips/pitches

 

Yes , it could be that too.

 

From what I've read, putting too much stress load on your lead hip basically limits the turning your left side of your pelvis. And if you need to get that lead side out of the way for a slightly longer pitch/chip , you then have to use your glutes or other leg muscles to help turn the pelvis (which can cause an early extension). That can push your hips and arms/hands towards the target line more than enough for a potential shank. And that's when the shank happens for me , a longer swing arc but with too much weight pressure preset too early on the lead leg almost locking/stopping it 'getting out of the way'.

 

For me, I need a swing thought I do not have to THINK. Technical thoughts during my swing kills me, so it has to be natural or fluid. Rocco's thing is a follow through with hands/arms/hips, and at the end you are UP. Up to your front foot. At the end of the swing, lift your back foot and you're balanced.

 

So while my dead hands (eliminating hands is crucial for me on standard chips) are being carried by my upper body and arms in the backswing, I think "Up" at contact and my hips rise, my hands say level, and every single chip never takes even the smallest divot and goes the distance I want........after hundreds of practice shots.

 

I think the chip shot is so simple it is hard for someone like me. Because I can cut it, flop it, nip it, and any other kind of "trick" or manipulated shot you can imagine. But tell me I have to hit it straight and simple (like a putt) and it is difficult if I think too much. I need to decide in my mind on the direction and result of the shot, step in, last look, swing.

[nsxguy]

I spent another 3.5 hours at a short game centre just chipping and doing medium 40 yard pitches. I started at 16:45 and finished at 20:15 but guess what? My ball distribution around the hole was just as bad after 20:15 as it was at 16:45 . I think it's going to take a lot of 3.5 hour sessions for me to master the short game because the feel required to acquire just the correct momentum is in too narrow a band for me to get it consistently close to the hole . The pros make it look so easy because they've spent thousands of hours over their lifetime to get the correct feel and momentum required from a variety of lies. They are so 'honed in' on predicting the reaction of the clubface/ball that it reminds me of snooker players who can make precision cue/ball contacts to get the result they need (and they spend 5-7 hrs a day practicing for most of their career). :(

 

I think success comes with repetition when you follow a system and, (forgive me) you have the talent to do so. if you don't have the talent or ability (AKA age-related maladies) you need to adapt your stroke to your problems. Doing that might actually approve your game!!

 

Phil, Rocco, Pels, O'Grady, and a thousand other teachers have their own system for chipping. IMO LISTEN to Rocco Mediate's chipping advice. I mean, LISTEN...he explains why his stance is wide, etc. Knowing what works (for him) and what doesn't work (for you) is the key. There is NO RIGHT chipping stroke.

 

Rocco's approach opened doors to years of great chipping for me. Just saying.

 

Don't give up. Find something new. But the key is PRACTICE. HUNDREDS OF STROKES. ON GRASS.

 

I try to always remember this old saying: PRACTICE DOES NOT MAKE PERFECT. ... PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT....

 

Find the stroke that is as near perfect for you as possible, then apply Perfect Practice to hone it.

 

Like I told you before. There is no such thing as (makes) perfect. Perfect is not possible.

 

 

My vote. If you (the generic "you", not specifically you Schoochie) are struggling, pay attention to Pelz !!!

 

All sorts of parallels. What's the worst thing in the full swing ? A 2-way miss. If you're going to hit it straight OR left (or straight or right) all the time you can work your way around the course by eliminating one side. If you miss both ways you are toast.

 

Similarly if you can eliminate one of the 2 bad shots (fat/thin) on your chips, you're halfway home. And the one to eliminate, just like the full shot, is the fat one. (Pelz)

 

Eliminate the fat shot. Ken Venturi's school slogan is (was ?) "Thin to win". If you hit a shot thin you may go long, you may end up the right distance. If you hit it fat it generally goes nowhere.

 

And when you have a troublesome lie (in a divot, on a bare patch, in a fairway bunker), what is the general rule of thumb ? Right the first time. Play the ball back in your stance and make sure you catch the ball first.

 

Same same for chipping. The "putting" type motion, at contact, is, IMO, too close to the point where the hands start to get involved and, as one of the instructors above mentioned, higher handicappers inevitably start the wrists "breaking" BEFORE they make contact. Death.

 

In fact, just for kicks, like Pelz did, take what ever club you chip with most often and play the ball behind your back foot. See how often you make solid contact. Of course it'll go way lower but it is interesting. I play the ball back in my stance and make very clean contact most of the time. I move it up towards to the middle and become rather inconsistent.

[dap]

If all else fails use a chipper. The wide sole virtually eliminates fat chips so at least one of the "2 way miss" is eliminated. Unless you have aspirations to play scratch or pro golf, there is no shame using a chipper. Doesn't require hours of practise either so you can spend the time on other parts of the game. Chipping instructions lately have been advocating to use the bounce. A chipper does that for you. Some will say you can use any club as a chipper but the length, lie and bounce of wedges/irons are not the same. You can still fat them with normal clubs.

[Bingo1976]

For Chipping:

 

I use minimal wrist c0ck, just a putting motion with my shoulders with hands ahead of the ball. What I found was that I could nail every practise chip, but flub them on the course, so now I take a couple of practise chips and then address (including a quick glance at my landing spot) and hit the ball almost in one go. It doesn't give me any time to get nervous and seems to work so far. Assuming the OP has good fundamentals than this may help.

 

For Pitching:

 

I have been going through hell recently (mainly laying sod over the ball, and an amazing lack of accuracy that shames me as a single digit handicapper). Finally bit the bullet and paid up for a lesson. My coach is a proponent of the method taught by James Sieckmann and Stan Uttley. I like it because it doesn't feel like a shorter version of a longer swing. In summary:

 

Don't go down the grip. Totally relax the hands. To initiate the backswing, feel like your right elbow is riding up your side, and keep it close to your side. Use no active wrist hinge, and let the body rotation set the club. On the downswing, use no leg motion at all, and simply return the club on the same path, and do not try and use any forward press (see the video link below). The follow through should feel 'left', almost like you are hooking it. You can practice this technique with a towel under both armpits. It's totally transformed my wedge game. This works up to about 100 yards out.

 

http://www.golf.com/video/new-way-hit-wedge-shots-james-sieckmann