LAG

[robbyvegas]

How its done

I've been spending some time staring at Tiger's swing profile on Nike's site (let me know if you want the link and I'll be happy to post it). I've noticed that his wrists don't start coming around until they have passed his right thigh. I'm amazed. Initially, I thought that he must have incredible wrist and forearm strength to bring the wrists through that quickly, but as I've thought about it, I'm not so sure that this is the answer anymore. I'd love to get some input on generating lag from all of you. Not to say that Tiger isn't strong, but in my mental experiments I believe that lag may actually be a matter of keeping the wrists and grip loose all the way through the swing, letting gravity do the work of creating proper lag. It seems to me that as your arms reach the bottom of your swing (about where it appears that tiger's wrists start to straighten out), downward pressure will increase and pull the clubhead through for you.

In attempting this on my own it seems to be working alright, and my distance has increased, but I'll be the first to admit that my mental experiments aren't anywhere near the point of developing the general theory of relativity. Can someone out there give some input on this?

Thanks,
Rob

[villa]

You want to see lag, look at Sergio's swing. The club seems to be so far behind him that you almost can't believe he gets the club face back to the ball.

 

As far as Tigers swing goes. It's basically perfect. It's the speed of his swing that causes him to be wayward now and then.

 

From the top of your backswing to the point where your hands are level with your right thigh, all the work should have essentially been done by your left arm pulling the club down. If the right hand has taken over before this point then you run the risk of 'casting' the club.

 

If you slowed most tour players swings down to that speed then they should all look relatively similar at that point. Usually, only once the club is parallel to the target will they start to make a conscious effort to work on the right hand in order to release through impact.

 

Did that make sense? Probably not.

[robbyvegas]

That is actually a fairly apt description. I'm wondering what people mean when they talk about "release through impact". The term release suggests to me that something is being let go. What am I letting go of?

 

I still wonder what should do the work of bringing the club face down to the ball once your hands are even with the right thigh. Is it forearms and wrists, or gravity and centrifugal acceleration? I just finished my BS in electrical engineering and took a plethora of physics courses, so I'm interested in the actual physics of this. Anyone out there who has knowledge of this, or who can point me to a good article on the physics would be great.

 

Thanks :)

[slicefixer]

Ok.......hmmmm.......first of all Tiger's golf swing is FAR from perfect.......in fact, his driver swing (or anytime he trys to hit it hard) is basically AWFUL........now, his backswing on most occasions nowadays IS perfect IMOP with some of his IRON swings basically being perfect throughout the swing..........but his downswing with the driver, especially through the impact zone, is TERRIBLE.......he's MUCH too down the line and underneath, in fact, so much so that BOTH feet are 100% OFF the ground at impact in some driver swings.......TERRIBLE.........body frozen and arms slingin'......VERY active hands/arms/clubface....."recipe," especially with his strength/speed, to hit it all over the property.......he's still a LONG ways from his stated goal of "complete control over the golf ball" and he'll never find it if he's working on Haney's stuff.......Haney's throughswing idea is VERY flawed IMOP.........MUCH to "flipped" and down the line.......IMOP

 

As for lag, a LOT of golfers have DESTROYED their golf swings attempting to INTENTIONALLY create lag.........LAG is a RESULT of several different characteristics that come together to produce lag.......it's simply a RESULT.......SOME can create lag and improve thier swing, but, in my experience, MOST will destroy what chance they had of building a fundamentally sound motion/swing.........

 

However, since you want to know what creates lag I'll detail a bit of it......

 

- CUPPED left wrist at the top........TRULY flat left wrist GREATLY limits the amount of "****" in the left wrist and, in most cases, eliminates the ability to create any appreciable lag......the shaft CAN load and as a result the TIP of the shaft and head can LAG, but, as for the ANGLE/LEVER of the left arm and shaft increasing (TRUE lag) it's virtually an impossibility with a flat left wrist.......at least to any noticable amount.......with MOST anyway........

 

- The LEFT latisimus dorsi muscle (lat) is stretched in the backswing and the clubhead is "gravity set" VERY late in the backswing as the lower trunk begins the transition.......TGM calls it "float loading" I believe........basically the clubhead is moving in the opposite direction along its ARC/circle relative to the core's unwinding/rotation along it's ARC/circle.......for a SHORT period of time in the transition they are going in OPPOSITE directions at the same time.........the MASS of the clubhead moving down and AWAY from the target (at least as to it's relationship to it's ARC/circle) "loads the lever" (left arm/club/shaft) during the bodies transition.......result: LAG.......

 

As for RELEASING lag.......the ONLY reliable way to RELEASE lag is to work the butt of the club LEFT through impact which forces the clubhead back out in front of the core, unloads the lever, and squares the face without "thought".........IF you attempt to release lag via the hands/arms your DEAD.......SERIOUS blocks one minute followed by hooks/snap hooks (see Bobby Clampett during his later years on tour).......almost impossible to "time"..........that's why I always say "lag is a double edged sword, GREAT in the right hands that know how to use it, but, a disaster in the hands of a person who doesn't".......

[thenextnumber1]

I dont think u can build lag.

 

I think its just natural ability. You dont see no good athletes who dont have hardly any lag.

 

I think you have to be pretty athletic to create lots of lag.

 

But you dont need lots of lag, infact i think you will be more accurate with not much lag as long as you dont cast the club. But you will lose distance.

[robbyvegas]

Interesting. So, in condensing what I understand of your post, it seems as though the key is not to try and hold the wrists cocked and then to try and time the release, powering the club around, but to keep the wrists loose and supple. In this way, it seems that the club will do what your body tells it to through your swing... either lagging, or not (as the case may be for any individual athlete). Does that sound right?

 

Keep the wrists loose?

 

Thanks for the input.

[Placebo]

As for RELEASING lag.......the ONLY reliable way to RELEASE lag is to work the butt of the club LEFT through impact which forces the clubhead back out in front of the core, unloads the lever, and squares the face without "thought".........IF you attempt to release lag via the hands/arms your DEAD.......SERIOUS blocks one minute followed by hooks/snap hooks (see Bobby Clampett during his later years on tour).......almost impossible to "time"..........that's why I always say "lag is a double edged sword, GREAT in the right hands that know how to use it, but, a disaster in the hands of a person who doesn't".......

That sounds pretty much exactly where I am at right now. Hmmmm... I do like the increased distance I get with lag but the inconsistency is absolutely killing what little game I have right now. Thanks for the info slicefixer! Any chance you have any drills you could share to help induce thoughtless lag?

[slicefixer]

Interesting. So, in condensing what I understand of your post, it seems as though the key is not to try and hold the wrists cocked and then to try and time the release, powering the club around, but to keep the wrists loose and supple. In this way, it seems that the club will do what your body tells it to through your swing... either lagging, or not (as the case may be for any individual athlete). Does that sound right?

 

Keep the wrists loose?

 

Thanks for the input.

 

 

No, keeping the wrists "loose" isn't something I'd ordinarily recommend, although I will sometimes have a student focus on "fairly light grip pressure".........

 

Understand this also, trying to "hold the wrists cocked" isn't LAG, it's "maintaining the leverage"......they are 2 different things........."holding the angle/wrist ****" IS a great thing to think and work on in your swing..........IF your doing it correctly.......you MUST make sure your working to hold the lever correctly.........meaning the left side/left lat/core rotation is what "holds the leverage" and NOT the actual lever of the arm/shaft......IF you set the club properly at the top of your backswing, IF your arms are synchronized with your core pivot, and you've pivoted correctly THEN you can work on "holding the angle"/"holding the wrists cocked"........if not then you'll more than likely be working on something that is basically impossible to perform CORRECTLY and which can cause you to ingrain "feelings"/movements that will result in even more problems/errors........NOW, with all of that said, fooling around with LAG is something entirely different and is almost like learning to use dynamite. IF a person receives proper training and supervision it's ok, but, if your not careful it will blow up in your face.......:)

 

Now a drill that I use every single day is what I call the "right wrist drill".......you simply hit 1/2 - 3/4 SHORT irons focusing on limiting your armswing to "9 O'clock" while making sure that your right wrist is set (approx. 45 degrees to the forearm) by 9.......then you focus on unwinding your core to the left and holding the set of your right wrist and "trapping" DOWN on the ball........some like to focus on the left wrist and there is NOTHING wrong with that, I just prefer to focus on the right, at least as it pertains to THIS drill........ :russian_roulette:

[robbyvegas]

Ok. but my point is that I'm not controlling the angle with my wrists and forearms... I'm controlling that through proper timing, uncoiling properly to maintain that club angle. Is that right? I appreciate the exercise, but I'm not sure that I understand it. Maybe I'm looking at the clock from the wrong direction :) or not understanding what part of the swing you are focusing on. Could you explain that a little more? I'm thinking of facing forward and seeing the clock in front of me and facing me... ie

 

|---------------------12

 

 

|--------------9------(^)------3

 

 

|-----------------------6

 

sorry for the formatting :russian_roulette:

 

Thanks again for the help.

[CashmereGoatJ]

I think he means take the club back to about waist height or a little higher and make sure you set your wrist so that your hand makes a 90* angle with your forearm, then unwind with your lower body to pull the club head through. Not sure what slicefixer would say about trying to hold on to that wrist **** as you come through. If you do this, you should find that your follow through is shorter.

[slicefixer]

I think he means take the club back to about waist height or a little higher and make sure you set your wrist so that your hand makes a 90* angle with your forearm, then unwind with you lower body to pull the club head through. Not sure what slicefixer would say about trying to hold on to that wrist **** as you come through. If you do this, you should find that your follow through is shorter. (that's why it's called 9 to T H R E E.....hehehehe)

 

 

EXACTLY........:) Just picture in your mind that your LEFT arm is the hour hand on a clock face and that you TURN/WIND it to "9 O'clock" (as viewed from a face on view) with the shaft at least 90 degrees to your L arm........the "L" position......left arm and shaft form an "L" when viewed from a face on angle.

 

You see, IMOP a person can learn to swing a golf club beautifully by simply instilling sound fundamentals (primarily grip/posture) and then practicing NOTHING more than "9 to 3" short irons........once they can perform the combination of "9 to 3" and "Right wrist" it's simply a manner of learning what it feels like to turn/wind/stretch out a bit more then you simply "let it all go" with the EXACT same feeling you had doing the drills........Once this is accomplished you simply learn the differences in SET UP between different clubs/shots and your off to the races........of course this takes a year or more normally, at least to get it 100%........:russian_roulette:

[slicefixer]

Ok. but my point is that I'm not controlling the angle with my wrists and forearms... I'm controlling that through proper timing, uncoiling properly to maintain that club angle. Is that right? I appreciate the exercise, but I'm not sure that I understand it. Maybe I'm looking at the clock from the wrong direction :) or not understanding what part of the swing you are focusing on. Could you explain that a little more? I'm thinking of facing forward and seeing the clock in front of me and facing me... ie

 

|---------------------12

 

 

|--------------9------(^)------3

 

 

|-----------------------6

 

sorry for the formatting :russian_roulette:

 

Thanks again for the help.

 

 

 

As much crap as I catch here for my "ellipses" I'd be the LAST person to criticize your "format"......hehehe.....:crazy: ;)

[robbyvegas]

Thanks again. so, backswing to shoulder height with 90* wrist ****, then swing through to shoulder height again?

 

I'm not sure about the "right wrist" drill... is there a tutorial on these somewhere?

 

Thanks,

[slicefixer]

Thanks again. so, backswing to shoulder height with 90* wrist ****, then swing through to shoulder height again? No, left arm to waist high then right arm to waist high.......NOT pointed at "9 or 3" as the arms will be a bit "inside" to "inside," but, the arms are 9 then 3 high, waist high.........

 

I'm not sure about the "right wrist" drill... is there a tutorial on these somewhere? Man, I bet I've written about it 2 dozen times here and on BS.......just HOLD the angle you set in your RIGHT wrist as long as you can in the downswing/impact/throughswing.......one of the best drills imaginable........:)

 

Thanks,

[robbyvegas]

Sounds good. Thanks for the advice. I'll give those a try... :)

[akanacl]

I just finished my BS in electrical engineering and took a plethora of physics courses, so I'm interested in the actual physics of this. Anyone out there who has knowledge of this, or who can point me to a good article on the physics would be great.

 

Thanks :)

"The Golfing Machine" author Homer Kelly. As technical as it gets.

[hayam]

Lag is very simple.. as long as the power of the wrist is not Active . There is Lag.

 

 

Sounds simple but ... the difficulty is that our brain wants to square the club face.

[slicefixer]

Lag is very simple.. as long as the power of the wrist is not Active . There is Lag.

 

 

Sounds simple but ... the difficulty is that our brain wants to square the club face.

 

 

LOL.......man, is THAT ever true! (but, IMOP there IS a "technical" difference between maintaining the lever and "lagging" the head/increasing the lever/leverage......true lag)

[diablojoe]

Watch that Tiger video (not because he's "perfect," but because it's in super-slow-mo). Note how the clubhead begins the downswing on a circle that is inside the circle created by the hands. This keeps the total lever arm short so that momentum can be built up smoothly and without an explosive move. As the momentum builds, the clubhead moves out to, and beyond, the circle that the hands are following. As it does so, huge amounts of total system momentum are transferrred out to the clubhead and it goes through a huge acceleration -- with no unusual strength required of the hands! At impact, the hands are near a standstill, and the head is going very, very fast. It's an exchange of momentum that can only occur if the clubhead is inside the arc of the hands earlier in the swing.

 

You can't fake this by "trying" to do it. It just ... happens. Sure, it's a combination of hand speed and timing and biomechanics. But if you consciously try to hold the clubhead inside the hand arc for an extra instant -- you're going to be a hacker.

 

Here's a simple truth -- to hit the ball "pro hard," you have to have that lag. In order to have that lag, you have to be swinging the stick "pro hard." You can't have one without the other -- they are part of a whole. That late lag is a natural consequence of a smooth and powerful golf swing. Harder hitters will always have more lag. Guys who hit drives <200y won't have hardly any -- and shouldn't.

[diablojoe]

"The Golfing Machine" author Homer Kelly. As technical as it gets.

He also got a bit of it wrong. He was good at figuring out how to hit a ball, but he made some leaps of physics explanation that were off base. A fair bit of the important physics wasn't completely understood until people began to figure out the differential equations and run them through Mathematica.

 

One of the best ways to understand the pure physics of a golf swing is to read up on the physics of a trebuchet. Do a google or wikipedia search. When you understand how a treb works, you'll better understand what makes a golf club head travel at huge velocities with a low-velocity energy input.

[hayam]

Diablo, TGM book is not wrong.. its wrong to the people who don't understands it. The only person who is qualified to say the book is wrong is probably Mac O'Grady, maybe Chuck Evans. Though , there are some parts of the books that I feel should have better explanations, but I am not qualified. I studied the book for almost a year, and I think I understood 45% of the content with some help. How long did you read the book. 2 hours? 2 days? from your explanation, are you sure you have lag and compression? Your explanation is just plain observations, describing positions, nothing to say how u get them . Even professor of physics refer to this book when they want to understand the physics of golf.. I suggest you stand in front of Brian Manzella and tell him your thoughts for a start. Have a good day !

 

Slice fixer, we already revealed the secret but nobody wants to believe its so simple ... Shrug. I guess they prefer to go to you for lessons instead lol. Just being candid, its not as easy as it sounds, there are some important motions and explanation that is pretty tough just to explain in mere words.

 

Yeah.. I guess know the difference, you can maintain lag active effort or passively, muscular thrust or CF, but active effort is what I like( what u say true lag).. . But you have to give me more clue about the knuckle shot thingie ... Have to own that! :)