3W vs Driver off the tee

[JeffreySpicoli]

stats are stats......a tool...nothing more.....

 

I shot 38 this morning on the area's toughest course....hit my 3 wood on 6 holes.....driver on one hole....3 wood hit the fairway 5 times.....driver missed....I was way more accurate with the 3 wood today.....hit my target 5 out of 6 times for a 83% accuracy rate......driver 0%.

 

examples are taken from all over the internet, who gives a Flying F......thee fact you guys try to mold your stats into something more is hilarious to read....ive had lots of fun reading your posts and attacks on me.....it doesn't bother me one bit that you make fun of my disability, its just low class on your part, but ive had fun reading your posts as you scramble to try and prove these theories......its all good. I harbor no ill will.....

 

you have your opinions, I have mine.......mine are just more "accurate".....lol

 

This post demonstrates how you've failed completely to engage in this discussion.

 

You insist that FIR is the best way to evaluate use of 3W or driver off the tee. Others-including PSG and me--have pointed out that Strokes Gained Driving is a much better way to evaluate this.

 

Not once have you in any way addressed specifically how FIR is superior to Strokes Gained Driving. But you've offered bombastic and silly "lol"-laced one liners over and over.

 

If you would read chapter six--"Distance, Accuracy, and the secret of Tiger Woods: Measuring the Performance of Pros and Amateurs"--of Every Shot Counts and then actually engage with that material, then we might have a useful conversation. But you refuse to do so.

 

As far as your disability, I have no idea what you're talking about nor has anyone in this thread attacked it. If you have a disability, I'm truly sorry about that. However, I've no respect if you're now hiding behind that disability or using it as an excuse for your behavior in this thread.

[tsecor]

I am done with you and your attacks, you are a low class individual. very low class. so this is the last response to anything you post have a good day

[Golf4lifer]

stats are stats......a tool...nothing more.....

 

I shot 38 this morning on the area's toughest course....hit my 3 wood on 6 holes.....driver on one hole....3 wood hit the fairway 5 times.....driver missed....I was way more accurate with the 3 wood today.....hit my target 5 out of 6 times for a 83% accuracy rate......driver 0%.

 

examples are taken from all over the internet, who gives a Flying F......thee fact you guys try to mold your stats into something more is hilarious to read....ive had lots of fun reading your posts and attacks on me.....it doesn't bother me one bit that you make fun of my disability, its just low class on your part, but ive had fun reading your posts as you scramble to try and prove these theories......its all good. I harbor no ill will.....

 

you have your opinions, I have mine.......mine are just more "accurate".....lol

 

I'm curious, what scores did you get when you hit the fairway using your 3 wood from the tee and your driver?

 

I also played this morning and hit 4 out of 6 fairways with my driver and missed the fairway when I hit my 3 wood. I shot a 40 and my driver was the more accurate club off the tee today.

 

Out of the 4 drives that were in the fairway I got a par and 3 bogies. The two drivers where I missed the fairway I got a par and a bogie. The 3 wood where I missed the fairway I got a birdie. I had a two shots from the fairway that had tree trouble and I got the bogies.

 

Now I'm with you, that I count fairways as an accurate tee shot, but I'm finding that fairways hit is not always a good measure of an accurate tee shot. There are other factors that come into play and I'm learning that sometimes you have to look at the whole picture and not just one aspect of it.

 

Play well!

[pinestreetgolf]

Honestly the thing that absolutely baffles me about tsecor isn't his dismissal of statistics - there are tons of golfers who feel that way. If you read Nick O'herns book he talks about "never looking backwards" and that included statistical analysis. I disagree with him, but he's obviously a phenomenal golfer, so its not required to be good. Its a valid argument to make. The problem comes when you think your using no statistics but you are actually just using bad statistics.

 

Its the fact that he is *simultaneously* saying all statistics are worthless/wrong *while at the same time* using "fairways hit" as a good way to tell if cutting down your driver worked or not.

 

Fairways hit is a statistic.

 

This is why I think he is just trolling you at this point. There is no way someone can think both of those positions (the numbers of fairways you hit matters, statistics are worthless) at the same time. My suspicion is that he has no idea how to refute strokes gained driving and had to fall back on this statistics insanity.

 

I've had the strokes gained argument with people on these forums, and uniformly their arguments remove statistics from the equation - right or wrong - and they make some good points. But I've never had someone say "Count up your fairways! Also, statistics are nonsense!" I've had people argue traditional statistics are better than strokes gained, I've had people argue statistics are worthless on a golf course but I've never (until now) had someone who argued *both* that traditional statistics are good *and* that statistics are bad.

 

Like I said, I suspect he doesn't understand it or hasn't read it and therefore can't form an argument against it or he would have by now.

 

I think you are wasting your time Matt. Just let him tilt at statistical windmills.

[JeffreySpicoli]

Honestly the thing that absolutely baffles me about tsecor isn't his dismissal of statistics - there are tons of golfers who feel that way.

 

Its the fact that he is *simultaneously* saying all statistics are worthless/wrong *while at the same time* using "fairways hit" as a good way to tell if cutting down your driver worked or not.

 

Fairways hit is a statistic.

 

This is why I think he is just trolling you at this point. There is no way someone can think both of those positions (the numbers of fairways you hit matters, statistics are worthless) at the same time. My suspicion is that he has no idea how to refute strokes gained driving and had to fall back on this statistics insanity.

 

I've had the strokes gained argument with people on these forums, and uniformly their arguments remove statistics from the equation - right or wrong - and they make some good points. But I've never had someone say "Count up your fairways! Also, statistics are nonsense!"

 

Like I said, I suspect he doesn't understand it or hasn't read it and therefore can't form an argument against it or he would have by now.

 

I think you are wasting your time Matt. Just let him tilt at statistical windmills.

 

Agreed. My posts in the last two days have been to articulate what this discussion is really about. I think I've done that:

 

1. What's the best way to evaluate the effectiveness of club choice in driving? (Strokes Gained Driving is superior to Fairways in Regulation.)

2. How does one evaluate their own game? (One can track their performance via the Strokes Gained method.)

3. How might one improve their game once they have an analysis of it--in this case, assuming Strokes Gained?

 

This thread has crisscrossed these questions. I think being clear about the questions and the order in which they're addressed is useful.

 

The really interesting question is the third one!

[JeffreySpicoli]

I am done with you and your attacks, you are a low class individual. very low class. so this is the last response to anything you post have a good day

 

I've had many negative traits attributed to me. In fact, 183 negative traits. Yours is the 184th and it is the first time that "low class" has been used.

 

So low-class is only about one-half of one percent of those negative traits. I can live with that statistic :)

[lenman73]

Someone crying foul about personal attacks and then calls someone low class loses all credibility with me. Tsecor has come across as a child who should stick to playing tiger woods 2013 on the Xbox this whole thread.

[jewofgolf]

So upon reading this thread I checked out Scott Fawcet's videos and made a strategy for my rounds this weekend. This course is very tight (FTR I don't like it but play the tournament anyway for practice) and has some stupid holes. Every fairway is 25 yards wide with big trees and small trees everywhere.

 

Yesterday I drove it okay (nothing special) and magically when I hit a poor drive I was fine. I hit many more drivers there than usual based on the system. I was aiming correctly (often on the edge of a fairway). I was in great position when I did hit a good drive and hit a lot of approaches to within 20 feet (normally I only have 4-6 good looks at birdie: I'm a scrappy good short game scratch player).

 

Today I drove it miserably, but didn't lose a ball and basically realized that this system works and I need to practice my recovery shots more. I'm good at them but it's one thing for fun and another under some pressure.

 

I agree with PSG. 30 more yards and taking a risk of being in the rough is worth it so long as there is enough room to not lose a ball. Particularly for me, my accuracy increases a ton when getting closer. I would say an 8 iron from the rough hits the green 75% of the time and a 5 iron from the fairway 50%. No stats to back that up just my feel.

 

I also love the concept of nGIR. It makes sense when you have a good short game that being on vs. just off isn't a whole lot different. Give me a 60 foot putt or a 10 yard chip or bunker shot and I will average 2.0 and 2.1 respectively.

 

There is one hole that is a par 5 with water down the right (that can be carried with a good strike) and OB left. It seems intimidating, and I was going to hit driving iron. The water is in play with the driving iron, too. Day 1 I hit a good drive and a 3 wood to 20 feet. Day 2 I mishit the drive and laid up - made par. The point is I aimed at the center of my 65 yard wide area (just into the left rough) knowing that my left misses are layups and my solid shots and slight right misses are attacking positions.

 

Today eventually I felt like a 3 wood was smart considering how I was swinging, so I'm not advocating driver every time all the time. But generally, I'm going to use the DECADE tee shot strategy from here on and see how things go.

[lenman73]

I responded in kind by reporting you for calling Matt low class. Have a nice day. I

[JeffreySpicoli]

I responded in kind by reporting you for calling Matt low class. Have a nice day. I

 

No need. I found it amusing.

 

He picked an argument. He lost the argument in an embarrassing manner. He was a sour loser. It was nothing more than that.

[tsecor]

I just came back from my 2nd 9 holes of the day......hit the fairway 2x as much with the 3 wood as I did the driver....100% more accurate with the 3w.....real life trumps stats....sorry.....the positive part of this thread is I'm tracking this officially now.....

[lenman73]

You realize there are outliers. A 3 wood may be good for you. For me a 3 wood is no more accurate as a general rule. I also don't hit that far to begin with so I need all the distance I can get. Depends on person, depends on the course, depends on the hole.

[tsecor]

yup...works for me and a lot of others as outlined in the OP....and a lot of pros....but at wrx....a lot of members feel they know more than Phil Mickelson.....its one of the best laughs ive had around here

[JeffreySpicoli]

Is Distance or Accuracy Preferable Off the Tee?

 

https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/is-distance-or-accuracy-preferable-off-the-tee/

 

"The main take-away though is that long/inaccurate hitters produce more value with their drives over the course of the season. They’re constantly hitting closer approach shots which leads to more birdies. The only advantage possessed by short/accurate hitters is avoiding bogeys, but at the cost of making fewer birdies."

 

FIR doesn't tell you how well or how poorly your tee shots either help or hinder your scoring.

[lenman73]

I am Phil's biggest fan but for someone basing their argument on his course management, now that is funny.

[Golf4lifer]

I just came back from my 2nd 9 holes of the day......hit the fairway 2x as much with the 3 wood as I did the driver....100% more accurate with the 3w.....real life trumps stats....sorry.....the positive part of this thread is I'm tracking this officially now.....

 

I'll ask this again. What did you score on the holes using your 3 wood vs your driver? Fairways vs not hitting the fairway?

[tsecor]

I just came back from my 2nd 9 holes of the day......hit the fairway 2x as much with the 3 wood as I did the driver....100% more accurate with the 3w.....real life trumps stats....sorry.....the positive part of this thread is I'm tracking this officially now.....

 

I'll ask this again. What did you score on the holes using your 3 wood vs your driver? Fairways vs not hitting the fairway?

all pars with the 3 wood (5). 1 bogey and a par with the driver.

[pinestreetgolf]

a lot of members feel they know more than Phil Mickelson.....

 

You've ignored my last two posts asking for specific arguments against Strokes Gained Driving, so I suspect you will ignore this.

 

We don't think we know more than Phil Mickelson. We think the people whose books we've read know more than Phil Mickelson. That isn't the same thing. As I said earlier, Issac Newton is probably a better friction/non-euclidian physicist than a Jamaican sprinter but that doesn't mean he'd make their Olympic team. I didn't invent Strokes Gained Driving in my living room. A PhD in statistics that holds tenure at Columbia University spent eight years inventing it, and several others (Fawcett, Barewski, Wedzik, etc...) have picked up his ball and run with it (nGIR, Fawcett's tee system, etc...)

 

Its not us versus Phil. Its them (and their reasoning) versus Mickelson's one-of decision to play a 3 wood in the British Open. You are talking nonsense and you know it. Its annoying because its filling an otherwise interesting thread with good information with one-line nonsense. I actually had never heard of Fawcett before Matt brought him up in this thread. Theres good information in here but also tons of your one-line nonsense posts. Please stop. We get it.

 

if you posted your OP to get an echo chamber about how smart you are for cutting your driver down, sorry to disappoint you. Please stop posting.

 

if you posted your OP to learn something, go read the study or, if you've read it and don't get it message me and I'll happily walk you through it for as long as it takes. I don't want you to miss the information by being in too deep now to ask. I suspect you haven't read it though.

 

EDIT:

.hit the fairway 2x as much with the 3 wood as I did the driver....100% more accurate with the 3w.....real life trumps stats....sorry.....the positive part of this thread is I'm tracking this officially now.....

 

1. What do you mean "real life trumps stats". Where do you think golf stats come from? Narnia?

 

2. What happened to statistics being worthless? Your now using statistics to prove back to us that you're right! Should I just copy/paste all your anti-stats posts back at you?

 

Either stats are worthless or they're not. You are either a genius troll (possible) or this entire discussion is going way over your head.

[tsecor]

I am not responding to certain people any longer including you PSG.....I started the thread.....you can leave.....now stop bugging me please........thanks

[JeffreySpicoli]

I am not responding to certain people any longer including you PSG.....I started the thread.....you can leave.....now stop bugging me please........thanks

 

Yet another attempt to get in the last word.

 

In honor of Jordan Spieth's Open win today, I'll offer a saying that's popular in Texas. It describes tsecor to a T . . .

 

"He's all hat and no cattle."

[pinestreetgolf]

I am not responding to certain people any longer including you PSG.....I started the thread.....you can leave.....now stop bugging me please........thanks

 

Unfortunate. Given your complete lack of engagement on how strokes gained works (and its pros and cons and yes it has cons), I assume you don't understand it. I've had some great arguments with WRXers who understand SG but don't like it as a measuring stick but they engage us on the merits of the system(s) being used. If you want any explanation of the concepts we've talked about in here but don't want to ask now because it would be too awkward feel free to message me and I'll be happy to walk you through them. You seem passionate about golf and its a shame your pride will probably keep you from evaluating and potentially employing a powerful tool to lower your score.

 

All my best.

[Golf4lifer]

I just came back from my 2nd 9 holes of the day......hit the fairway 2x as much with the 3 wood as I did the driver....100% more accurate with the 3w.....real life trumps stats....sorry.....the positive part of this thread is I'm tracking this officially now.....

 

I'll ask this again. What did you score on the holes using your 3 wood vs your driver? Fairways vs not hitting the fairway?

all pars with the 3 wood (5). 1 bogey and a par with the driver.

 

Did you hit 3 of 5 fairways with the 3 wood and 1 of 2 with the driver?

 

I ask because regardless if you were in the fairway or not, you still scored well with the 3 wood. Why not apply this same thinking to your driver?

 

For my game, I use the driver or 3 wood based on what yardage a second shot I want, hitting the fairway is a bonus and I am just as accurate with my driver as my 3 wood and both serve a purpose.

 

With playing to a number I will ensure I have a short iron if not a wedge in to most par 4's. I am more accurate with a short iron in than a mid or long iron from the rough, weeds, or from the fairway.

 

My end goal is to get the best possible score on each hole and being in the fairway doesn't guarantee a good score on any given hole. We have to look at the big picture not just one aspect of it.

[JeffreySpicoli]

So upon reading this thread I checked out Scott Fawcet's videos and made a strategy for my rounds this weekend. This course is very tight (FTR I don't like it but play the tournament anyway for practice) and has some stupid holes. Every fairway is 25 yards wide with big trees and small trees everywhere.

 

Yesterday I drove it okay (nothing special) and magically when I hit a poor drive I was fine. I hit many more drivers there than usual based on the system. I was aiming correctly (often on the edge of a fairway). I was in great position when I did hit a good drive and hit a lot of approaches to within 20 feet (normally I only have 4-6 good looks at birdie: I'm a scrappy good short game scratch player).

 

Today I drove it miserably, but didn't lose a ball and basically realized that this system works and I need to practice my recovery shots more. I'm good at them but it's one thing for fun and another under some pressure.

 

I agree with PSG. 30 more yards and taking a risk of being in the rough is worth it so long as there is enough room to not lose a ball. Particularly for me, my accuracy increases a ton when getting closer. I would say an 8 iron from the rough hits the green 75% of the time and a 5 iron from the fairway 50%. No stats to back that up just my feel.

 

I also love the concept of nGIR. It makes sense when you have a good short game that being on vs. just off isn't a whole lot different. Give me a 60 foot putt or a 10 yard chip or bunker shot and I will average 2.0 and 2.1 respectively.

 

There is one hole that is a par 5 with water down the right (that can be carried with a good strike) and OB left. It seems intimidating, and I was going to hit driving iron. The water is in play with the driving iron, too. Day 1 I hit a good drive and a 3 wood to 20 feet. Day 2 I mishit the drive and laid up - made par. The point is I aimed at the center of my 65 yard wide area (just into the left rough) knowing that my left misses are layups and my solid shots and slight right misses are attacking positions.

 

Today eventually I felt like a 3 wood was smart considering how I was swinging, so I'm not advocating driver every time all the time. But generally, I'm going to use the DECADE tee shot strategy from here on and see how things go.

 

Thanks for sharing this. I continue to study Fawcett's system. I'm close to signing up for the basic version of Decade.

 

In additional to driving strategy, I'm also using Fawcett's attention to GIR Fat/GIR Short and Miss Fat/Miss Short. It's already helping my scoring as I find it easier to get up and down from the fat side rough with a 9 iron or a PW rather than a lob wedge from the short side rough.

[tsecor]

I just came back from my 2nd 9 holes of the day......hit the fairway 2x as much with the 3 wood as I did the driver....100% more accurate with the 3w.....real life trumps stats....sorry.....the positive part of this thread is I'm tracking this officially now.....

 

I'll ask this again. What did you score on the holes using your 3 wood vs your driver? Fairways vs not hitting the fairway?

all pars with the 3 wood (5). 1 bogey and a par with the driver.

 

Did you hit 3 of 5 fairways with the 3 wood and 1 of 2 with the driver?

 

I ask because regardless if you were in the fairway or not, you still scored well with the 3 wood. Why not apply this same thinking to your driver?

 

For my game, I use the driver or 3 wood based on what yardage a second shot I want, hitting the fairway is a bonus and I am just as accurate with my driver as my 3 wood and both serve a purpose.

 

With playing to a number I will ensure I have a short iron if not a wedge in to most par 4's. I am more accurate with a short iron in than a mid or long iron from the rough, weeds, or from the fairway.

 

My end goal is to get the best possible score on each hole and being in the fairway doesn't guarantee a good score on any given hole. We have to look at the big picture not just one aspect of it.

I hit all my fairways with the 3 wood. but not the driver....the shorter club is easier to control for me...sure I lose 20 yards but I hit my target each time....the driver not so much....I am simply more accurate with the 3 wood...this gave me much better scoring opportunities rather than playing from the rough or behind a tree or under a hanging branch....I simply score better from the fairway

[Golf4lifer]

I just came back from my 2nd 9 holes of the day......hit the fairway 2x as much with the 3 wood as I did the driver....100% more accurate with the 3w.....real life trumps stats....sorry.....the positive part of this thread is I'm tracking this officially now.....

 

I'll ask this again. What did you score on the holes using your 3 wood vs your driver? Fairways vs not hitting the fairway?

all pars with the 3 wood (5). 1 bogey and a par with the driver.

 

Did you hit 3 of 5 fairways with the 3 wood and 1 of 2 with the driver?

 

I ask because regardless if you were in the fairway or not, you still scored well with the 3 wood. Why not apply this same thinking to your driver?

 

For my game, I use the driver or 3 wood based on what yardage a second shot I want, hitting the fairway is a bonus and I am just as accurate with my driver as my 3 wood and both serve a purpose.

 

With playing to a number I will ensure I have a short iron if not a wedge in to most par 4's. I am more accurate with a short iron in than a mid or long iron from the rough, weeds, or from the fairway.

 

My end goal is to get the best possible score on each hole and being in the fairway doesn't guarantee a good score on any given hole. We have to look at the big picture not just one aspect of it.

I hit all my fairways with the 3 wood. but not the driver....the shorter club is easier to control for me...sure I lose 20 yards but I hit my target each time....the driver not so much....I am simply more accurate with the 3 wood...this gave me much better scoring opportunities rather than playing from the rough or behind a tree or under a hanging branch....I simply score better from the fairway

 

I hit two drives with the driver today I thought would be perfect. Both were in the fairway, but tree branches blocked my shot in. The one three wood was in the weeds but I birdie that hole.

 

Golf is a strange game. I used to hit my 3 wood like you until I figured out my driver. Now I love the extra distance I'm getting from it.

[tsecor]

 

I hit two drives with the driver today I thought would be perfect. Both were in the fairway, but tree branches blocked my shot in. The one three wood was in the weeds but I birdie that hole.

 

Golf is a strange game. I used to hit my 3 wood like you until I figured out my driver. Now I love the extra distance I'm getting from it.

20 yards doesn't seem to make or break my round.....in fact it helps me with my iron game even more, which is an added benefit for longer holes.....and tbh, I can hit the 3 w to the right side of the fairway, the left side if needed. some days I feel like a sniper hitting the bullseye......with the driver, its not like I cant hit it, but I miss the target a heck of a lot more and end up in worse positions....I haven't eliminated it, but the last few rounds ive done an experiment and it aligns with how ive hit these clubs for years.... It was like Spieth today....he left that driver in the bag and although he didn't hit it well, it won him a major....

[pinestreetgolf]

 

I hit two drives with the driver today I thought would be perfect. Both were in the fairway, but tree branches blocked my shot in. The one three wood was in the weeds but I birdie that hole.

 

Golf is a strange game. I used to hit my 3 wood like you until I figured out my driver. Now I love the extra distance I'm getting from it.

20 yards doesn't seem to make or break my round.....in fact it helps me with my iron game even more, which is an added benefit for longer holes.....and tbh, I can hit the 3 w to the right side of the fairway, the left side if needed. some days I feel like a sniper hitting the bullseye......with the driver, its not like I cant hit it, but I miss the target a heck of a lot more and end up in worse positions....I haven't eliminated it, but the last few rounds ive done an experiment and it aligns with how ive hit these clubs for years.... It was like Spieth today....he left that driver in the bag and although he didn't hit it well, it won him a major....

 

Please read this -

 

http://www.golf.com/...truth-out-there

 

Spieth is a pretty average pro by traditional stats like fairways in regulation. He is one of the best players in the world by strokes gained (our metric).

 

Which do you think is correct? How can you possibly say something like "it won him a major" and be completely ignorant of this? What we're saying won him a major!

 

You could not have picked a worse example than Spieth to state your case (as the article discusses).

[Golf4lifer]

I understand now. My driver is about 50 yards longer than my 3 wood on average.

 

Yeah there are those times when the driver is off, but you still need to hit it. It was a good win for Jordan.

[JeffreySpicoli]

Someone of the OP's professed ability should get more than additional 20 yards from their driver over their 3W. Someone who hits their 3W "like a sniper" should have good "accuracy" with their driver. Citing "accuracy" in this case is an undue focus on the symptom rather than the cause.

 

Sounds like a poorly fit driver and/or a swing problem with the driver. Always better to treat the underlying cause rather than bandaiding the symptom.

[LoopySwing13]

 

I hit two drives with the driver today I thought would be perfect. Both were in the fairway, but tree branches blocked my shot in. The one three wood was in the weeds but I birdie that hole.

 

Golf is a strange game. I used to hit my 3 wood like you until I figured out my driver. Now I love the extra distance I'm getting from it.

20 yards doesn't seem to make or break my round.....in fact it helps me with my iron game even more, which is an added benefit for longer holes.....and tbh, I can hit the 3 w to the right side of the fairway, the left side if needed. some days I feel like a sniper hitting the bullseye......with the driver, its not like I cant hit it, but I miss the target a heck of a lot more and end up in worse positions....I haven't eliminated it, but the last few rounds ive done an experiment and it aligns with how ive hit these clubs for years.... It was like Spieth today....he left that driver in the bag and although he didn't hit it well, it won him a major....

 

Please read this -

 

http://www.golf.com/...truth-out-there

 

Spieth is a pretty average pro by traditional stats like fairways in regulation. He is one of the best players in the world by strokes gained (our metric).

 

Which do you think is correct? How can you possibly say something like "it won him a major" and be completely ignorant of this? What we're saying won him a major!

 

You could not have picked a worse example than Spieth to state your case (as the article discusses).

 

Spieth hit 4 fairways all day on Sunday, and won the open championship....And that's all clubs not just driver off the tee. Not a great example at all.