Body Release

[mikpga]

Is 98 percent a fact or an opinion?

[hoganfan924]

Is 98 percent a fact or an opinion?

 

Of course just an opinion Mike, but I've run into way too many teaching pro's who insist that rolling over the forearms and turning the toe down is the right way to release the club and they teach this to all of their students. And it's no wonder that many of these students never substantially improve (several of them in the golf leagues I've played in over the last several years). I've also had this conversation with Slicefixer (who has talked to many teaching pro's over the years) and I think he'd agree (but maybe my percentage is a bit high). :beruo:

 

I am very glad there is a site like this where guys like you and slicefixer are willing to share your knowledge and expose your beliefs for all to read and learn from (or criticize and reject if they so choose). At least you guys are confident enough in what you teach and believe to share it, while other instructors and good players only browse this site to learn for their own benefit and not to educate. Slicefixer has been extremely generous in sharing his hard earned knowledge about this particular aspect of the golf swing that many other instructors would hold onto for their own financial gain, while he's given it away for free here. He's only one of two guys I've met that I believe truly understands the significance and importance of this "move," I'd been working on it in my own swing for 3 years because I saw this in Hogan's swing (while being told by several people that I was wrong, including a couple of instructors). After visiting with Slicefixer, it was total confirmation for me that I wasn't crazy in my beliefs about the golf swing. Hope I didn't insult anyone with my perspective, but as you well know, virtually anyone can hang a shingle that says "golf instructor" regardless of their knowledge.

[leekgolf]

I find the majority of teaching pros I know do not teach turning over the clubhead, but rather passive hands.

[hoganfan924]

I find the majority of teaching pros I know do not teach turning over the clubhead, but rather passive hands.

 

Leek, you are very fortunate, especially to have Brian as your instructor. To clarify one thing, you can have "passive hands" and still toe down the club through impact if the shoulder rotation stalls before impact (many pro's do exactly this) and that kind of release is still the antithesis of what I believe in and what Slicefixer teaches (and has written about on this site endlessly).

 

I can think of 2 Golf Digest "top 10" national guys (appearing on that list for many years) that have been instructing for over 50 years and have trained a few generations of new instructors. They have written books and are running golf schools that teach a hand controlled golf swing and that "the body/pivot responds to the action of the hands." That is the complete opposite of what Slicefixer teaches and believes in. How do they keep getting in the "top 10?" Because they are voted in by fellow instructors. Since both of them are well published and any instructor should be well familiar with their beliefs, I must conclude that by voting these guys as "top 10" that many of their fellow instructors concur with their philosophy of the golf swing and therefore teach a similar method (as I have personally experienced). If their fellow instructors thought they were full of it, they certainly wouldn't get voted in. On the other hand, Slicefixer, who has many very successful students (that started with him as rank beginners) doesn't even get a "best in your state" mention. And we wonder why handicaps have not dropped in decades and why more people are leaving the game than entering it! But perhaps this is the subject for a new thread.

 

Just 2 weeks ago one of the guys in my golf league was complaining to me about how sore his left forearm was and how he'd been hitting nothing but hooks for the last week. I asked him what he'd changed and he went on to tell me about the lesson he'd had with one of the "top guys in our state" (according to GD) and how this guy had instructed him to actively roll his forearms. I can assure you that I've heard much worse horror stories from guys in this state.

 

Consider yourself very lucky.

[leekgolf]

I have had the good fortune to get a series of lessons from several GD "Top 50" instructors including a couple in the Top 10. None taught rolling.

On the other hand, I have never had a lesson from Flick or Leadbetter. Don't imagine I ever will.

 

For me, Brian is by far the best instructor I've worked with.

[tugolf08]

I just started working on this exact thing with my instructor and the results have been tremendous and it makes complete sense. It takes all of the timing out of the golf swing, which will make it more reliable under pressure. I don't know of anyone who doesn't strive to achieve this.

 

There is no way i will ever go to an instructor who disagrees with this theory. I was unaware of this theory before the lesson and now i won't change from it. I'm a +.6 handicap and it should drop now.

 

Slicefixer, where do you teach out of?

 

Also, what is this "stalling of the shoulders" move? I have never heard of this being referred to before.

[Albatros]

My new instructor(6months) started me swinging left on the follow through as well. The swing thought was to lay the club on a table behind me on the follow through. I have to work on keeping the clubface open when I do it, but it works. I didn't hit much left once I got used to it.

 

But the big left does creep in on my driving and I'm trying to figure that out.

[larrybud]

I find the majority of teaching pros I know do not teach turning over the clubhead, but rather passive hands.

 

Just 2 weeks ago one of the guys in my golf league was complaining to me about how sore his left forearm was and how he'd been hitting nothing but hooks for the last week. I asked him what he'd changed and he went on to tell me about the lesson he'd had with one of the "top guys in our state" (according to GD) and how this guy had instructed him to actively roll his forearms. I can assure you that I've heard much worse horror stories from guys in this state.

 

Consider yourself very lucky.

 

No to mention our fellow leaguer that has been going to the same guy for 6 years, with zero improvement!

[larrybud]

Slicefixer, where do you teach out of?

 

Also, what is this "stalling of the shoulders" move? I have never heard of this being referred to before.

 

Slice is in Texas.

 

The stalling of the shoulders occurs when core rotation slows down before impact, and the hands pass them up. This is what you DON'T want to have happen if you're attempting to have a body release.

 

Once the core slows, the hands are the only thing which square the clubface, and it takes great timing to get it right.

 

(I think I've got that all right!).

[hoganfan924]

I just started working on this exact thing with my instructor and the results have been tremendous and it makes complete sense. It takes all of the timing out of the golf swing, which will make it more reliable under pressure. I don't know of anyone who doesn't strive to achieve this.

 

There is no way i will ever go to an instructor who disagrees with this theory. I was unaware of this theory before the lesson and now i won't change from it. I'm a +.6 handicap and it should drop now.

 

Slicefixer, where do you teach out of?

 

Also, what is this "stalling of the shoulders" move? I have never heard of this being referred to before.

 

Glad to hear! Slicefixer is in Texarkana (Texas/Arkansas border) and has his own teaching facility.

 

The stalling of the shoulder rotation is a very subtle move (or lack of a move!) that is very difficult to spot with the naked eye but can be seen very clearly in face-on frame by frame video. The results of this move are easy to spot with the naked eye however. What happens is that the shoulders either dramatically slow down or completely stop for just one or two video frames just before impact which allows the hands to "catch up" and/or pass the body. Golfers that employ this move typically have their shoulders square (or nearly square) to the target line as opposed to more open at impact. Of course there are varying degrees of this between players. The passing of the hands across the body causes the forearms to roll (even if the golfer feels that his hands are passive) and that begins to shut the clubface down through impact resulting in a lot of face rotation over a short distance (relative to a body rotation swing). Hardy calls this type of motion a "2-plane" release and it is very timing sensitive, in part because of the degree of face rotation that results through the impact zone. The feeling that the golfer will get is that the club is "chasing down the target line" and that the club is pulling on the right shoulder and pulling the shoulders around to the finish. Players that have this type of release can hit wild misses on both sides of the course. One swing could be a push or even push slice and the next could be a duck hook, especially for those less athletically gifted. So unless you are quite talented and hit a few hundred balls a day, consistent golf will be a struggle. Many great players actually swing like this quite successfully, so I don't want anyone to think it's impossible to do so, just makes things more difficult and complicated IMHO.

[mikpga]

Wasn't insulted, but thought it might be a bit exaggerated. I know all too well that many PGA Professionals don't know much at all regarding the golf swing or clubfitting.

[bombaway]

So basically what your saying is that I should have passive hands on the downswing and start the downswing with my hips and unfold and I should keep the body moving hard left through impact with zero hand minipulation throughout the swing?

 

I really like this thread and I think it will help me out a lot.

[hoganfan924]

So basically what your saying is that I should have passive hands on the downswing and start the downswing with my hips and unfold and I should keep the body moving hard left through impact with zero hand minipulation throughout the swing?

 

I really like this thread and I think it will help me out a lot.

 

Yes, this is certainly one way (I think the best way) to square the clubface up and release the club, but the zero hand manipulation is for the downswing. It is perfectly fine (and advisable for most) to employ some forearm rotation in the backswing, which helps to keep the clubface in line with the left forearm (on plane) and helps to reduce the tendency that many players have of crossing the line at the top. Then you just let it go on the downswing without any conscious thought or action of trying to roll the forearms through. The clubface will square itself based on the combination of the partial straightening of the right arm and the body rotation.

[leekgolf]

From Brian Manzella, here's how:

 

At address, bend over from the hips enough so you can reach the ball with little or no knee bend, and still can reach past your shirt seam with your left hand (not with a club).

 

With the butt of the club pointing as near to your belt buckle as you can, use your stomach muscles to move the grip end of the club in the takeaway, as if the head and was stuck in the ground. Use your hands to reach for the spot you want to hit at the the top, pulling all the slack out of your body, all the way down to your left foot.

 

From the top, start down by using the ground to stretch all the pinch-able fat and skin from the left side of your torso. Make a motion that would throw your arms right off off your body if you had detachable arms like a Mannequin. These arms should hit the ground near the target line just ahead of the ball. RESIST moving the "bowtie" area forward. Stay as bent over as you can and finish with your hands as far from your left ear as you can.

[glcoach]

The whole notion of a body release or swinging left allows you to be more natural through the ball.

 

Let me state that I spent a long time trying to "swing the clubhead" because it sounded simple and they said that's how Bobby Jones swung, in a phrase it is complete and utter garbage and btw, Bobby Jones has one of the best PIVOTS ever. I was the most horrible flip hooker of the ball you ever saw, no pivot action and all arms using "swing the clubhead". I hit my driver very inconsistently. After learning how to really swing the club, with Brian Manzella as my teacher. I can hit it a lot further and my handicap has dropped to 4 and I have broken par for the 1st time.

 

But.....I would have never found Brian or anything like that, if it had not been for Slicefixer and his recommendation that I read the book "The Inside moves the Outside" by Mike Hebron.