Body Release

[gentles]

Any theories?

Hi all, I had a session with my coach today, a mini overhaul of sorts. He said he wanted me to employ a "body release" through the ball. This involves holding off the release with the hands but firing the body aggresively through the shot. The result was a lower flight with a tendency to fade. He also mentioned something about "swinging left" after impact. Is this conventional technique? I will try and get a video up in a few days. For a reference, the club matches the spine angle when club is waist high back and waist high through. Any input/opinions would be great. Thanks

[hoganfan924]

Your coach is teaching you something that probably 98% of PGA teaching pro's have no clue about which is why you probably haven't heard of it. This type of release (swinging left after impact with passive hands) is a great way to swing the club. It is a hallmark of the modern "body rotation" swing, aka "one plane." This type of swing is exemplified by Ben Hogan, the greatest ballstriker in the game's history according to many (he released this way with every club in his bag) and can be seen in the swings of many of today's top players (Tiger wth irons, Trevor Immelman, David Toms, Johnathan Byrd, Zack Johnson to name a few). The key is you don't stop or slow down your body rotation through impact, the hips, core and shoulders need to keep rotating.

 

A couple of telltales of this release is that the hands will disappear (in the down the line view) in front of the body (at belt high) before the clubhead does and the clubhead will reappear well under the left shoulder. The club will normally finish from between parallel to the ear line (across your ears) to above parallel to the ground (clubhead above grip). Slicefixer on this site teaches this type of swing every day with great results. It will lead to more consistent ballstriking than any kind of active hand manipulation or forearm rolling or a swing where you slow your core down and let the arms cross over. Once you get this type of swing down, you will have much better control of your ballflight and should be able to hit a very consistent (and powerful) fade on command while still being able to hit a small draw as a standard shot (if you so choose).

 

I don't really care for your instructor as explaining that you are "holding off" the release as there is no hold off in this type of swing, just very passive hands = zero hand manipulation. You're still releasing, just not trying to time anything. You allow the release to happen, you don't make it happen.

 

I should add that successfully employing this type of release is contingent upon having a compatible backswing plane. It becomes very difficult to employ this type of release with an upright backswing, or you will have to reroute to a much flatter plane (ala Furyk)

[slicefixer]

Just do a search on my posts here and on BSG.......a TON of them will involve ALL aspects of what your referring to........just don't have the time right now to get involved in an explanation.....but there are TONS of previous posts......TONS.... :lol:

[LONG&STR8]

Take a look at Zack Johnson's swing. You'll notice that his hands are "swinging left" after impact with his right hand still being straight so you can see it better on him than others. This helps you not stop swinging at impact and to keep swinging through the ball. Most people are taught to swing "down the line" and your coach is trying to tell you that after impact your arms should not to straight down the line but to your left immediately after impact or at impact for a fade. I think your coach feels your back swing is already in good shape so he's trying to tell you not to worry about turning your hands over at impact. Just keep swinging through the ball and the release will happen and since you no longer have to worry about a release a lot of what can go wrong in a swing is magically gone. A lot of golfs best swings are like this. You'll hear either "one plane" or "rotary" when talking about this swing type. Hope this helps.

[ej002]

Is the divot supposed to go left? Is it bad if it goes straight?

[hoganfan924]

Is the divot supposed to go left? Is it bad if it goes straight?

 

The divot direction depends on your top of BS position, whether your sequencing is optimal and whether you are trying more of a left side or right side controlled swing (for a righty).

 

Examples:

 

Flat BS, strong left side pulling feeling (left side controlled swing), leading the DS with the lower core = tendency for slightly in to out or straight divot (Ben Hogan is a great example)

 

More Upright BS, right forearm throwout feeling (right side controlled swing), starting down with the core and shoulders together = tendency for a more out to in divot path (Sam Snead later in his career is a great example)

 

If prefer a BS where the left arm is on or close to being across the shoulder plane (similar to Hardy 1 plane) the left side pulling feeling and leading with an unwinding of the lower core (with quiet feet). This will tend to create a small draw, however it is easy to hit a powerful fade from this action by slightly weakening the grip, while pulling as hard to the left as possible.

[slicefixer]

Is the divot supposed to go left? Is it bad if it goes straight?

 

 

With a rotational release the divot CURVES to the left.....you can see it with a short iron out of certain types of grasses......the clubhead swings on an ARC from inside to back to the inside.........the ONLY part of a divot that matters is the FIRST 2 inches.....take a couple of tees and align them with the inside and outisde of the first 2" of the divot......THAT is the direction the clubhead was traveling at, and just after, impact, and that IS all that matters.........most, including (unfortunately) teaching professionals, pay too much attention to the direction of the TOTAL divot.......mistake.........a "good" divot works to the left......

 

One other thing, you CAN hook/draw/fade, etc. with the same rotational swing........what your working on is NOT primarliy a "fade" golf swing........

[LONG&STR8]

Is the divot supposed to go left? Is it bad if it goes straight?

 

 

The divot doesn't have to go left but most good players play a fade into greens with iron shots. I think it was Lee Trevino that said you can talk to a fade but a draw won't listen. John Daly got his distance control under control better when he changed from a draw which he said would go between 180 and 220 yards if he hit a draw with his 5 iron and now he can hit a fade and know how far it's going and it'll be more likely to drop and stop if you hit a fade. If divots go left it's definitely better to have a weaker grip to prevent hooks.

[gentles]

wow, awesome responses guys. The aim of this process was to try and take out the left hand side of the golf course, as my miss in previous times has been a quick, deadly hook. I had a feeling that this was similar to the move that Slicefixer teaches, I just got lost in translation. Slicefixer - I will be sure to look into this more. Does anyone have any good drills to help get create this feeling? Thanks again guys.

[LONG&STR8]

Is the divot supposed to go left? Is it bad if it goes straight?

 

 

With a rotational release the divot CURVES to the left.....you can see it with a short iron out of certain types of grasses......the clubhead swings on an ARC from inside to back to the inside.........the ONLY part of a divot that matters is the FIRST 2 inches.....take a couple of tees and align them with the inside and outisde of the first 2" of the divot......THAT is the direction the clubhead was traveling at, and just after, impact, and that IS all that matters.........most, including (unfortunately) teaching professionals, pay too much attention to the direction of the TOTAL divot.......mistake.........a "good" divot works to the left......

 

One other thing, you CAN hook/draw/fade, etc. with the same rotational swing........what your working on is NOT primarliy a "fade" golf swing........

 

Very true, this swing is "in to in" as apposed to conventional teaching of swinging "in to out" so your divots kind of look like this ) but the end part of the divot doesn't matter since the ball is already 50 yards away.

[LONG&STR8]

wow, awesome responses guys. The aim of this process was to try and take out the left hand side of the golf course, as my miss in previous times has been a quick, deadly hook. I had a feeling that this was similar to the move that Slicefixer teaches, I just got lost in translation. Slicefixer - I will be sure to look into this more. Does anyone have any good drills to help get create this feeling? Thanks again guys.

 

 

Yeah, pull with your right hand on the back swing and pull with your left hand on the follow through. That works for me. Do the gloves in both armpits drill that so many players do and don't let them fall out until you're done swinging. When you get this down you'll almost be able to hit the ball blindfolded like tiger has done in a past commercial.

[Geohans]

Yes, he's giving you the right approach in my opinion.

 

ben Hogan, The Golf Machine, Ben Doyle, Mac O'Grady-- good lineage.

[leekgolf]

Hi all, I had a session with my coach today, a mini overhaul of sorts. He said he wanted me to employ a "body release" through the ball. This involves holding off the release with the hands but firing the body aggresively through the shot. The result was a lower flight with a tendency to fade. He also mentioned something about "swinging left" after impact. Is this conventional technique? I will try and get a video up in a few days. For a reference, the club matches the spine angle when club is waist high back and waist high through. Any input/opinions would be great. Thanks

 

 

This is not a new idea, but it is the predominant swing of the "expert" golfer. It takes most timing out of the swing and creates much more power. Swinging left after impact is a feeling. The truth is the club follows an arc determined by your pivot. It will follow the body if you pivot correctly and it will "feel" left.

 

For more about this you might want to check out the forums at brianmanzella.com

[hoganfan924]

This is not a new idea, but it is the predominant swing of the "expert" golfer. It takes most timing out of the swing and creates much more power. Swinging left after impact is a feeling. The truth is the club follows an arc determined by your pivot. It will follow the body if you pivot correctly and it will "feel" left.

 

For more about this you might want to check out the forums at brianmanzella.com

 

Leek,

 

I'll agree that all pro golfers (heck, almost all golfers) have some move left after impact but the differences between how a Colin Montgomerie, Hale Irwin, Vijay and Couples release the club through the impact zone and how Immelman, Toms, Hogan, Snead & Jonathan Byrd release it is 100% night and day. The latter group pulls the grip/butt of the club left with their body rotation (what Gentels' coach I believe is trying to teach him and what you pointed out above - the arms follow the pivot) so that the hands will disappear in front of the body in a DTL view before the clubhead = minimal clubface rotation through impact, I believe that TGM'rs call that a Centripetal, Cp or "arc of approach" release, while the latter group stalls their body rotation halfway down and slings their arms down the line and crosses over their forearms = maximum clubface rotation through impact. I think TGM'rs call that a Centrifugal, Cf or "straight line angle of approach" release. Hardy calls it one plane and two plane. Slicefixer calls it "modern" vs. "old school" or "pulling the butt of the club left" vs. "slinging it down the line" and he has posted about this dozens of times on this site.

 

Swinging left is certainly not a new idea as great players have been doing this since the advent of steel shafts, but unfortunately, it's something that very few teaching pro's teach or are even aware of (unlike Brian and Slicefixer). So it's not just a "feeling," some great players actually do this in a very pronounced way (Hogan & Snead about as much as any players ever) it is very easy to spot if you look carefully, and there are certain "telltales" that are a dead giveaway (see my earlier post). Pulling as hard to the left as possible after impact is something that I work on in nearly every range session.

[anth]

Does this quick move left after impact create a fold in the left elbow (for a right hander) a lot sooner in the follow-through as opposed to a more "conventional" down-the-line swing?

[leekgolf]

I don't believe so. I think the arms go left for two reasons, the pivot and centripetal force caused by seperation.

[mikpga]

If you begin to develop the sensation that your coach is directing you towards, you will definitely start taking the left side of the course out of play. It is a great sensation to swing at it hard, knowing you're not going left!

 

I would recommend being patient with it. One thing all tour players do extremely well, is the lower body is in the process of clearing before striking the ball.

[scores]

I would not think of it as a quick move left.

 

It all has to unfold and fold that's the feeling I get!

 

I have been taking lessons and the teacher wanted me to move or swing to 10 'oclock left!!! Unfortunately he has become ill and the lessons have to be pushed back!

 

It was my initial down swing that is a tough change or plane: At this point my iron 's are straighter than ever and my tee ball longer but not so straight but that's why I went for lessons.

Oh controlling distance is a lot easier with trajectory!! as well.

 

The reason is I feel this method is better : I have more of the golf club and less of me(my body in the way) through the swing.

 

I ll tell you I have taken my lumps making the change but its working out! I can see on my playing competitors faces each weak.. first they laughted now they are very quiet!!

 

the best of luck!!!

[LONG&STR8]

Does this quick move left after impact create a fold in the left elbow (for a right hander) a lot sooner in the follow-through as opposed to a more "conventional" down-the-line swing?

 

 

I think this is the feeling that you should have. Right arm folds and stays close to the body on the back swing and left arm folds and stays close to the body on the follow through. Just remember that your body made that all happen. As you get more comfortable you can work on width.

[kdbama7]

Very interested in this, but how do you swing left without the ball going left? Whenever I try this, the ball starts left and keeps going further left. What am I missing?

[leekgolf]

Very interested in this, but how do you swing left without the ball going left? Whenever I try this, the ball starts left and keeps going further left. What am I missing?

 

 

Your hands are even with or behind the clubhead at impact. To do this successfully, you must have a flat (or even arched) left wrist (if you swing right-handed) and the clubhead must trail the hands at impact.

[leekgolf]

Here is the backswing for this concept. See the attachment.

[leekgolf]

Here is the downswing

[LONG&STR8]

Very interested in this, but how do you swing left without the ball going left? Whenever I try this, the ball starts left and keeps going further left. What am I missing?

 

 

Think of the arc on the downswing as being in-to square-to in. The only way it goes left with a square clubhead is if is your arc is out-to square-to in (over the top) which means your back swing/downs swing was incorrect.

 

If you hear words like this than they aren't teaching this swing

 

swing down the line

don't bring the club too far inside on the backswing

don't let your hands come across your chest

impact position should look like your address position

tilt away from the ball

rotate your hands at impact

 

If you want to learn this swing and the instructor/instruction is saying any of this, don't keep reading/listening.

[leekgolf]

Very interested in this, but how do you swing left without the ball going left? Whenever I try this, the ball starts left and keeps going further left. What am I missing?

 

 

Think of the arc on the downswing as being in-to square-to in. The only way it goes left with a square clubhead is if is your arc is out-to square-to in (over the top) which means your back swing/downs swing was incorrect.

 

If you hear words like this than they aren't teaching this swing

 

swing down the line

don't bring the club too far inside on the backswing

don't let your hands come across your chest

impact position should look like your address position

tilt away from the ball

rotate your hands at impact

 

If you want to learn this swing and the instructor/instruction is saying any of this, don't keep reading/listening.

 

I disagree with much of the above:

 

It's a huge mistake to let the club get too far inside on the backswing.

You MUST have axis tilt (tilt away from the ball).

You hands should swivel after impact.

 

You sound like you are a stack and tilt guy.

[tbyeaton0627]

Very interested in this, but how do you swing left without the ball going left? Whenever I try this, the ball starts left and keeps going further left. What am I missing?

 

 

Think of the arc on the downswing as being in-to square-to in. The only way it goes left with a square clubhead is if is your arc is out-to square-to in (over the top) which means your back swing/downs swing was incorrect.

 

If you hear words like this than they aren't teaching this swing

 

swing down the line

don't bring the club too far inside on the backswing

don't let your hands come across your chest

impact position should look like your address position

tilt away from the ball

rotate your hands at impact

 

If you want to learn this swing and the instructor/instruction is saying any of this, don't keep reading/listening.

 

I disagree with much of the above:

 

It's a huge mistake to let the club get too far inside on the backswing.

You MUST have axis tilt (tilt away from the ball).

You hands should swivel after impact.

 

You sound like you are a stack and tilt guy.

 

leek i think hes saying dont flip the hands AT impact but they do swivel after impact, which way are talking about tilting ...we tilting, towards the target or away from the target...

[LONG&STR8]

Not a stack and tilt guy but there are similarities in that that is also a one plane swing. My hands are passive through the hitting zone so there is no manipulation on my side to "swivel" anything. My turn through the ball gets my arms and of course my hands over and I don't have any tilt away with my spine. I'm more of a "straight and long" guy. :beruo:

[wkuo3]

hoganfan924, bravo!

[gentles]

Hoganfan, nice work. Played in a junior comp yesterday and shot 72 and won best gross on a 7000 yard course, which is a good effort for me. This theory seems so much simpler that my old ways, yet the results are so much more consistent. No wonder slicefixer has been so successful.

[hoganfan924]

Very interested in this, but how do you swing left without the ball going left? Whenever I try this, the ball starts left and keeps going further left. What am I missing?

 

Prerequisites to the move left are a proper backswing plane, and sequencing of the downswing motion. If you start down with the hands, forget it, you will pull the ball. The move left has to be led by the body pivot, not the hands. The hands must remain passive.

 

If you have a good clubhead path through impact but are hooking it, your hands are still turning over or your grip is too strong. A good checkpoint if you have this problem is to look for the clubhead positon in the DTL view Just as it reappears under the left shoulder. If the toe has turned down, (pointing left) your hands are still actively turning the club over. For players that do this and hook the ball, a good drill is "open the clubface after impact," where you feel as if you are actually opening the face after impact. Do that and try to hit a straight shot and it can help your sequencing and getting your right side through the ball better. It can be very effective for some players. When I first started using this drill a few years ago, it was one of those 'light bulb' moments that completely changed my thinking about the correct action of the hands and body in the swing. Then last year I got a DVD of Moe Norman hitting balls at a driving range and I noticed that he actually used this move in every one of his regular swings (not as a drill)! In the DVD, Moe states, "the secret of the game has left the game!" The guy filming asks, "what's that?" Moe replies "Passive hands!" and he goes on and on about how the toe of his club never passes the heel, how "I don't even need a toe, it's like it's not there!" and "Hogan understood, he did the same thing."