Pinehurst/chapman format question

[SNIPERBBB]

Situation yesterday in our ryder cup tournament yesterday. 

 

One member of the side hits his tee ball into the hazard, the other is in the rough. Does the other play the third stroke after the drop or does that constitute them choosing that ball is the ball they'll finish out on. In normal alternate shot the order doesn't change. 

 

Same question with both players tee shots going into the hazard and having to take a drop.

 

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Situation yesterday in our ryder cup tournament yesterday. 

 

One member of the side hits his tee ball into the hazard, the other is in the rough. Does the other play the third stroke after the drop or does that constitute them choosing that ball is the ball they'll finish out on. In normal alternate shot the order doesn't change. 

 

Same question with both players tee shots going into the hazard and having to take a drop.

 

HHmmmm, I think that's something of a gray area, considering that there aren't any specific rules for Chapman from the USGA/R&A.  I found one club's set of rules that require each ball to be HIT two times, regardless of penalty strokes.  So in your example you'd have one ball lying three (the A-hazard-B ball), and one lying two (the B-A ball), before you have to make the choice of which to hole out with.  Here's that reference:

http://pdmc.club/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/chapman-Rules-procedure-for-play.pdf

I couldn't find any other reference that spells it out this clearly, but I think its fair to ask the Committee to make it clear before you start.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

One member of the side (A) hits his tee ball into the hazard, the other (B) is in the rough.

 

A has to play B's ball from the rough or take a unplayable etc with penalty

B has to play A's ball from the penalty area or take the penalty drop and play it.

 

After those shots, the partners compare the results. They select the 'best' ball and pick up the other. Whoever played the last shot with that ball doesn't play it this time. Alternate shots from there.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Newby

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, Newby said:

A has to play B's ball from the rough or take a unplayable etc with penalty

B has to play A's ball from the penalty area or take the penalty drop and play it.

 

After those shots, the partners compare the results. They select the 'best' ball and pick up the other. Whoever played the last shot with that ball doesn't play it this time. Alternate shots from there.

I agree, but do you have a source for this?

[Newby]

13 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I agree, but do you have a source for this?

Many. But try these:

 

https://18birdies.com/clubhouse/golf-instruction/chapman-pinehurst-golf-tournament-format/

 

https://www.liveabout.com/what-is-the-pinehurst-system-1560951

 

https://spgc.info/TournFormats.php

 

The following is common to all

In the Chapman System, both players on a side tee off, then they switch balls. Player A plays Player B's drive, and vice-versa.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Newby

[davep043]

26 minutes ago, Newby said:

Many. But try these:

 

https://18birdies.com/clubhouse/golf-instruction/chapman-pinehurst-golf-tournament-format/

 

https://www.liveabout.com/what-is-the-pinehurst-system-1560951

 

https://spgc.info/TournFormats.php

 

The following is common to all

In the Chapman System, both players on a side tee off, then they switch balls. Player A plays Player B's drive, and vice-versa.

Thanks, I did look at the first two there.  The only source that I could find what explicitly discussed penalty strokes the one I cited.  The others don't mention penalty strokes, but I agree that the same procedure is implied.  The players each make a stroke from the tee, and each make another stroke at the other player's ball, regardless of whether a penalty stroke is applied.

[sui generis]

33 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Thanks, I did look at the first two there.  The only source that I could find what explicitly discussed penalty strokes the one I cited.  The others don't mention penalty strokes, but I agree that the same procedure is implied.  The players each make a stroke from the tee, and each make another stroke at the other player's ball, regardless of whether a penalty stroke is applied.

 

Rule 22, Foursomes, might be helpful.

[davep043]

Just now, sui generis said:

 

Rule 22, Foursomes, might be helpful.

Yes, I considered that.  In Chapman, the team must decide which single ball to play after two strokes at each ball.  As I understood @SNIPERBBB, the question is whether the penalty stroke counts as one of those two strokes, or whether the decision comes only after two "physical" strokes have been taken.  It makes sense that it is two physical strokes, but most sources don't specifically say that.

[SNIPERBBB]

 

11 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Yes, I considered that.  In Chapman, the team must decide which single ball to play after two strokes at each ball.  As I understood @SNIPERBBB, the question is whether the penalty stroke counts as one of those two strokes, or whether the decision comes only after two "physical" strokes have been taken.  It makes sense that it is two physical strokes, but most sources don't specifically say that.

Correct, order isn't the problem...it's whether you're stick with playing the penaltied ball if you choose to play it or do you still get the choice after both players make their  second strokes. We offered to still give them the choice but they weren't certain of they could. Ended up winning 3&1. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by SNIPERBBB

[Newby]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

Rule 22, Foursomes, might be helpful.

The key points from which are:

 

On each hole, the partners must make each stroke for the side in alternating order:

Any penalty strokes for the side do not affect the partners’ alternating order of play.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Newby