Ruling Help...bunker, plugged lies, and ants

[blaird]

Ok need some help...tried to look it up but couldnt find anything...heres the situation...

 

Buddy is in a bunker, hits his shot but ball disappears. We find the ball plugged in the face but its not in the bunker or is it. It was plugged in the hard part above the sand but under the grass on the lip. As he is looking at the ball/shot some ants start falling off the lip into the bunker right above where he would have to hit his shot. 

 

Question 1...would his ball still be considered to be in the bunker? I argued yes, but am not too concerned w/ that ruling

 

Question 2...if his ball is deemed in the bunker, does he get free relief from the ants? I argued no here bc its a hazard but am not too up to date since the changes to terms/penalty areas. I always thought if you were in a hazard you couldnt get relief from anything, such as a pond and your ball is near an alligator or in a ditch but a snake is close to the ball, I always thought it had to be played as it lies. 

 

I tried to look it up during the round but couldnt get a straight answer really. I kind of found two different things one backing him up one backing me up. I just figured id check it out and see what the actual ruling is. 

[Mr. Bean]

Q1: 

 

EDIT2: No, sorry, that was for a Penalty Area, not for a bunker. See Sawgrass' post for correct answer.

 

Q2: Unless we are talking about fire ants there is no free relief from the ants, bunker or no bunker.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Sawgrass]

If the ball was embedded in a grass wall, and there was no Local Rule limiting free relief for embedded balls in the General Area, then the embedded ball was eligible for free relief AS LONG AS there is some General Area in which to drop which is no closer to the hole and within 1 club length of a spot immediately behind the embedded point.  Otherwise you can’t even dig it out unless you decide to operate under some other rule such as unplayable ball.

 

As far as the ants go, if they are dangerous fire ants, free relief is available as well.  No free relief for non-dangerous ants.  

[blaird]

14 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

If the ball was embedded in a grass wall, and there was no Local Rule limiting free relief for embedded balls in the General Area, then the embedded ball was eligible for free relief AS LONG AS there is some General Area in which to drop which is no closer to the hole and within 1 club length of a spot immediately behind the embedded point.  Otherwise you can’t even dig it out unless you decide to operate under some other rule such as unplayable ball.

 

As far as the ants go, if they are dangerous fire ants, free relief is available as well.  No free relief for non-dangerous ants.  

 

Think he took the relief one club back and kept it in the bunker.

 

So it has to be fire ants/dangerous ants? And would this include other dangerous animals such as a snake next to his ball in the bunker? Does he have to keep it in the bunker? And does this apply to penalty areas as well? Such as hit it in the penalty area but can play it but it is near an alligator or snake would I get relief? Sorry for the million questions, just trying to get a firm grasp on this ruling. 

[Newby]

16.2 Dangerous Animal Condition

a. When Relief Is Allowed

A “dangerous animal condition” exists when a dangerous animal (such as poisonous snakes, stinging bees, alligators, fire ants or bears) near a ball could cause serious physical injury to the player if he or she had to play the ball as it lies.

A player may take relief under Rule 16.2b from interference by a dangerous animal condition no matter where his or her ball is on the course, except that relief is not allowed:

• When playing the ball as it lies is clearly unreasonable because of something other than the dangerous animal condition (for example, when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush), or

• When interference exists only because the player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances.

b. Relief for Dangerous Animal Condition

When there is interference by a dangerous animal condition:

(1) When Ball Is Anywhere Except Penalty Area. The player may take relief under Rule 16.1b, c or d, depending on whether the ball is in the general area, in a bunker or on the putting green.

(2) When Ball Is in Penalty Area. The player may take free relief or penalty relief:

• Free Relief: Playing from Inside Penalty Area. The player may take free relief under Rule 16.1b, except that the nearest point of complete relief and the relief area must be in the penalty area.

• Penalty Relief: Playing from Outside Penalty Area.

  • The player may take penalty relief under Rule 17.1d.

  • If there is interference by a dangerous animal condition where the ball would be played after taking this penalty relief outside the penalty area, the player may take further relief under (1) without additional penalty.

For purposes of this Rule, the nearest point of complete relief means the nearest point (not nearer the hole) where the dangerous animal condition does not exist.

Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Rule 16.2: General Penalty Under Rule 14.7a.

[Newby]

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=16&subrulenum=2

[Sawgrass]

4 minutes ago, blaird said:

 

Think he took the relief one club back and kept it in the bunker.

 

So it has to be fire ants/dangerous ants? And would this include other dangerous animals such as a snake next to his ball in the bunker? Does he have to keep it in the bunker? And does this apply to penalty areas as well? Such as hit it in the penalty area but can play it but it is near an alligator or snake would I get relief? Sorry for the million questions, just trying to get a firm grasp on this ruling. 

The rules regarding dangerous animals are a bit complex, I would read all of rule 16.2 to get a full grasp.  In general you get free relief from dangerous animals anywhere on the course, but the relief areas are sometimes severely restricted (depending on where your ball originally resides).

 

As to the embedded ball situation you described, playing from the bunker was not allowed (unless the ball first came to rest in the general area and later was moved by natural forces back in the bunker).  As such, the player played from a wrong place and gets the general penalty, we can guess no “serious breach.”

[blaird]

Thank you Newby and Sawgrass...I had tried to look up what Newby posted during the round but didnt have the time or patience for my phone to load. Pretty much answered all the questions I had...yall guys are good!!

[Mr. Bean]

20 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

As to the embedded ball situation you described, playing from the bunker was not allowed (unless the ball first came to rest in the general area and later was moved by natural forces back in the bunker).  As such, the player played from a wrong place and gets the general penalty, we can guess no “serious breach.”

 

Maybe I have missed something here but what was the material of the bunker face?

 

EDIT: Ok, got it! It was dirt, not sand.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[rogolf]

58 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

If the ball was embedded in a grass wall, and there was no Local Rule limiting free relief for embedded balls in the General Area, then the embedded ball was eligible for free relief AS LONG AS there is some General Area in which to drop which is no closer to the hole and within 1 club length of a spot immediately behind the embedded point.  Otherwise you can’t even dig it out unless you decide to operate under some other rule such as unplayable ball.

 

As far as the ants go, if they are dangerous fire ants, free relief is available as well.  No free relief for non-dangerous ants.  

My understanding, which may be the same as what you've said, is that if the reference point, immediately behind the ball, is in the general area, the player is entitled to free relief.  He would try to drop in the relief area (which includes the reference point).  If the ball did not come to rest after the second drop, he would try to place it where it struck the ground on the second drop.  If the ball would not come to rest at that spot after two attempts, he would find the nearest spot in the general area, no nearer the hole, where it would come to rest (Rule 14.2e).  This could be well beyond one club-length from the reference point.

[Sawgrass]

17 minutes ago, rogolf said:

My understanding, which may be the same as what you've said, is that if the reference point, immediately behind the ball, is in the general area, the player is entitled to free relief.  He would try to drop in the relief area (which includes the reference point).  If the ball did not come to rest after the second drop, he would try to place it where it struck the ground on the second drop.  If the ball would not come to rest at that spot after two attempts, he would find the nearest spot in the general area, no nearer the hole, where it would come to rest (Rule 14.2e).  This could be well beyond one club-length from the reference point.

Yes, we agree, I was referring to this Clarification when I commented:

 

Rule 16.3b:

1. Player Not Always Allowed to Take Embedded Ball Relief:

If a player’s ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area, the player is not allowed to take free relief under Rule 16.3b.

For example, free relief is not allowed if:

- a ball is embedded at the very base of the lip, wall or face above a bunker,

- the spot right behind the ball is in the bunker and

- within one club-length of and not nearer the hole from that reference point, there is no part of the relief area that is in the general area.

 

[Mr. Bean]

50 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Yes, we agree, I was referring to this Clarification when I commented:

 

Rule 16.3b:

1. Player Not Always Allowed to Take Embedded Ball Relief:

If a player’s ball is embedded in the general area but neither the reference point nor any part of the course within one club-length of the reference point is in the general area, the player is not allowed to take free relief under Rule 16.3b.

For example, free relief is not allowed if:

- a ball is embedded at the very base of the lip, wall or face above a bunker,

- the spot right behind the ball is in the bunker and

- within one club-length of and not nearer the hole from that reference point, there is no part of the relief area that is in the general area.

 

 

If a ball is embedded in the grass face of a bunker, does that 'behind' mean horizontal or vertical location? That is, behind is not the same as below?

 

I am just trying to picture a situation where a ball is embedded in the face and the face around the ball in every direction is larger than 1 cl. Does that mean there is no free relief as per 16.3b ? After all, that face IS part of the General Area.

 

EDIT: I must be tired. It is only now I noticed the word 'and'... Forget everything I wrote 🤣

Edited April 16, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

As to the embedded ball situation you described, playing from the bunker was not allowed (unless the ball first came to rest in the general area and later was moved by natural forces back in the bunker).  As such, the player played from a wrong place and gets the general penalty, we can guess no “serious breach.”

 

This is one of the things that drive some golfers nutz.

 

A player is entitled to free relief for an embedded ball in the general area.

 

But NOT in a bunker. Huh ? Why should that be ? 99+% of golfers would rather be in ANY part of the general area than a bunker but because there's no general area available and the only spot available is IN the bunker, he does so AND gets a penalty besides.

 

So from free relief to a "worse" lie AND a 2 shot penalty.

 

Maybe someone could explain the logic behind this ?

 

TIA

 

Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

[Mr. Bean]

23 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

This is one of the things that drive some golfers nutz.

 

A player is entitled to free relief for an embedded ball in the general area.

 

But NOT in a bunker. Huh ? Why should that be ? 99+% of golfers would rather be in ANY part of the general area than a bunker but because there's no general area available and the only spot available is IN the bunker, he does so AND gets a penalty besides.

 

So from free relief to a "worse" lie AND a 2 shot penalty.

 

Maybe someone could explain the logic behind this ?

 

TIA

 

Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

 

We were not told whether there was a relief area available or not. The assumption is that there was, thus the player took relief in a wrong area of the course. The logic is that once you take a relief on a certain area of the course you need to remain on that same area.

 

Iif the player had taken an unplayable ball he would have got the one penalty stroke for unplayable. That may be the only option for a player as explained above (Rule 16.3b).

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Sawgrass]

40 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

This is one of the things that drive some golfers nutz.

 

A player is entitled to free relief for an embedded ball in the general area.

 

But NOT in a bunker. Huh ? Why should that be ? 99+% of golfers would rather be in ANY part of the general area than a bunker but because there's no general area available and the only spot available is IN the bunker, he does so AND gets a penalty besides.

 

So from free relief to a "worse" lie AND a 2 shot penalty.

 

Maybe someone could explain the logic behind this ?

 

TIA

 

Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

You’re getting free relief, I don’t find it odd that you must thereafter play from the same area of the course.  Another (reasonable) example is getting free relief from a green side sprinkler head, but not being allowed to drop on the putting green. 
 

Useful consistency IMO, and for the record, while I’m aware of the potential problem of not being allowed to take the relief, I’ve never seen that happen.

[antip]

4 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

This is one of the things that drive some golfers nutz.

 

A player is entitled to free relief for an embedded ball in the general area.

 

But NOT in a bunker. Huh ? Why should that be ? 99+% of golfers would rather be in ANY part of the general area than a bunker but because there's no general area available and the only spot available is IN the bunker, he does so AND gets a penalty besides.

 

So from free relief to a "worse" lie AND a 2 shot penalty.

 

Maybe someone could explain the logic behind this ?

 

TIA

 

Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

Wrong place always get the general penalty - or worse (if serious breach). And I don't have a problem with that. There is no requirement for a player to incur the general penalty even if there is no free relief area in the general area - the player can take unplayable for one stroke penalty if the ball cannot be played as lies.

[nsxguy]

14 hours ago, antip said:

Wrong place always get the general penalty - or worse (if serious breach). And I don't have a problem with that. There is no requirement for a player to incur the general penalty even if there is no free relief area in the general area - the player can take unplayable for one stroke penalty if the ball cannot be played as lies.

 

I'm not talking about "wrong place" and the penalty for same.

 

I'm talking about getting free relief from the general area for the embedded ball (wall of the bunker).

 

But because free relief cannot be gotten, dropping in the bunker, often a worse place than in the general area, incurs a penalty.

 

Or one must take unplayable penalty relief even though permitted to take free relief.

 

I'm trying to understand the logic behind this.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

I'm not talking about "wrong place" and the penalty for same.

 

I'm talking about getting free relief from the general area for the embedded ball (wall of the bunker).

 

But because free relief cannot be gotten, dropping in the bunker, often a worse place than in the general area, incurs a penalty. That is only normal in the Rules. If you cannot play your ball as it lies and there is no free relief available you must take a one stroke penalty for unplayable ball or S&D. And in the OP type of case you do not have to drop in the bunker if you take unplayable ball, you just back up outside the bunker (BOL).

 

Or one must take unplayable penalty relief even though permitted to take free relief. Why? If you may take a free relief then you are free to take it. The exception in R16.3b does NOT offer a free relief.

 

I'm trying to understand the logic behind this. I hope you will as there is a very sound logic behind it.

 

See my answers in bold.

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[4x4GGG]

Everyones talking about where to drop, but I keep wondering if it's OK to move your ball because you don't want to kill the ants now swarming on it? 

Edited April 17, 2021 by 4x4GGG

[antip]

2 minutes ago, 4x4GGG said:

Everyones talking about where to drop, but I keep wondering if it's OK to move your ball because you don't want to kill the ants now swarming on it? 

The game of golf is not ant friendly and the rules do not come to their rescue. Perhaps that is why there are fewer golf courses in Buddhist countries?

[antip]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

I'm not talking about "wrong place" and the penalty for same.

 

I'm talking about getting free relief from the general area for the embedded ball (wall of the bunker).

 

But because free relief cannot be gotten, dropping in the bunker, often a worse place than in the general area, incurs a penalty.

 

Or one must take unplayable penalty relief even though permitted to take free relief.

 

I'm trying to understand the logic behind this.

There are a range of circumstances where the potential availability of a relief rule does not translate into a guarantee of relief. Sometimes a relief area does not exist, sometimes a stroke in the defined relief area is physically impossible. The ultimate fall-back is unplayable ball and sometimes the only version of that is S&D. Is this logical? You decide.

[Mr. Bean]

30 minutes ago, 4x4GGG said:

Everyones talking about where to drop, but I keep wondering if it's OK to move your ball because you don't want to kill the ants now swarming on it? 

 

You can always take an unplayable to an area where there are no ants. Your call.

[4x4GGG]

27 minutes ago, antip said:

The game of golf is not ant friendly and the rules do not come to their rescue. Perhaps that is why there are fewer golf courses in Buddhist countries?

I'm not arguing with you, at all. 

 

But does the rule bend based on the size of the animal? Reality... can't kill plant in your back swing but killing ants on your ball OK? What if it's a Lady Bug? A sweet pretty butterfly? Lol... the list goes on. 

[Sawgrass]

13 minutes ago, 4x4GGG said:

I'm not arguing with you, at all. 

 

But does the rule bend based on the size of the animal? Reality... can't kill plant in your back swing but killing ants on your ball OK? What if it's a Lady Bug? A sweet pretty butterfly? Lol... the list goes on. 

No violation for striking (killing?) a plant in your backswing as long as you complete the stroke.

 

Anyway, if you start allowing free relief every time an insect is near your ball, virtually no one would have to play a ball as it lies.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, 4x4GGG said:

I'm not arguing with you, at all. 

 

But does the rule bend based on the size of the animal? Reality... can't kill plant in your back swing but killing ants on your ball OK? What if it's a Lady Bug? A sweet pretty butterfly? Lol... the list goes on. 

 

Maybe it would be better if you did not play golf at all. With every stroke from the fairway or rough you damage vegetation and kill small insects and other very small creatures. Knowing this you sure cannot sleep at night...

[4x4GGG]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Maybe it would be better if you did not play golf at all. With every stroke from the fairway or rough you damage vegetation and kill small insects and other very small creatures. Knowing this you sure cannot sleep at night...

Wow. Just... ok.