Jump to content

Help! Solid movement, but no consistency


Recommended Posts

Hi all,

 

I am new here trying to find answers and please excuse me if my explanations etc. do not suffice and please do not hesitate to be open.

 

I am a HCP 2-3 player and most of the coaches, I was seeing, are convinced that my swing is rock solid and should have potential for way lower numbers.

Obviously, this is not the case and I am looking for answers that might enlighten me and really appreciate all the potential input in advance.

 

Backswing:

 

[media]

[/media]

 

Front:

 

[media]

[/media]

 

Unfortunately, my swing fails relatively often without knowing the reason and the following swing thoughts are accompanying me over the last few years:

 

- improving the transition from backswing to follow through by avoiding not dropping the club too much

- shallow take-away

- getting the hands in depth at the end of the backswing

- attempt to „Swing“ only with the larges muscles/body to leave out any hand/arm activity

 

Bad shots:

 

  • Shanks 
  • Pull hook and push slices (divots indicate high hands during the impact)
  • No control over the clubface 
  • Bad pitching due to the dropping club in the transition

 

I would highly appreciate any thoughts on my swing as I feel stuck to be honest and close to quitting the game as I do not progress at all anymore…

 

All the best from Germany,

 

Rough Ael

 

 

Edited by Rough Ael
Videos added as file
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Rough Ael changed the title to Help! Solid movement, but no consistency
Posted (edited)

Good morning/evening Valtiel,

 

First of all I have to say thank you for your time taken to write such a detailed analysis of my swing, very impressive and appreciate your input a lot.

THANK you!!!!!!!

 

Let me try to give you some of my thoughts:

 

1. Did coaches work on sequencing in the past?

The only sequencing part of previous lessons was to work on rhythm, which now makes sense to me. I would assume that this only cures the symptoms and not the problem after reading through your analysis.

 

2. Hip work

All my coaches had and have the opinion that my hip rotation is enough and is not causing the problem. I often pointed out that there must be an underlying problem of my consistency, but the hip rotation has never been brought up to be honest.

I tried to improve the hip rotation for a while, but activating it is quite a problem for me.


After having read your analysis, I must say that I can see the correlation between the hip and bad shots quite obviously, but are there any useful drills/work-outs to activate the hips in a proper way?

I am leading my swing mainly by my arms (this is why I try to swing with the big muscles to leave out active hands/arms) and my lower body is more less „dead“ and difficult to trigger.

 

I a bit anxious that I seem to be like a person, who gets offered an inch, but takes a mile and do not want to max out your patience and time…..

 

I am very grateful for your input, which I have not received from any previous coach, and looking forward how this change influence my swing.

 

Warmest regards,

Rough Ael

Edited by Rough Ael
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree about the hips. Using a freak like DJ to 

On 7/21/2021 at 11:28 PM, Valtiel said:

Most, if not all if the "Bad Shot" items you listed can be explained by what we do see happening in your fill swing, a sequencing issue. Did any of the coaches you saw video your swing and slow it down? Your swing superficially is very nice, but nice swings can be deceiving as there can still be underlying fundamental issues. I mostly want to focus on transition here:

RoughAELTrans.gif.376405717f5f0cf1bc00de9c8634bcbb.gif DJTrans.gif.2a35a794a0b3435457fb5480659bd667.gif

From the top, your hands and hips come down together with very little hip movement overall. This creates a problem since both power and consistency are derived from the proper sequence of the hips kicking off the downswing, and without the separation created by the hips going first, you start using your hands and arms more which are FAR less consistent and reliable. DJ's hips by comparison have rotated twice as much as yours by a similar point in the downswing. You don't need to go THAT far, but I use DJ because he is a very clear example of very fundamentally correct sequencing. 

RoughAELTrans2.gif.45d167d13b545845aa43d3fed8002e3a.gif DJTrans2.gif.e15f0d2dd6ededc8a720b20c54c36a01.gif

Continuing down we see that your "slow" hips have not sped up, only rotating probably about 10-15* degrees in the same window that DJ's rotate about 45*. You've now run out of time to get your hips clear of the ball and you start extending early and losing hip depth. This results in a poor impact position:

RoughAELImpact.gif.ad6a4ed1b98da53b399a5cdac0198a99.gif DJImpact.gif.07c595fb095a245ac0c92630197ab999.gif

At impact we see your hips basically square to the ball, your hands have raise up, and your weight is more up towards your toes as your lower body has moved towards the ball. DJ's impact position shows massive hip clearing and depth, hands returning to basically the same position as address, and weight moving towards the target.

The reason this is all so important is because as your hands/arms catch up to your lower body, they will want to roll over. You can feel this yourself by taking an iron and making little half swings with some speed while trying to keep the clubface square while keeping your hips as still as possible. What you will likely feel is the club wants to shut in hurry and requires a lot of unnatural manipulation with your right hand to stop it. Now do the same drill but with your hips held open instead and notice how much easier it is to keep the clubface square. This is just a small way of feeling what happens at and approaching impact when your hips haven't gotten out of the way. 

2132044784_ScreenShot2021-07-21at1_32_00PM.png.5eee451f3a1260e0cfb682ce781c51ff.png

In this last image we see the result of what I was describing above. On the left, DJ's right hand is still under/on the side of the of the club which is overall working to the left, whereas yours has rolled over the top and shut the face more while working more out towards the target. 

Usually I agree  with you, dude, but on this occasion I think you're sending the OP down a path that'll screw his swing up. His hips are absolutely fine! Focusing on speeding them up will mess his timing up and create focus on a part of the body that is working well. Nobody should be putting emphasis on the hips in the swing - there just isn't time to focus there. 

The hips are not a problem. 

 

The only slight issue I see is that his backside is too far out at address and that's causing his weight to be too far back. If he adjusts that he'll have a more dynamic move. I think his bad shots are mental. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I disagree about the hips. Using a freak like DJ to 

Usually I agree  with you, dude, but on this occasion I think you're sending the OP down a path that'll screw his swing up. His hips are absolutely fine! Focusing on speeding them up will mess his timing up and create focus on a part of the body that is working well. Nobody should be putting emphasis on the hips in the swing - there just isn't time to focus there. 

The hips are not a problem. 

 

The only slight issue I see is that his backside is too far out at address and that's causing his weight to be too far back. If he adjusts that he'll have a more dynamic move. I think his bad shots are mental. 

Hi Dean,

 

Thank you for bring up the backside, but may I ask you what exactly do you mean with addressing the ball by having the backside too far out? Should the setup be a bit more upright to shift the weight to the middle of the stance?

 

All the best,

 

Rough Ael

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Rough Ael said:

Hi Dean,

 

Thank you for bring up the backside, but may I ask you what exactly do you mean with addressing the ball by having the backside too far out? Should the setup be a bit more upright to shift the weight to the middle of the stance?

 

All the best,

 

Rough Ael

 

Take a look at almost every tour pro (with the exception of Keegan Bradley!) and you'll see that they setup with their butt line about 2 inches behind their heels. You can feel this by setting up against a wall with your heels this far away and then taking your stance. 

 

You'll feel like your weight is almost on your toes, but it'll actually be perfectly balanced - like you're ready to spring forward. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Take a look at almost every tour pro (with the exception of Keegan Bradley!) and you'll see that they setup with their butt line about 2 inches behind their heels. You can feel this by setting up against a wall with your heels this far away and then taking your stance. 

 

You'll feel like your weight is almost on your toes, but it'll actually be perfectly balanced - like you're ready to spring forward. 

Hi again,

 

thank you for the clarification of your point, much appreciated.

 

may I ask why you would avoid working on the hip rotation in the downswing?

seems to be a valid point to me although the transformation might be nasty until it has been completed.

 

I partially agree on your mental aspect, but in my opinion there must be a key influence factor for my constant inconsistency…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Rough Ael said:

Hi again,

 

thank you for the clarification of your point, much appreciated.

 

may I ask why you would avoid working on the hip rotation in the downswing?

seems to be a valid point to me although the transformation might be nasty until it has been completed.

 

I partially agree on your mental aspect, but in my opinion there must be a key influence factor for my constant inconsistency…

Because your hips are working perfectly well. Simple as that. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I disagree about the hips. Using a freak like DJ to 

Usually I agree  with you, dude, but on this occasion I think you're sending the OP down a path that'll screw his swing up. His hips are absolutely fine! Focusing on speeding them up will mess his timing up and create focus on a part of the body that is working well. Nobody should be putting emphasis on the hips in the swing - there just isn't time to focus there. 

The hips are not a problem. 

 

The only slight issue I see is that his backside is too far out at address and that's causing his weight to be too far back. If he adjusts that he'll have a more dynamic move. I think his bad shots are mental. 

 

The intent behind using DJ as an example was as an exaggeration as I mentioned you don't need do go nearly as far/extreme as he does. I fail to see how the OP's sequencing isn't an issue here given that the hands/hips are firing together and his impact position is blocked out by square hips. There is nothing mental about the inconsistency that position will cause, and whether his hips speed up or the upper body slows down/waits longer, that separation needs to come from somewhere. Do you disagree? 

  • Like 2

Taylormade SIM 10.5* Diamana X'17 70TX || Taylormade SIM 9* Diamana X'17 70X
Taylormade SIM Ti V2 15* Kuro Kage Proto 80TX || Taylormade SIM Ti V2 17* Kuro Kage 80XTS 
Taylormade M5 19* Tensei Pro White 90TX || TItleist TS21* Kuro Kage 100XTS 
Taylormade RSI UDI 20* Project X PXi 7.0 // Kuro Kage 100XTS 
Hybrid  
Bridgestone J40 DPC 4i-7i 23*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0

Taylormade Milled Grind Raw 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot || Taylormade Spider X Navy Slant

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 

The intent behind using DJ as an example was as an exaggeration as I mentioned you don't need do go nearly as far/extreme as he does. I fail to see how the OP's sequencing isn't an issue here given that the hands/hips are firing together and his impact position is blocked out by square hips. There is nothing mental about the inconsistency that position will cause, and whether his hips speed up or the upper body slows down/waits longer, that separation needs to come from somewhere. Do you disagree? 

I think you're seeing a problem that doesn't exist, my friend. I clearly do disagree. I think there's a good reason that no pro has noted an issue with his hips. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I think you're seeing a problem that doesn't exist, my friend. I clearly do disagree. I think there's a good reason that no pro has noted an issue with his hips. 


No worries there, i'm just confused given that the improper sequencing -> arms outracing the hips -> square hips at impact w/ high degree of clubface rotation (flip) is something that we obviously see a lot of here, and this feels like a slightly less severe but still similar version of that. The aforementioned shanks + bad two way miss support this as well. I agree with what you said about address position depth, but the only better players I have seen (mini tour level) that have square hips at address are VERY smooth swingers that are also equally very good with their hands (and obviously at shanking and hooking/blocking). I fail to see how a simple posture change at address (while likely a good thing) and a suggestion that is all mental will address his consistency issues, especially when proper sequencing will stabilize the clubface. 

Edited by Valtiel
  • Like 1

Taylormade SIM 10.5* Diamana X'17 70TX || Taylormade SIM 9* Diamana X'17 70X
Taylormade SIM Ti V2 15* Kuro Kage Proto 80TX || Taylormade SIM Ti V2 17* Kuro Kage 80XTS 
Taylormade M5 19* Tensei Pro White 90TX || TItleist TS21* Kuro Kage 100XTS 
Taylormade RSI UDI 20* Project X PXi 7.0 // Kuro Kage 100XTS 
Hybrid  
Bridgestone J40 DPC 4i-7i 23*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0

Taylormade Milled Grind Raw 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot || Taylormade Spider X Navy Slant

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


No worries there, i'm just confused given that the improper sequencing -> arms outracing the hips -> square hips at impact w/ high degree of clubface rotation (flip) is something that we obviously see a lot of here, and this feels like a slightly less severe but still similar version of that. The aforementioned shanks + bad two way miss support this as well. I agree with what you said about address position depth, but the only better players I have seen (mini tour level) that have square hips at address are VERY smooth swingers that are also equally very good with their hands (and obviously at shanking and hooking/blocking). I fail to see how a simple posture change at address (while likely a good thing) and a suggestion that is all mental will address his consistency issues, especially when proper sequencing will stabilize the clubface. 

Point taken. I think that the posture change will allow his body to work better and that might lead to his hips opening up at impact a bit, but it's not critical. In fact, apart from the slight goat hump caused by his posture, his hips move almost the same as Lee Westwood's. 

 

I strongly suspect that the posture change will cascade through the swing, and it's a lot easier to try. 🙂

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Point taken. I think that the posture change will allow his body to work better and that might lead to his hips opening up at impact a bit, but it's not critical. In fact, apart from the slight goat hump caused by his posture, his hips move almost the same as Lee Westwood's. 

 

I strongly suspect that the posture change will cascade through the swing, and it's a lot easier to try. 🙂


I can definitely agree on that 👍

If the posture change and subsequent (hopefully) hip depth improvements also allow his hips to work better then awesome, nothing else really necessary provided that all has the positive cascading effect it should. 

Lee Westwood is an interesting comp in that you're right, his hip action is fairly similar, although I feel like there are a number of other things more inherent to him that he does that make everything work. BIG body, bent lead arm, arms staying well in front of his body, and a very "anti left" approach overall. We have also obviously seen how that formula has at times buckled under pressure, but that is getting into the weeds a bit and we'd obviously all kill for his career. 

@Rough Ael I wanted to hold off responding directly as the last thing you need is two people with competing ideas trying to help, hah! You're welcome by the way, and thank you for the additional details! I agree with Dean about the posture and hip depth adjustment and that would be an easier first step to take. If that ends up helping then you can largely disregard my suggestions, however I would definitely encourage you to look at the sequencing stuff I mentioned if it doesn't. 👍

  • Like 2

Taylormade SIM 10.5* Diamana X'17 70TX || Taylormade SIM 9* Diamana X'17 70X
Taylormade SIM Ti V2 15* Kuro Kage Proto 80TX || Taylormade SIM Ti V2 17* Kuro Kage 80XTS 
Taylormade M5 19* Tensei Pro White 90TX || TItleist TS21* Kuro Kage 100XTS 
Taylormade RSI UDI 20* Project X PXi 7.0 // Kuro Kage 100XTS 
Hybrid  
Bridgestone J40 DPC 4i-7i 23*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0

Taylormade Milled Grind Raw 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot || Taylormade Spider X Navy Slant

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


I can definitely agree on that 👍

If the posture change and subsequent (hopefully) hip depth improvements also allow his hips to work better then awesome, nothing else really necessary provided that all has the positive cascading effect it should. 

Lee Westwood is an interesting comp in that you're right, his hip action is fairly similar, although I feel like there are a number of other things more inherent to him that he does that make everything work. BIG body, bent lead arm, arms staying well in front of his body, and a very "anti left" approach overall. We have also obviously seen how that formula has at times buckled under pressure, but that is getting into the weeds a bit and we'd obviously all kill for his career. 

@Rough Ael I wanted to hold off responding directly as the last thing you need is two people with competing ideas trying to help, hah! You're welcome by the way, and thank you for the additional details! I agree with Dean about the posture and hip depth adjustment and that would be an easier first step to take. If that ends up helping then you can largely disregard my suggestions, however I would definitely encourage you to look at the sequencing stuff I mentioned if it doesn't. 👍

Mutual respect, my friend. 🙏

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Mutual respect, my friend. 🙏

 

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:


I can definitely agree on that 👍

If the posture change and subsequent (hopefully) hip depth improvements also allow his hips to work better then awesome, nothing else really necessary provided that all has the positive cascading effect it should. 

Lee Westwood is an interesting comp in that you're right, his hip action is fairly similar, although I feel like there are a number of other things more inherent to him that he does that make everything work. BIG body, bent lead arm, arms staying well in front of his body, and a very "anti left" approach overall. We have also obviously seen how that formula has at times buckled under pressure, but that is getting into the weeds a bit and we'd obviously all kill for his career. 

@Rough Ael I wanted to hold off responding directly as the last thing you need is two people with competing ideas trying to help, hah! You're welcome by the way, and thank you for the additional details! I agree with Dean about the posture and hip depth adjustment and that would be an easier first step to take. If that ends up helping then you can largely disregard my suggestions, however I would definitely encourage you to look at the sequencing stuff I mentioned if it doesn't. 👍

To both of you:

 

I took the risk by posting my question about my swing here to receive ambiguous opinions…

I am very grateful to the insights of both of you and I am going go start tomorrow to try some of your ideas…I have to admit that I was under the impression that I knew my swing, but you gave me new directions to try out.


Regardless if it is going to be successful, your exchange is very interesting and points out that there is no right or wrong 😉

 

Thank you to both of you and I mean it…If you do not mind, I will keep you updated about the progress 💪

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Our picks

    • 2021 Fortinet Championship - Discussion and Links
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #1
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #2
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #3
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #4
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #5
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #6
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #7
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #8
       
       
      New Ping putter - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      New Bettinardi putters & Cover - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Ping Putters - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Odyssey putters - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Cameron putter and new ball marker - 2021 Fortinet Championship
       
       
      Sneds - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Peter Uihlein - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Charles Howell, III - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Scott Piercy - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Brandan Steele - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Mito Pereira - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Kevin Tway - WITB -2021 Fortinet Championship
      Joseph Bramlett - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
       
       
       
      • 19 replies
    • 2021 Tour Championship - Discussion and Comments
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      Odyssey putters - 2021 Tour Championship
      LA Golf putter shafts - 2021 Tour Championship
       
       
       
      • 25 replies
    • 2021 BMW Championship - Discussion and Links
      Put any questions of comments here
       
       
      2021 BMW Championship - Tuesday #1
      2021 BMW Championship - Tuesday #2
      2021 BMW Championship - Tuesday #3
      2021 BMW Championship - Tuesday #4
      2021 BMW Championship - Tuesday #5
      2021 BMW Championship - Tuesday #6
      2021 BMW Championship - Tuesday #7
       
       
      Cameron T-11 & T-11.5 putters at 2021 BMW Championship
      Mizuno Pro FliHi and 225 irons - 2021 BMW CHampionship
       
       
       
      • 18 replies
    • 2021 Ping i59 irons & Glide Forged wedges in hand comparison pics!!!
      In hand pics of the new 2021 Ping i59 irons and Glide Forged wedges...
       

       
      Ping i59 7 iron
       

       
       
      Ping i59 PW
       

       
      Ping i59 Comparison Photos

       

       

       

       
       
       
       
      PING Glide Forged Wedges

       
      Ping Glide Eye Toe Wedge
       
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 99 replies
    • 2021 The Northern Trust - Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #1
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #2
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #3
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #4
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #5
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #6
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #7
       
       
      New Cameron for JT - 2021 The Northern Trust
      New Cameron putters for Garrick Higgo - 2021 The Northern Trust
      New Odyssey putter covers - 2021 The Northern Trust
       
       
      • 6 replies

×
×
  • Create New...