D Plane Question - Why Is Face Angle Ignored?

[dsmil]

The D Plane commentary that I see seems to heavily focus on path, and the effect on the clubface direction seems to get ignored.  If we move the ball back in our stance to hit a draw, yes that should give us a more rightward path (for a RH golfer), but the clubface is also more open than it was when the ball was more forward in our stance, since the face is always closing.  Is face ignored in these D Plane conversations because the face angle direction is more stable than the path near impact?  I'm wondering if implications of D Plane on shot shapes are more complicated than what we normally read about, and whether it's highly dependent on the rate of clubface closure.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by dsmil

[PracticeSwinger]

9 minutes ago, dsmil said:

The D Plane commentary that I see seems to heavily focus on path, and the effect on the clubface direction seems to get ignored.  For an iron with a downward strike, yes that should give us a more rightward path (for a RH golfer), but isn't the clubface also more open?  Is face ignored in these D Plane conversations because the face angle direction is more stable than the path near impact?  I'm wondering if implications of D Plane on shot shapes are more complicated than what we normally read about, and whether it's highly dependent on the rate of clubface closure.

just to be clear - are you looking at the 'horizontal' face angle (open, closed) or the 'vertical' component (AoA, dynamic loft, spin loft)?... seems like they're all talked about... on open / closed - focus as been on face to path (rightfully so) and face angle at impact - to explain starting ball direction and curvature...

[dsmil]

18 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

just to be clear - are you looking at the 'horizontal' face angle (open, closed) or the 'vertical' component (AoA, dynamic loft, spin loft)?... seems like they're all talked about... on open / closed - focus as been on face to path (rightfully so) and face angle at impact - to explain starting ball direction and curvature...

 

Yes, I'm looking at horizontal face angle (open/closed).  I edited the post to try and clarify so hopefully that helps.  Yes, you'll hear that the face is more closed to path on a steep iron strike than a more neutral one (put the ball back in your stance for a draw).  But to me that assumes that the face is more stable throughout and that the path is the thing that is changing more.  If the face direction was changing more than the path, than the steep iron strike would cause a push fade.

[glk]

https://www.golfwrx.com/29138/the-d-plane/

 

 

folks often simply this to dynamic loft - aoa.   Which trackman terms spin loft.  It is an approximation and diesnt account for spin axis.  

Edited June 6, 2022 by glk

[PracticeSwinger]

35 minutes ago, dsmil said:

 

Yes, I'm looking at horizontal face angle (open/closed).  I edited the post to try and clarify so hopefully that helps.  Yes, you'll hear that the face is more closed to path on a steep iron strike than a more neutral one (put the ball back in your stance for a draw).  But to me that assumes that the face is more stable throughout and that the path is the thing that is changing more.  If the face direction was changing more than the path, than the steep iron strike would cause a push fade.

You are correct in mentioning rate of closure... generally speaking, good shots : striking the ball before low point offers an open face to the target but a closed one to the path... and vice versa : after low point, face is closed to the target but open to the path... since the clubface is always closing in reference to the target, but isn't 'closing' as fast to the path...otherwise, if the face isn't closing at all to the path, watch out for those slices right of the planet, and if it's closing like hell to the path, hello snap hooks in the parking lot...

[cav5]

Beware trying to study the D plane can seriously mess your game up

[Krt22]

It is not ignored, d-plane is used to explain what is actually happening at impact to create the resultant ball flight. What the face is doing at impact is golfer specific and in general more variable than the path.

2 minutes ago, cav5 said:

Beware trying to study the D plane can seriously mess your game up

Not understanding it can do the same, like the  guy who plays the swooping draw and says he came over the top when he hits a smoother hook left and then tries to swing more in to out on the next shot.

[Chunkitgood]

I would guess it is because hitting the ball in a descending fashion at the proper position relative to the body is more important to a good strike (using the club as designed) than orientation in a horizontal plane.

 

I personally that the big motions necessary to get the descending blow will tend to “close the face.”

 

Constantly disappointed and sometimes amazed to see instruction on the entire swing and on playing golf which neglect to mention you need to hit the ball first.  Emphasize on right/left face path just feeds into an arm swing.

 

Not familiar with d plane but seems to be corrective.

[glk]

14 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

I would guess it is because hitting the ball in a descending fashion at the proper position relative to the body is more important to a good strike (using the club as designed) than orientation in a horizontal plane.

 

I personally that the big motions necessary to get the descending blow will tend to “close the face.”

 

Constantly disappointed and sometimes amazed to see instruction on the entire swing and on playing golf which neglect to mention you need to hit the ball first.  Emphasize on right/left face path just feeds into an arm swing.

 

Not familiar with d plane but seems to be corrective.

So your commenting on something you dont understand.  
 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by glk

[Chunkitgood]

 As I said, “guessing.”  And I do understand from context that d plane is concerned with angle of attack which as I also said is commonly ignored but is more important than “face angle” which is something I do understand.  Descending blow is an essential element, “face angle” and “path” (left or right) accidental.

 

Sometimes with some things some people do not need to know too much about them to form a valid but limited opinion about them.

 

Which in this case is d plane seems to be a corrective to the tendency to ignore the not just importance but necessity of hitting the ball before the ground.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Chunkitgood

[cav5]

5 hours ago, Krt22 said:

It is not ignored, d-plane is used to explain what is actually happening at impact to create the resultant ball flight. What the face is doing at impact is golfer specific and in general more variable than the path.

Not understanding it can do the same, like the  guy who plays the swooping draw and says he came over the top when he hits a smoother hook left and then tries to swing more in to out on the next shot.

yes, my real gripe with it all as a teaching point is that its nearly impossible to match intentions/awareness to lines

[dsmil]

7 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

You are correct in mentioning rate of closure... generally speaking, good shots : striking the ball before low point offers an open face to the target but a closed one to the path... and vice versa : after low point, face is closed to the target but open to the path... since the clubface is always closing in reference to the target, but isn't 'closing' as fast to the path...otherwise, if the face isn't closing at all to the path, watch out for those slices right of the planet, and if it's closing like hell to the path, hello snap hooks in the parking lot...

Yes, it seems like we are assuming that the rate of closure of the face is less (more stable) than the path when we say “move the ball back to hit a draw” or move it forward to hit a fade. I’m wondering if this face closure/path relationship is always like this or if it’s common to have people with very fast rates of closure (exceeding path) where this advice doesn’t work.

[Chunkitgood]

It seems on investigation that face angle is subsumed into one of the two lines which define the plane.

 

https://www.thediygolfer.com/d-plane-golf/

[betarhoalphadelta]

14 hours ago, dsmil said:

Yes, it seems like we are assuming that the rate of closure of the face is less (more stable) than the path when we say “move the ball back to hit a draw” or move it forward to hit a fade. I’m wondering if this face closure/path relationship is always like this or if it’s common to have people with very fast rates of closure (exceeding path) where this advice doesn’t work.

 

IMHO the reason it may not often be prominent in the discussion of the D-plane is that face angle relative to path or relative to target line is independent of the swing plane.

 

Timing the closure of the face to impact is not always that easy. For me:

 

• My ideal shot shape with an iron is a slight push draw. So because I'm striking the ball on the descending and in->out portion of the D-plane, my path is in->out. The clubface is slightly closed to path but slightly open to target. Ball starts a little right and gently curves right back onto the target line. 
• One of my misses are a straight block. In this case the path is identical, in->out on a descending strike. The clubface is farther open to the target, and is neutral to path. So the ball starts right and doesn't curve at all. 
• My other miss is the big sweeping hook. Usually in this case the path again is in->out, but the face is usually a lot closer to exactly on target, meaning the face is then much MORE closed to the path than before, so not only does the shot start straight at the target and then curve left of it, it curves left more severely and finishes well left of the target line. 

 

I can hit all three shots with exactly the same path and descending angle of attack for the D-plane. The only difference being whether I've closed the face at the appropriate time. Now, I can also screw up the plane and bias it farther in->out or out->in, which can cause those shots to change. 

 

IMHO the value of the D-plane is that it explains to a golfer what the club should be doing during the swing. A lot of golfers get confused with the "hit down on the ball" or "need positive AoA for driver", and don't really understand that you don't have to consciously "hit down" or "hit up" in order to accomplish that. The D-plane shows you that what angle of attack and path relationship are all about is where you hit the ball on the circumference of that plane. Irons, hybrids, fairway woods off the turf, etc, should ALL be hit on the descending portion of the plane before the low point, whereas many players move the ball forward with driver so they hit the ball after the low point on the ascending portion. That's how you get negative and positive AoA, not by deliberately trying to "hit down" or "hit up".

 

 

[Krt22]

17 hours ago, cav5 said:

yes, my real gripe with it all as a teaching point is that its nearly impossible to match intentions/awareness to lines

The d-plane stuff by itself is not a teaching point, it's just a model that explains what is actually going on to create a certain ballflight. Understanding it is beneficial to just about everyone so you don't try to self correct in harmful ways, but ultimately it typically takes a good instructor to explain how and why a golfers swing is creating a given set of impact conditions

[Barfolomew]

Just to be clear...... I never ignore face angle 🦘

[PracticeSwinger]

44 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

I can hit all three shots with exactly the same path and descending angle of attack for the D-plane. The only difference being whether I've closed the face at the appropriate time. Now, I can also screw up the plane and bias it farther in->out or out->in, which can cause those shots to change. 

 

IMHO the value of the D-plane is that it explains to a golfer what the club should be doing during the swing. A lot of golfers get confused with the "hit down on the ball" or "need positive AoA for driver", and don't really understand that you don't have to consciously "hit down" or "hit up" in order to accomplish that. The D-plane shows you that what angle of attack and path relationship are all about is where you hit the ball on the circumference of that plane. Irons, hybrids, fairway woods off the turf, etc, should ALL be hit on the descending portion of the plane before the low point, whereas many players move the ball forward with driver so they hit the ball after the low point on the ascending portion. That's how you get negative and positive AoA, not by deliberately trying to "hit down" or "hit up".

I'm with you on all that you said, and the example of your shots and usual misses in my view is why discussion on club face control is of the upmost importance (and not the contrary, even when talking about D-plane)... and your last paragraph is definitely why everyone should understand it's implications and the resulting ball flight laws

[Peter_b]

OK so the Hogan stance, everything below left shoulder (or as you would set up square to 4 iron ball left instep)  and then opening or closing stance depending on the club seems to have the purpose of eliminating the D-plane. I just wonder how much the D-plane is really calculating in degrees. For example a 54° wedge that is hit 4° downwards, what is the angle it will fly right from the stance line? Is there an online calculator? Would help setting up and imagination what D-plane does out on the course. 

[Brian Manzella]

The Descriptive Plane is formed by the ball, the normal to the clubface, and the 3D path of the clubhead.

 

TrackMan reports "normal to the clubface" as Dynamic Loft + Face Angle. 

 

TrackMan reports "3D clubhead Path" as Club Path + Angle of Attack. 

 

More closure during impact gives a similar effect as a "heel side" strike. All club faces are closing, so all ball flights get that effect, the more closure the more the effect.

[Peter_b]

If you take 120m for a wedge and -4 degrees attack angle and 0.5 degree per AA rule of thumb, there is a deviation by D-plane of  4m to the right. Which is not much. I am quite sure Hogan did not swing along his stance but still at his target or in between target and stance line.

 

https://www.calculator.net/right-triangle-calculator.html?av=&alphav=2&alphaunit=d&bv=120&betav=&betaunit=d&cv=&hv=&areav=&perimeterv=&x=69&y=18