LCP vs Local Rule E-3

[jobin]

Here, where i play, the daily Captain has the authority to pronounce "LCP today on closely mown areas", and we abide. I like to change balls sometimes esp near the green when i LCP.

Now, another golfer who prides himself on Rules knowledge, told me that under such informal decision making (it's lift and clean today guys) no ball swapping is permitted. He claims ball changing can only be permitted if the Committee (Captain) tells us before the tee-off that "Model Local Rule E-3 in force today".  Thus, play on.

Thoughts or opinions on this?  My opinion, if it matters, is that my friend disagrees with the 'change ball' option when relief granted and he will obstruct when able.

[sui generis]

I'd suggest that the provisions of E-3 are in effect anytime preferred lies are permitted. I can't think of another "legal" way to do LCP. Therefor, substitutions are allowed.

[Mr. Bean]

The way I see it LCP, preferred lies and E-3 are all synonyms, although all of them need a written measure to tell how much you are allowed to move your ball. Mere saying "LCP is in force" or even "Model Local Rule E-3 in force today" is insufficient.

[Schulzmc]

I think when our pro says, “We are playing lift, clean, and replace in your own fairway today.” He is referring to Model Local Rule E-2, not E-3. 

 

E-2 says the ball is replaced in its original spot. E-3 needs a size of the relief area specified, correct?

[Mr. Bean]

15 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

I think when our pro says, “We are playing lift, clean, and replace in your own fairway today.” He is referring to Model Local Rule E-2, not E-3. 

 

E-2 says the ball is replaced in its original spot. E-3 needs a size of the relief area specified, correct?

 

Correct.

[Colin L]

15 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

I think when our pro says, “We are playing lift, clean, and replace in your own fairway today.” He is referring to Model Local Rule E-2, not E-3. 

 

E-2 says the ball is replaced in its original spot. E-3 needs a size of the relief area specified, correct?

That's right -and replacing means you must mark before lifting.

[Newby]

25 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

I think when our pro says, “We are playing lift, clean, and replace in your own fairway today.” He is referring to Model Local Rule E-2, not E-3. 

 

E-2 says the ball is replaced in its original spot. E-3 needs a size of the relief area specified, correct?

Yes.

 

The use of E-2 or E-3 depends on why the relief is thought to be necessary.

E-2 is primarily about mud on the ball, whilst E-3 is arguably about protecting the course but really more about giving the player a reasonable lie in poor course conditions.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Newby

[Colin L]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

The way I see it LCP, preferred lies and E-3 are all synonyms, although all of them need a written measure to tell how much you are allowed to move your ball. Mere saying "LCP is in force" or even "Model Local Rule E-3 in force today" is insufficient.

It could well be - and should be - that Jobin's course has the preferred lies rule with measurement permanently defined and the information that preferred lies are in operation on a particular day (for example by a sign at the first tee) would be adequate.

 

[Schulzmc]

Is it possible in the OP’s original scenario that the OP was assuming E-3 while his opponent was assuming E-2? 

 

Or put another way, does E-3 allow a new ball to be substituted, while E-2 does not?

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, Colin L said:

It could well be - and should be - that Jobin's course has the preferred lies rule with measurement permanently defined and the information that preferred lies are in operation on a particular day (for example by a sign at the first tee) would be adequate.

 

 

That is true, my comment was on a general base as it is far too common that the measure is not told anywhere.

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

Is it possible in the OP’s original scenario that the OP was assuming E-3 while his opponent was assuming E-2? 

 

Or put another way, does E-3 allow a new ball to be substituted, while E-2 does not?

 

1) We do not know, and frankly that is uninteresting.

 

2) Exactly. Since 1.1.2019 you may change your ball always when it is lifted and not to be replaced and vice versa. Very straightforward.

[Newby]

12 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

Is it possible in the OP’s original scenario that the OP was assuming E-3 while his opponent was assuming E-2? 

 

Or put another way, does E-3 allow a new ball to be substituted, while E-2 does not?

E-2 says the ball must be replaced 

E-3 says placing the original ball or another ball

 

LCP implies Place

Edited July 29, 2023 by Newby

[Schulzmc]

11 minutes ago, Newby said:

LCP implies Place

So if my pro says, “Lift clean and place today” he is referring to E-3 but if he says, “Lift clean and replace today” he is referring to E-2? That seems a little nuanced for the average golfer. And in the scenario presented, since the pro did not specify a relief distance (6 inches, scorecard width, club length, etc.) then wouldn’t that imply E-2 even though he said “place”? 

 

What I was trying to get at is this could be the source of the confusion for the OP and his opponent. Although Mr. B finds that uninteresting. LOL

[rogolf]

I suspect that the odds highly favour that LCP was intended in the original post.  I have not seen or heard of lift, clean, replace being in effect (in NA).  Maybe others have?

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

I suspect that the odds highly favour that LCP was intended in the original post.  I have not seen or heard of lift, clean, replace being in effect (in NA).  Maybe others have?

 

No, never. At least around here. Too much confusion and risk of unintended penalties.

[Mr. Bean]

52 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

What I was trying to get at is this could be the source of the confusion for the OP and his opponent. Although Mr. B finds that uninteresting. LOL

 

This is a Rules forum, not a forum of psychological behavior (based on hearsay...). Thus it is uninteresting if there was a misunderstanding as that was not what OP asked but a reponse based on the Rules of Golf.

[Schulzmc]

24 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

This is a Rules forum, not a forum of psychological behavior

This is a “Rules of Golf and Etiquette” forum. Which would certainly include psychological behavior. 

 

I was simply trying to suggest to the OP a possible logical reason he and his opponent disagreed. I am sorry if that post stepped over a line for you.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

This is a “Rules of Golf and Etiquette” forum. Which would certainly include psychological behavior. 

 

Only if people are not following the Etiquette, IMO, and that has not been the case here.

 

Btw, there is no longer a separate Etiquette in Golf officially written anywhere but the essential things are now included in the Rules of Golf. I find that a pitty as too many people lack the knowledge of Etiquette of Golf or ingnore it.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

4 hours ago, rogolf said:

I suspect that the odds highly favour that LCP was intended in the original post.  I have not seen or heard of lift, clean, replace being in effect (in NA).  Maybe others have?

It (LCR) is widely used in the UK specifically for the rough when LCP is in force on the fairway during the winter.

 

The Committee could choose to use both Local Rules permitting preferred lies in the fairways and cleaning the ball elsewhere in the general area.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

51 minutes ago, Newby said:

It (LCR) is widely used in the UK specifically for the rough when LCP is in force on the fairway during the winter.

 

 

Why? Rough is rough and not a place you are supposed to hit your ball into.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

Mud is encountered as often the rough as on the fairway. But what is the LR for otherwise, noting that ball must be replaced? 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Newby

[Colin L]

59 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Why? Rough is rough and not a place you are supposed to hit your ball into.

 

 

Lift Clean & Replace is a standard in our set of "winter rules".   It's nota matter of  the rough being a place you're not supposed to hit your ball into, but of conditions beyond the norm which spoil the enjoyment of golf.  The sole purpose of the rule is to allow you to clean your ball. If it was in a grotty lie, it goes back into the grotty lie but without a big dod of mud of on it. And you still have to play your way out of the rough you shouldn't have gone into.  It's not just a matter of heavy rough.  It is a real pain in the winter to find your ball in the first cut with enough mud on it  to hinder your shot.   

 

It's about mitigating winter conditions so that members enjoy their golf.