A reason to cast?

[Zitlow]

@MPStrat understands cause and effect, how to sync the parts.

 

Limiting the release to just a cast is a recipe for all the things @moerkb mentioned. "thin shots, fat shots and sometimes even hitting to high on the face (what is that called?). I think main reason for this is the casting/flipping/early releease that I do." 

 

I'd add a loss of power and control as well. 

 

[MPStrat]

21 minutes ago, moerkb said:

 

Ok, I understand your point and totally see that specific instruction on a message board can be difficult. 

But all I hope for on this board is some input and ideas. 

 

So when you talk about "things that incentivize rotation" - what do you have in mind, specifically? 

A simple way to say it will involve some of the things that cause the clubhead to work more behind you in the downswing and then allowing the rotation of the body to neutralize the swing direction.

 

Again, that’s extremely oversimplified. 
 

There is a combination of body rotation and arm movements that bring the club to where it is at p6. When the arm movements are too steep and that’s different for every golfer, the body won’t be incentivized to rotate beyond a certain point because the arms already did the job of the body. Using more rotation at that point won’t be functional.  
 

This is a very common thing. It’s not really a do x and you’re fixed type of problem, though. That idea is sold, but it’s not realistic. 

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, moerkb said:

Well, that escalated quickly 😉 

 

Thanks for your input and discussion!

 

 

 

Maybe a little more background:

 

I am struggling with two things:

 

1. Vertically missing the sweet spot, i. e. thin shots, fat shots and sometimes even hitting to high on the face (what is that called?). I think main reason for this is the casting/flipping/early releease that I do. From a very flat surface like a driving range mat or a nice fairway, it is not big of a deal. But as soon as something is behind the golf ball (slope, grass, ...) I struggle to make good contact. Hence the pronounced lateral motion - that is my "quickfix" to hit ball first, then turf. If I don't do that, it's chunky most of the time.
2. Missing clubhead speed. There is a lot of effort going on, but not quite the rewarding speed. Padraig Harrington just released a video where he demonstrates this really well around 1:20. A little exaggerated, but it feels exactly like what I am doing.

I am really good with pitches using this technique. There is a german golf teacher and book author who likes to call this "paddling" (i.e. releasing to early but still getting shaft lean; feels like dragging a paddle through water) and actually recommends it for pitches. For full shots, this is really weak.

 

As for the float loading: I already moved away from that. In fact, that's what got me here in the first place. Search for the term and it does not take long for Monte to show up and talk about what I experienced...

What it did though, was giving me the experience of more club head speed, better strike and less effort. A real whip through the ball. So I know what is possible and now search for the correct way of doing it.

 

 

What I am not trying to do:

• Getting more shaft lean. Trackman and video show that I have between 4 and 10 degrees depending on club, shot and human error. Imho it is just fine.
• Getting more (or maximum) amount of lag. I don't try to maximize it, but something makes me loose it just too early.

Hope that clears things up.

 

As I understand it, the consesus from you guys is to get more rotation going on. And then maybe (or maybe not) work on shallowing if I am getting off plane...?

You said you are working on float loading with your current coach, if not, your original post sent folks in the wrong direction.  I'm not sure suggesting that you think a feel of dragging a paddle through water on pitch shots is how to model your short game is helpful other than sounds like you may need some short game help as well, IMO.  Just me, but I don't see how having a release on my pitch shots (vs. dragging a paddle, which is just weird and completely passive yet you are swinging a club) is fundamentally different than having a release on my full shots, again, just me.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, moerkb said:

Well, that escalated quickly 😉 

 

Thanks for your input and discussion!

 

 

 

Maybe a little more background:

 

I am struggling with two things:

 

1. Vertically missing the sweet spot, i. e. thin shots, fat shots and sometimes even hitting to high on the face (what is that called?). I think main reason for this is the casting/flipping/early releease that I do. From a very flat surface like a driving range mat or a nice fairway, it is not big of a deal. But as soon as something is behind the golf ball (slope, grass, ...) I struggle to make good contact. Hence the pronounced lateral motion - that is my "quickfix" to hit ball first, then turf. If I don't do that, it's chunky most of the time.
2. Missing clubhead speed. There is a lot of effort going on, but not quite the rewarding speed. Padraig Harrington just released a video where he demonstrates this really well around 1:20. A little exaggerated, but it feels exactly like what I am doing.

I am really good with pitches using this technique. There is a german golf teacher and book author who likes to call this "paddling" (i.e. releasing to early but still getting shaft lean; feels like dragging a paddle through water) and actually recommends it for pitches. For full shots, this is really weak.

 

As for the float loading: I already moved away from that. In fact, that's what got me here in the first place. Search for the term and it does not take long for Monte to show up and talk about what I experienced...

What it did though, was giving me the experience of more club head speed, better strike and less effort. A real whip through the ball. So I know what is possible and now search for the correct way of doing it.

 

 

What I am not trying to do:

• Getting more shaft lean. Trackman and video show that I have between 4 and 10 degrees depending on club, shot and human error. Imho it is just fine.
• Getting more (or maximum) amount of lag. I don't try to maximize it, but something makes me loose it just too early.

Hope that clears things up.

 

As I understand it, the consesus from you guys is to get more rotation going on. And then maybe (or maybe not) work on shallowing if I am getting off plane...?

You said you are working on float loading with your current coach, if not, your original post sent folks in the wrong direction.  I'm not sure suggesting that you think a feel of dragging a paddle through water on pitch shots is how to model your short game is helpful other than sounds like you may need some short game help as well, IMO.  Just me, but I don't see how having a release on my pitch shots (vs. dragging a paddle, which is just weird and completely passive yet you are swinging a club) is fundamentally different than having a release on my full shots, again, just me.

[Hawkeye77]

Delete

Edited September 13, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Hawkeye77]

Delete

Edited September 13, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Hawkeye77]

No idea what is up with this site, but sorry for the three replies - will be exiting now, lol.

[moerkb]

21 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I see no aesthetic issues here.  Is there a ball flight problem?

 

More of a strike problem in missing the sweet spot vertically - thin, fat and sometimes even high on the face. 

 

I suspect that comes from the cast/flip/early release/howeveryoucallit, but after all that's just a guess of mine. Basically what @Zitlow wrote.

 

 

@MPStrat Thanks for the explanation! Think I understand the idea and will discuss it with my pro.

 

@Hawkeye77 My apologies if it was misunderstandable what I wrote. 

Nothing wrong with my short game, though. That "paddling" stuff was more a description of what I already do (naturally) and not a feeling trying to train towards. It is actually quite similar to what Hovland does now after his recent shortgame swing change. Just a goofy name and explanation. I tried to express that my swing works really well on pitches, but not so much on full shots. 

[Zitlow]

@moerkb The release isn't done just with an isolation of the hands at the start of the downswing. it's done with a synchronization of all the joints.

 

The whole downswing is one big release involving all the major joints. The club is fully released when it's in line with the right arm just pass impact. 

 

Little guys like Rickie Fowler hit the ball a long way because they're using their whole structure. 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

3 hours ago, moerkb said:

 

More of a strike problem in missing the sweet spot vertically - thin, fat and sometimes even high on the face. 

 

I suspect that comes from the cast/flip/early release/howeveryoucallit, but after all that's just a guess of mine. Basically what @Zitlow wrote.

 

 

@MPStrat Thanks for the explanation! Think I understand the idea and will discuss it with my pro.

 

@Hawkeye77 My apologies if it was misunderstandable what I wrote. 

Nothing wrong with my short game, though. That "paddling" stuff was more a description of what I already do (naturally) and not a feeling trying to train towards. It is actually quite similar to what Hovland does now after his recent shortgame swing change. Just a goofy name and explanation. I tried to express that my swing works really well on pitches, but not so much on full shots. 

Poor strikes are a Sequencing issue when there are no ugly aesthetic issues.  Pressure shift left is a hair late, left arm is staying close to your chest pretty because the hands work in toward your body a bit too much and right elbow stays behind you a little and the club kicks out early as a result.  
 

Float loading on purpose is awful.  Your release isn’t the issue.  There is no cast.  As a matter of fact if you ulnar deviated the club more behind you earlier, it would actually improve  your strike pattern. 
 

id work on getting left earlier and you’d see a lot of these things sort out.
 

 

[moerkb]

All right, thanks a lot! I'll work on that and report back when... there is something to report 😉

 

Cheers!

[golferdude54]

In almost every case, every action has an opposite reaction. If you hinge your wrists too much in your backswing, the cast will for sure show up.

 

Look at Scottie Scheffler and Jack Nicklaus, they both figured out if they didn’t hinge as much in the backswing as the “conventional” way, their opposite reaction in the downswing wouldn’t have any casting.

[Lefthook]

Op,

 

you are drifting between a right foot pívot and left foot pívot during the downswing, and your pelvis is gradually sliding forward. Thus, the result you get is almost guaranteed.

 

You need to establish the front foot as pívot point during transition. You can regard that as the end of the backswing rather than the start of the downswing.

 

There may be more to it, but this part is vital.

[TheDeanAbides]

18 hours ago, golferdude54 said:

In almost every case, every action has an opposite reaction. If you hinge your wrists too much in your backswing, the cast will for sure show up.

 

Look at Scottie Scheffler and Jack Nicklaus, they both figured out if they didn’t hinge as much in the backswing as the “conventional” way, their opposite reaction in the downswing wouldn’t have any casting.

What is “too much”? 

[golferdude54]

9 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

What is “too much”? 

For someone who doesn’t have double-jointed wrists, probably 90* between left forearm and clubshaft when left arm is parallel to ground in backswing for a righty would be too much.

 

Hogan had double-jointed wrists so he hinged a lot. But Tiger and Jack when they were both 21 had super wide backswings with less hinging, probably the widest on tour at the time. Right now it’s Scheffler and Cameron Young.

[TheDeanAbides]

6 hours ago, golferdude54 said:

For someone who doesn’t have double-jointed wrists, probably 90* between left forearm and clubshaft when left arm is parallel to ground in backswing for a righty would be too much.

 

Hogan had double-jointed wrists so he hinged a lot. But Tiger and Jack when they were both 21 had super wide backswings with less hinging, probably the widest on tour at the time. Right now it’s Scheffler and Cameron Young.

In that case, what you said is 100% wrong and definitely not the cause of a cast. If that was the case 75% of the tour would be casting and they’re clearly not. A cast is most often an attempt to correct a sequencing problem, but that problem isn’t that the wrists are hinged too much. 
 

Hinging them too late and float loading is much more likely to be problematic.