If You Use Ballard Swing Methods How Can You Get Longer

[Texsport]

Recomendations for distance improvement

There have been some long discussions concerning the relative merits of using Jimmy Ballard's swing methods. I have used it to increase my accuracy and consistency tremendously but I'm certainly no swing expert, using only what works for me based on a lot of ball hitting, which I do. I hit balls year round at least 4 times a week.

As a Ballard proponent, I'd like to investigate the possiblility that I'm not maximizing my distance.

I'm not short, but I am getting older, so I don't want to limit my abilities with a method that may be harder to utilize as I fight my weight, lose body speed, flexibility and strength.

slicefixer---what would I work on to increase distance, coming from a Ballard method base as you did?

Take a wider stance? Try to swing in a more circular path? Try to keep my head still? Change my setup by setting my right shoulder lower at address?

It's the off season and I'd like to try some new things in combination with my winter fitness and strength training.

Thanks for any suggestions!

Texsport

[Boise59]

Get deeper behind the ball into your right side-seen in long hitters like Angel Cabrera and Hank Kuehne. I've worked with Jimmy for 18 years and have been to see him several times. This will bring your ball flight up as well. Contrary to popular belief, Ballard guys are not all low ball hitters. Jim Dent, Seve and Johnny Miller for example hit it fairly high as did Tiger when he was working with Butch.

[Texsport]

Get deeper behind the ball into your right side-seen in long hitters like Angel Cabrera and Hank Kuehne. I've worked with Jimmy for 18 years and have been to see him several times. This will bring your ball flight up as well. Contrary to popular belief, Ballard guys are not all low ball hitters. Jim Dent, Seve and Johnny Miller for example hit it fairly high as did Tiger when he was working with Butch.

 

Do you mean turn more behind the ball? I get pretty far back when I let my front heel lift a little. I used to keep the heel down but have tried to extend back further with this move. It also makes sure I get behind the ball and don't reverse pivot. Heel also acts as a timing device for starting downswing all-together.

 

Texsport

[MGWP]

"This will bring your ball flight up as well. Contrary to popular belief, Ballard guys are not all low ball hitters. Jim Dent, Seve and Johnny Miller for example hit it fairly high as did Tiger when he was working with Butch"

 

 

First of all Seve and Johnny Miller didn't work with Ballard much, if at all. Johnny Miller was a John Geertson (sp) guy and Seve as worked with seemingly everybody in the world at one time or another.......O'Grady, Leadbetter, etc.

 

My ONLY real problem with Ballard is the "slide" into the right side necessitated by the "level" set up.....and thats IT.....IF you SLIDE into your right side your upper body and lower body are "stacked" on top of one another at the top of your backswing and (its VERY, VERY difficult to turn deep enough relative to the target line) the player is then REQUIRED to slide the entire body forward to get back into a proper relationship with the golf ball........ANYTIME you slide the entire body forward the head will have to stop/freeze at the appropriate time to keep from getting too much "on top" of the golf ball......getting too much "on top" of the ball is why TRUE Ballard players tend to hit the ball on a lower more boring ball flight......IF they get too much "ahead" of the golf ball they tend to hit "wipe" rights......."freeze" the head to early and they will pull the ball as they are too far behind it to "release" the right side in the manner Ballard espouses.......face has a tendency to close down......

 

Its MUCH easier and more effective IMOP to simply set up on a more "natural tilt" and TURN into your right side......IF this is done properly then the big upper body slide is totally unnecessary as your lower body is in position to transfer to your left leg/left pivot point and your head can simply stay where it is at is at the completion of the backswing.........this "softer" transition move allows the arms to work down for a micro-second which places them in front of the right hip/right side so that everything can turn through the shot together and there is no manipulation of the club necessary to square the face........its simply a more effecient way of swinging the golf club with fewer moving parts while also adhering to all of the basic "principles" of Ballard's swing theory........which as I've stated before.....is a fundamentally sound swing theory and a great way of swinging the golf club........I just don't care for Jimmy's set-up angles (level set up) as it creates the necessity to move the body too much laterally..........

[slicefixer]

Tex,

 

Basically what I changed from my Ballard day's was the set up and backswing "turn".......I figured out, after a TON of time on "misery hill," that I had to eliminate as much lateral motion in my swing as was possible.....my lower body didn't want to move laterally as much as it wanted to clear/rotate so I had all kinds of problems getting from my right side to my left side in the transition.......seems I was always either hung back and spun out or to much on top of the ball and fighting getting out in front of it.....especially with the driver.....I also found that a great number of Ballard proponents had the same problems......not all of them for sure, but, most of them that I knew that were really good @ Ballard's method.....

 

So, what I did was this......I changed my set up so that I was on a more "natural tilt" which made it MUCH easier for me to TURN and stay more "centered".....upper body turned "deeper" much quicker without my lower body sliding at all as it simply "turned" too.......more like O'Grady/Hogan........All I focused on, and still do, is turning without losing the "set"/flex of my right leg.......as a result I no longer had to go 6" to get to my left side/left pivot point.....more like 2" and it was EASY for me to go 2" as that happened WITHOUT "thinking".....as a result I was able to increase the rotational speed of my ENTIRE body WITHOUT getting hung back/stuck/trapped/spun out.......and I could let everything rotate naturally to the left without any hesitation/anxiety of getting "stuck" or "trapped" or BOTH which caused me to pull/pull hook IF I slowed my upper body to early or "wipe" right everything off the bottom of the club IF I kept my body rotating through the ball.......which I ALWAYS fought when I was a true Ballard swinger of the club......

 

BUT, that was ME.......somebody who feels comfortable moving more laterally than rotary MIGHT not get the same results.......or the same results as quickly as I did.......I got results IMMEDIATELY......NO more pulls......0.......nowadays all I have to do is monitor my set up and the first 12" or so of the backswing and everything else seems to just "fall into place".......I can let it ALL "go" and NOT fight that damn PULL that I despised.......and that seemed to ALWAYS show up at the most inopportune times........

 

As a result of increasing my body's rotational speed WITHOUT sticking the club or trapping the right arm behind my butt I increased my distance substantially........probably 10/15 or so yards BEFORE the "ProV era" hit us.....then another 15 due to the golf ball/driver........and I gained accuracy as well........

 

Since then I've ALWAYS taught a more "natural" set up with "angles" that more replicated the amount of difference between the right hand being lower on the club than the left hand.......thus the right shoulder is approx. the same amount below the left as the right hand is below the left........then its simply a matter of weight distribution at the set up so that the player is in a better position to turn into a "deep"/balanced backswing yet still maintain the ability to strike the ball at the appropriate time and in the appropriate spot to create the proper angle of attack for that club and shot........and it works for just about anyone who has average athletic ability........

 

Of course, there are people who don't have the athletic ability or might not have the physical ability to do this so thats when I have to REALLY "earn my money"......use my imagination and knowledge to adapt a set up and backswing technique that will work for that person.........everyone can't swing the same way, but, everyone CAN create a fundamentally sound set up for THEM and then create a fundamentally sound "pivot" for them which allows them to strike the ball more consistently out of the center of the face with adequate distance.........

 

IN summary Tex.........IF you want to hit it further without losing accuracy the player has to get set up as fundamentally sounds as they possibly can within their athletic/physical capability.......then learn to create as much speed as is possible without being forced to manipulate the arms/hands/club in the impact zone......IMOP.......:dntknw:

[glcoach]

Slicefixer, as you may know I have been trying to emulate Annika Sorenstam as much as possible which led me to the Jimmy Ballard stuff. I have been practicing in front of a mirror and hitting balls every day for the past several weeks. I have found that when I adhere to Jimmy's principles of firing the right side and keeping my right hand further away from my body than the left hand at all times, that my ballstriking is much improved.

 

I have been trying to do things more rotary than laterally, which has also made my swing simpler. Is it possible to learn some things from teachers such as Ballard, without totally selling out to the method? If I have a natural tilt to my shoulders and turn into my right side, while otherwise adhering to Ballard's principles; is this ok? If not what examples of swings would you recommend.

 

I am a person that tends to learn by looking at examples, that is why I ask. I have learned a lot from these threads on Ballard, thanks for your input.

[dolleris]

Basically what I changed from my Ballard day's was the set up and backswing "turn".......I figured out, after a TON of time on "misery hill," that I had to eliminate as much lateral motion in my swing as was possible.....my lower body didn't want to move laterally as much as it wanted to clear/rotate so I had all kinds of problems getting from my right side to my left side in the transition.......seems I was always either hung back and spun out or to much on top of the ball and fighting getting out in front of it.....especially with the driver.....I also found that a great number of Ballard proponents had the same problems......not all of them for sure, but, most of them that I knew that were really good @ Ballard's method.....

 

So, what I did was this......I changed my set up so that I was on a more "natural tilt" which made it MUCH easier for me to TURN and stay more "centered".....upper body turned "deeper" much quicker without my lower body sliding at all as it simply "turned" too.......more like O'Grady/Hogan........All I focused on, and still do, is turning without losing the "set"/flex of my right leg.......as a result I no longer had to go 6" to get to my left side/left pivot point.....more like 2" and it was EASY for me to go 2" as that happened WITHOUT "thinking".....as a result I was able to increase the rotational speed of my ENTIRE body WITHOUT getting hung back/stuck/trapped/spun out.......and I could let everything rotate naturally to the left without any hesitation/anxiety of getting "stuck" or "trapped" or BOTH which caused me to pull/pull hook IF I slowed my upper body to early or "wipe" right everything off the bottom of the club IF I kept my body rotating through the ball.......which I ALWAYS fought when I was a true Ballard swinger of the club......

 

BUT, that was ME.......somebody who feels comfortable moving more laterally than rotary MIGHT not get the same results.......or the same results as quickly as I did.......I got results IMMEDIATELY......NO more pulls......0.......nowadays all I have to do is monitor my set up and the first 12" or so of the backswing and everything else seems to just "fall into place".......I can let it ALL "go" and NOT fight that damn PULL that I despised.......and that seemed to ALWAYS show up at the most inopportune times........

 

As a result of increasing my body's rotational speed WITHOUT sticking the club or trapping the right arm behind my butt I increased my distance substantially........probably 10/15 or so yards BEFORE the "ProV era" hit us.....then another 15 due to the golf ball/driver........and I gained accuracy as well........

 

Since then I've ALWAYS taught a more "natural" set up with "angles" that more replicated the amount of difference between the right hand being lower on the club than the left hand.......thus the right shoulder is approx. the same amount below the left as the right hand is below the left........then its simply a matter of weight distribution at the set up so that the player is in a better position to turn into a "deep"/balanced backswing yet still maintain the ability to strike the ball at the appropriate time and in the appropriate spot to create the proper angle of attack for that club and shot........and it works for just about anyone who has average athletic ability........

 

Of course, there are people who don't have the athletic ability or might not have the physical ability to do this so thats when I have to REALLY "earn my money"......use my imagination and knowledge to adapt a set up and backswing technique that will work for that person.........everyone can't swing the same way, but, everyone CAN create a fundamentally sound set up for THEM and then create a fundamentally sound "pivot" for them which allows them to strike the ball more consistently out of the center of the face with adequate distance.........

 

IN summary Tex.........IF you want to hit it further without losing accuracy the player has to get set up as fundamentally sounds as they possibly can within their athletic/physical capability.......then learn to create as much speed as is possible without being forced to manipulate the arms/hands/club in the impact zone......IMOP.......

 

This post sums up most of my problems during the last 2 seasons.

And as a bonus it also memorizes all the keynotes I have in my little red book, which I tend to forget on the practice range :drinks:

 

I think I'll summarize it a bit and print it out and keep it in my bag for the winter practice :dntknw:

Very insightful and helpful for me also!

[slicefixer]

I gotta' respectfully disagree with you somewhat......

 

IF most golfers TRY and hit the ball HARD alll they are going to do is pull a muscle or muscles.......scar the crown of their driver........and lose a BUNCH of golf balls.......

 

In order to hit a golf ball as far as the golfer is capable of there are 3 things required.....

 

1. proper path/angle of attack......

2. solid contact with a "supported" blow......

3. clubhead speed......

 

IMOP its FAR, FAR more important to get the "first 2 first"......"first things first" and THEN work on developing maximum clubhead speed.......speed with an oblique hit on a bad angle of attack/path simply hits the ball a lil' bit further into the crap.......:dntknw:

[Boise59]

What I mean is that to hit the ball far and high your weight must be deeply coiled over the inside of the right leg. The easiest way to find out how deep you are is to draw a line straight up from the ball. The deeper you are behind that line the longer and higher the ball will go. Now some of the Ballard skeptics will deride this, for them I would suggest they check out Golf Digest July 2000. The cover story talks about how longer hitters(Tiger, Vijay, Sergio) get deep behind the ball line.

 

 

There are some really interesting guys on this post many who have their personal opinions (mainly non-factual) about Jimmy Ballard. His teaching has probably affected more teachers than any other in the last 100 years for good reason-his method is easy to learn and works.

[slicefixer]

"What I mean is that to hit the ball far and high your weight must be deeply coiled over the inside of the right leg. The easiest way to find out how deep you are is to draw a line straight up from the ball. The deeper you are behind that line the longer and higher the ball will go. Now some of the Ballard skeptics will deride this, for them I would suggest they check out Golf Digest July 2000. The cover story talks about how longer hitters(Tiger, Vijay, Sergio) get deep behind the ball line."

 

Sir, with all due respect Ballard advocates a LEVEL set up......from this set up the player MUST slide the ENTIRE BODY laterally (bear in mind the ball does NOT move, but, the ARC the clubhead is moving upon moves in relation to the ball)......"Load" into the right side........when this happens the ENTIRE body will be in a position at the top (lower body and upper body "stacked" on top of one another" and the golf ball is now VERY far forward) that REQUIRES that the ENTIRE body slide forward.......then when you "release" the right side as advocated by Ballard the upper ad lower bodies tend to "stack up" on top of one another at impact with very little upper body tilt away from the target....(FINE if you want to hit the ball fairly low).......(look at the right foot in the drawings in his book......the right TOE is the only thing on the ground at impact which when combined with "firing the right side" and releasing "center" results in the body being EXTREMELY "on top" of the golf ball)......NOW, IF you can tell me how your going to hit the ball HIGH from "on top" (upper and lower body stacked on top of one another at impact) I'm all ears......the ONLY way would be to somehow add loft to the club at impact and certainly isn't fundamentally sound IMOP....

 

IMOP "coiling"/winding/turning INTO the right side IS a necessary component of a good backswing and will if transitioned and utilized properly in the downswing produce incredibly HIGH golf shots.......However, with the Ballard methods "level" set up its impossible to "coil" properly without sliding.......slide back.....slide through......get on top of the ball......and release the right side......Ballard 100%......Go watch Hal Sutton hit golf balls......Leonard Thompson.......Jim Colbert.......hell, they are ALL actually Ballard students and use his methods instead of citing "Vijay, Tiger, and Sergio who don't........

 

IMOP the amount of "tilt" in the upper body vs. the lower body and the amount/type of "release" of the clubhead BOTH contribute to how HIGH a golf shot is struck.......the "tilt" or lack thereof of the shaft will determine the amount of loft on the golf club at impact and helps determine the trajectory of the shot.......the amount of loft and clubhead speed help determine the trajectory.........how shallow or "narrow" the angle of attack.......etc. etc. etc......

 

IN fact, I've always been confused WHY Ballard uses Hogan as an example so much in his book...... then on page 130 he uses illustrations taken from pictures of Weiskopf and Miller in Venturi's book, "The Venturi Analysis" to purportedly show what the golf club/arms/hands/body should "appear" post impact........he states that the picture of Miller is WRONG and Weiskopf is RIGHT.......study some video.......the drawing of Miller is MUCH more like Hogan/Venturi/Snead/Furyk/Toms/Trevino/Garcia, etc. etc. etc. etc......don't believe me, go study some slo-mo video...........

 

 

"There are some really interesting guys on this post many who have their personal opinions (mainly non-factual) about Jimmy Ballard. His teaching has probably affected more teachers than any other in the last 100 years for good reason-his method is easy to learn and works."

 

Boy, now THAT is a strong statement (especially the "non-factual" part)... the methods of today's best teachers nor read THEIR quotes as to EXACTLY who was the most influential on their "core" beliefs runs quite contradictory to Jimmy Ballard's theories/method........

 

"His teaching has probably affected more teachers than any other in the last 100 years for good reason-his method is easy to learn and works."

 

IF your referring to "connection" then I'd agree somewhat with your statement.....but I'd hardly call Ballard the "Father of Connection" as there are MANY references to exactly that in instruction books long before Ballard hit the scene...........

[Boise59]

Thank you for those kind words. My qualifications are as follows:

-PGA member 20 years

-24 years of teaching experience

-Give over 500 lessons per year

-Have taught mini-tour and Division ! college players and amateur champions

-Member-PGA President's Circle

-Have worked with the following-Jimmy Ballard, Hank Haney, Mitchell Spearman, David Leadbetter and Dr. Jim Suttie

-Have a video collection of every great player from Harry Vardon to Tiger which I use in my teaching

-Have taken lessons and been personal friends with Jimmy Ballard since 1988, the latest lesson last summer.

-Formerly had the largest collection of Ernest Jones memrobilia including all 3 of his books and every magazine article published in the US.

 

So why again am I unqualified to speak on this subject?

[slicefixer]

Your OWN words......

 

""There are some really interesting guys on this post many who have their personal opinions (mainly non-factual) about Jimmy Ballard. His teaching has probably affected more teachers than any other in the last 100 years for good reason-his method is easy to learn and works."

 

"non-factual"........where?

 

Are Colbert, Thompson, Sutton not better examples of Jimmy Ballard's instruction than "Tiger, Vijay, Garcia?......NONE of which to my knowledge has EVER taken a lesson from Jimmy Ballard. Colbert, Thompson, and Sutton are the perfect examples to utilize as they all worked with Jimmy Ballard for years, are VERY, VERY good players, and certainly are excellent "living-breathing" examples of his golf swing "method" when its at its best. (BTW, all are fairly low ball hitters who don't CARRY the golf ball very far when compared with today's "kids.")

 

I see you chose to not dispute my "summary" of Jimmy Ballard's method which is interesting........if its "non-factual" I would expect a "spirited"/fact based response from someone of your credentials.

 

 

 

 

BTW, believe it or not, I AM a fan of Jimmy Ballard and do believe, as you do, that his method is very sound, relatively easy to learn, and has benefitted countless legions of golfers (and instructors too....including myself) during the past 30 + years.

 

I spent over 2 years of my own golf life DEDICATED to ingraining his method and it does work......and work well.....but, like ALL golf swing methods it has some definite +'s and -'s......and IMOP a FAIRLY low/boring trajectory off of the driver and subsequent lack of CARRY distance is one of them........this won't make a "hill of beans" for the average golfer, but, for the player who desires to play competitively at the professional level it certainly could be a problem.

 

As you NO doubt know, "Championship" golf courses nowadays are getting longer....7,500 + yards and still growing.......many more forced carries of 250 + yards from the back tees........greenside bunkers getting deeper.......green firmness due to newer turf grasses, hybrid bermudas, etc., are MUCH firmer than just 10 years ago........Ya' gotta' "launch" it waaaay up into the air......or at least have the capability of launching and carrying it a helluva' long ways nowadays........

 

The game at the CHAMPIONSHIP level has changed. The lowball hitter/short to medium length driver are "numbered"......meaning they can compete on an EQUAL basis with the modern high ball "launcher" only on certain courses. IMOP if a player cannot CARRY the ball 280 + he's going to be giving up a tremendous advantage to the majority of the field. IMOP most MEN who develop through Ballard's method to the professional level will have great difficulty CARRYING the ball in the air long enough to NOT be at a substantial competitive disadvantage......and thats MOP...... (BTW, I personally HATE the "changes" in MEN'S championship golf over the past 10 years......"strategy" is being removed.......shorter/lowball/accurate players are being slowly eliminated......etc......however, it "is" what it "is"....)

[slicefixer]

"Slicefixer, as you may know I have been trying to emulate Annika Sorenstam as much as possible which led me to the Jimmy Ballard stuff. I have been practicing in front of a mirror and hitting balls every day for the past several weeks. I have found that when I adhere to Jimmy's principles of firing the right side and keeping my right hand further away from my body than the left hand at all times, that my ballstriking is much improved. "

 

I have been trying to do things more rotary than laterally, which has also made my swing simpler. Is it possible to learn some things from teachers such as Ballard, without totally selling out to the method? If I have a natural tilt to my shoulders and turn into my right side, while otherwise adhering to Ballard's principles; is this ok? If not what examples of swings would you recommend.

 

I am a person that tends to learn by looking at examples, that is why I ask. I have learned a lot from these threads on Ballard, thanks for your input."

 

 

--------------------

Your MOST welcome.......

 

"If I have a natural tilt to my shoulders and turn into my right side, while otherwise adhering to Ballard's principles; is this ok?"

 

and ABSOLUTELY.....100%........

 

IMOP that would be a PERFECT combination of excellent information with a set up adjustment for YOU.....

 

As I've stated on numerous occasions I KNOW Ballard's method works.....and works well. I'm also fairly certain that Ballard has most probably altered his method somewhat (WITHOUT changing/altering/compromising his basic "core" beliefs) from the publication of his book in the early 80's.......Most of the "average Joe" Ballard players I've seen are more rotational than the technique described in How to Perfect Your Golf Swing and that would only make sense today with the proliferation of "rotational" big muscle methods/books/teachers, etc. I would imagine the average AVID Ballard golfer nowadays didn't start out with any knowledge, or more than cursory knowledge, of Ballards method/technicque. After all, he hasn't been the "in vogue" teacher in Golf Digest/Golf Magazine for many years now.........(unfortunate IMOP)

 

ALL golf instructors MUST alter their instruction/techniques as they discover/learn new information and the game changes/evolves as it has in the past 10 years or so.......IF a teacher sticks there head in the sand and thinks they know it all they are going to find themselves on the outside looking in IMOP.......

 

IMOP you can use information from any number of sources in YOUR swing provided the information is based on a "compatible"/similar motion/idea. Heck, even Hal Sutton, (who would no doubt be Ballard's greatest claim to fame) doesn't release the club in the manner Jimmy Ballard espouses in his book. He does everything else 100% right down the line classic Ballard until the impact zone. Through impact Sutton's body/club go much more left and the clubhead stays much squarer to the ARC....."passive." So even Hal Sutton has added his own "twist" to the basic Ballard "platform".......

 

Personally, I think that ALL of our golf swings are a "recipe" that is gathered from any number of sources/methods. Athletic ability, age, flexibility, discipline, desire, TIME, etc. are also part of our own personal golf swing "reciipe." NO one method will be the BEST method for everyone. While I have my own "core" belief in regards to the "best" and most effecient way to swing a golf club for ME that doesn't mean it would be for YOU.

 

In fact, my own golf swing beliefs are founded upon the recommendations of many quality teachers, REALLY studying thousands of hours of video, and the subsequent research and application of this information for tens of thousands of hours over the past 20 odd years. I'm sure the same can be said of most outstanding teachers.......and most outstanding players as well. Gotta' find what works for YOU........find the information, or the "recipe" for your game! Thats why all golf NUTS like ourselves are ALWAYS on the lookout for some new and innovative information!

 

IMOP......:dntknw:

[spider]

Wow this is a great debate and learning source. So nice to see golf instructors that are so pationate and conscientious about their craft. I do not feel most of the instructors who teach the average Joe have put the kinda of effort and study into their profession as you have Slicefixer and others who contribute to Golfwrx. Hopefully I can find an instructor someday that will be as helpful as your discussions and this site are.

 

thanks

[Points]

Why does Ballard always bring up controversy?

 

Because he was very different to everything that was being taught at the time. Golf was for the most part a single pivot game which placed all the emphasis on the left side. He said some things which were very different. The head moves and use your right side. There is no question that those two ideas have been copied and intergrated into most great teachers theories.

 

Ballard did a lot more though. He really made the idea of the "golf school" succesful. I am not talking about the gypsy schools which set up tent anywhere either (not to say a lot of those teachers weren't great). I am talking about getting huge numbers of people to visit him in Alabama. Why?

 

The problem when we talk about the game is very few sight the sources where the information came from. Let's face it Lead stole right from Jimmy with the dog wags the tale logo in his early teachings.

 

Did Ballard overestimate the amount of lateral motion? Yes

 

Did he make a lot of players better? Yes

 

A couple of things that I will through out about the Ballard Method. First, Ballard talked extensively about getting the clubhead out in front of you on the downswing. That is an idea which is very popular in golf today. Secondly, Jimmy taught a mainly anti-lag golf swing (which goes along with getting the clubhead out)

The results were some guys that hit the ball great. Strange, Sutton, and many more.

 

However, Ballard was a total method teacher. He had a set of exact positions he required most to adhere to. As a method teacher, Ballard was also smart enough to recognize talent and help it grow. From what I have heard, he didn't ruin players.

 

Like slicefixer, I would like to hear what "ideas" ggpro has come up with based on his extensive resume.

[slicefixer]

VERY good post IMOP......and true too...(IMOP...... :beach: ) The best line IMOP......"Ballard was also smart enough to recognize talent and help it grow. From what I have heard, he didn't ruin players." That IS a VERY high compliment IMOP....

 

Yep, and Ballard his "method" was sure "different" for the time......it sure was.....I KNOW it aggravated a great many of the "keep the head STILL"......"TURN around your spine"...(always found that one funny as to do it correctly you have to violate "keep the head still"...:dntknw:)....."drive those legs/knees"......."swing that clubhead inside-out"......"roll those wrists"......."touch those forearms"....... guy's to no end.......:drinks:

 

Personally I think Jimmy Ballard was/is a G R E A T teacher.....make no mistake bout' that.......but do I think he INVENTED the game and his words deserved to be "Canonized"......no......IF one reads and researches differing golf swing techniques throughout the 19th/20th centuries up to today you'll find one helluva' lot of "borrowing" from each other........not to say that Jimmy Ballard wasn't innovative.......he was/is......not to say he's not a brilliant teacher.......he is IMOP.......in fact, there are a number of the supposed "Top 10" in GD and GM that shouldn't be in the top 50......hell the top 100 IMOP........but Ballard deserves a place there.......

 

I do think there are a number of "semi-flaws" in his method and have described them to DEATH lately in the many "Ballard" threads here and across town........I promise I WON'T do it again......I just think that too many golf "teachers" act like they invented the bloody game.......or in most cases, too many golf teachers "loyal" students act like "their teacher" invented the game.......and as a result they do not "handle" criticism well......no matter how well intended this "criticism" might be.......I can tell you one thing, I've learned a heck of a lot more through "criticism" than "praise"........10 to 1........easy to take praise......HARD to "handle" criticism........but if handled properly it sure will motivate the person to THINK......at least it does me........:wave:

[slicefixer]

"Wow this is a great debate and learning source. So nice to see golf instructors that are so pationate and conscientious about their craft. I do not feel most of the instructors who teach the average Joe have put the kinda of effort and study into their profession as you have Slicefixer and others who contribute to Golfwrx. Hopefully I can find an instructor someday that will be as helpful as your discussions and this site are."

 

"thanks"

 

Your MOST welcome Spider.......if anything I post benefits you or any golfer here that makes me very pleased.......

 

IMOP your correct about this site......there are any number of VERY knowledgable golfers/teachers who inhabit this forum and I've learned PLENTY myself from THEM.......and they know who they are...... :dntknw: One other great thing about this site for me is I ALWAYS have to REALLY "think" about a post.......no slackin' off around here or you'll darned sure get "called" on it....... :drinks: (but thats how a person REALLY learns IMOP)

[Points]

Students feel good if they think their teacher invented the game. No matter how flawed the method might be people want no they need reassurance that what they are doing is right. The reason most instructors have a "holy than thou" attitude is because their students spend all day telling them how great they are. Eventually, they buy into it and shut off how to learn. That is why the old teacher will use whip the young teacher in a debate. Not always because he knows more but because he has perfected the argument.

[slicefixer]

Ballard is a fine teacher.......just NOT the "2nd coming" IMOP as you seem to think........and thats certainly your right to feel that way.....but its MY right to think otherwise......and I do......

 

But, just because I disagree with you about Jimmy Ballard does NOT, IMOP, mean that I have some type of "chip"/bitterness........believe me, I don't.......I simply feel that his method of swinging a golf club isn't the most effecient way of swinging a golf club.......and I also feel that he has a number of contradictions in his teaching and in his book. I have listed my opinion on Ballard MULTIPLE times both here and at the other site.......I'm not going to repeat them again........

 

But to be fair you should go read my previous posts on the subject

[Golfchicago]

Ive deleted some posts and I will be monitoring this post. This game is hard enough as it is. This is a forum for us to share and grow. We don't need to complicate the subject matter with personal jabs. There are a lot of theories and there are a lot of differences of opinion. Let's grow together. We are all trying to play great golf, let's take that approach in our responses.Thanks.

Frank

[slicefixer]

AMEN.......

 

Merry Christmas GC! Hope you get some new stick to test out!

 

 

 

"Students feel good if they think their teacher invented the game. No matter how flawed the method might be people want no they need reassurance that what they are doing is right. The reason most instructors have a "holy than thou" attitude is because their students spend all day telling them how great they are. Eventually, they buy into it and shut off how to learn. That is why the old teacher will use whip the young teacher in a debate. Not always because he knows more but because he has perfected the argument.

 

VERY well said Josh......:)

[Golfchicago]

Slice, Im hopin Santa has a new wedge for me, if not there is always the bst section. :)

 

To everyone...Golfwrx doesn't take sides with anyone. We simply want order and professional conduct. There is nothing wrong with a spirited debate as long as it is in those parameters. Happy holidays to all!

[Boise59]

Ballard worked with Miller from 1979-82, he also worked with Seve in 1988 on leveling his finish (Seve won the Masters that year.)if you send me your e-mail I'll send you a picture. They worked mainly on releasing the right side and a level finish which if you watch Miller videos he still uses. As far as the right side tilt, Ballard advocates that the right side will be lower than the left but no the tilt esposused by Jim Suttie and some other guys. If you thing about it, right handed hitter don't tilt their shoulders. If you also look at pictures of Hogan his shoulders were nearly level as are Jim Colbert, Dent and Justin Leonard.

[Texsport]

I'm in the middle of my winter fitness and swing experimentation schedule.

 

I've been attempting to modify my Ballard concept swing by reducing lateral movement while increasing my turn.

 

So far, either: (1) I don't know what I'm doing, (2) my weight lifting and running are messing me up, or(3) I'm just plain getting old--but---so far, I've never hit so many hooks, shanks and thinned shots in my life!!! I'm even losing my grip during the downswing transition.

 

It's time to seek professional help or try to get back to Ballard---I'm on the fence---but I may not have the resolve or time to work out a new swing.

 

Texsport

[jerry1967]

Butch Harman gives ballard a lot of credit for his teaching and so does jim mclean. leadbetter is a copy of ballard. Jim hardy talks about how he likes ballards teaching. He is the best teacher there is. i might not agree with all his ideas or even understand them but he has helped me a whole bunch

[slicefixer]

Not arguing your point about Miller or Seve......Seve.......he's worked with the whole world at some point in his career......O'Grady/Leadbetter/Spearman/Baker/Jacobs, etc.

 

I'm also NOT arguing that Jimmy Ballard isn't a fine teacher.......he is .......without question.......

 

As for the "tilt"......MY opinion is this.....the right shoulder should be the same amount below the left shoulder as the right hand is below the left.......then its simply a matter of weight distribution as to the amount of body tilt at address.......

 

I worked for 2 years with a Ballard protege in Dallas.......Ballard right down the line......and I'd like to think that I got pretty good at it.......However, from MY experience the body angles at address REQUIRED a lateral slide of the entire body to "load" into the right side.......hard to wind up as the right pivot point "floated"........then I had to drive my entire body laterally (got "on top" of it) and release my right arm to hit it square.......became a fairly low ball fader.......as did a good friend of mine from NC who played @ Carolina who worked with Jimmy......same problems/tendencies......I've watched Sutton hit tons of balls.....same ball flight/tendencies.......same for Colbert......Thompson, etc.

 

I'm NOT saying this is bad because its not........I just found a better way to swing the club for ME that allowed ME to eliminate moving parts that were unnecessary and gave me a more consistent game.....along with the ability to move the ball both ways and vary the trajectory.......simply changed my set-up to a more "natural" tilt and TURNED into my right side......right pivot point stayed solid as a rock and I turned INTO it.......then as I'd eliminated so much lateral movement I wasn't required to move so much laterally to get to my left pivot point and my head could simply remain "quiet" behind the ball........MUCH more "rotary".......more consistent for ME.......

 

As a teacher of our great game for 22 years now I can honestly say that Jimmy Ballard influenced my personal beliefs.......still does.......but not nearly as much as Mr. Hogan/Burke/Venturi, etc. In fact, my OWN observations from studying thousands of hours of video in GREAT detail (and comparing the footage to "information" I'd been told/read/heard) are/were the primary sources of information in forming my own personal views/thoughts about the golf swing.........and IMOP there are simpler and more effective ways to swing a golf club than Ballard's.......IMOP

 

As for the guy that says "Leadbetter copied Ballard"......LOL......you need to go study Leadbetter......VERY little in common.......same for Hardy......almost 0......Harman has drastically changed his "theory" over the past 15 years.....almost 180%.......(he's very good now IMOP, but, wasn't early on.....BIG TIME "hip spinner")......I don't think you'd find any competent teacher who would argue that Ballard's method is WRONG.......but you'd get a great many who'd argue that its not the magical "answer" to the golf swing as some people would contend......

[Texsport]

slicefixer

 

I've been thinking and trying to work on my "connected" turn. As you mentioned earlier in this thread, I do hit my fair share of pulls and pull hooks when I try to nuke irons.

 

I've spoken to my son, a PGA club pro who uses Ballard priciples. He is basically a rt to left player, and advises I try driving my right hip toward the ball on the downswing to stop the "lefts".

 

Of course, his swing and mine aren't the same, although we use similar keys and feels, so I'm not sure whether this might work or not--it's certainly a more rotary move--but is there a hidden danger??

 

Any opinion?

 

Texsport

[slicefixer]

Tex,

 

Depends on WHY your pulling the ball..........as you know there are any number of things that can cause a left tendency.......IF your spinning out (not reaching your left side/left pivot point/left leg) then driving the right hip/knee might well be a quality thing to work on........however, before I'd work on driving the right hip I'd check a couple of things......

 

- Ball position......sometimes 1" can make a HUGE difference.....(I know, I know......NO jokes......hehehe)

 

- Clubface open/shut at address.....grip weak/strong........won't go into the many reasons/combinations that can pull the ball from a combination of these two........just make sure the clubface is square at address and your grip is fundamentally sound......

 

- clubface shutdown/clubshaft simply too steep on the downswing........everything might well be working properly, but, the shaft/club is being delivered from too steep.......add a lil' bit of left forearm rotation to the backswing opening up the face and shallowing the shaft angle and you might strike golf "gold".....

 

- Right hip "sliding" away from the target in the backswing.......Do NOT allow the right hip to slide......feel like your right butt cheek is working "backwards" away from the ball in the takeaway/backswing while maintaining your right knee flex.......then you'll be "turning" INTO your right side properly......Just as with Ballard don't be afraid to let the head rotate/move......just don't let the lower body "float"/slide.......can be a death move for some good players and sentence them to an interesting game of "alternate" shot.....pull.....wipe....pull....wipe......:)....

 

I'd bet one or more of these is the culprit and one/some combination will give you the more "inside delivery" feeling your desiring.....worst case you will at least hit some better shots and then we'll have a definitive "area" to further "visit" about......just make note of what thought/feeling HELPS/feels better then report back........

 

PM me and we'll cuss and discuss!

 

:cheesy:

[Ajgaguy83]

I will be spending all day with Jimmy on January 13th. I will report back with information, pictures, and videos. I have read the thread, and agree with some, disagree with other, thoughts, but want Ballard himself to confirm my opinions. Then I will relay the truths, straight from his mouth.

[Texsport]

Tex,

 

Depends on WHY your pulling the ball..........as you know there are any number of things that can cause a left tendency.......IF your spinning out (not reaching your left side/left pivot point/left leg) then driving the right hip/knee might well be a quality thing to work on........however, before I'd work on driving the right hip I'd check a couple of things......

 

- Ball position......sometimes 1" can make a HUGE difference.....(I know, I know......NO jokes......hehehe)

 

- Clubface open/shut at address.....grip weak/strong........won't go into the many reasons/combinations that can pull the ball from a combination of these two........just make sure the clubface is square at address and your grip is fundamentally sound......

 

- clubface shutdown/clubshaft simply too steep on the downswing........everything might well be working properly, but, the shaft/club is being delivered from too steep.......add a lil' bit of left forearm rotation to the backswing opening up the face and shallowing the shaft angle and you might strike golf "gold".....

 

- Right hip "sliding" away from the target in the backswing.......Do NOT allow the right hip to slide......feel like your right butt cheek is working "backwards" away from the ball in the takeaway/backswing while maintaining your right knee flex.......then you'll be "turning" INTO your right side properly......Just as with Ballard don't be afraid to let the head rotate/move......just don't let the lower body "float"/slide.......can be a death move for some good players and sentence them to an interesting game of "alternate" shot.....pull.....wipe....pull....wipe......:)....

 

I'd bet one or more of these is the culprit and one/some combination will give you the more "inside delivery" feeling your desiring.....worst case you will at least hit some better shots and then we'll have a definitive "area" to further "visit" about......just make note of what thought/feeling HELPS/feels better then report back........

 

PM me and we'll cuss and discuss!

 

:cheesy:

 

slicefixer

 

Thanks for the ideas. I've really got some things to work with now.

Trying to accentuate Ballard ideas may well have led to minimal left arm rotation and some right hip sliding on the backswing. The other area of comcern might be my grip. I sometimes get lazy with my grip in an attempt to keep my arms soft in the backswing---sometimes have the club spinning shut in my hands during the transition move from the top. This probably happens more when I try to max-distance an iron, which is when I pull more shots.

After I get back from my trip I'll get back to you.

Thanks again!

 

Texsport