Golf League OOB, Provisional and Local Rule

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

That doesn't address the original situation I brought up of being wide right on a dogleg left with fairways that start 150 yards from the tee.   The rule discourages players from hitting provisionals, then they get up to where they thought their ball was and realize that going back to the tee is the only option, because there is no spot on the fairway that is not closer to the hole.   The result is either wasting a bunch of time having to go back to the tee, or fudging the rules and dropping closer to the hole.

 

I imagine this situation is quite common on courses with holes set up like that, and would never occur on a course with holes that are mostly straight.

 

Or where fairways start a bit earlier.

 

P.S. It seems to be a short tee shot if it is shorter than 150 yds. Or massively sliced / hooked.

 

 

 

Edited May 11 by Mr. Bean

[sui generis]

4 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

That doesn't address the original situation I brought up of being wide right on a dogleg left with fairways that start 150 yards from the tee.   The rule discourages players from hitting provisionals, then they get up to where they thought their ball was and realize that going back to the tee is the only option, because there is no spot on the fairway that is not closer to the hole.   The result is either wasting a bunch of time having to go back to the tee, or fudging the rules and dropping closer to the hole.

 

I imagine this situation is quite common on courses with holes set up like that, and would never occur on a course with holes that are mostly straight.

 

It's not practical to construct Rules for players who cannot be bothered to learn the Rules to begin with. You've decided that the Rule is stupid and that's that, so rock on. 🙄

[TroyB123]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Not sure I understand the question. I would rather ask who would invoke E-5 with 2 PS in that case when one can take S&D with only 1 PS by hitting a bit farther.

 

Thx for the picture, now I see the situation. Rough in front of the green is not common here, in fact, I cannot just now remember any course around here with such a layout.

S&D is clearly the better option, I agree.   The problem is how the situation played out.   Guy hits it over the green, and is even informed it may be out of bounds.  He walks up there thinking he'll have an E5 drop somewhere on the other side.   Either he ignores the fairway point of the rule and drops it in the light rough, or gets back to his cart on the other side of the green, and drives back to the spot and wastes a bunch of time that wouldn't have been wasted playing by regular rules.

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, sui generis said:

 

It's not practical to construct Rules for players who cannot be bothered to learn the Rules to begin with. You've decided that the Rule is stupid and that's that, so rock on. 🙄

 

I thought he said the E-5 does not cover every situation. Which is very true.

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, TroyB123 said:

S&D is clearly the better option, I agree.   The problem is how the situation played out.   Guy hits it over the green, and is even informed it may be out of bounds.  He walks up there thinking he'll have an E5 drop somewhere on the other side.   Either he ignores the fairway point of the rule and drops it in the light rough, or gets back to his cart on the other side of the green, and drives back to the spot and wastes a bunch of time that wouldn't have been wasted playing by regular rules.

 

To start thinking E-5 after having missed the green from 125 yds instead of hitting a provisional is a stupid idea to begin with. IMHO.

[sui generis]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

To start thinking E-5 after having missed the green from 125 yds instead of hitting a provisional is a stupid idea to begin with. IMHO.

 

You're free to think E-5 is stupid. I think you've been saying for years that it's not used by "real" golfers in Finland, so perhaps you've no experience with E-5 beyond typing about it here.

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

You're free to think E-5 is stupid. I think you've been saying for years that it's not used by "real" golfers in Finland, so perhaps you've no experience with E-5 beyond typing about it here.

 

You seem to read other posters' text the way you please and twist their words. I did not say E-5 is stupid but invoking it in that situation would be stupid IMO for the simple reason that the probability of hitting the green or close to it is for even a mediocre player higher than getting a better score after invoking E-5.

[bluedot]

Some of you are making this a LOT more complicated than it really is.

 

I mentioned this earlier, but the Carolinas Golf Association uses E5 in ALL competitions below the championship level; individual tournaments, four ball tournaments, and interclub matches.  I think it’s safe to say that most players are not only used to E5, but know when to use it and when not to.  It is an option, not a requirement.

 

If I hit my tee shot 150 yds (or less!) into an area that isn’t even to the beginning of the fairway, then I’m hitting a provisional; using E5 would be foolish, even if possible.  On the other hand, if I hit the ball a long way but way off line, then E5 becomes a better option than hitting a provisional.  That’s really all there is to it.

 

All the hand wringing about where to drop if using E5 does NOT match up with my experience AT ALL.  I have yet to encounter a situation where that’s been a problem or a controversy.  The example of a guy that airmails the green, finds that there is OB, and then has to go back because there is nowhere to drop doesn’t resonate with me; of course there isn’t fairway on the other side of the green!  Duh… 
 

I’ll say it again; if you don’t like E5, don’t use it; NOBODY BUT YOU CARES!  But all the angst about E5 skewing results and creating confusion and controversy is just not factual.  Terrible shots skew results and create confusion and controversy; the Rules, including E5 when it’s in effect, are how we resolve that.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, bluedot said:

The example of a guy that airmails the green, finds that there is OB, and then has to go back because there is nowhere to drop doesn’t resonate with me; of course there isn’t fairway on the other side of the green!  Duh… 

 

Did you look at the picture? What the poster wrote was that there was no fairway in front of the green.

 

Duh...

[sui generis]

19 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Did you look at the picture? What the poster wrote was that there was no fairway in front of the green.

 

Duh...

 

E-5 Limits on Location of Relief Area:

Must be in the general area, and

Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=5

 

There is always a ball reference point but there is no requirement that there be a fairway reference point.

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

There is always a ball reference point but there is no requirement that there be a fairway reference point.

 

Indeed. So?

[sui generis]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Indeed. So?

 So, the relief area must only be 1) no closer to the hole and 2) in the general area. The relief area being in the fairway is only a bonus, a lucky happenstance for the player

[Mr. Bean]

16 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 So, the relief area must only be 1) no closer to the hole and 2) in the general area. The relief area being in the fairway is only a bonus, a lucky happenstance for the player

 

How do you determine the relief area with no fairway reference point?

[sui generis]

19 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

How do you determine the relief area with no fairway reference point?

 

Ball reference point & general area + no closer to the hole. 

 

Imagine a par 3 without much fairway between tee and green. Player's ball goes OB over the green 50 yards beyond the hole. (We now have a ball refernce point.) Relief area is 50 yards or more from the hole anywhere in the general area. The relief area may or may not be in the limited bit of fairway.

[nsxguy]

[deleted]

Edited May 12 by nsxguy

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

 

Edited May 12 by nsxguy

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Ball reference point & general area + no closer to the hole. 

 

Imagine a par 3 without much fairway between tee and green. Player's ball goes OB over the green 50 yards beyond the hole. (We now have a ball refernce point.) Relief area is 50 yards or more from the hole anywhere in the general area. The relief area may or may not be in the limited bit of fairway.

 

That is not what the text and pictures in E-5 say.

[sui generis]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is not what the text and pictures in E-5 say.

 

That's only an example of a common situation. See the Rule where it describes where the relief area must be.

[Mr. Bean]

10 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

That's only an example of a common situation. See the Rule where it describes where the relief area must be.

 

E-5 says that you need two reference points in order to determine the relief area: a) ball reference point and b) fairway reference point.

 

Where do you get the idea only one reference point is enough?

 

Edited May 12 by Mr. Bean

[TroyB123]

12 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

E-5 Limits on Location of Relief Area:

Must be in the general area, and

Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=cp&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=5

 

There is always a ball reference point but there is no requirement that there be a fairway reference point.

 

Edited May 12 by TroyB123

[Mr. Bean]

24 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

If there is no reasonable way to play in a line back from the hole through the ball reference point , then you must find a fairway reference point.   

 

Where exactly is that said in the E-5?

[sui generis]

27 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

If there is no reasonable way to play in a line back from the hole through the ball reference point , then you must find a fairway reference point.   

My imagination fails to conjure up a golf hole design at which there is no piece of general area that is not equidistant or further from the hole location.

[TroyB123]

15 hours ago, bluedot said:

Some of you are making this a LOT more complicated than it really is.

 

I mentioned this earlier, but the Carolinas Golf Association uses E5 in ALL competitions below the championship level; individual tournaments, four ball tournaments, and interclub matches.  I think it’s safe to say that most players are not only used to E5, but know when to use it and when not to.  It is an option, not a requirement.

 

If I hit my tee shot 150 yds (or less!) into an area that isn’t even to the beginning of the fairway, then I’m hitting a provisional; using E5 would be foolish, even if possible.  On the other hand, if I hit the ball a long way but way off line, then E5 becomes a better option than hitting a provisional.  That’s really all there is to it.

 

All the hand wringing about where to drop if using E5 does NOT match up with my experience AT ALL.  I have yet to encounter a situation where that’s been a problem or a controversy.  The example of a guy that airmails the green, finds that there is OB, and then has to go back because there is nowhere to drop doesn’t resonate with me; of course there isn’t fairway on the other side of the green!  Duh… 
 

I’ll say it again; if you don’t like E5, don’t use it; NOBODY BUT YOU CARES!  But all the angst about E5 skewing results and creating confusion and controversy is just not factual.  Terrible shots skew results and create confusion and controversy; the Rules, including E5 when it’s in effect, are how we resolve that.

My example regarding the start of the fairway was two drives that covered the distance to the start of the fairway easily but the ball went far enough right on a dogleg left to not have a fairway reference point short of going back to a tee box.  I’m guessing it’s not uncommon on that hole since two players did it in my foursome.  I’m also guessing that most players in that situation decided on a common sense drop somewhere along the fairway that was technically in breach of the rule.  
 

In those cga events, how many players are actually following that rule to the letter?  Are they going back to the tee box if they find their ball in a thick forest where the only unplayable option is back to the tee?  Are they never dropping closer to the hole on the fairway on dogleg holes?  Are they never dropping in light rough that is back on the line from a reference point?

 

Those are all technically breaches of the rule but are common sense ways to approximate the spirit of the rule.   I wouldn’t call anyone out on it and I’m guessing 95% of players wouldn’t. 

[TroyB123]

51 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Where exactly is that said in the E-5?

Edited May 12 by TroyB123

[TroyB123]

43 minutes ago, sui generis said:

My imagination fails to conjure up a golf hole design at which there is no piece of general area that is not equidistant or further from the hole location.

The relief area is a 2 club length wide line behind the ball reference point to the fairway reference point.  The rule is specific that this is the only relief areas.  It does not allow for you to find a spot anywhere in the general area that is not closer to the hole from one of the reference points. 

Edited May 12 by TroyB123

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

The rules say there are two relief areas.  One straight back from the ball reference point.  One straight back from the fairway reference point.  If the ball reference point is in some thick brush or forest, then it’s not going to be a reasonable option.  That leaves finding a fairway reference point as the only other option. 

 

I wonder where did you get that from as it is completely false. Please quote the text you are referring to from the Rules.

 

Edited May 12 by Mr. Bean

[TroyB123]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I wonder where did you get that from as it is completely false. Please quote the text you are referring to from the Rules.

 

“When a player’s ball has not been found or is known or virtually certain to be out of bounds, the player may proceed as follows rather than proceeding under stroke and distance.

For two penalty strokes, the player may take relief by dropping the original ball or another ball in this relief area(see Rule 14.3):

Two Estimated Reference Points:

a. Ball Reference Point: The point where the original ball is estimated to have:

• Come to rest on the course, or
• Last crossed the edge of the course boundary to go out of bounds.

b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

For purposes of this Local Rule, “fairway” means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less.

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less.

Size of Relief Area Based on Reference Points: Anywhere between:

• A line from the hole through the ball reference point (and within two club-lengths to the outside of that line), and
• A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengthsto the fairway side of that line).        

     
    But with these limits:

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

[Mr. Bean]

So, where in that text it is said that there are two relief areas??

 

There is only ONE relief area and in order to determine it you need to have TWO reference points. End of story.

[TroyB123]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

So, where in that text it is said that there are two relief areas??

 

There is only ONE relief area and in order to determine it you need to have TWO reference points. End of story.

I see.  I was misreading the in between part. 
 

Like you were saying you do need a fairway reference point established and that isn’t likely to help find a relief spot if ithar reference point is back on the tee. 
 

 

 

[Imp]

[Redacted]

Edited May 12 by Imp