Golf League OOB, Provisional and Local Rule

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

I believe the intent of E5 was to make the rules in casual play reflect the way people actually play the game, and in casual play, almost nobody makes the “Walk of Shame” when their ball is UNEXPECTEDLY lost or OB.  There are obvious pace of play reasons for this., but I think “unexpectedly” was driving the bus on E5.

 

The substitution of E5 for hitting a provisional when you KNOW the original ball is OB or highly likely to be lost is, I think, unavoidable if you are going to have E5 at all.  I don’t think there is a workable way to write the MLR to cover one without the other.

 

 

Yeah, and bear in mind I'm not advocating for anything in particular. I'm not saying we should take away E-5. As mentioned, I use it. 

 

I just think the intent of the rule is, like you, to avoid the walk of shame. It's NOT in my opinion to basically give someone a free ball in the fairway when they just blasted a ball off the planet and are scared they're going to do it again.

 

And I also don't see a workable way to change the wording of the rule to avoid it. 

 

So I'm just whining 😉 

[nsxguy]

9 hours ago, Newby said:

I am a little puzzled with this but not saying you're wrong.

 

The words in E-5 say 

 

a. Ball Reference Point: The point where the original ball is estimated to have: ..........

 

 

I guess I'm going off the logical progression and the last sentence in the MLR example - " A player may use this option to take relief for a provisional ball that has not been found or is known or virtually certain to be out of bounds".

 

That says to me the (last ?) provisional is the ball to take the E-5 relief, not the original. And since it would have laid 3, adding 2 and dropping in the relief area the player now lies 5, hitting 6. Not so ?

 

So if a player hits a provisional ball and NEITHER the original nor the provisional is found, to ME, it doesn't make sense to allow the player to use E-5 and lie (only) 3, hitting 4 using the original.

 

Nor does it make sense for him to hit an original AND a provisional and then a 2nd provisional (3rd ball in total) and then use E-5 for the original. It's not a driving range.

 

So I'd think he MUST use the last provisional, add 2, then drop in RA.

 

WithOUT E-5, if a player were to hit 2 provisionals and, not finding either of the previous 2 balls and only the 3rd ball was found, he'd be lying 5, no ? So why, with E-5 in effect, would he be able to use the original and be lying 3 in the fairway. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

Anwyay, that's the way I'm reading it. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

[bluedot]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I guess I'm going off the logical progression and the last sentence in the MLR example - " A player may use this option to take relief for a provisional ball that has not been found or is known or virtually certain to be out of bounds".

 

That says to me the (last ?) provisional is the ball to take the E-5 relief, not the original. And since it would have laid 3, adding 2 and dropping in the relief area the player now lies 5, hitting 6. Not so ?

 

So if a player hits a provisional ball and NEITHER the original nor the provisional is found, to ME, it doesn't make sense to allow the player to use E-5 and lie (only) 3, hitting 4 using the original.

 

Nor does it make sense for him to hit an original AND a provisional and then a 2nd provisional (3rd ball in total) and then use E-5 for the original. It's not a driving range.

 

So I'd think he MUST use the last provisional, add 2, then drop in RA.

 

WithOUT E-5, if a player were to hit 2 provisionals and, not finding either of the previous 2 balls and only the 3rd ball was found, he'd be lying 5, no ? So why, with E-5 in effect, would he be able to use the original and be lying 3 in the fairway. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

Anwyay, that's the way I'm reading it. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

If E5 is in effect, it goes away as an option if you hit a provisional, and there’s no going back for that ball.  So the guy who hits two provisionals can opt to use E5 only for the second provisional, not the original ball or the first provisional.  When he uses E5 for the second provisional ball, he is lying 7, and his next shot will be his 8th.

 

Which is why, in most cases where E5:is in effect, players opt to use it instead of a provisional.  Lying 3 and hitting 4 from the fairway is painful, but not as much as pumping one or more provisionals out as well.

 

And fwiw, the announcement by the starter in the tournaments I play that use E5 refer to it as the “alternate stroke and distance penalty”.

[Newby]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I guess I'm going off the logical progression and the last sentence in the MLR example - " A player may use this option to take relief for a provisional ball that has not been found or is known or virtually certain to be out of bounds".

 

That says to me the (last ?) provisional is the ball to take the E-5 relief, not the original. And since it would have laid 3, adding 2 and dropping in the relief area the player now lies 5, hitting 6. Not so ?

 

So if a player hits a provisional ball and NEITHER the original nor the provisional is found, to ME, it doesn't make sense to allow the player to use E-5 and lie (only) 3, hitting 4 using the original.

 

Nor does it make sense for him to hit an original AND a provisional and then a 2nd provisional (3rd ball in total) and then use E-5 for the original. It's not a driving range.

 

So I'd think he MUST use the last provisional, add 2, then drop in RA.

 

WithOUT E-5, if a player were to hit 2 provisionals and, not finding either of the previous 2 balls and only the 3rd ball was found, he'd be lying 5, no ? So why, with E-5 in effect, would he be able to use the original and be lying 3 in the fairway. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

Anwyay, that's the way I'm reading it. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

Makes sense

[Newby]

6 hours ago, bluedot said:

And fwiw, the announcement by the starter in the tournaments I play that use E5 refer to it as the “alternate stroke and distance penalty”.

Surely 'alternative' ?

[bluedot]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Surely 'alternative' ?

Nope.

[Imp]

13 hours ago, bluedot said:

If E5 is in effect, it goes away as an option if you hit a provisional, and there’s no going back for that ball.  So the guy who hits two provisionals can opt to use E5 only for the second provisional, not the original ball or the first provisional.  When he uses E5 for the second provisional ball, he is lying 7, and his next shot will be his 8th.

Don't believe that to be the right maths. 

 

1st shot is off tee. *MAY* be lost or OB. Status is unknown, E5 will only be used, hitting 4 from 2 clubs in the fairway, if they decided to go forth at this point. They chose not to. E5 cannot be applied for any strokes on this 1st ball because it only takes place a) if they didn't hit a provisional, OR b) they proceeded to the point where it was thought to be lost/OB at this moment in time and chose to play from there. Remember, the player has a choice to NOT proceed and use E5. It's optional. 

 

2nd shot off tee is the provisional of tee. Now, they leave tee box.

 

Get to area where balls are thought to be lost/OB.  Neither are found. 

 

Since neither are found after a three minute search... you proceed at this point as if the provisional was #3 off the tee. Player has 2 options:

 

1) Surprised I've gotten this far and no one mentioned this... Return to where the ball was last played and player would be hitting 5. 

2) Optional E5, and hit 6 from the fairway. Not 7, not 8. Not 5. 

 

E5 was implemented as an OPTION to the player instead of having to return to the place where the ball was last played, for one stroke, in the goal of saving this time. I believe it would be against the RoG to REPLACE the choice to go back to the tee by the committee, but it certainly makes it frwoned upon. *THIS* is exactly where the time savings is ... for those that still want to continue saying "I don't see any savings". Search for three minutes, take a couple minutes to walk back to the tee (imagine no carts), re-tee, hit, and send it OB again? You are now out of position. Play E5? No walk back to the tee.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3 by Imp

[bluedot]

5 minutes ago, Imp said:

Don't believe that to be the right maths. 

 

1st shot is off tee. *MAY* be lost or OB. Status is unknown, E5 will only be used, hitting 4 from 2 clubs in the fairway, if they decided to go forth at this point. They chose not to. E5 cannot be applied for any strokes on this 1st ball because it only takes place a) if they didn't hit a provisional, OR b) they proceeded to the point where it was thought to be lost/OB at this moment in time and chose to play from there. Remember, the player has a choice to NOT proceed and use E5. It's optional. 

 

2nd shot off tee is the provisional of tee. Now, they leave tee box.

 

Get to area where balls are thought to be lost/OB.  Neither are found. 

 

Since neither are found after a three minute search... you proceed at this point as if the provisional was #3 off the tee. Player has 2 options:

 

1) Surprised I've gotten this far and no one mentioned this... Return to where the ball was last played and player would be hitting 5. 

2) Optional E5, and hit 6 from the fairway. Not 7, not 8. Not 5. 

 

E5 was implemented as an OPTION to the player instead of having to return to the place where the ball was last played, for one stroke, in the goal of saving this time. *THIS* is exactly where the time savings is ... for those that still want to continue saying "I don't see any savings". Search for three minutes, take a couple minutes to walk back to the tee (imagine no carts), re-tee, hit, and send it OB again? You are now out of position. Play E5? No walk back to the tee.

 

 

 

 

 

In the hypothetical to which I was responding, the player had hit his original ball, then two provisionals, with all three either lost or OB.  The player uses E5 for the SECOND provisional (he can’t now for either the original ball or the first provisional) and drops 2 club lengths into the fairway.

 

He has now hit three shots, and incurred 4 penalty strokes; 1 for the original ball, 1 for the first provisional, and 2 for the drop utilizing E5 for the second provisional.  E5 carries a two stroke penalty, not one.

 

He lies 7 after the E5 drop, and will be making his 8th stroke.

[Imp]

Ahh, I missed the two. Thanks. Carry on. 😉

Edited May 3 by Imp

[RSLP]

Beer leagues should never give an option to go back.  

Amateur  or professional events should follow the applicable rules of golf for where the competition is.

 

[TroyB123]

I've always thought this was a badly formed rule, and I guess that's why they don't allow it in any serious play.   I played in a casual, but for a good bit of money round, where it was being played on a course no one knew well.

 

A couple guys hit the ball far right into deep brush on a hard dogleg left.    The fairway started pretty far from the tees, and when they got up to where they thought their balls were, there was no point on the fairway that is equidistance to where their balls were likely to be.   There was no real way to utilize E5 here, so back to the tee was the only option.   

 

How many people are actually going to play that correctly and not just drop on the fairway that is significantly closer to the hole than where their ball ended up?   

 

Another instance came up where someone airmailed the green from 125.   A guy was up by the green already, and saw that it was just OB, but didn't say anything because he assumed he'd use the E5 rule without thinking it through.   There was no fairway on that side of the hole, and fairway ended about 40 yards in front of the hole, so after lots of conversation, his best option was obviously to go back to spot he hit from.  If normal rules were being played, he would have hit a provisional in this case, or someone would have told him to hit another.

 

Both situations created a mess where provisionals weren't hit when they otherwise would have been without E5, and the only options were to waste a bunch of time or to fudge the rule.   I'm guessing 90% of players playing the E5 rule are going to fudge it a bit in those circumstances.  If that's the case, why even have such a rule?

 

 

 

[Halebopp]

3 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

The fairway started pretty far from the tees, and when they got up to where they thought their balls were, there was no point on the fairway that is equidistance to where their balls were likely to be.   There was no real way to utilize E5 here, so back to the tee was the only option.   

 

There's no requirement to have any part of the fairway equidistant from the hole. You just need any area on that hole cut to fairway height or less that's nearest to the ball reference point. So, it could be some maintenance road or a tee box further away from the hole.

 

Naturally one would need to know if those other areas have been cut to fairway height.

[sui generis]

3 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

I've always thought this was a badly formed rule

 

Please rewrite E-5 for us. We'll be happy to submit your suggestion to the ruling bodies.

[bluedot]

3 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

I've always thought this was a badly formed rule, and I guess that's why they don't allow it in any serious play.   I played in a casual, but for a good bit of money round, where it was being played on a course no one knew well.

 

A couple guys hit the ball far right into deep brush on a hard dogleg left.    The fairway started pretty far from the tees, and when they got up to where they thought their balls were, there was no point on the fairway that is equidistance to where their balls were likely to be.   There was no real way to utilize E5 here, so back to the tee was the only option.   

 

How many people are actually going to play that correctly and not just drop on the fairway that is significantly closer to the hole than where their ball ended up?   

 

Another instance came up where someone airmailed the green from 125.   A guy was up by the green already, and saw that it was just OB, but didn't say anything because he assumed he'd use the E5 rule without thinking it through.   There was no fairway on that side of the hole, and fairway ended about 40 yards in front of the hole, so after lots of conversation, his best option was obviously to go back to spot he hit from.  If normal rules were being played, he would have hit a provisional in this case, or someone would have told him to hit another.

 

Both situations created a mess where provisionals weren't hit when they otherwise would have been without E5, and the only options were to waste a bunch of time or to fudge the rule.   I'm guessing 90% of players playing the E5 rule are going to fudge it a bit in those circumstances.  If that's the case, why even have such a rule?

 

 

 

Wouldn’t you agree that the two situations you’ve cited are fairly unusual?  
 

Fwiw, I’ve played 50+ tournament rounds, both individual and four ball, with E5 in effect, and not only have I never seen a situation like the ones you describe, but I’ve never even seen an issue with it.  I don’t see guys fudge the rule when they drop or anything like that.  
 

The rule was meant PRIMARILY for casual play so that a ball that was UNEXPECTEDLY lost or OB would not require the golfer to either go back to the previous spot (which almost nobody ever did anyway) OR simply not play by the Rules of Golf.  In other words, it’s designed to provide a Rules option that is more like the way casual rounds are actually played.  
 

And in that regard, I think it was not only wise and needed, but well written.  That doesn’t mean there aren’t potential issues; I think that’s probably true of any rule in any sport.  But on balance, it’s a good option.

[TroyB123]

55 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

There's no requirement to have any part of the fairway equidistant from the hole. You just need any area on that hole cut to fairway height or less that's nearest to the ball reference point. So, it could be some maintenance road or a tee box further away from the hole.

 

Naturally one would need to know if those other areas have been cut to fairway height.

That also makes the rule open to a bit of ambiguity.   I'm sure there are plenty of instances where the nearest area of fairway height may well be on a different hole that may be completely blocked out by trees or a nursery in the woods.   Since it's written as a "no choosies" type rule, people should have to play from those areas instead of bringing it back to the playing holes fairway.  I doubt anyone actually does that though, but they should if they are following the letter of the rule.

[TroyB123]

43 minutes ago, bluedot said:

Wouldn’t you agree that the two situations you’ve cited are fairly unusual?  
 

Fwiw, I’ve played 50+ tournament rounds, both individual and four ball, with E5 in effect, and not only have I never seen a situation like the ones you describe, but I’ve never even seen an issue with it.  I don’t see guys fudge the rule when they drop or anything like that.  
 

The rule was meant PRIMARILY for casual play so that a ball that was UNEXPECTEDLY lost or OB would not require the golfer to either go back to the previous spot (which almost nobody ever did anyway) OR simply not play by the Rules of Golf.  In other words, it’s designed to provide a Rules option that is more like the way casual rounds are actually played.  
 

And in that regard, I think it was not only wise and needed, but well written.  That doesn’t mean there aren’t potential issues; I think that’s probably true of any rule in any sport.  But on balance, it’s a good option.

I haven't played a lot under that rule, but saw both those happen on one of the 3 rounds I played in that event.   Another area of confusion and ambiguity is when your ball goes into the woods.   Do you drop on the fairway about where it went in, or do you assume you went your typical distance and drop up where that would be?   There is not really a good way of knowing if it made it through the trees for a while, or if it hit early and went down somewhere.

 

I'm sure it works fine for a friendly foursome game where everyone is relaxed about the rules.   When you implement it in money game involving 50 people (including a lot of high handicappers) and you feel some obligation to protect the field, which groups are making the guy go back to the tee when there isn't a good option for E5 vs just dropping on the fairway somewhere?

[TroyB123]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

Please rewrite E-5 for us. We'll be happy to submit your suggestion to the ruling bodies.

Playing provisionals is not that tough or time consuming.   Couple that with more liberal use of red stakes, and there is no need for a rule that can have so much ambiguity.

[bluedot]

8 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

I haven't played a lot under that rule, but saw both those happen on one of the 3 rounds I played in that event.   Another area of confusion and ambiguity is when your ball goes into the woods.   Do you drop on the fairway about where it went in, or do you assume you went your typical distance and drop up where that would be?   There is not really a good way of knowing if it made it through the trees for a while, or if it hit early and went down somewhere.

 

I'm sure it works fine for a friendly foursome game where everyone is relaxed about the rules.   When you implement it in money game involving 50 people (including a lot of high handicappers) and you feel some obligation to protect the field, which groups are making the guy go back to the tee when there isn't a good option for E5 vs just dropping on the fairway somewhere?

The first question is not really a question at all; you don’t take a drop from a red staked area at the point where your ball would have gone if you hadn’t rinsed it. An E5 drop is from your best guess about where the ball went OB or was lost, not where it would have ended up if that hadn’t happened.

 

And the issue with provisionals isn’t that it takes too much time; it’s what happens when you didn’t hit one and UNEXPECTEDLY have a ball that is lost or OB.   The Walk of Shame DOES take a long time.

 

If you have 50 guys a money game and you’re worried that E5 will somehow skew the results, there is a simple remedy; don’t use E5.  End of story.  If you use it and it DOES somehow skew the results, that’s a you problem, not an E5 problem.

 

And fwiw, how many guys that are using either E5 or having to play their provisionals, which comes out EXACTLY the same in strokes, are winning money anyway?

[betarhoalphadelta]

24 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

That also makes the rule open to a bit of ambiguity.   I'm sure there are plenty of instances where the nearest area of fairway height may well be on a different hole that may be completely blocked out by trees or a nursery in the woods.   Since it's written as a "no choosies" type rule, people should have to play from those areas instead of bringing it back to the playing holes fairway.  I doubt anyone actually does that though, but they should if they are following the letter of the rule.

 

Have you read the rule? You don't have to drop in the fairway, or a fairway. That is usually the most advantageous drop point, but not required. You do need some fairway mown grass to determine your potential drop area, which is actually pretty massive:

 

 

And as always, if your area of relief is something that you consider unplayable, you ALWAYS have the option to go back and take S&D. 

[TroyB123]

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

The first question is not really a question at all; you don’t take a drop from a red staked area at the point where your ball would have gone if you hadn’t rinsed it. An E5 drop is from your best guess about where the ball went OB or was lost, not where it would have ended up if that hadn’t happened.

 

The red stake rule is clear.   If a ball crosses into the trees, then it is often not going to find OB.   So, you are going to have to figure out where the ball is likely to be lost.   That's probably not where it crossed the tree line, but hard to guess how far it kept going.   So where is the proper place to drop if there is a 100+ yard stretch of where it may be lost?

 

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

If you have 50 guys a money game and you’re worried that E5 will somehow skew the results, there is a simple remedy; don’t use E5.  End of story.  If you use it and it DOES somehow skew the results, that’s a you problem, not an E5 problem.

 

And fwiw, how many guys that are using either E5 or having to play their provisionals, which comes out EXACTLY the same in strokes, are winning money anyway?

 

I wouldn't choose to use it.   My problem is the ambiguity associated with it means everyone is playing it differently.

 

There are a lot of high handicaps in this event, they can win some money with some doubles and triples!

[sui generis]

4 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

Playing provisionals is not that tough or time consuming.   Couple that with more liberal use of red stakes, and there is no need for a rule that can have so much ambiguity.

 

I didn't think that you might have a better idea. It's tough to rewrite a Rule tailored for people who can't be bothered to figure out the original in the first place.

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

The red stake rule is clear.   If a ball crosses into the trees, then it is often not going to find OB.   So, you are going to have to figure out where the ball is likely to be lost.   That's probably not where it crossed the tree line, but hard to guess how far it kept going.   So where is the proper place to drop if there is a 100+ yard stretch of where it may be lost?

 

Where would you look your ball from? That's where you take the reference point from.

 

This is not an extraordinary situation. Sometimes you just have to make your best guess.

 

  

10 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

 My problem is the ambiguity associated with it means everyone is playing it differently.

 

 

I do not like this LR at all for that same reason. On paper it is already somewhat difficult to get a grasp on but on the course it can be a nightmare. Not to mention how much time it may take when distances are being measured from various points. Aaarrgghhh....

 

Then again, there are many Rules people apply differently because they do not know better.

 

Edited May 11 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

16 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

Another instance came up where someone airmailed the green from 125.   A guy was up by the green already, and saw that it was just OB, but didn't say anything because he assumed he'd use the E5 rule without thinking it through.   There was no fairway on that side of the hole, and fairway ended about 40 yards in front of the hole, so after lots of conversation, his best option was obviously to go back to spot he hit from. 

 

Having read E-5 carefully I cannot not find any requirement of the fairway reference point having to be equidistant with the ball reference point. This is what is said in the text:

 

(b) Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

So, in your case the player should have determined the point of fairway that is closest to the ball reference point (where the ball was estimated to have gone OB). That point would not have been equidistant with the ball reference point but according to that text it is not a requirement.

 

P.S. It sure makes a funny looking arc...

 

EDIT: I need to ask, was the putting green limited by rough altogether or only on that side? I have never seen a PG not surrounded by fairway (or foregreen, which is equal to fairway when E-5 is to be applied).

 

And what does "fairway ended about 40 yards in front of the hole" mean? Is it 40 yds in front of the green or the hole? How far was the OB line from the green? Why does the fairway end? Is it a par3? I guess not if someone was already by the green but I wonder how a fairway can end in front of the green it it is a par4 or par5. A picture would be nice as I cannot really picture this in my head.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

12 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

That also makes the rule open to a bit of ambiguity.   I'm sure there are plenty of instances where the nearest area of fairway height may well be on a different hole 

 

That point has to be on the hole being played:

 

(b) Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

No wonder people play it differently if they do not even bother to read the darn Rule... 😉

 

Edited May 11 by Mr. Bean

[sui generis]

How tough is it to do (or not do) this:

 

When a ball has been lost outside a penalty area or is out of bounds, provided you do not have a provisional ball in play, you may use this Local Rule, Alternative to Stroke-and-Distance. (MLR E-5) 

 

1) Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. 

 

2) From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. 

 

3) Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc. 

Add two penalty strokes.

 

You're welcome. 😉

[Mr. Bean]

48 minutes ago, sui generis said:

How tough is it to do (or not do) this:

 

When a ball has been lost outside a penalty area or is out of bounds, provided you do not have a provisional ball in play, you may use this Local Rule, Alternative to Stroke-and-Distance. (MLR E-5) 

 

1) Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. 

 

2) From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. 

 

3) Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc. 

Add two penalty strokes.

 

You're welcome. 😉

 

 I think the difficulties start to arise once a ball is lost or OB behind the putting green, especially on par3's. At that point it takes time to really measure / estimate the distances correctly.

 

Besides, as I pointed out earlier, in such cases it is not always an equidistant arc. In the pictures presented in the MLR's everything seems very straightforward but things can be way more complicated, fortunately quite seldom.

[sui generis]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

 I think the difficulties start to arise once a ball is lost or OB behind the putting green, especially on par3's. At that point it takes time to really measure / estimate the distances correctly.

 

Besides, as I pointed out earlier, in such cases it is not always an equidistant arc. In the pictures presented in the MLR's everything seems very straightforward but things can be way more complicated, fortunately quite seldom.

Well, as it is with some things . . . they mighn't work if one doen't want them to. 😉

[TroyB123]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Having read E-5 carefully I cannot not find any requirement of the fairway reference point having to be equidistant with the ball reference point. This is what is said in the text:

 

(b) Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

So, in your case the player should have determined the point of fairway that is closest to the ball reference point (where the ball was estimated to have gone OB). That point would not have been equidistant with the ball reference point but according to that text it is not a requirement.

 

P.S. It sure makes a funny looking arc...

 

EDIT: I need to ask, was the putting green limited by rough altogether or only on that side? I have never seen a PG not surrounded by fairway (or foregreen, which is equal to fairway when E-5 is to be applied).

 

And what does "fairway ended about 40 yards in front of the hole" mean? Is it 40 yds in front of the green or the hole? How far was the OB line from the green? Why does the fairway end? Is it a par3? I guess not if someone was already by the green but I wonder how a fairway can end in front of the green it it is a par4 or par5. A picture would be nice as I cannot really picture this in my head.

 

 

 

 

 

My example wasn't at our home course, and I never have played that rule there.   But we have 3 par 5s and a par 4 that have large areas of rough between the fairway and green.

 

In the picture I attached, the fairways are painted green in the winter, and those are the areas cut to fairway length.

 

If you hit from the green dot, and the red dot is where it is lost or went OB, then the only proper way to use E5 is to go back to the purple dot, which would probably be a worse option than going back to the green dot and hitting stroke and distance.   How many people are using E5 and actually playing it by the rules in that case?   

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, TroyB123 said:

My example wasn't at our home course, and I never have played that rule there.   But we have 3 par 5s and a par 4 that have large areas of rough between the fairway and green.

 

In the picture I attached, the fairways are painted green in the winter, and those are the areas cut to fairway length.

 

If you hit from the green dot, and the red dot is where it is lost or went OB, then the only proper way to use E5 is to go back to the purple dot, which would probably be a worse option than going back to the green dot and hitting stroke and distance.   How many people are using E5 and actually playing it by the rules in that case?   

 

Not sure I understand the question. I would rather ask who would invoke E-5 with 2 PS in that case when one can take S&D with only 1 PS by hitting a bit farther.

 

Thx for the picture, now I see the situation. Rough in front of the green is not common here, in fact, I cannot just now remember any course around here with such a layout.

[TroyB123]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

How tough is it to do (or not do) this:

 

When a ball has been lost outside a penalty area or is out of bounds, provided you do not have a provisional ball in play, you may use this Local Rule, Alternative to Stroke-and-Distance. (MLR E-5) 

 

1) Estimate the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds. 

 

2) From that spot, follow an arc equidistant from the flagstick to the nearest edge of the fairway, then extend that arc further by two club-lengths into the fairway. 

 

3) Drop anywhere in the general area behind that arc. 

Add two penalty strokes.

 

You're welcome. 😉

That doesn't address the original situation I brought up of being wide right on a dogleg left with fairways that start 150 yards from the tee.   The rule discourages players from hitting provisionals, then they get up to where they thought their ball was and realize that going back to the tee is the only option, because there is no spot on the fairway that is not closer to the hole.   The result is either wasting a bunch of time having to go back to the tee, or fudging the rules and dropping closer to the hole.

 

I imagine this situation is quite common on courses with holes set up like that, and would never occur on a course with holes that are mostly straight.