Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[spider]

Be careful that slow motion is Hogan moving in slow motion not a regular speed move slowed down for viewing. He does that in the other video too and both times his slow motion swing iMHO is not really close to his real time swing.

 

Looking forward to responses to your question though as well. :)

 

You are missing a fantastic opportunity IMHO to get an idea of Hogans' intention as he swings. Of course it's not the same.....what you are seeing is the forces of acceleration minus the speed and energy of the swinging clubs mass. Be careful you don't dismiss things before you have a chance to learn from them.

 

He shows the entire swing....right down to the little slap he gives it to compliment the rotation.

 

Excellent points as usual Martinez. I don't mean to dismiss the move Hogan does in slow motion only to let jduncanm3 know it was hogan performing in slow motion.

 

It did help me a lot to see that hogan felt or what it appeared to me that he felt more turning with the hips to begin... then a move with that right arm to lower the plane into the ball. Especially from someone who gets " underplane... in to out" quite often. :) I will let you experts continue the informative discussion. It is well above my hackers view.

 

Great discussion. Keep it going!!!

[JD3]

[

You are missing a fantastic opportunity IMHO to get an idea of Hogans' intention as he swings. Of course it's not the same.....what you are seeing is the forces of acceleration minus the speed and energy of the swinging clubs mass. Be careful you don't dismiss things before you have a chance to learn from them.

 

He shows the entire swing....right down to the little slap he gives it to compliment the rotation.

Agreed.

 

And the intent I see at the start of the downswing is:

 

- press into the right instep, which moves the hips towards the target;

- simultaneously drop the right elbow down and somewhat forward which flattens the shaft angle

- when the right elbow reaches a point adjecent to the right hip and has stopped dropping, transition from the hips being pressed by the rear foot into actively turning them

- at this point -- 1:10 in this video

-- go ahead and turn your hips and arms thru impact with all the rotary power you've got.

 

What I think may be occurring is that the immediate dropping of the rear elbow accompanied with the rear instep press, puts the club in the perfect position for that moment when the rotary portion of the swing takes over. At that point the only motion left is a rotary one, with the arms, hips and torso.

[martinez]

Love the clubface position here...absolute perfection.

 

This has given me a new perspective on the left release.

 

 

I wuz hoping you see it...I'm guessing it changes quite a bit of what you were thinking...This is a VIP pic Martinez...good one to save.

 

Yeah....I feel like that with the club, but I get nowhere near it. I'm thinking about how open his chest is to his line of flight. I will have to change my whole relationship to the target to get there.....I was thinking it was more a timing issue LOL.

 

Alfred get the Batmobile, I'm off to the range.

[magnum184]

Serious question I'd look forward to everyone's opinion: at the start of the downswing, do you think Hogan did anything actively with his arms? I know he states that the downswing starts with the lower body, but when you see him rehearse the downswing movements in these videos, he appears to be coordinating the lower body movement with arm movement: specifically dropping the rear elbow downward and somewhat forward:

 

 

 

Is this "side arm" throwing motion essential? Or is arm movement essential at this point but it's characterized differently?

 

I came upon this question because when practising I note that if I allow my arms to remain passive from the top (i.e. wait for body momentum to bring them into hitting position), at times I find they can stay too high into the downswing. The result is I need slow my body turn down during impact to allow my arms to catch up. This also tends to bias toward a more "down the line" release. I especially don't want to be slowing my body turn (or anything) into impact.

 

Just looking for verification because I'm thinking that going into the wrong direction with an active arm move would be highly troublesome if it's not correct.

 

Thanks.

 

 

No. Nothing with the arms. It's all a response from the transition. Hogan didn't force it. Some do. But, he didn't. The slow motion videos show it too. What you see at impact, the little "pop", is nothing more than "show". Something to entertain the audience. In the real swing, the movements are coordinated with speed to provide the "pop". Not enough in those slow motion swings to do it the way he normally does it. Would you rather see the ball just roll of the face?

 

If you want, you may try to simulate a 9:00 backswing. Make sure you have adequate width, left arm out. Start the change of direction with your lowerbody while keeping your left arm extended and extending out. Did you feel it in the left lat? Did you get a reaction? You would ideally like to be in a position to benefit from something like this. A reaction to the pivot. Makes it a bit simpler. Checking on the width can sometimes help in your situation. See below perhaps.

 

 

 

I don't know what kind of shape you are nearing the top of your swing, which makes it difficult to advise what type of transitioning move you are capable of doing. Because of where Hogan's was, his upperbody movements after transition were reaction to his lowerbody; club shallowing, right shoulder lowering, right forearm, club shallowing, etc... Pure reaction to unwinding.

 

Other times, using an arm motion can be helpful. But, it's a little more complicated.

 

Maybe mess around with it until you feel something in your left lat area if you want to get a glimpse of what Hogan felt and the free ride he spoke of.

[fats]

Love the clubface position here...absolute perfection.

 

This has given me a new perspective on the left release.

 

 

I wuz hoping you see it...I'm guessing it changes quite a bit of what you were thinking...This is a VIP pic Martinez...good one to save.

 

Yeah....I feel like that with the club, but I get nowhere near it. I'm thinking about how open his chest is to his line of flight. I will have to change my whole relationship to the target to get there.....I was thinking it was more a timing issue LOL.

 

Alfred get the Batmobile, I'm off to the range.

 

I don't see his chest that open to the target...just put yourself there and see how things match up.

[magnum184]

What can you see in the waggle?

 

 

 

 

Mexico City Footage has nice views as well.

 

what do you see magnum184 ? do you have any preliminary theorys shall we call them to avoid any downtoscratch like fear of posting.

IMHO its silly to look at a swing without looking at the waggle, maybe that says more about how i play than anything else, i always waggle, even when im working on a new setup which for some reason doesnt have a waggle, ill do a waggle pre-setup.

 

 

I just thought the left arm movement was particularly interesting.................all the way to the shoulder. It's something I started doing a few months ago to help lower my backswing. When I started rolling the clubface, I also started rolling the arm all the way to the shoulder. I developed a waggle very similar to the way he does it. Never noticed it until today. Now, I don't know what his intentions were for it, to be certain. Recently, I was having some backswing problems out of nowhere. I couldn't get the club set at the top, was even getting a bit steep, which is very strange for me. Had a hell of a time with it, LOL. Come to find out, I was only rotating the forearm. Hmm. Started all the way to the shoulder again, and it worked fine.

 

Just never heard many speak of it. Wanted to hear some opinions. Might just work for me. Might be completely wrong.

 

Sorry Joe. Didn't mean to be cryptic. Even though it was, now that I've re-read it.

[JD3]

Serious question I'd look forward to everyone's opinion: at the start of the downswing, do you think Hogan did anything actively with his arms? I know he states that the downswing starts with the lower body, but when you see him rehearse the downswing movements in these videos, he appears to be coordinating the lower body movement with arm movement: specifically dropping the rear elbow downward and somewhat forward:

 

 

 

Is this "side arm" throwing motion essential? Or is arm movement essential at this point but it's characterized differently?

 

I came upon this question because when practising I note that if I allow my arms to remain passive from the top (i.e. wait for body momentum to bring them into hitting position), at times I find they can stay too high into the downswing. The result is I need slow my body turn down during impact to allow my arms to catch up. This also tends to bias toward a more "down the line" release. I especially don't want to be slowing my body turn (or anything) into impact.

 

Just looking for verification because I'm thinking that going into the wrong direction with an active arm move would be highly troublesome if it's not correct.

 

Thanks.

 

 

No. Nothing with the arms. It's all a response from the transition. Hogan didn't force it. Some do. But, he didn't. The slow motion videos show it too. What you see at impact, the little "pop", is nothing more than "show". Something to entertain the audience. In the real swing, the movements are coordinated with speed to provide the "pop". Not enough in those slow motion swings to do it the way he normally does it. Would you rather see the ball just roll of the face?

 

If you want, you may try to simulate a 9:00 backswing. Make sure you have adequate width, left arm out. Start the change of direction with your lowerbody while keeping your left arm extended and extending out. Did you feel it in the left lat? Did you get a reaction? You would ideally like to be in a position to benefit from something like this. A reaction to the pivot. Makes it a bit simpler. Checking on the width can sometimes help in your situation. See below perhaps.

 

 

 

I don't know what kind of shape you are nearing the top of your swing, which makes it difficult to advise what type of transitioning move you are capable of doing. Because of where Hogan's was, his upperbody movements after transition were reaction to his lowerbody; club shallowing, right shoulder lowering, right forearm, club shallowing, etc... Pure reaction to unwinding.

 

Other times, using an arm motion can be helpful. But, it's a little more complicated.

 

Maybe mess around with it until you feel something in your left lat area if you want to get a glimpse of what Hogan felt and the free ride he spoke of.

Verrreee interrresssing ... so are you saying Hogan's transition move contained a crunching or side bend of the right oblique? Or a tugging against the left lat? Fyi ... a recent swing of mine is contained in my footer. It's not a particularly good example as there's no ball, the lighting's bad and I was cold, someone had bugged me to post something. But it's there if you want to have a look.

[Thaxx]

Love the clubface position here...absolute perfection.

 

This has given me a new perspective on the left release.

Or....

One might say..... it looks like he is swinging to right field

[juansky]

You want Hogan at full speed, here you go and enjoy the blur.

[martinez]

Love the clubface position here...absolute perfection.

 

This has given me a new perspective on the left release.

 

 

I wuz hoping you see it...I'm guessing it changes quite a bit of what you were thinking...This is a VIP pic Martinez...good one to save.

 

Yeah....I feel like that with the club, but I get nowhere near it. I'm thinking about how open his chest is to his line of flight. I will have to change my whole relationship to the target to get there.....I was thinking it was more a timing issue LOL.

 

Alfred get the Batmobile, I'm off to the range.

 

I don't see his chest that open to the target...just put yourself there and see how things match up.

Let's just say it's much more open than this DTL slinger. :D

[iteachgolf]

Love the clubface position here...absolute perfection.

 

This has given me a new perspective on the left release.

Or....

One might say..... it looks like he is swinging to right field

Do you not see the divot? His clubhead is not even close to right field. 3feet after the ball and it's already 2 feet inside the target line.

[magnum184]

Verrreee interrresssing ... so are you saying Hogan's transition move contained a crunching or side bend of the right oblique? Or a tugging against the left lat?

 

I already answered that question. Re-read the post.

[eightiron]

Watch carefully and you may notice how Mr Hogan "flips his eyes" post accident to "compensate"..bad word cause its a very crucial element in his motion ( no hang back ... no way ""under" right shoulder..neck tilts) and release. Here is a man who turned a so called disadvantage into a swing that is held as the greatest..

Now how did he do that..intelligence?..fluke.. practice method..maybe a combination of the the 3..

[fats]

Love the clubface position here...absolute perfection.

 

This has given me a new perspective on the left release.

Or....

One might say..... it looks like he is swinging to right field

Do you not see the divot? His clubhead is not even close to right field. 3feet after the ball and it's already 2 feet inside the target line.

 

 

You are 100% correct iteachgolf.

[Siteseer2]

Great catch Lake... and you raise an interesting point... Hogan's hands travelled on a very tight arc around his body (others are much more linear/DTL looking, albeit still rotary)... a whole lot more speed in Hogan's action....much in the same way a figure skater who twirls in a circle speeds up when they tuck their arms and slow down when they extend them.

[downtoscratch]

Great catch Lake... that completes the "what"................ now on to the HOW. dts

[Siteseer2]

If you could get the sun behind your back where the shadow of your head was about a foot out past the ball.....where do you think most peoples shaft shadow would be if they were at the same point in the swing as Mr. Hogan is below....I think it would be closer to the ball for most folks.

Yes, DTS........HOW?

[downtoscratch]

Siteseer2,

What's your answer.................. I've already given mine? Ref: post #761 or was it #857?

dts

[Siteseer2]

DTS: still searching... but I THINK I know what its not, (of course, thats of little use...) :russian_roulette:

[juansky]

Interesting perspective on Benny Hogan, good look alike too. (cool) I'm not comparing his swing to Hogan's, it's way off, but a good look alike.

[Siteseer2]

Interesting perspective on Benny Hogan, good look alike too. (cool)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGP3fQudc_k

Hardly.... night and day... angles completely different, never posts on his left leg... hips stay back, and a flip release, with more DTL shoulders... hat looks the same, though...

Ooooops , saw your modified post Juan, agreed...

[Siteseer2]

DTS: still searching... but I THINK I know what its not, (of course, thats of little use...) :russian_roulette:

 

DTS: Here's what I think I see...

 

Shoulders open 35 or so degrees at impact

Hips open 50 degrees or so at impact

Spine angle increases slightly on downswing

Posts up on left leg, maybe like no one else

Right hip slightly higher than left on backswing

Left hip slightly higher than right on downswing

Right hip moves forward alot by impact (darn near where left hip was on bs)

On backswing, right forearm rotates darn near 100 degrees from 9 o'clock to top

On downswing, right forearm rotates darn near 100 degrees from top to 9 o'clock

Hands stay on a tight arc on downswing, with alot of left release, and

On downswing, elbow is bent and more up and back, with club more out front ...

 

What that adds up to in the HOW equation... who knows... but I think its a secret ....

[martinez]

On backswing, right forearm rotates darn near 100 degrees from 9 o'clock to top

On downswing, right forearm rotates darn near 100 degrees from top to 9 o'clock

Could you just elaborate on the direction of the forearm rotation both ways? Thanks.

I just have no idea what you mean by this.

[downtoscratch]

SS2,

Here's what I see. Form follows function........ here's the form, what's the function?

[JD3]

Verrreee interrresssing ... so are you saying Hogan's transition move contained a crunching or side bend of the right oblique? Or a tugging against the left lat?

 

I already answered that question. Re-read the post.

Right. But would you say there's a need to immediately bring the arms down at the start of the downswing, be it by action or reaction?

[Swoosh-Thud]

Right. But would you say there's a need to immediately bring the arms down at the start of the downswing, be it by action or reaction?

 

 

The pivot pulls the arm down & left.

[asprin02]

DTS: still searching... but I THINK I know what its not, (of course, thats of little use...) :russian_roulette:

 

DTS: Here's what I think I see...

 

Shoulders open 35 or so degrees at impact

Hips open 50 degrees or so at impact

Spine angle increases slightly on downswing

Posts up on left leg, maybe like no one else

Right hip slightly higher than left on backswing

Left hip slightly higher than right on downswing

Right hip moves forward alot by impact (darn near where left hip was on bs)

On backswing, right forearm rotates darn near 100 degrees from 9 o'clock to top

On downswing, right forearm rotates darn near 100 degrees from top to 9 o'clock

Hands stay on a tight arc on downswing, with alot of left release, and

On downswing, elbow is bent and more up and back, with club more out front ...

 

What that adds up to in the HOW equation... who knows... but I think its a secret ....

 

Siteseer2, I think you have given a good list of check points throughout his swing. What is missing here is what we are looking for, what did he do to get into those checkpoints.

 

One thing I am fairly certain he does, and he mentions this in Five Lessons in the Stance and Posture section. He glues his upper arms to the sides of his chest at address, now if you were try this and swing with the body, you will start to feel a large amount of force being generated, just like the figure skater comment someone said above.

[psd]

What can you see in the waggle?

 

 

 

 

Mexico City Footage has nice views as well.

 

I'm always intrigued by Hogan's hands as he waggles. The way he places them behind the ball and seemingly ingraining the cupped feeling in his left wrist. His left wrist is no where near flat in relation to the length of his left arm. This is happening consistently. I never paid much attention to the waggle capture of Five Lessons, but I try to glean a little more from it each time.

[JD3]

Serious question I'd look forward to everyone's opinion: at the start of the downswing, do you think Hogan did anything actively with his arms? I know he states that the downswing starts with the lower body, but when you see him rehearse the downswing movements in these videos, he appears to be coordinating the lower body movement with arm movement: specifically dropping the rear elbow downward and somewhat forward:

 

 

 

Is this "side arm" throwing motion essential? Or is arm movement essential at this point but it's characterized differently?

 

I came upon this question because when practising I note that if I allow my arms to remain passive from the top (i.e. wait for body momentum to bring them into hitting position), at times I find they can stay too high into the downswing. The result is I need slow my body turn down during impact to allow my arms to catch up. This also tends to bias toward a more "down the line" release. I especially don't want to be slowing my body turn (or anything) into impact.

 

Just looking for verification because I'm thinking that going into the wrong direction with an active arm move would be highly troublesome if it's not correct.

 

Thanks.

 

 

No. Nothing with the arms. It's all a response from the transition. Hogan didn't force it. Some do. But, he didn't. The slow motion videos show it too. What you see at impact, the little "pop", is nothing more than "show". Something to entertain the audience. In the real swing, the movements are coordinated with speed to provide the "pop". Not enough in those slow motion swings to do it the way he normally does it. Would you rather see the ball just roll of the face?

 

If you want, you may try to simulate a 9:00 backswing. Make sure you have adequate width, left arm out. Start the change of direction with your lowerbody while keeping your left arm extended and extending out. Did you feel it in the left lat? Did you get a reaction? You would ideally like to be in a position to benefit from something like this. A reaction to the pivot. Makes it a bit simpler. Checking on the width can sometimes help in your situation. See below perhaps.

 

 

 

I don't know what kind of shape you are nearing the top of your swing, which makes it difficult to advise what type of transitioning move you are capable of doing. Because of where Hogan's was, his upperbody movements after transition were reaction to his lowerbody; club shallowing, right shoulder lowering, right forearm, club shallowing, etc... Pure reaction to unwinding.

 

Other times, using an arm motion can be helpful. But, it's a little more complicated.

 

Maybe mess around with it until you feel something in your left lat area if you want to get a glimpse of what Hogan felt and the free ride he spoke of.

So out of all the replies (and I thank everyone), the one that left me wanting more was the above from Magnum. It got me thinking amd with guidance from Fats, I went searching other posts and videos.

 

I uncovered relevant comments from Sevam1's video where he criticizes players for not using the right leg rotationally on the backswing. And a Slicefixer post wherein he describes a simple test to determine those that move laterally in the backswing and those that rotate: if you draw lines down each leg at address, lateral movers will create space between the left hip and the line, but not the right, rotators will do the opposite. With that I reviewed my swing video and, although I had fancied myself a rotator, this test identified me as a lateral mover.

 

To change this I imagine my right cheek moves in a direction back and toward the target right off the ball, while continuing to press into the ground with the right instep, checking that the right knee doesn't straighten (actually it's left for me since I'm left handed, so others can relate I'm transposing it to rightie.) One thing I noticed immediately is that my arm plane at the top was flatter this way. Although I don't know why it has this effect (my plane was already reasonably shallow), in this shallower plane it eliminated the need for me to shallow it even further to get into the optimal hitting position. I think previously this is why I felt the need to somewhat slow my torso turn in the downswing, in order to allow the arms time to drop down a bit and back into the "slot." I also think lateral movement has the general effect of slowing things down a bit ... not something I want to do. (As a sidenote, I can tell when I'm starting to lose it when a playing partner comments on how "smooth" a swing I'm making. NOT WHAT I WANT!)

 

Anyway, this new move creates GINORMOUS torque in the right foot that spreads all the way up the torso to the back. Although I don't have the benefit of range testing at this time, I would think with all that torquing and improved arm position, the arms would naturally been "on for the free ride" from the top.

 

Does this sound like the right path? If so next step would be identifying proper left torso/hip movement from there and arm action into impact.

 

All replies welcome.

[fats]

To achieve a "rotational pivot" as you say, is the reason I investigated the S&T, MORAD, and Slicefixer swings...I was not pivoting rotationally and was half locked in the turn and the arms got too high (lifted) as a result ... Now I have a strong turn and using rotation along with a slight lateral move and then a left hip rise to establish a strong right side tilt on the forward swing increased my power and accuracy dramatically.

 

Yes...You are on exactly the right path...I like the lines to the hip idea...very simple to understand and it is valid.