Hogan's Secret...what is it? what is it not? (Hogan Threads Merged)

[fats]

I'm not giving anything I know away...If I did I'd certainly read about it under someone elses name...I'm sure of that.

Go see Geoff Jones like I asked you to and all these questions you ask will be answered first hand. Seems simple to me JD.

Love to, but he's in TX and I'm in NYC. :beee:

 

I heard the airlines are refusing to fly to Texas out of NY...LOL

[ryanandrew_golf]

Honestly, I don't know! I would guess very little but that happens too fast. I'm trying (I think) to get it all over the left pivot point. Regardless, I'm no Ben Hogan so I wouldn't use me as the model, lol

 

Since we're covered in ice down here I love reading this stuff (because it's about golf and I can't practice) but I'm more worried about getting it in the hole so I haven't dissected it to the point a lot of you guys have so I should probably follow the "read more, post less" rule!

Thank you Knuckle, that's very helpful. I am stuck in a particularly brutal NYC winter so I know what you're going thru. One more question if you don't mind: what are the setup angles that Slice emphasizes? If you don't want to answer because it violates your "read more, post less" rule that's fine too.

 

I just don't want to put words in Slice's mouth. I know what he tells ME. Sure, he has a swing philosophy but I'm pretty sure, no 100% sure, he doesn't give everyone the same lesson. When I first showed up there (2 years ago last fall) I had what most would call a purely rotary swing but I did it from a poor setup so I, essentially, spun around the mid-point of my feet and never got to my left pivot point. My left foot spun about 30* during the downswing to face the target. I had developed this by trying to eliminate the "hump the goat and sling it" move that almost all juniors develop. I had just done it without the benifit of great instruction (sorry Dad).

Anyway, to get to your question: With a wedge he wants ME to setup with my left hip over my left foot/heel, left leg vertical, spine angled away but the 3 sections of the spine in a straight alignment, right shoulder lower than left, right knee kicked in slightly, right hip slightly lower than left, probably 70+% weight left and then (for ME) to have zero lateral move in the backswing. If I move an inch laterally, my tendency would be to never make up that inch (thus spin) on the downswing. For a driver the left leg is angled back somewhat so the left hip is no longer over the left heel (sorry, I can't be more specific...maybe a couple inches inside the heel) and probably 60% weight right. Again, for me, I try to have zero lateral movement on the backswing which is the really hard part because when I first saw Geoff my "trigger" was a slight bump to the right to begin the backswing which I still fight. There is a gradual transition between the wedge setup to the driver so the clubs in between will be, well, somewhere in between...

[JD3]

I'm not giving anything I know away...If I did I'd certainly read about it under someone elses name...I'm sure of that.

Go see Geoff Jones like I asked you to and all these questions you ask will be answered first hand. Seems simple to me JD.

Love to, but he's in TX and I'm in NYC. :beee:

 

I heard the airlines are refusing to fly to Texas out of NY...LOL

LOL stop, have you seen the kind of birds we have in the Hudson lately?

 

 

[eightiron]

First a Dog now Birds...

[fats]

Honestly, I don't know! I would guess very little but that happens too fast. I'm trying (I think) to get it all over the left pivot point. Regardless, I'm no Ben Hogan so I wouldn't use me as the model, lol

 

Since we're covered in ice down here I love reading this stuff (because it's about golf and I can't practice) but I'm more worried about getting it in the hole so I haven't dissected it to the point a lot of you guys have so I should probably follow the "read more, post less" rule!

Thank you Knuckle, that's very helpful. I am stuck in a particularly brutal NYC winter so I know what you're going thru. One more question if you don't mind: what are the setup angles that Slice emphasizes? If you don't want to answer because it violates your "read more, post less" rule that's fine too.

 

I just don't want to put words in Slice's mouth. I know what he tells ME. Sure, he has a swing philosophy but I'm pretty sure, no 100% sure, he doesn't give everyone the same lesson. When I first showed up there (2 years ago last fall) I had what most would call a purely rotary swing but I did it from a poor setup so I, essentially, spun around the mid-point of my feet and never got to my left pivot point. My left foot spun about 30* during the downswing to face the target. I had developed this by trying to eliminate the "hump the goat and sling it" move that almost all juniors develop. I had just done it without the benifit of great instruction (sorry Dad).

Anyway, to get to your question: With a wedge he wants ME to setup with my left hip over my left foot/heel, left leg vertical, spine angled away but the 3 sections of the spine in a straight alignment, right shoulder lower than left, right knee kicked in slightly, right hip slightly lower than left, probably 70+% weight left and then (for ME) to have zero lateral move in the backswing. If I move an inch laterally, my tendency would be to never make up that inch (thus spin) on the downswing. For a driver the left leg is angled back somewhat so the left hip is no longer over the left heel (sorry, I can't be more specific...maybe a couple inches inside the heel) and probably 60% weight right. Again, for me, I try to have zero lateral movement on the backswing which is the really hard part because when I first saw Geoff my "trigger" was a slight bump to the right to begin the backswing which I still fight. There is a gradual transition between the wedge setup to the driver so the clubs in between will be, well, somewhere in between...

 

Geoff has done some great work with you...Geoff is actually the only reason I came to this site...I've met some nice people here thanks to Geoff...Anyway Knuckles, it is a pleasure to see your swing...it is one of the best I've seen...continued success.

[ryanandrew_golf]

Mr. Fats, again, coming from you that means a LOT! Thank you, sir!

 

BTW, I'm still hoping you'll spill the beans on that 40 yards! Most of the time you see someone post that it's 'yeah, right, whatever" but you have street cred!

[Swoosh-Thud]

JD DO A SEARCH:

 

In a direct response to Sevam's post:

 

IMOP, you've done in your swing, a very nice job of inputting the "essence" of Moe Norman's golf swing....but, it's not nearly as much like Mr. Hogan's.......the FOOTAGE shows it Sevam......it's NOT there.......my student in the 9 to 3 is a LOT more like Mr. Hogan than you are within yours........

 

 

 

AS FAR AS HOGAN:

 

I'm not trying to "hijack" anything.......my name was referenced in this thread a coupla' times........and I've stated what I think was his "secret" on this site on several occasions and am NOT going to go to the trouble of doing it again........

 

I will say this.......prior to 46' his golf swing was flawed, based on the amount of lag he had, etc., and post 46' it isn't.......I can explain and make my case for what, IMOP, his secret is and back it up with a LOT of footage.......but, we'll never know if it was his secret nor if he even had one as he's dead and gone........IMOP he did.......and it had to do with the enormous amount of lag he created and getting it UNloaded without being forced to slow his body to let the clubhead catch up or use his hands/arms to force it to catch up..... (which most with his lag end up doing and they hit it all over the property).........

 

Some of the changes he made are detailed in the August 8, 1955 LIFE article and in the SI series he authored.........but NOT all.......as for my own theory, I KNOW he KNEW he did it and it's NOT mentioned in the SI series, Power Golf, 5 Lessons, Venturi, Seitz, etc........that I do know for a fact.......

 

However, all I have is MY opinion, but, I can put together a fairly convincing case using footage, his own words, and the words of others. However, that's all I can do is state my case.......NOBODY can say definitively what "the secret" was, or if he even had one.......it's all just conjecture on ALL of our parts......including mine....... ;)

 

One other thing, I've held Ben Hogan the man in reverence since I was 6 years old. I've heard some very successful tour players, with my own ears, speak with him with this same reverence. There is NO way I'd ever "pimp" my teaching success based on MY opinion of Mr. Hogan's secret nor would I EVER, in ANYway, try and capitalize on all of HIS hard work and dedication. I have way too much genuine respect and admiration of the man. Plus, I want to make it on my OWN abilities and not somebody elses.

 

I can say this though, I learned more from studying Mr.Hogan, and his golf swing, than from any other single source. To this day I spend at least an hour or so a week, alone, studying the same footage I've viewed a thousand times (literally) trying to "see" something I might have missed. I also willingly pass on whatever it is that I've learned every single day. (you can see the result of my opinons in Matt's golf swing in the 9 to 3 footage)

 

Mr. Hogan was a fascinating man and had a great golf swing that exhibits fantastic athleticism, coordination, and speed. I think trying to copy his golf swing, in his words, is "folly," but, a person can sure LEARN a lot by studying it. I know studying his golf swing helped me to "see" that other great ballstrikers golf swings have a great deal in common with him.......even if they don't "appear" to with the naked eye.......JMOP......and that's all it is, MOP ;)

 

This post has been edited by slicefixer: Jun 26 2008, 11:44 PM

 

 

AND:

 

Ok, here is MOP.......the "givens" here are......"deep turn, synched arms, shallow backswing plane, square to open face, and a lot of lag"

 

Mr. Hogan figured out that IF he got "into"/"over" his left side/left pivot point/left leg that he could UNwind around it, "more level left" rather than "underneath and up"........by doing this his arms would be PULLED around (more level/"lower".....a bit more "level rather than up") by the pivot/core unwinding......this PULLS the butt of the club "around, low and left"...........if during the UNwinding his upper left arm (both arms really) are PULLED tight against his chest right at impact (the right arm "attaches" earlier) the butt of the club REALLY works "low and left" which "turns the face down" (without manipulation) and squares it........FEW understand this, but, it's the ONLY way to CONSISTENTLY release a great deal of lag........IF a person doesn't have Hogan type lag, which few do but I did at one time, then they'd NEVER figure this one out, at least on their own....... ;)

 

So, with all of that being said, getting to one's left side is ESSENTIAL.......and it's easy to do IF you set up/wind up/pivot properly as the lateral motion necessary to reach the left side is contained within the rotation..........

 

To do that you MUST get "wound up"/"stretched" abit in the backswing..........IF you feel the stretch by winding up (on proper angles and with some "detph") then the downswing is AUTOMATIC.......

 

So, IMOP, Mr. Hogan had his right knee kicked in a bit (something I've taught for many, many years) and his right foot squared up a bit (totally depends on the player) so as to create the "stretch" asap and eliminate ANY lateral slide of the lower body in the backswing.......He KNEW he had to get "wound up"/"rotational" in his backswing and also knew he had to get to his left side/left pivot point at some point BEFORE he could UNwind/rotate AROUND........otherwise your "spinning out" and a lot of bad things normally happend when ya' do that........ ;)

 

However, when you do this it does restrict your hip rotation a bit which will restrict your backswing a bit, both the length and the "depth" (unless you let the right knee straighten a lot).......which restricts the "depth" of the turn a bit........fine for any shot you wish to compress down upon, but, not so good for any shot you wish to strike from a shallow arc........the "deeper" the turn the more "inside" the players shoulders/arms/club will attack from on the downswing.......and they attack from more "shallow and from the inside"......and so does the clubhead.......which is fantastic for a driver/longer stuff.......

 

So, IF Mr. Hogan wanted to create the "stretch" asap but NOT sacrifice "depth" some type of compromise had to be made or some type of adjustment........hence the flared left/squared right/right knee set, but, with a progressively more closed stance in order to maintain the ability to turn "deeper" as the club got longer and the angle of attack needed to be "shallower"......sure hope that makes sense.......

 

That's my opinion........ ;)

 

 

 

FINALLY:

 

Yep, nothing in here hasn't been discussed a BUNCH of times on here.........and thanks for the compliment... ;)

 

Sevam's "secret" isn't a secret at all......just a way to get to the left side......IMOP......all it takes is a throough analysis of his golf swing/Moe's golf swing/Mr. Hogan's golf swing.......I do think he has a fine golf swing and like it a lot........IMOP the concept of "screwing the right foot into the ground is OUTstanding.....NEVER though of it that way........but, I sure do like it......and it's now in the "image file" for future use....... ;) ..

 

I don't buy Vasquez's "story".......if he did anything with his right knee the right HEEL would react UP and TOWARD the ball, and it doesn't.......and the gap betweeen his knee's would close, and it doesn't........But, MY BIGGEST problem with JV's story is he didn't tell it till BOTH Hogan's were G O N E and can't dispute it.......PLUS, do you honestly thing Mr. Hogan would tell his "secret" to his shag boy of less than a year and NOT tell it to John Schlee, Jack Burke, Tommy Bolt, Kris Tschetter, Tommy Byrum, Ken Venturi, etc. etc. etc.........IMOP, even if I could disregard my common sense, purely frrom a factual point of view his explanation falls flat when a LOT of footage is studied.........and I did study it....... ;)

 

I'm sorry the PM box is full, but, if you'll just email me I'd be more than happy to visit........I've still got several that I've got to return and email takes priority........many hours of teaching, wife, 2 kids, lots of emails, house tore up from storm damage, etc. etc. etc.......just so much time...... ;)

[fats]

Mr. Fats, again, coming from you that means a LOT! Thank you, sir!

 

BTW, I'm still hoping you'll spill the beans on that 40 yards! Most of the time you see someone post that it's 'yeah, right, whatever" but you have street cred!

 

Nothin' special Knucksie...with a better turn via some S&T/Morad/Slicefixer/Fats ideas I was able to recapture my shaft angle again and with it came much more power/speed/compression.

[Ezgolfer]

........IMOP the concept of "screwing the right foot into the ground is OUTstanding.....NEVER though of it that way........but, I sure do like it......and it's now in the "image file" for future use.......

 

 

Who do i trust now with screwing the right foot ... Slicefixer ....., FATS , eightiron or fcavallo ..

Even slice says it is oustanding concept .. Some self styled teachers have been mocking this thing ...

[eightiron]

........IMOP the concept of "screwing the right foot into the ground is OUTstanding.....NEVER though of it that way........but, I sure do like it......and it's now in the "image file" for future use.......

 

 

Who do i trust now with screwing the right foot ... Slicefixer ....., FATS , eightiron or fcavallo ..

Even slice says it is oustanding concept .. Some self styled teachers have been mocking this thing ...

 

 

Ez do whatever you like..i screw mine in anticlockwise at set up..but don't think about it..its just like that to support the right knee being "kicked in" a bit...I would be very surprised if Slice promotes turning the right foot clockwise for a start up backswing reference...another one who ran and hid when the debates were on right sided involvement ...now you call me out any chance you get..LOL

[juansky]

Inversion, eversion, secret this, secret that, cupped, bowed, squat, yada, yada, yada.

 

How about the concept of hitting it straight? :beach:

[ej002]

Baseball more off the rear leg (ball up in air) Golf more off the lead leg..(Ball on ground.) Rotation and leverage are strikingly similar though, but those two facts will change things accordingly.

 

Accept it or reject it.. your choice.. but golf more off the right leg than many here believe is at

the heart of Mike Maves beliefs and I concur. The appearance of a preponderance of weight

displaced to the left early in transition is an accepted reference point whenever this debate

arises. Fact or fiction. Many many years ago as chronicled in Joe Novak's book Golf Can Be An Easy Game the issue of weight transference was taken up by a a major university and they

measured the best players of the day. Their findings........... more weight registered on the right side at impact then on the left. Novak was somewhat shocked at these findings so much

so that he went to work to offer an explanation that he at least could live with. Still the scales

weren't impacted by Joe's explanation. Many years later Golf Digest revisited this same testing

an surprise, surprise................. same results! Oh well, what's science got to do with it anyway! dts

 

There's more updated stuff since then that say different, using actual force plates, not scales. If I can find it again, I'll post it, but for professional golfers, the weight is decidedly on the lead foot at impact.

 

 

I remember seeing it as well. Lets say your right though, more weight is on the right then left at impact (don't think thats true). It doesn't negate the fact that more weight is on the rear leg of a baseball player then golfer during the moment of truth, and thats due to the level the ball is struck. BTW DTS what do you feel your right foot doing when you make a backswing into a secure right knee/leg?

 

 

HF,

Not that I'd doubt you but can you document that it was highly flawed? Golf Digest's

credibility is somewhat being called into account by this claim. dts

 

 

Technology, time, and the drive for answers has proved a lot of people's credibility wrong. Remember, the earth was flat at one time.

 

I myself believe that good players are very much into their left leg at impact with their weight. That being said, I think the test just needs to be done on modern technology that HF was describing. His understanding of that stuff is way over my head though. I'm a systems engineer, he is a REAL engineer if I remember correctly.

 

 

The right foot is important (and sorry to bring up baseball again), but there are baseball hitters whose back foot comes OFF THE GROUND at impact. Does that mean they dont use it? No. The key of the right foot is pivot/pressure point to move your weight forward. Even in Slicefixer's model that has MUCH LESS sway than say Sevam's model there is still a weight "transfer" as Slice would say... not a "shift" in HIS model. The point being is that in both swings, your backswing stores up energy and your right foot is your connection to the ground, then you transition and your and that power/connection of your right foot releases, because your energy /weight whatever you call it goes to your right side. Sevem said that in his mammoth thread as well, that is why at one point he was talking about also screwing the LEFT leg at the same time, because he said you need a firm post to swing into. What does that mean? It take it as a firm post to accept that transfer of weight/ energy. So there is a fluidity that just happens. Maybe more so in a bump and twist guy's swing than a more "rotational" guys swing. Regardless, the right foot is important and weight is moving / transfering from right to left. If Hogan was really hitting off his right side, then his foot wouldnt drag. Does it really matter how much is when and where? Everyone knows if you hang back on your right side it is hook city. Didnt we all watch the guy with the one legged swing drill? I dont get why this is still being nit-picked about...

[spider]

I have enjoyed this thread immensely. Fats, FC, Knuckle, tilt, EZ, 8, JD, Pure, HF, Martinez, JD on and on. Sorry for taking the liberty of shortening screen names and if I left anyone out I truly apologize.

 

My wish is that the topic would not have been about "the secret". If Hogan had one would it not be a feel specific to him? Feel to me can be different for everyone... right? I think of Hogan's secret is his epiphany one day...over time or whatever... based on his release. So is the secret the release or one specific move to get to that elusive release that never let him hit left again? I dunno but the secret doesn't matter to me.

 

It isn't like Hogan practiced or played in the dark. We can all see footage of him and some have seen much more than just you tube videos.

 

What matters to me is all your opinions on what he is doing in the swing... why he is doing it... how we can use that to improve our swings. Even how he may have developed his opinions from baseball swing etc.

 

I just want to know how I can get that hogan style release left in the end.

 

Keep it up guys the topic is still interesting to me.

 

BTW I don't know !@#$ but I am learning a ton from all of you.

[redsoxall]

I have kept up with all of this thread. This may have been answered, but I want to know a couple of things about Hogan's right hip.

If you draw a vertical line on his right hip, does his hip stay there or does it move closer to the target early in the backswing? I know later in the backswing he starts shifting laterally toward the target.

Also, is this when he shifts his COG to the front leg.

Is his shift done more with feet, legs or more with hips to start it?

I appologize if these questions have been answered.

Everyone on this thread must remember that not all are as astute on Hogan's swing as some of you. We are all trying to learn something and the best way to learn is to ask questions.

By the way I have had several lessons from VJ Trolio. Very nice guy.

Thanks

[eightiron]

I have kept up with all of this thread. This may have been answered, but I want to know a couple of things about Hogan's right hip.

If you draw a vertical line on his right hip, does his hip stay there or does it move closer to the target early in the backswing? I know later in the backswing he starts shifting laterally toward the target.

 

yes its moves behind him and forward quickly

Also, is this when he shifts his COG to the front leg.

 

the start of it yes

Is his shift done more with feet, legs or more with hips to start it?

 

No its done by the mid axis/core turning ...the rest of the shift is done by the shoulder motion

I appologize if these questions have been answered.

Everyone on this thread must remember that not all are as astute on Hogan's swing as some of you. We are all trying to learn something and the best way to learn is to ask questions.

By the way I have had several lessons from VJ Trolio. Very nice guy.

Thanks

[fats]

JD DO A SEARCH:

 

In a direct response to Sevam's post:

 

IMOP, you've done in your swing, a very nice job of inputting the "essence" of Moe Norman's golf swing....but, it's not nearly as much like Mr. Hogan's.......the FOOTAGE shows it Sevam......it's NOT there.......my student in the 9 to 3 is a LOT more like Mr. Hogan than you are within yours........

 

 

 

AS FAR AS HOGAN:

 

I'm not trying to "hijack" anything.......my name was referenced in this thread a coupla' times........and I've stated what I think was his "secret" on this site on several occasions and am NOT going to go to the trouble of doing it again........

 

I will say this.......prior to 46' his golf swing was flawed, based on the amount of lag he had, etc., and post 46' it isn't.......I can explain and make my case for what, IMOP, his secret is and back it up with a LOT of footage.......but, we'll never know if it was his secret nor if he even had one as he's dead and gone........IMOP he did.......and it had to do with the enormous amount of lag he created and getting it UNloaded without being forced to slow his body to let the clubhead catch up or use his hands/arms to force it to catch up..... (which most with his lag end up doing and they hit it all over the property).........

 

Some of the changes he made are detailed in the August 8, 1955 LIFE article and in the SI series he authored.........but NOT all.......as for my own theory, I KNOW he KNEW he did it and it's NOT mentioned in the SI series, Power Golf, 5 Lessons, Venturi, Seitz, etc........that I do know for a fact.......

 

However, all I have is MY opinion, but, I can put together a fairly convincing case using footage, his own words, and the words of others. However, that's all I can do is state my case.......NOBODY can say definitively what "the secret" was, or if he even had one.......it's all just conjecture on ALL of our parts......including mine....... ;)

 

One other thing, I've held Ben Hogan the man in reverence since I was 6 years old. I've heard some very successful tour players, with my own ears, speak with him with this same reverence. There is NO way I'd ever "pimp" my teaching success based on MY opinion of Mr. Hogan's secret nor would I EVER, in ANYway, try and capitalize on all of HIS hard work and dedication. I have way too much genuine respect and admiration of the man. Plus, I want to make it on my OWN abilities and not somebody elses.

 

I can say this though, I learned more from studying Mr.Hogan, and his golf swing, than from any other single source. To this day I spend at least an hour or so a week, alone, studying the same footage I've viewed a thousand times (literally) trying to "see" something I might have missed. I also willingly pass on whatever it is that I've learned every single day. (you can see the result of my opinons in Matt's golf swing in the 9 to 3 footage)

 

Mr. Hogan was a fascinating man and had a great golf swing that exhibits fantastic athleticism, coordination, and speed. I think trying to copy his golf swing, in his words, is "folly," but, a person can sure LEARN a lot by studying it. I know studying his golf swing helped me to "see" that other great ballstrikers golf swings have a great deal in common with him.......even if they don't "appear" to with the naked eye.......JMOP......and that's all it is, MOP ;)

 

This post has been edited by slicefixer: Jun 26 2008, 11:44 PM

 

 

AND:

 

Ok, here is MOP.......the "givens" here are......"deep turn, synched arms, shallow backswing plane, square to open face, and a lot of lag"

 

Mr. Hogan figured out that IF he got "into"/"over" his left side/left pivot point/left leg that he could UNwind around it, "more level left" rather than "underneath and up"........by doing this his arms would be PULLED around (more level/"lower".....a bit more "level rather than up") by the pivot/core unwinding......this PULLS the butt of the club "around, low and left"...........if during the UNwinding his upper left arm (both arms really) are PULLED tight against his chest right at impact (the right arm "attaches" earlier) the butt of the club REALLY works "low and left" which "turns the face down" (without manipulation) and squares it........FEW understand this, but, it's the ONLY way to CONSISTENTLY release a great deal of lag........IF a person doesn't have Hogan type lag, which few do but I did at one time, then they'd NEVER figure this one out, at least on their own....... ;)

 

So, with all of that being said, getting to one's left side is ESSENTIAL.......and it's easy to do IF you set up/wind up/pivot properly as the lateral motion necessary to reach the left side is contained within the rotation..........

 

To do that you MUST get "wound up"/"stretched" abit in the backswing..........IF you feel the stretch by winding up (on proper angles and with some "detph") then the downswing is AUTOMATIC.......

 

So, IMOP, Mr. Hogan had his right knee kicked in a bit (something I've taught for many, many years) and his right foot squared up a bit (totally depends on the player) so as to create the "stretch" asap and eliminate ANY lateral slide of the lower body in the backswing.......He KNEW he had to get "wound up"/"rotational" in his backswing and also knew he had to get to his left side/left pivot point at some point BEFORE he could UNwind/rotate AROUND........otherwise your "spinning out" and a lot of bad things normally happend when ya' do that........ ;)

 

However, when you do this it does restrict your hip rotation a bit which will restrict your backswing a bit, both the length and the "depth" (unless you let the right knee straighten a lot).......which restricts the "depth" of the turn a bit........fine for any shot you wish to compress down upon, but, not so good for any shot you wish to strike from a shallow arc........the "deeper" the turn the more "inside" the players shoulders/arms/club will attack from on the downswing.......and they attack from more "shallow and from the inside"......and so does the clubhead.......which is fantastic for a driver/longer stuff.......

 

So, IF Mr. Hogan wanted to create the "stretch" asap but NOT sacrifice "depth" some type of compromise had to be made or some type of adjustment........hence the flared left/squared right/right knee set, but, with a progressively more closed stance in order to maintain the ability to turn "deeper" as the club got longer and the angle of attack needed to be "shallower"......sure hope that makes sense.......

 

That's my opinion........ ;)

 

 

 

FINALLY:

 

Yep, nothing in here hasn't been discussed a BUNCH of times on here.........and thanks for the compliment... ;)

 

Sevam's "secret" isn't a secret at all......just a way to get to the left side......IMOP......all it takes is a throough analysis of his golf swing/Moe's golf swing/Mr. Hogan's golf swing.......I do think he has a fine golf swing and like it a lot........IMOP the concept of "screwing the right foot into the ground is OUTstanding.....NEVER though of it that way........but, I sure do like it......and it's now in the "image file" for future use....... ;) ..

 

I don't buy Vasquez's "story".......if he did anything with his right knee the right HEEL would react UP and TOWARD the ball, and it doesn't.......and the gap betweeen his knee's would close, and it doesn't........But, MY BIGGEST problem with JV's story is he didn't tell it till BOTH Hogan's were G O N E and can't dispute it.......PLUS, do you honestly thing Mr. Hogan would tell his "secret" to his shag boy of less than a year and NOT tell it to John Schlee, Jack Burke, Tommy Bolt, Kris Tschetter, Tommy Byrum, Ken Venturi, etc. etc. etc.........IMOP, even if I could disregard my common sense, purely frrom a factual point of view his explanation falls flat when a LOT of footage is studied.........and I did study it....... ;)

 

I'm sorry the PM box is full, but, if you'll just email me I'd be more than happy to visit........I've still got several that I've got to return and email takes priority........many hours of teaching, wife, 2 kids, lots of emails, house tore up from storm damage, etc. etc. etc.......just so much time...... ;)

 

 

That say it all IMOP...and that my friends ain't no croc

Fats

 

[JOEGOLFWRX]

Inversion, eversion, secret this, secret that, cupped, bowed, squat, yada, yada, yada.

 

How about the concept of hitting it straight? :beach:

 

hogan never hit the ball straight :D

[RJC59]

If you put this golf swing in slo motion I think you will see a TONNE of similarities between him and hogan.

 

Those of you who havent heard of him, Gary is a rookie on tour this year..

 

 

He is also probably the longest guy on tour now, ballspeed of about 125-130.

 

 

[fats]

Yes I agree...I also see him drag his right foot forward...

 

This guy looks good. Thanks

[JD3]

OK, after much trial and tribulation, I think I have a good enough handle on Slice and Sevam to make a valid comparison. Thanks to most on this board, with a special mention to the teenaged Knuckle for teaching many of the grown-ups how to act adult.

 

In no particular order here goes:

 

1. Sevam and Slice agree on far more than they disagree (even they agree with this), so I don't understand where all the Sevam-haters are coming from;

2. Sevam's rear foot eversion is very obvious in Moe Norman's swing, in Hogan's it's debatable;

3. When I first experimented with getting to my front side as soon as possible in the downswing (per Slice) I ended in a big "coming out of it" mess. In this case I was probably doing something consistent with Hardy's "stand on the front" foot move. Only when I incorporated Slice "rear butt cheek / front lat" feel did it become functional. This creates what I think is a credible looking Hogan hip move but it doesn't slam someone on the front side nearly as fast or hard as "stand on front" foot does. My best guess is impact has a nearly perfectly balanced 50/50 weight distribution. But it happens very fast so hard to tell (Knuckles made this point too);

4. I have a hard time fully relating to Slice's "no active arm or hand" directive. It could be possible, I'm just not seeing it;

5. For baseball analogies it's better in most cases to use pitching instead of batting. Pitching is a wind up where you can take as much time as you want and you're not adjusting to a changing target. Also, I think the most prominent connection in pitching is the rear foot to the throwing hand/arm, which I think is a great way to organize a golf swing too;

6. All in all, I think Slice probably has a better handle on Hogan's pivot but I'd emphasize they ARE VERY VERY close in what they say. Their main point of difference is release pattern, with Slice saying no conscious hand/arm action and Sevam saying conscious hand/arm action through the hitting zone is the "art" of the swing. I also think this is a function of their subtly different pivots: with Sevam you have time to use hands/arms and they aren't thrown as much inside, with Slice's it happens so fast the opportunity to be active with them is significantly reduced. They just kind of feel like a couple of pegs being thrown around your body.

 

So there you have it ... very very similar IMHO.

[JD3]

5. For baseball analogies it's better in most cases to use pitching instead of batting. Pitching is a wind up where you can take as much time as you want and you're not adjusting to a changing target. Also, I think the most prominent connection in pitching is the rear foot to the throwing hand/arm, which I think is a great way to organize a golf swing too;

6. All in all, I think Slice probably has a better handle on Hogan's pivot but I'd emphasize they ARE VERY VERY close in what they say. Their main point of difference is release pattern, with Slice saying no conscious hand/arm action and Sevam saying conscious hand/arm action through the hitting zone is the "art" of the swing. I also think this is a function of their subtly different pivots: with Sevam you have time to use hands/arms and they aren't thrown as much inside, with Slice's it happens so fast the opportunity to be active with them is significantly reduced. They just kind of feel like a couple of pegs being thrown around your body.

 

Response..Examining pitching over hitting with a comparison of baseball and golf is ridiculous. You don't throw a damn golf ball you hit it with an instrument. Hitting much more closely resembles golf than pitching..Unless you want to try and push that Ballard jazz. I'm sorry I just think thats ridiculous.

JD'S RESPONSE: OKIE DOKIE, YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER CONTACTING NYT SPECIAL PUBLISHING, THE PUBLUSHER OF "FIVE LESSONS", AND LET THEM KNOW HOW IRATE YOU ARE OVER THE 3 IMAGES A BASEBALL THROWING MOTION AND NONE OF BATTING.

 

Although they share some similarities..the release is a huge thing and so is the lateral motion. Most teachers share a lot of similarities..but those two factors are pretty big differences.

JD: NOT TO THEM APPARENTLY AS IN SEVERAL BACK AND FORTH POSTS THEY CELEBRATED THEIR SIMILARITIES.

 

The problem a lot of us, and this includes Geoff I believe..is that Sevam tried to capitalize on Hogans name..and he did for a while until some of us stepped in. I'd like to see the numbers on some e-book sales now.

JD: AH OK, I GUESS THIS IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF YOUR SEVAM-BASHING OBSESSION. IN THE INITIAL POSTS SEVAM SAYS THE REASON HE DID THE VIDEOS IN SUCH A CASUAL FASHION IS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT TO COME ACROSS AS EXPLOITING HOGAN'S NAME. AS THE POSTS PROGRESSED AND HE GOT DRAWN MORE INTO HOGAN ANALYSIS BY OTHER POSTERS, I THINK IT WAS OBVIOUS WHERE HE WAS COMING FROM AND THERE WASN'T A NEED ANYMORE TO HIDE THE HOGAN CONNECTION. I TRULY BELIEVE THAT A) SEVAM PRESENTS WHAT HE THINKS HOGAN DID AND B) HE'S NOT TRYING TO EXPLOIT HOGAN. YOU MAY FEEL DIFFERENTLY, IT'S A JUDGEMENT CALL. FYI ... I BOUGHT SEVAMS EBOOK AND FOUND IT ENGAGING, INFORMATIVE AND WELL PRESENTED.

 

JD: CHEERS

[dminn23]

"Pow!" - Ancient Jack Hamm proverb

[ej002]

I agree 100% with jduncanm3

 

Anyways you are not sure about what Geoff means by taking the hands out... basically he is saying there is no 'conscious' squaring up of the hands. They all say the pivot does it magically, and in a way it does, but you just cant turn your hips and bomb a golf ball. You need to really drive your arms through the zone, not throw them or swing them out there, but they need to feel powerfully driven out there by good rotation. That is where the hitting a baseball comes in... you cant hit a baseball just by flipping two arms (unless you are fighting off a curve ball for example), you still have some arm action, but the hands are not doing anthing accept holding the bat. Everything else is automatic. That is the best way I can describe it. So 'no arms' / 'no hands' is a misnomer... like I said earlier "no wet noodles", because alot of people who may be correct will end up leaving their arms stuck behind them. I believe this is what Geoff is getting at. Just no flip.

 

I think it is imortant to note that the hands must be LOW enough through the hitting zone to use pure rotation. Geoff says pivot like you are trying to hook one down the line, (pivot only no arms), but try to hit a fade while using that hooking style pivot. ANd as far as the three right hands go, it is because Hogans right hand is on that low plane and the cup in his right wrist is set up so his is just "slapping" is hand through the zone. Once he hits that plane, his mechanics and pivot already basically has his right hand square to the arc and he can just drive that forarm and right hand through the zone without flipping... that is what he means by three right hands... his body is forcing that right hand on that plane and slapping the hell out of the ball. To be honest, once you are on this plane, the sequence takes more of the form of a SLAPSHOT in hockey, than a baseball swing.

 

So I think hitting / throwing side arm baseball to feel the slap / and hockey are all relavent feelings... to me at least because I can identify with those motions. (BTW someone said that Baseball Players struggle with hooks, hockey players normally struggle with slices... figure that out...)

 

JMO and I am sure it dont count for much...

[asprin02]

I think everyone is entitled to voice their opinion without getting chastised. But, if the baseball/golf connection was what Hogan felt to be a big part shaping his swing, why would he give it directly/bluntly to his competitors and the general public? He wouldn't. He definitely wouldn't be peppering his book with baseball hitters even if it was the correct motion. At that time, even today, people would think he is nuts.

[JD3]

I think everyone is entitled to voice their opinion without getting chastised. But, if the baseball/golf connection was what Hogan felt to be a big part shaping his swing, why would he give it directly/bluntly to his competitors and the general public? He wouldn't. He definitely wouldn't be peppering his book with baseball hitters even if it was the correct motion. At that time, even today, people would think he is nuts.

fyi ... i wouldn't have put the baseball point in there had i known it would receive primary attention. it was just something on my mind so i wrote it down. what im most interested in are the other points of comparison.

thanks

[JOEGOLFWRX]

i guess this is a bad time to mention this guy :russian_roulette: :D

http://mikecortson.com/thesecret.html

 

seems to be tripping the shaft from the top. not the secret methinks, but the entire website will kill some time for some for those with a curious nature.

[JD3]

i guess this is a bad time to mention this guy :russian_roulette: :D

http://mikecortson.com/thesecret.html

 

seems to be tripping the shaft from the top. not the secret methinks, but the entire website will kill some time for some for those with a curious nature.

Oh geez, another guy saying Schlee told him the secret, like Bertrand. Here's where he can stick that book:

 

[JOEGOLFWRX]

Oh geez, another guy saying Schlee told him the secret, like Bertrand. Here's where he can stick that book:

 

lol, the non secret section of the website is way more interesting

 

*please excuse going off topic

[fats]

i guess this is a bad time to mention this guy :russian_roulette: :D

http://mikecortson.com/thesecret.html

 

seems to be tripping the shaft from the top. not the secret methinks, but the entire website will kill some time for some for those with a curious nature.

 

 

 

Triple ROFL...LOL

No comment on the swing...LOL...whadda y'all think...look like Ben Hogan?

[ryanandrew_golf]

i guess this is a bad time to mention this guy :russian_roulette: :D

http://mikecortson.com/thesecret.html

 

seems to be tripping the shaft from the top. not the secret methinks, but the entire website will kill some time for some for those with a curious nature.

 

 

 

Triple ROFL...LOL

No comment on the swing...LOL...whadda y'all think...look like Ben Hogan?

 

Mr. Fats, LOTS of similarities:

 

Both male

Both played right handed

Both...errrr...ummmm..sorry, that's all I got