Did I see a Rules infraction by perez just now on 15th?

[KevCarter]

I didn't see it, as I said. Nobody cares what you THINK the rule should be, it's posted in black and white. Make the determination from there.

 

Kevin

 

 

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH HDDUDE55,I thought that was a bit harsh

Fishlips,

 

First of all, I haven't even offered an opinion on whether or not the ball moved. I simply posted the rule which is black and white. This guy felt the need to post the following in regards to the rule I posted:

 

I hope no amateurs get the idea it's OK to deliberately act in a manner that moves your ball while addressing it. It's a stroke penalty.

 

I am here to help, not hurt Amateurs in their understanding. The fact that this guy thinks the rule should be different than it is written is irrelevant. I'm not trying to explain the rules as interpreted by others... Harsh, based on his post absolutely not.

 

All I did was quote directly from the USGA rule book and some just want to argue facts to fiction.

 

Kevin

[Dyoung121]

It appeared the ball moved to me. Not sure if it imprved his lie or not. What would that mean for Pat Perez? Did he sign his scorecard wrong and should haved been DQ?

[Redman]

18/1 Ball Moves Vertically Downward

Q. A ball lying in long grass slips vertically downward. Or a ball is accidentally stepped on and pressed down, say a quarter of an inch, in the grass or into the ground. In each case, has the ball moved?

 

A. Yes, unless the ball returns to its original position. The direction of movement is immaterial.

 

I didn't see it, so I don't know if it changed position.

 

Kevin

The ball didn't accidentally slip. He pressed down on the grass and moved it while addressing the ball-- multiple times -- and we all know tamping down grass behind the ball improves the lie, another rules violation. I hope no amateurs get the idea it's OK to deliberately act in a manner that moves your ball while addressing it. It's a stroke penalty. It will be interesting to see if this issue gets legs. You can bet tens of thousands of TV watchers saw it.

 

Are you kidding me? I am shocked this has really even become a question and a topic. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion and all, but I have seen this a million times during every golf tournament. No he did not improve his lie by placing his club down behind the ball to see how it would sit. And no, the ball did not ever come to rest outside of its original position. The comment about the commentators not saying anything because they are in bed with the players is funny, yet absurd!

[InTheHole]

If there had been a rules violation, he would have called a penalty on himself.

 

Isn't that the way things are done? He didn't call a penalty, so there is none.

 

That's golf.

[chunker]

USGA Definition:

 

Move or Moved

A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

 

I'm very glad I came across this thread. I wondered the same exact thing when I saw it happen...

 

At least now I know, going forward, I'm allowed to address it in the fluffy stuff, as long as the ball comes back to its original position.

 

Good stuff. Thanks!

[InTheHole]

USGA Definition:

 

Move or Moved

A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

 

I'm very glad I came across this thread. I wondered the same exact thing when I saw it happen...

 

At least now I know, going forward, I'm allowed to address it in the fluffy stuff, as long as the ball comes back to its original position.

 

Good stuff. Thanks!

 

 

Dangerous ground to live on... if it doesn't come back to the same spot, you risk a penalty.

[505]

I just watched it on the DVR, multiple times in slow-mo and regular speed... my opinion is that the ball did not move at all when he addressed it the first time. He then took a couple practice swings, before addressing the ball again. This time the ball did barely move downward, but it then returned upward to it's original position before he hit it.

 

As someone said before, the camera was so zoomed in that it kinda magnified it. Doubt he even noticed from his angle. The ref in me says no penalty. :)

[atlanta golfer]

I'm glad I saw this thread. I was watching tv at the time and could not believe what a risky move that was for Perez to push down with his club on the grass, directly behind the ball. I noticed that the ball did not rotate, but it definitely moved up and down a couple of times on the thick bed of grass. Personally, if my ball is in thick grass, I do not ground the club for that very reason - the ball can easily move. I still am not sure if this should have warranted a penalty or not, but it does seem kind of stupid for a pro to be taking a chance like that. The ball could easily have dislodged and rolled a couple inches. If you are not in a hazard and want to test the lie, do it maybe a foot behind the ball, not an inch or two. It would be good for golf channel to do a small segment of a show on this, show the tape in slow motion, and talk about it. Boy, it was close.

[AUDuffer]

USGA Definition:

 

Move or Moved

A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

 

I'm very glad I came across this thread. I wondered the same exact thing when I saw it happen...

 

At least now I know, going forward, I'm allowed to address it in the fluffy stuff, as long as the ball comes back to its original position.

 

Good stuff. Thanks!

 

 

Dangerous ground to live on... if it doesn't come back to the same spot, you risk a penalty.

 

Agreed. I seem to remember reading/seeing something about players keeping their clubs elevated to prevent the ball from moving.

[CenterOfPercussion]

Can somebody put a copy of the video on youtube so we all can see, thanks!

[blade_man]

Ok, I have read all 40 post on this and I saw it too, the rules are there for a purpose and they worked, we were looking at a ball that looked like it was 1.68 feet in dia and not 1.68", it did move but as I saw it did not change position. As a golfer and competitor I will not question another players integrity, the player didn't feel like it move and thus it didn't. Was his move risky? I think so but I also think he would have called the infraction if he thought it moved.

[hddude55]

18/1 Ball Moves Vertically Downward

Q. A ball lying in long grass slips vertically downward. Or a ball is accidentally stepped on and pressed down, say a quarter of an inch, in the grass or into the ground. In each case, has the ball moved?

 

A. Yes, unless the ball returns to its original position. The direction of movement is immaterial.

 

I didn't see it, so I don't know if it changed position.

 

Kevin

The ball didn't accidentally slip. He pressed down on the grass and moved it while addressing the ball-- multiple times -- and we all know tamping down grass behind the ball improves the lie, another rules violation. I hope no amateurs get the idea it's OK to deliberately act in a manner that moves your ball while addressing it. It's a stroke penalty. It will be interesting to see if this issue gets legs. You can bet tens of thousands of TV watchers saw it.

 

Are you kidding me? I am shocked this has really even become a question and a topic. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion and all, but I have seen this a million times during every golf tournament. No he did not improve his lie by placing his club down behind the ball to see how it would sit. And no, the ball did not ever come to rest outside of its original position. The comment about the commentators not saying anything because they are in bed with the players is funny, yet absurd!

You've seen players yo-yo balls a million times every golf tournament? I have been watching golf since Arnie made it a TV event and have never seen a guy repeatedly placed his club directly behind a ball in deep grass and repeatedly move it as Pat did. And I suspect that's why I have seen many posts on various golf boards asking questions about it. As for the incident, it seems like nonsense to believe the ball returned to its exact location after yo-yoing it several times and equally silly to not believe his lie was improved by repeatedly pushing down on the grass. As for the posts that claim it's a black and white situation and the rules are so extensive that interpretation isn't needed, even touring pro golfers frequently need rulings. When it comes to rules, regulations and the laws of the land, gray is everywhere. I think Pat definitely improved his lie and certainly moved the ball, if only a fraction of an inch upwards or downwards. I am amazed by the people posting here who think it's OK. Do you do this when you play?

[Redman]

18/1 Ball Moves Vertically Downward

Q. A ball lying in long grass slips vertically downward. Or a ball is accidentally stepped on and pressed down, say a quarter of an inch, in the grass or into the ground. In each case, has the ball moved?

 

A. Yes, unless the ball returns to its original position. The direction of movement is immaterial.

 

I didn't see it, so I don't know if it changed position.

 

Kevin

The ball didn't accidentally slip. He pressed down on the grass and moved it while addressing the ball-- multiple times -- and we all know tamping down grass behind the ball improves the lie, another rules violation. I hope no amateurs get the idea it's OK to deliberately act in a manner that moves your ball while addressing it. It's a stroke penalty. It will be interesting to see if this issue gets legs. You can bet tens of thousands of TV watchers saw it.

 

Are you kidding me? I am shocked this has really even become a question and a topic. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion and all, but I have seen this a million times during every golf tournament. No he did not improve his lie by placing his club down behind the ball to see how it would sit. And no, the ball did not ever come to rest outside of its original position. The comment about the commentators not saying anything because they are in bed with the players is funny, yet absurd!

You've seen players yo-yo balls a million times every golf tournament? I have been watching golf since Arnie made it a TV event and have never seen a guy repeatedly placed his club directly behind a ball in deep grass and repeatedly move it as Pat did. And I suspect that's why I have seen many posts on various golf boards asking questions about it. As for the incident, it seems like nonsense to believe the ball returned to its exact location after yo-yoing it several times and equally silly to not believe his lie was improved by repeatedly pushing down on the grass. As for the posts that claim it's a black and white situation and the rules are so extensive that interpretation isn't needed, even touring pro golfers frequently need rulings. When it comes to rules, regulations and the laws of the land, gray is everywhere. I think Pat definitely improved his lie and certainly moved the ball, if only a fraction of an inch upwards or downwards. I am amazed by the people posting here who think it's OK. Do you do this when you play?

 

Yes, I have seen pros ground there club many many times like this in golf tournaments. Again, this time was much more pronounced because the ball was magnified so much. I guess the officials all watching this who do this all the time didn't really have a problem with it did they? Or maybe they were all just cheating so Pat could win his first tournament. And yes, I have certainly grounded my club in deep grass behind a ball like that. I couldn't tell you how much it may have moved up or down or whatever because as someone else said, you would never see that little of a movement from looking down on the ball. If a ball moves enough to be a penalty, you can tell. Just because he was grounding his club and the grass mashed down doesn't improve his lie.....according to the rules....maybe in your opinion. Technically when you are hitting a shot out of the rough for that matter and ground your club behind the ball and picked it up to waggle I am sure there were some blades of grass you bent down that didn't come back.

[Dill Pickleson]

at first i thought nothing of this thread, but now i badly want to see a vid, again another reason i wish i had tgc

[tjb39]

A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place. Not if it merely oscillates and retains its original position.

Everyone is somewhat right. There was movement, but not under penalty of the rules. But those who mentioned it was dangerous living are dead on. I wouldn't have the gutts to play around that much with the grass, and especially grass that long. But like many other said, there would have been a firestorm of comment from the announcers had there been a violation. Especially Nick

[MUCCI416]

its too bad no one has the clip on youtube or anywhere...

[KevCarter]

You've seen players yo-yo balls a million times every golf tournament? I have been watching golf since Arnie made it a TV event and have never seen a guy repeatedly placed his club directly behind a ball in deep grass and repeatedly move it as Pat did. And I suspect that's why I have seen many posts on various golf boards asking questions about it. As for the incident, it seems like nonsense to believe the ball returned to its exact location after yo-yoing it several times and equally silly to not believe his lie was improved by repeatedly pushing down on the grass. As for the posts that claim it's a black and white situation and the rules are so extensive that interpretation isn't needed, even touring pro golfers frequently need rulings. When it comes to rules, regulations and the laws of the land, gray is everywhere. I think Pat definitely improved his lie and certainly moved the ball, if only a fraction of an inch upwards or downwards. I am amazed by the people posting here who think it's OK. Do you do this when you play?

 

Would you care to share the conclusions they have come to on the "various golf boards?"

 

Kevin

[Deadpool_25]

You've seen players yo-yo balls a million times every golf tournament? I have been watching golf since Arnie made it a TV event and have never seen a guy repeatedly placed his club directly behind a ball in deep grass and repeatedly move it as Pat did. And I suspect that's why I have seen many posts on various golf boards asking questions about it. As for the incident, it seems like nonsense to believe the ball returned to its exact location after yo-yoing it several times and equally silly to not believe his lie was improved by repeatedly pushing down on the grass. As for the posts that claim it's a black and white situation and the rules are so extensive that interpretation isn't needed, even touring pro golfers frequently need rulings. When it comes to rules, regulations and the laws of the land, gray is everywhere. I think Pat definitely improved his lie and certainly moved the ball, if only a fraction of an inch upwards or downwards. I am amazed by the people posting here who think it's OK. Do you do this when you play?

 

Would you care to share the conclusions they have come to on the "various golf boards?"

 

Kevin

 

Yeah, are they all saying there should've been a penalty?

 

There are apparently two rules in question here:

 

1. Did the ball move out of its position

2. Did he improve his lie

 

Like Kevin, I haven't seen the clip (I'd like to). But it sounds clear just from the posts in this thread that the ball clearly wobbled, but looked to have settled in its orginal position. Clearly the announcers didn't see a need to comment so I doubt they thought it was an issue. If the camera was zoomed in on the ball and this is the only way its wobble was likely visible, and if even from that footage it's not clear that the ball moved out of position, then it's rather senseless (IMO) to be up in arms over it.

 

Did he improve his lie? He's allowed to lightly ground his club behind the ball when addressing it and this is not considered improving his lie (see rule 13-2). It sounds like it could be debated whether he was grounding his club "lightly" or if he was even technically "addressing the ball." However, it also sounds clear that Perez was testing his lie with the intent of testing his lie...not with the intent of improving his lie. Testing his lie in the rough is permissable. So, absent intent to improve his lie, was his lie "unduly improved? Decision 13-2/1.1 states, in part:

 

A. When fairly taking his stance the player is required to take his stance in the least intrusive manner that results in the minimum improvement in the position or lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or line of play.

 

It sounds like he was within the rules. Is it certain that his lie was actually improved? Doesn't sound like it. It sounds like the ball wobbled and might've moved a hair but it doesn't look like it moved at all. It sounds like he moved some blades of grass around while testing his lie, and that some of those blades of grass may (or may not) have stayed moved.

 

So the ball might have moved...but probably not. And he may have improved his lie minimally...but probably not. And in either case, if he had made an error, he wouldn't even have been aware of it (and neither would anyone else on scene).

 

If he had even THOUGHT there might be a problem he'd have likely called an official over. If the people in the booth thought there might've been an issue they'd probably have mentioned it.

 

So he probably didn't think there was any problem, the announcers didn't mention any problem, and even from extremely close-up footage it's not clear that there was any problem. So...what's the problem? LOL

 

Sounds clear that at the very least he was well within the spirit of the rules which is to ensure a fair competition.

 

Kevin

[chunker]

I learn something new here everyday... great place!

 

I was confused when I saw it on TV as well, but thought that I was just not understanding some rule out there... (which turned out to be the one where it returns to it's original position)... I figured, being that the announcers didn't mention it, he did nothing wrong.

 

Besides, just my $.02, I'm pretty sure Double P knew what he was doing... and again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think any touring pro would risk cheating. Not only to uphold the entire premise of the game's integrity, but also because they've got to know that all these high-tech cameras are on them capturing their every shot.

 

Congrats, Pat Perez, on your first win! Man, it's fun to watch him play!

[Pure745]

LOL.. i was watching this too.. and it seems very sketchy live when i saw it.. i think the rules officials were too busy trying not to get blown over by the 30mph winds.. i think if so many people are questioning it.. then there some sort of validity to a rules violation..

 

As far as Pat Perez.. i'm curious to see how good he really is when he's not playing on a compilation of resort courses in Palm Springs.. and the best player in the field isnt Steve Stricker.

[muxi87]

As far as Pat Perez.. i'm curious to see how good he really is when he's not playing on a compilation of resort courses in Palm Springs.. and the best player in the field isnt Steve Stricker.

I'll tell you exactly how good he is...

 

With his first PGA Tour victory on the line, he stepped up and piped a driver down the heart of the fairway...he then watched as 2 SUPERBLY talented PGA Tour players hit similar approach shots to his in the water...even after watching this, he sticks his shot from 205+ yards to 2 feet.

 

That's pretty damn good in my book!!!

[Fore_Man]

ok, this may be echoing but, I will state what i saw and give my opinion.

 

The ball clearly moved a few times, and IMO it was a deliberate act that caused it. He did it while going though his pre-shot routine. He grounded the club behind the ball in the rough and picked it up and put it back down a few times before motioning into his swing. Now, i thought for a second that he was actually trying to mat down the rough behind the ball prior to his swing, inorder to improve his lie... though only Pat knows the answer to that.

 

Anyways, the ball did move up and down as did the rough it was in. How would one tell if it was in the exact spot after it's movements? it's not like it was in the fairway and very obvious.... my guess is that only Pat, Caddy and all of the TV viewers saw it.

[Pure745]

As far as Pat Perez.. i'm curious to see how good he really is when he's not playing on a compilation of resort courses in Palm Springs.. and the best player in the field isnt Steve Stricker.

I'll tell you exactly how good he is...

 

With his first PGA Tour victory on the line, he stepped up and piped a driver down the heart of the fairway...he then watched as 2 SUPERBLY talented PGA Tour players hit similar approach shots to his in the water...even after watching this, he sticks his shot from 205+ yards to 2 feet.

 

That's pretty damn good in my book!!!

 

Those were great shots no doubt, i just dont think that tournament was hardly a test at all. I want to see how he stacks up agains the big dogs.. If/when he proves he can hold his own against the top 10 players in a final round.. i think he has a great personality that I would like to see on the Ryder Cup representing the USA.

[golfismygame]

Here you are:

 

And I did not see that ball "move" in the Rules sense of the word. I tried to fix my eyes on the straws in front of the ball - nothing was changed when the stroke was made.

The commentators didn't comment on it because there's wasn't anything to say about this.

[KevCarter]

Here you are:

 

And I did not see that ball "move" in the Rules sense of the word. I tried to fix my eyes on the straws in front of the ball - nothing was changed when the stroke was made.

The commentators didn't comment on it because there's wasn't anything to say about this.

 

Good find golfismygame. Now that I have seen it, I can't believe this thread was so contentious. Thanks for posting!

 

Kevin

[InTheHole]

+1. Agreed. No penalty.

[Got An Itch?]

First, hello from the PGA Merchandise Show!

 

Alright. I just watched the clip. To me, that ball was cradled in the grass and while the ball does clearly dip and return, it did not settle and it did not roll. For me, it didn't change its position and therefore, no penalty. I've called penalties on myself when my ball has moved in competition and I would not have called one on myself there. I really believe the he is in the clear on this one.

[KevCarter]

First, hello from the PGA Merchandise Show!

 

Alright. I just watched the clip. To me, that ball was cradled in the grass and while the ball does clearly dip and return, it did not settle and it did not roll. For me, it didn't change its position and therefore, no penalty. I've called penalties on myself when my ball has moved in competition and I would not have called one on myself there. I really believe the he is in the clear on this one.

 

Hi Kevin, I hope you and Ari have a great show!

 

KC

[Dill Pickleson]

Here you are:

 

And I did not see that ball "move" in the Rules sense of the word. I tried to fix my eyes on the straws in front of the ball - nothing was changed when the stroke was made.

The commentators didn't comment on it because there's wasn't anything to say about this.

 

 

thanks for the vid

 

no penalty

[Pure745]

man.. i get nervous doing that for fear that the ball will move.. i mean the ball and grass are both "moving" but not from its original point.. just scares me to see that when he's in the lead!