What I see thats Different

[jp12g]

What I see in all that, is this.

 

A man with a right arm bent more than the left at impact, yet a right arm that has straightened dramatically from half way in the downswing and a left arm that is also often bent a bit at impact. So what? that doesnt mean he isnt primarily hitting with his arms at that stage.

 

What I also see is that his hips are open to the target early because having moved them laterally early as far as he did, they had nowhere else to go but around. But at this stage they have no influence on the swing. What does is maintaing the line of the shoulders. Hogan tilts them more than rotates them before the strike to keep the right shoulder back.

 

I also see a man who gets his right leg and knee and right shoulder into a longditudinal position halfway down , at which point he desperately tries to prevent from moving much at all until the strike. At this stage in the swing the arms are accelerating past the body. Look how contorted he is trying to hold his body back immediately after the strike and how long he tries to keep his right foot on the ground.

 

All signs of hitting into a position, not pivoting or body rotating controlling the strike in the hitting zone.

 

And BTW, the point of my original post , I think you can also see how Hogan's wrist has still not supinated in the frame before the strike.

[magnum184]

What I see in all that, is this.

 

A man with a right arm bent more than the left at impact, yet a right arm that has straightened dramatically from half way in the downswing and a left arm that is also often bent a bit at impact. So what? that doesnt mean he isnt primarily hitting with his arms at that stage.

 

What I also see is that his hips are open to the target early because having moved them laterally early as far as he did, they had nowhere else to go but around. But at this stage they have no influence on the swing. What does is maintaing the line of the shoulders. Hogan tilts them more than rotates them before the strike to keep the right shoulder back.

 

I also see a man who gets his right leg and knee and right shoulder into a longditudinal position halfway down , at which point he desperately tries to prevent from moving much at all until the strike. At this stage in the swing the arms are accelerating past the body. Look how contorted he is trying to hold his body back immediately after the strike and how long he tries to keep his right foot on the ground.

 

All signs of hitting into a position, not pivoting or body rotating controlling the strike in the hitting zone.

 

And BTW, the point of my original post , I think you can also see how Hogan's wrist has still not supinated in the frame before the strike.

 

 

Well, I just don't see how any of that applies to his swing. It certainly doesn't sound like anything he ever spoke of..........not even any of his cryptic clues. About the shoulder slowing down.....................I think you are seeing something important, but maybe not understanding why it does that.

 

Some other things to consider...

 

1. Look at some photos or video from face on or up the line and notice how his left arm generally stays tight to the left chest. That would make it hard for the arms to be directing without a pivot wouldn't you say?

 

2. Start thinking 3 dimensionally when you analyze a golf swing from video or photos. Perhaps the right shoulder is moving even though it appears not to be moving..................think DEPTH.

 

Tylenol for any headaches. Midol for any cramps. LOL. Heck, I might need it if I don't survive this. :lol:

[Siteseer2]

great stuff, Magnum... anything us mere mortals can apply, or was it unique to Hogan... I'm always amazed by his positions... and how to get there:

 

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...DN%26start%3D60

[eightiron]

What I see in all that, is this.

 

A man with a right arm bent more than the left at impact, yet a right arm that has straightened dramatically from half way in the downswing and a left arm that is also often bent a bit at impact. So what? that doesnt mean he isnt primarily hitting with his arms at that stage.

 

What I also see is that his hips are open to the target early because having moved them laterally early as far as he did, they had nowhere else to go but around. But at this stage they have no influence on the swing. What does is maintaing the line of the shoulders. Hogan tilts them more than rotates them before the strike to keep the right shoulder back.

 

I also see a man who gets his right leg and knee and right shoulder into a longditudinal position halfway down , at which point he desperately tries to prevent from moving much at all until the strike. At this stage in the swing the arms are accelerating past the body. Look how contorted he is trying to hold his body back immediately after the strike and how long he tries to keep his right foot on the ground.

 

Its called 2nd Tilt...second axis tilt...you are saying it in a way as to what you see is happening...

Magnum has a totally different view of how Hogan moves into his 2nd Tilt

[dream_stryker]

Great back and forth guys but now I'm confused.

 

1. Does the right shoulder return to address position at impact or before impact?

 

If the shoulders are square at address and the right shoulder returns to its address postion for the strike, how then can they be open at impact? Wouldn't they be square?

 

If the right shoulder drives pass its address position before impact, how do you not swing OTT?

 

Sorry for the simple questions but Im trying to understand.

[magnum184]

What I see in all that, is this.

 

A man with a right arm bent more than the left at impact, yet a right arm that has straightened dramatically from half way in the downswing and a left arm that is also often bent a bit at impact. So what? that doesnt mean he isnt primarily hitting with his arms at that stage.

 

What I also see is that his hips are open to the target early because having moved them laterally early as far as he did, they had nowhere else to go but around. But at this stage they have no influence on the swing. What does is maintaing the line of the shoulders. Hogan tilts them more than rotates them before the strike to keep the right shoulder back.

 

I also see a man who gets his right leg and knee and right shoulder into a longditudinal position halfway down , at which point he desperately tries to prevent from moving much at all until the strike. At this stage in the swing the arms are accelerating past the body. Look how contorted he is trying to hold his body back immediately after the strike and how long he tries to keep his right foot on the ground.

 

All signs of hitting into a position, not pivoting or body rotating controlling the strike in the hitting zone.

 

And BTW, the point of my original post , I think you can also see how Hogan's wrist has still not supinated in the frame before the strike.

 

 

Like I said earlier, I think you're seeing something real with the shoulder. But, I don't know how well it can be explained over the computer or in still photos, etc... But, stopping there with it can't be done.

 

It's just that when I hear the pivot rotation stopping or not having a role when talking Hogan.............red flags go up. Hell, pivot rotation with anyone stopping........red flags go up.

 

The right shoulder may appear to brake. It may appear not to advance. I certainly could understand how it might look like the arms are taking over from there by themselves because that is the simplest answer.

 

Imagine a pencil standing on it's point. Spin the pencil. It's spinning but not moving position. Don't read too much into that simple example. I'm just trying to make the point of what one may see without seeing the entire picture. But, it's moving and not moving at the same time. Just depends on how thorough you look at it.

 

Heck, I don't know. If you see the right braking/slowing down/whatever............see what the other side of the body is doing at that time and after.

[jp12g]

Actually I dont think there is a lot of difference in our interpretations. Whatever Hogan was concentrating on most is anyones guess. I just think the man gets to a position with his body very early, from which to strike hard with his arms on a low and consistent plane, doesnt allow his shoulders to open anything more than marginally before the hit. I believe he is not consciously rotating anything other than his arms in the second part of the downswing. Hogan himself said he only wanted to turn his hips.

 

If we look at how he achieved such late wrist supination/clubhead squaring and relative right arm straightening just before impact, logic and basic mechanical principles suggest that he is likely to have achieved those things by changing the relative speed of his shoulders to his arms/club in the downswing. So, he builds up swing speed during the backswing and gets a little extra with right shoulder movement out and down in the initial part of the downswing assisted by completing his lower body shift to the left. Then the right side slows and the arms continue to accelerate, taking all the swing energy with them and ultimately, putting so much force into the clubhead at impact that it has to square up. Hogan said he helped it by hitting hard with his right hand and I'm sure he did. So the transfer of energy to the arms and hands continues the acceleration of the club to past impact.

 

He achieves a whipcrack impact, a unique sound and there are no power leaks.

 

Consider what would have happened if he had agressively turned his shoulders consciously through the shot. He is unlikely to have been able to have kept his shoulders square to the line at impact and so would have either come out of shots occasionally or started them left quite often. Remember that Hogan kept his left arm close to his chest, so his swing path/ball flight is going to go where his shoulders point at impact. The only way to avoid the pull shot with open shoulders at impact is to swing the left arm away from the body like Trevino or Leyman. Demaret says Hogan NEVER came out of a shot and there are other accounts that state his ball flight always started out straight.

 

The other thing to consider is that if the shoulders and body continued to either move forward or spin agressively in the second part of the downswing, this would REDUCE the energy transfer to the arms and hands, making a square hit and a whipcrack accelerated release less likely.

 

Using my own non golfing analagy, ever see someone actually crack a whip? Ever done it yourselves? If so you would know that it never cracks unless you can suddenly transfer the force you apply to the handle, out to the tip very abruptly/rapidly. How do you do that? You develop some movement and speed in the whip through the handle, then abruptly stop the handle moving or move it backwards. This action trasfers energy into the tip, and a similar principle applied to a lesser extent in Hogan's swing IMO.

[golfbulldog]

jp12g,

 

As I said earlier, I think there is some alteration in the flow of teh right shoulder motion which in 2D makes it look like it almost stops...when I was playing around with that feeling 2 years ago it linked in with the time the left arm started to blast off my chest....release of accumulator 4... but the shoulder never really stopped...the left shoulder started to go up...as the upper body opened up and axis tilt occured.

 

 

I think that the conscious feelings/intentions can not unreasonably be guessed at from the 2 slow motion sequences that we have:

 

 

and the lesson:

 

 

The left shoulder up move seems to be occuring earlier in his slo swing..maybe?

 

Glad you are here jp12g, always good to challenge preconceptions, thanks, never know what we might find!

[jp12g]

I think its rewarding to analyse the great swings, look for similarities and differences and try to understand why some techniques work and why a lot of good swing appear so different yet remain effective.

 

There is however one inescapable fact which is, that all the best swings have consistent arcs into the ball from halfway down into the backswing to impact,; arcs that mimic the shaft plane of the club in hand at address, which of course is different for each club. In fact every golfer has 13 different shaft planes to replicate if they are to swing consistently with each club.

 

Another truth is that body movement may help and facilitate a successful swing, but in the zone that really matters, where the rubber meets the road, you have to have your arms and hands delivering all the movement and power you want to expend on the ball, on the correct plane and arc, because no other body part is connected to the club or influences the strike in any significant way in that part of the swing.

 

So the most critical parts of Hogan's swing, or Moe Norman's or Tiger Wood's is their ability to repeat , time and time again, this exact and unique path/plane/arc for each club into the hitting zone. How they got the club into position to perform that trick is quite different in each case.

 

We can admire these swings and try to copy movements and positions in one or the other or some of each, but almost all of us will have some success but eventually fail, if those body movements arent completely natural for us of if performing/achieving them distract us from the purpose of golf, which is to hit the ball to a target.

 

Call me a Hogan heretic if you like, but I believe most amateurs and some pros have entirely the wrong idea about how to achieve a repeatable golf swing ON THE COURSE.

 

I also believe that one of the first Hall of Fame Golf teachers has an answer for the majority of us that makes golf logical and much easier to play sucessfully. This is a method that is not new, but oft forgotten and DOES NOT RELY ON teaching BODY POSITIONS, WEIGHT SHIFT or SWING PLANES.

 

It relies on a square setup, one backswing key for all clubs, one downswing key for all clubs and one visual image only. This method applies to everything from driver to putts.

 

If you really want an easy way to play good golf and can't put in the thousands of hours practice that made Hogan's and Moe's unique swings automatic for them, I recommend seriously that you consider a personal paradigm shift and get this DVD and Book.

 

http://www.manueldelatorregolf.com/book_dvd.html

 

 

I have no commercial interest in this, just want to give you guys, who are obviously all keenly interested in improvement, an easier alternative that will probably make your golf better and more enjoyable than it is now. I have just obtained both from Amazon and I must say the lights have gone on for the first time. :wave:

[eightiron]

Yeah thanks for the advice...Whats the price?

[jp12g]

If you click on the link to the DVD on that page there is another link to the Amazon page where you can buy either the DVD or Book or both, or those and Ernest Jones book on which this later theory was based.

 

They arent particularly expensive and I think there are some second hand copies available. The DVD is very professionally produced at a US Country Club and the book is very comprehensive in explaining how this process works. If you can only afford one first, get the DVD because visual images and listening to the man explain this is the most valuable part of understanding his method.

 

Dont expect a lot of positional swing theory though, its not there. Why? Because in this swing, the body is entirely passive; it finds its own correct position for every body type and for every club and every natural posture, everywhere in the swing sequence, without conscious body movement. However he clearly demonstates this. VERY clearly. Thats why this method is repeatable and why you can take it to the course successfully.

 

Believe it...or not.

 

But DO believe this. This guy is the real deal, not some snake oil salesman advertising in the back of a golf magazine with the latest "secret"

 

You'll never, never know, if you never ever go! :wave:

 

BTW as a postscript, on reading the forward to the book by Carol Mann, hall of famer and winner of 37 tournaments, she relates that early in her career she became very friendly with Mickey Wright, who advised her to study the Ernest Jones method. Now whats really interesting and relevant to this subforum is that Ben Hogan once said that Micky Wright had the best swing he had ever seen, man or woman. She still is arguably, the best female golfer who ever played the game, although some would put Annika Sorenstam and /or Lady Heathcote Amory in that class also.

[JD3]

There is video on U Tube where Hogan is describing his downswing move. He emphasises strongly that the lower body turns back, but the shoulders DONT. Another way of saying the same thing would be "dont let the shoulders turn through in the downswing". I have often seen people say that Hogan only described what he thought he was doing, not what he actually did. I think thats a lot of Hot C..k! A man that intelligent who made studying the golf swing his life's work, knew EXACTLY what he was doing. I have his biography and in that somewhere is a quote wnere he was asked whether, with modern stop frame photography and high speed video analysis, he would qualify or change anything in 5 Lessons. His answer was that there was no need to change anything!

 

If the shoulders are held back from turning but the hips are allowed to move laterally while the head is kept in the same position, you have to get a greater tilt of the spine to the right [from the hips to the neck] than the spine had at the top of the backswing. This can clearly be seen in Hogan's swing. When that happens the arms will appear to drop slightly and the right shoulder will drop slightly, but only as a consequence of the lateral hip movement.

 

Look at most good players from behind in stop frame or slow motion and you will see similar right shoulder movements, or rather restriction of right shoulder movement before contact. Look at Greg Norman, still a relatively upright swinger and Tiger Woods. If you look at what they do to keep the right shoulder back, as far away from the line of the shot in the downswing as it was at address, it looks so cramped and even painful, their bodies are contorted so much trying to maintain that position. The right shoulder is allowed to move out directly after impact, giving the impression of a fluid turning of the shoulders, but its not, its an INTERRUPTED turning of the right shoulder.

 

Thats what allows good players to release properly. The hip movements happen partially as a result of the arms releasing the torsion created at the top of their swings. Its the upper arms that produce both the path and major power in the hit. At the point of impact the hands are relative passengers, their main role is to guide the clubhead passively to replicate the clubhead's address position when the forces acting through the arms extend fully to the hands and then clubhead.

jp12g ....

 

could Hogan be doing what's described in this video? This move wouldn't turn the shoulders but it could cause the hands and arms to drop. and then when the turning starts they are in a position to be delivered thru impact without further adjustment.

 

[gators78]

What seems somewhat under-discussed is Hogan's comments about keeping his left arm pinned to his chest longer... made the comment to Jackie Burke... and was NOT in the Life Article or 5 Modern Fundamentals...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7eIVD8OZAE...t=1&index=2

 

Coupled with his strong Pivot, this allowed him to release left, and fully release his lag.

 

In his earlier swing he was a more DTL slinger, and had more shoulder tilt which caused him to be under the shot more, and release more down the line.

 

http://www.historicgolfphotos.com/Ben_Hoga...12-0100-LE.html

 

Laying his left arm across his chest longer, and pivoting left with a low left release is significantly different move than in his early days.

 

From a quick analysis of your first video it seems that what Hogan does can't really be described as pinning the left arm to the chest because clearly he lets it move shortly after impact, or I should say he does but it has to be more specific.

 

I would have to imagine a drill where you take the common practice of putting tees under your arms and modifying that a little bit, where you would actually place the tees under your arms but from the back side of your arm pit. I get the impression if you were to pin your arms to your chest and lose that connection between the back part of your armpit and your chest you couldn't swing as fast (a la Furyk, how he REALLY gets that bicept riding up his chest through impact) and if you were to use the modified tee drill you could really let it go where the pivot is the main engine, and then obviously let the tees fall in the follow through.

 

Think more of having your tricept connect to your lats as opposed to your bicept connected to your pectoral muscle. Obviously once you start to turn the bicep will make contact with the pectoral simply because your body is moving faster than your arms at first, but I think if you can feel the connection farther/deeper into the arms and chest you'll let the pivot drive. I also think this could be hard for people with bigger trunks because they'll give it the T-Rex tiny arm address position.

 

Maybe I'm way off, that's just my $0.02 from a total amateur hogan aficianado.

[JD3]

Reading thru the entire thread I wish I had seen this earlier as the OP made some challenging points and seems to have moved on. The one I don't agree with is that Hogan consciously "rotated" his arms thru impact. He made it clear in the Coleman video that the rear hand doesn't move "down or around" just forward.

 

The one that stuck with me the most is his point that Hogan only emphasized active hip rotation (after some lateral movement) in the downswing, and not shoulders, the latter a key point of rotation emphasis for many Hogan-influenced instructors. I don't have 5 Lessons in front of me but I do recall the part on hip rotation and I think shoulder rotation is mentioned in the sequencing part of "hips, shoulders, arms, hands, club." I guess it could be argued either way if that specifically emphasizes conscious shoulder action or if it's more passive as part of the chain.

 

What's interesting is that if you look the TW swing prior to Haney when he was more of a "hitter", his shoulders make a measurably fuller rotation than Hogan's, who is known as a "swinger."

 

 

 

Shouldn't it be the opposite? Shouldn't the "slinger" like Tiger have less shoulder rotation versus the guy Hogan that is supposed to be concentrating so much on shoulder rotation?

 

And I know it's a different club, but in Hogan's famous 1 iron at Merion, he finishes with his shoulders more square to the target than perpendicular:

Hogan's 1 Iron Finish

 

Again, is this consistent with a guy totally focused on rotating every part of his core to the max?

[WorkingOnIt]

I think in that picture the difference is that Tiger is letting his left elbow fly away in the finish pulling his left shoulder back with it. In Hogan's follow through he kept both elbows close all the way to the finish and didn't let the left elbow pull away like that which keeps the shoulders more square. If you ever swing with a strap around your upper arms your finish ends up looking a lot like Hogan's does there.

[JD3]

I think in that picture the difference is that Tiger is letting his left elbow fly away in the finish pulling his left shoulder back with it. In Hogan's follow through he kept both elbows close all the way to the finish and didn't let the left elbow pull away like that which keeps the shoulders more square. If you ever swing with a strap around your upper arms your finish ends up looking a lot like Hogan's does there.

i think that makes sense. another point i am thinking is that BH didnt really didnt consciously turn much of anything on his downswing but his hips. he just kept em' going around and let them drag the shoulders and arms with them. when that happens the shoulders really have no where to go but around with them. this has added benefit of building Xfactor torque on the downswing (something J Miller said he did), and also helps to keep his weight from getting to the outside of his front foot .... maybe why he never came out of a shot!

 

in this classic video one might conclude he alludes to that:

 

 

importantly he also mentions knees when he talks about hip turn, an acknowledgement i take of getting to the front pivot point too.

 

whereas a TW -- especially pre-Haney -- would make his arms go "ballistic" in the impact area which probably has the effect of leading the shoulders around to what's ultimately a slightly fuller turn.

 

obviously this is inferring a great deal from the comparitive pictures, but hogan's hips seem to have rotated more than tiger's, tiger's shoulders more, the latter consistent w/ a guy that uses his arms more, interrupting the kinetic chain.

[asprin02]

Keep in mind the videos and pictures of Hogan are when he is older, post accident and out of his prime. As he got older his shoulders were always less rotated through the shot compared to his younger days....

 

I wouldn't say tiger rotates his hands through the ball like Mickelson does. But he is definitely more of a DTL re leaser than purer rotary swingers.

[markponi]

I think jp12g makes some very interesting points only because I've tried to incorporate a lot of it into my own swing. Here is my swing change story. About 18 months ago I started totally revamping my swing after doing the old 'over the top' nonsense that prevented me from being a good golfer. It took a long time to change my backswing (keep the right knee flex, take club back over, not below plane line) and downswing (fire the hips, don't slide) to where my club shaft was back on the shaft plane when my hands where about waist high before impact.

 

Anyway, even though I got better very quickly, I would still hit some heely slices from time to time, especially with the longer clubs. My instructor and I could easily see that my club shaft steepened and my hands ended up about 6 to 10 inches higher at impact than they were at address (easy to see why I hit heely slices) and my hands were way way way too far ahead of the ball at impact (Clampett would think that is perfect but I can assure you if you have a ton of lag but can't release it, it sucks).

 

At first my instuctor and I thought it was sliding the hips, so we worked on quieting them until that improved...still no improvement on steep shaft at impact. We then worked on really covering the ball with my chest through impact but that didn't fix anything either. Finally, he told me to start releasing the club very early in the down swing. Although that made my swing 'look' better, it was very manual and unrepeatable and I told him that and to say he wasn't happy was an understatement. If you are trying to manipulate the club with your forearms you are not doing something else right IMOP.

 

Anyway, I recently read a catch all golf secret book called 'The Secret of Golf' and one passage from Michael Witte and David Glenz (top 100 from NJ) talked about a move called 'The Pinch' that all great ball strikers have. Basically your left shoulder moves up and back which maintains the fulcrum lever created by a shorter left arm (caused by the right hand gripping below the left). I tried it with a ton of manual effort and inconsistency but occasionally I would hit nice draws with my 3 wood, something I could rarely if ever do before. So I knew I was on to something but 'The Pinch' was still to manual a move.

 

So I started experimenting with this to 'automate' this move and basically wandered upon hitting on a firm left side in which my left hip joint raises (and does not move forward!), my left shoulder raises (and does not forward, in fact, it moves back) and I try to arrive at the ball with my both my hips and shoulders square to the target line and then hitting the wall and going upwards, not around. I started hitting it great and have been for about 4 weeks now. I play a difficult course in northern va and now shoot in the mid 70s when about 2 months ago I was high 80s.

 

On video, my right shoulder is not MUCH lower as I approach the ball and my left should is also much higher. My shoulders are a bit open and so are my hips although it doesn't feel this way. My hands are much better at impact and my release is much more to the inside with a proper release of the lag. So basically by me trying to stop the rotation and have the rotational energy blocked by raising the left hip and shoulder to form a 'hitting wall'. I also noticed that my right foot stays planted on the ground much longer.

 

Perhaps our BioKinetic guru Darius explain this to me. Although Hogan didn't mention this, by me feeling this action, my move now looks much more Hoganesque (although it isn't close it is closer!!!) and less like Danny from Caddyshack.

 

Your thoughts? You dudes have taught me know than any book about the golf swing and I would like to hear what you think about this. I do not think Hogan purposely stopped his right shoulder but it may be possible that he (or all good ball strikers) do something like what I'm describing because I tried to rotate and square the club using a pivot for approximately 9 months with little to no success.

 

Thanks in advance and sorry for the length of this post. I will post screen shots of me before and after when I'm home and not on my work computer if there is interest.

[Dariusz J.]

I think jp12g makes some very interesting points only because I've tried to incorporate a lot of it into my own swing. Here is my swing change story. About 18 months ago I started totally revamping my swing after doing the old 'over the top' nonsense that prevented me from being a good golfer. It took a long time to change my backswing (keep the right knee flex, take club back over, not below plane line) and downswing (fire the hips, don't slide) to where my club shaft was back on the shaft plane when my hands where about waist high before impact.

 

Anyway, even though I got better very quickly, I would still hit some heely slices from time to time, especially with the longer clubs. My instructor and I could easily see that my club shaft steepened and my hands ended up about 6 to 10 inches higher at impact than they were at address (easy to see why I hit heely slices) and my hands were way way way too far ahead of the ball at impact (Clampett would think that is perfect but I can assure you if you have a ton of lag but can't release it, it sucks).

 

At first my instuctor and I thought it was sliding the hips, so we worked on quieting them until that improved...still no improvement on steep shaft at impact. We then worked on really covering the ball with my chest through impact but that didn't fix anything either. Finally, he told me to start releasing the club very early in the down swing. Although that made my swing 'look' better, it was very manual and unrepeatable and I told him that and to say he wasn't happy was an understatement. If you are trying to manipulate the club with your forearms you are not doing something else right IMOP.

 

Anyway, I recently read a catch all golf secret book called 'The Secret of Golf' and one passage from Michael Witte and David Glenz (top 100 from NJ) talked about a move called 'The Pinch' that all great ball strikers have. Basically your left shoulder moves up and back which maintains the fulcrum lever created by a shorter left arm (caused by the right hand gripping below the left). I tried it with a ton of manual effort and inconsistency but occasionally I would hit nice draws with my 3 wood, something I could rarely if ever do before. So I knew I was on to something but 'The Pinch' was still to manual a move.

 

So I started experimenting with this to 'automate' this move and basically wandered upon hitting on a firm left side in which my left hip joint raises (and does not move forward!), my left shoulder raises (and does not forward, in fact, it moves back) and I try to arrive at the ball with my both my hips and shoulders square to the target line and then hitting the wall and going upwards, not around. I started hitting it great and have been for about 4 weeks now. I play a difficult course in northern va and now shoot in the mid 70s when about 2 months ago I was high 80s.

 

On video, my right shoulder is not MUCH lower as I approach the ball and my left should is also much higher. My shoulders are a bit open and so are my hips although it doesn't feel this way. My hands are much better at impact and my release is much more to the inside with a proper release of the lag. So basically by me trying to stop the rotation and have the rotational energy blocked by raising the left hip and shoulder to form a 'hitting wall'. I also noticed that my right foot stays planted on the ground much longer.

 

Perhaps our BioKinetic guru Darius explain this to me. Although Hogan didn't mention this, by me feeling this action, my move now looks much more Hoganesque (although it isn't close it is closer!!!) and less like Danny from Caddyshack.

 

Your thoughts? You dudes have taught me know than any book about the golf swing and I would like to hear what you think about this. I do not think Hogan purposely stopped his right shoulder but it may be possible that he (or all good ball strikers) do something like what I'm describing because I tried to rotate and square the club using a pivot for approximately 9 months with little to no success.

 

Thanks in advance and sorry for the length of this post. I will post screen shots of me before and after when I'm home and not on my work computer if there is interest.

 

Mark, this is a great and very educational post. Although I am certainly not a "guru" I'll try to explain this physical phenomenon the best way I can. Actually, it is a very simple phenomenon that allows to release the whole kinetic chain in a proper way and is a very important part of the SPC concept called the second (impact) compression.

In order to understand it well we must differ the two scenarios - a. compression phase that is aimed at the change of orientation (direction of movement) and b. compression phase that happens without the change of orientation (direction of movement). The first one of course happens between backswing and downswing, while the second one happens at impact when the whole kinetic chain is being released at the ball. The chain is the whole human body starting from the ground/feet ending on the arms/hands/clubhead. The release is just passing the stored energy to the more distal parts of the system and it is done via consequent stalling of former links in this chain - i.e. in order to pass the energy to the arms, the main body and the shoulder joint must stall.

But during downswing nothing can stall because the body is in constant rapid movement till the finish. So how to pass the energy to the arms ? Look at this photo sequence:

 

 

 

The ball position indicates vertically when the chain is being released correctly. It means that the lead shoulder should (hypothetically) stall at this line in order to let the distal limb and, consequently, the clubshaft and clubhead to release the energy and achieve the peak velocity. If the lead shoulder continues to move linearily to the target in a 2-D, the chain wouldn't be released at all.

However, if the lead shoulder, which must be still in rapid motion, stops to move horizontally and starts to move vertically up (say, on the red line up) in 3-D, so the chain must be released because its position in relation to the ball does not change in the horizontal 2-D sense - say, the ball "sees" the lead shoulder stalls completely.

 

This is a very simple physical phenomenon that allows the compression phase to occur without stopping the motion and without changing the orientation of the whole movement. The second (impact) compression phase.

 

 

 

Cheers

[markponi]

Thanks for that input. It is very helpful and definitely makes sense. To the golf swing layman (myself but getting better), I believe emphasizing the body pivot (core continues to pivot) to release the kinetic chain properly can confuse people. When I focused on continuing to pivot hard with my body, my arms flew out from my chest and I had a ton of other issues. Here are some photos of my before swing.

 

When I focused on stopping the rotation and posting up with my left hip and shoulder, my impact and release was much easier to replicate, with much better results. And although I'm trying to stop and post up on my left side, through impact my club head moves forcefully down to the left.

 

Much better right!?!?!?!

My experiments with my swing have lead me to the conclusion that only with a proper, on plane downswing along with a proper 'stalling', or posting up, enables the club head to continue traveling on plane with maximum velocity. Only a few weeks ago I was under the impression that you had to turn your chest hard to keep your left arm pinned against your chest into and past impact. But when I post up my left shoulder and hip, just before impact, my right should drops in reaction, and the club head whips down to the left and I can really attack it with my '3 right hands' because I know the club will travel on the correct plane through the ball.

 

So to me, I feel like I pivot very hard in transition, but then almost stop the pivot and transfer the energy upwards instead of around. Trying to continue the pivot was some sort of culprit in screwing up my swing. My lats and hips are very sore after practicing this for about 500 balls.

[Dariusz J.]

Thanks for that input. It is very helpful and definitely makes sense. To the golf swing layman (myself but getting better), I believe emphasizing the body pivot (core continues to pivot) to release the kinetic chain properly can confuse people. When I focused on continuing to pivot hard with my body, my arms flew out from my chest and I had a ton of other issues. Here are some photos of my before swing.

 

When I focused on stopping the rotation and posting up with my left hip and shoulder, my impact and release was much easier to replicate, with much better results. And although I'm trying to stop and post up on my left side, through impact my club head moves forcefully down to the left.

 

Much better right!?!?!?!

My experiments with my swing have lead me to the conclusion that only with a proper, on plane downswing along with a proper 'stalling', or posting up, enables the club head to continue traveling on plane with maximum velocity. Only a few weeks ago I was under the impression that you had to turn your chest hard to keep your left arm pinned against your chest into and past impact. But when I post up my left shoulder and hip, just before impact, my right should drops in reaction, and the club head whips down to the left and I can really attack it with my '3 right hands' because I know the club will travel on the correct plane through the ball.

 

So to me, I feel like I pivot very hard in transition, but then almost stop the pivot and transfer the energy upwards instead of around. Trying to continue the pivot was some sort of culprit in screwing up my swing. My lats and hips are very sore after practicing this for about 500 balls.

 

Yep, in short - firm rear side approaching transition, firm lead side approaching impact. Both from the ground up. Both created unintentionally.

 

BTW, good pics illustrations of yours, Mark.

 

Cheers

[AlexCzervic]

It's just an illusion, right? Flatter swing plane, shoulders appear to move less at far right and left when not viewed perpendicular(when viewed in plane would look very dramatic). When viewed perpendicular to plane it is consistent.

Darius,

Good work,Enjoyed your thoughts as usual.

[mainegolfa]

point#1: I'm not saying you're wrong but I dont think when Jim Maclean or any one else refers to restricting hip turn they aren't speaking of zero hip turn. Of the course the hips must turn in order to create enough body rotation to stay synched up.

Point#2: Watching hogan in his sixties doing a manual slow mo swing and comparing that to his actual swing in his prime really to me is niether here nor there. watch enough footage and you'll see that his supination does begin in transition. It IS possible to retain all the lag that he does while supinating for at least two reasons. He used a long thumb grip which provides maximum wrist flexibility even with a weak grip. Hogan swung really flat and thusly the club is really shallow, especially considering he's a bit laid off. because his arms are swung deep, for instance his left arm is angled some 40* or so inside the inclined plane line at 9 o'clock, it gives the appearance that there is more wristcock(lag, or #2 power accumulator) than there really is. remember when quantifying angles one must view the angles from the proper perspective. since you are viewing the swing(front view) from an off angle to that of the left arm, and the club is being held on plane or in line with that arm(accumulator #1) you really are not at the correct view point to judge the actual angle created. This is why players with a more upright plane apear wider and players with flatter a swing appear more loaded. it's just geometry.

Point #3. The pivot/ right shoulder does NOT stall once the shoulders have reached square. Once pivot acceleration subsides, the power accumulators release themselves due to centripetal force flowing outward through the kinetic chain. Imagine driving in your with cruise control on. You have settled into a constant state of speed which lies between acceleration and deceleration. Remeber the club head is moving much faster than the shoulders, if it wasn't, you'd not hit it anywhere. In other words, what you're seeing is not the body slowing down, but the arms hands and club speeding up, with the body having settled into a constant rate of rotation through impact.

great discussion and sorry but, you did ask to be picked apart.