Jody Vasquez on Hogan's "Secret"

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1338321985' post='4995728']
[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1338132831' post='4984938']
It's simple, the left hip goes forward by going backwards.
[/quote]


110% YES!
[/quote]

I don't understand. Care to elaborate?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1338132831' post='4984938']
It's simple, the left hip goes forward by going backwards.
[/quote]

It's already forward when it goes backward.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1338333959' post='4996960']
[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1338132831' post='4984938']
It's simple, the left hip goes forward by going backwards.
[/quote]

It's already forward when it goes backward.
[/quote]

clear as mud, thanks!!

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1338333959' post='4996960']
[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1338132831' post='4984938']
It's simple, the left hip goes forward by going backwards.
[/quote]

It's already forward when it goes backward.
[/quote]

I admire your short but sweet posts MJ...and to add, the R hip must participate...otherwise you'll end up with too much 2nd/axist tilt...

[nicebutdim]

I had a quick scan through '5 Lessons' and dug up a very important reference that Hogan makes about the right knee. He maybe did not spell it out to people (like he said to Jody Vasquez) but he most certainly hints at the importance here:

[size=5][i]"The right knee should be broken a shade more in to the left, if anything, than the left knee is to the right. If the right knee is pointed in, then it's "in business" all the time. It helps brace the right leg on the backswing, and the right leg must be sturdily braced to prevent the golfer from swaying his body laterally to the right as he swings the club back. For another thing, [b]the right knee will then be in the correct position for the downswing when the [u]power of the right hip and leg is released toward the target[/u][/b]. If the golfer's right knee is pointed straight ahead or out to begin with, [b]he can bring it in with a separate action on the downswing[/b], of course, but he is making the knee do double work, and there is no sense in that." [/i][/size]


The bits that I've bolded highlights the importance of right leg and hip action, and although automated to a great degree the right side was not passive in transition (purely relying on the left hip and upper body to pull it through). Indeed this makes perfect sense when combined with Hogan's lower body drills which simulates his desired motion, like the elbows glued to the sides during half-swings.

Hogan's swing is very rotary and on a flat'ish plane, with legs and hips controlling the swing with very connected passive arms. Without the 'release' of the right side the right hip will stall and this pure body timing action is prevented........ We can view this ourselves with post-secret footage of Hogan where there is almost no right hip stall, with the right elbow and right hip almost moving together as one unit during the downswing and through impact.

Interestingly he did have a right hip stall pre-1946............. and there is no special grip change to alter that!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1339322597' post='5060866']
I had a quick scan through '5 Lessons' and dug up a very important reference that Hogan makes about the right knee. He maybe did not spell it out to people (like he said to Jody Vasquez) but he most certainly hints at the importance here:

[size=5][i]"The right knee should be broken a shade more in to the left, if anything, than the left knee is to the right. If the right knee is pointed in, then it's "in business" all the time. It helps brace the right leg on the backswing, and the right leg must be sturdily braced to prevent the golfer from swaying his body laterally to the right as he swings the club back. For another thing, [b]the right knee will then be in the correct position for the downswing when the [u]power of the right hip and leg is released toward the target[/u][/b]. If the golfer's right knee is pointed straight ahead or out to begin with, [b]he can bring it in with a separate action on the downswing[/b], of course, but he is making the knee do double work, and there is no sense in that." [/i][/size]

The bits that I've bolded highlights the importance of right leg and hip action, and although automated to a great degree the right side was not passive in transition (purely relying on the left hip and upper body to pull it through). Indeed this makes perfect sense when combined with Hogan's lower body drills which simulates his desired motion, like the elbows glued to the sides during half-swings.

Hogan's swing is very rotary and on a flat'ish plane, with legs and hips controlling the swing with very connected passive arms. Without the 'release' of the right side the right hip will stall and this pure body timing action is prevented........ We can view this ourselves with post-secret footage of Hogan where there is almost no right hip stall, with the right elbow and right hip almost moving together as one unit during the downswing and through impact.

Interestingly he did have a right hip stall pre-1946............. and there is no special grip change to alter that!
[/quote]

That tells me he did not actively run the right knee at the ball with independent knee action as stated by Vasquez, but it got run toward the ball by the driving right hip.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1339341401' post='5061494']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1339322597' post='5060866']
I had a quick scan through '5 Lessons' and dug up a very important reference that Hogan makes about the right knee. He maybe did not spell it out to people (like he said to Jody Vasquez) but he most certainly hints at the importance here:

[size=5][i]"The right knee should be broken a shade more in to the left, if anything, than the left knee is to the right. If the right knee is pointed in, then it's "in business" all the time. It helps brace the right leg on the backswing, and the right leg must be sturdily braced to prevent the golfer from swaying his body laterally to the right as he swings the club back. For another thing, [b]the right knee will then be in the correct position for the downswing when the [u]power of the right hip and leg is released toward the target[/u][/b]. If the golfer's right knee is pointed straight ahead or out to begin with, [b]he can bring it in with a separate action on the downswing[/b], of course, but he is making the knee do double work, and there is no sense in that." [/i][/size]

The bits that I've bolded highlights the importance of right leg and hip action, and although automated to a great degree the right side was not passive in transition (purely relying on the left hip and upper body to pull it through). Indeed this makes perfect sense when combined with Hogan's lower body drills which simulates his desired motion, like the elbows glued to the sides during half-swings.

Hogan's swing is very rotary and on a flat'ish plane, with legs and hips controlling the swing with very connected passive arms. Without the 'release' of the right side the right hip will stall and this pure body timing action is prevented........ We can view this ourselves with post-secret footage of Hogan where there is almost no right hip stall, with the right elbow and right hip almost moving together as one unit during the downswing and through impact.

Interestingly he did have a right hip stall pre-1946............. and there is no special grip change to alter that!
[/quote]

That tells me he did not actively run the right knee at the ball with independent knee action as stated by Vasquez, but it got run toward the ball by the driving right hip.
[/quote]

How did you deduce that?

The quote clearly says 'right hip and [b]leg[/b]'.

I wouldn't view the movement of the right hip in isolation, but starting from the ground up which includes the foot and inner muscles of the right leg, and the knee could be viewed as the tip of the arrow so to speak, which he preset.......... by independently swiveling the hip the power stored up in the backswing is expended incorrectly and the action is redundant (power, sequencing, consistency go kaput).

I've also found that use of the right leg in this manner seems to complement the action of the localized right hip muscles (the gluteus muscles etc) and enables smooth and powerful external rotation of the right hip in the correct way.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1339343961' post='5061642']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1339341401' post='5061494']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1339322597' post='5060866']
I had a quick scan through '5 Lessons' and dug up a very important reference that Hogan makes about the right knee. He maybe did not spell it out to people (like he said to Jody Vasquez) but he most certainly hints at the importance here:

[size=5][i]"The right knee should be broken a shade more in to the left, if anything, than the left knee is to the right. If the right knee is pointed in, then it's "in business" all the time. It helps brace the right leg on the backswing, and the right leg must be sturdily braced to prevent the golfer from swaying his body laterally to the right as he swings the club back. For another thing, [b]the right knee will then be in the correct position for the downswing when the [u]power of the right hip and leg is released toward the target[/u][/b]. If the golfer's right knee is pointed straight ahead or out to begin with, [b]he can bring it in with a separate action on the downswing[/b], of course, but he is making the knee do double work, and there is no sense in that." [/i][/size]

The bits that I've bolded highlights the importance of right leg and hip action, and although automated to a great degree the right side was not passive in transition (purely relying on the left hip and upper body to pull it through). Indeed this makes perfect sense when combined with Hogan's lower body drills which simulates his desired motion, like the elbows glued to the sides during half-swings.

Hogan's swing is very rotary and on a flat'ish plane, with legs and hips controlling the swing with very connected passive arms. Without the 'release' of the right side the right hip will stall and this pure body timing action is prevented........ We can view this ourselves with post-secret footage of Hogan where there is almost no right hip stall, with the right elbow and right hip almost moving together as one unit during the downswing and through impact.

Interestingly he did have a right hip stall pre-1946............. and there is no special grip change to alter that!
[/quote]

That tells me he did not actively run the right knee at the ball with independent knee action as stated by Vasquez, but it got run toward the ball by the driving right hip.
[/quote]

How did you deduce that?

The quote clearly says 'right hip and [b]leg[/b]'.

I wouldn't view the movement of the right hip in isolation, but starting from the ground up which includes the foot and inner muscles of the right leg, and the knee could be viewed as the tip of the arrow so to speak, which he preset.......... by independently swiveling the hip the power stored up in the backswing is expended incorrectly and the action is redundant (power, sequencing, consistency go kaput).

I've also found that use of the right leg in this manner seems to complement the action of the localized right hip muscles (the gluteus muscles etc) and enables smooth and powerful external rotation of the right hip in the correct manner.
[/quote]

If you have the right knee kicked in like that, how could the right knee not run toward the ball when driving the right hip?

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1339352461' post='5062094']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1339343961' post='5061642']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1339341401' post='5061494']
That tells me he did not actively run the right knee at the ball with independent knee action as stated by Vasquez, but it got run toward the ball by the driving right hip.
[/quote]

How did you deduce that?

The quote clearly says 'right hip and [b]leg[/b]'.

I wouldn't view the movement of the right hip in isolation, but starting from the ground up which includes the foot and inner muscles of the right leg, and the knee could be viewed as the tip of the arrow so to speak, which he preset.......... by independently swiveling the hip the power stored up in the backswing is expended incorrectly and the action is redundant (power, sequencing, consistency go kaput).

I've also found that use of the right leg in this manner seems to complement the action of the localized right hip muscles (the gluteus muscles etc) and enables smooth and powerful external rotation of the right hip in the correct manner.
[/quote]

If you have the right knee kicked in like that, how could the right knee not run toward the ball when driving the right hip?
[/quote]

I think we are going to get a bit chicken and egg here............ its very hard to powerfully 'drive' the right hip without assistance of other big muscles outside the hip area.

You could just externally rotate the right hip back, and yes the preset knee would turn a bit towards the ball, however the tension of the right leg would be released and after this initial movement there would be nothing to PUSH the right hip through, and then it STALLS!

A hip only action would also not achieve another very important function of this right side push upon the left leg and hip, as described in the JV Golf Digest article:

[i][color=#282828]'"What does this mean? On the downswing, Hogan's first movement was to push the knee inward to the left and toward the ball. This resulted in a [b]lateral shifting and opening of the left hip[/b]."[/color][/i]

[MizunoJoe]

What it means to me is that he doesn't understand that the right hip action gives all the lateral motion necessary and opens the left hip. The knees are facilitators, not actuators. Running the right knee at the ball just moves the right leg closer to the left but doesn't move it. In the Hogan quote above, he cautions against the knee doing "double work", which would be necessary if it wasn't kicked in at address. But it is kicked in at address, and so the knee motion follows from the hip action. Vasquez is misidentifying motion as action.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1339360078' post='5062518']
What it means to me is that he doesn't understand that the right hip action gives all the lateral motion necessary and opens the left hip. The knees are facilitators, not actuators. Running the right knee at the ball just moves the right leg closer to the left but doesn't move it. In the Hogan quote above, he cautions against the knee doing "double work", which would be necessary if it wasn't kicked in at address. But it is kicked in at address, and so the knee motion follows from the hip action. Vasquez is misidentifying motion as action.
[/quote]

Actually JV is communicating feeling and swing thoughts and trigger movements of Hogan.

Again its chicken and egg.......... the actions of the hip, knee and leg are not separate from one another. One leads to or helps initiate and facilitate the other...... Hogan was obsessed with automating his swing hence his precise set-up positions. Do you really think with an automated transition in mind he would do something as complicated as rotate the right hip, and once the left is clear (which wouldn't fully happen with an isolated rotation) then shift his focus to the right leg action? Convoluted, impractical and unnecessary. I will say again that without the pronounced right leg action the right hip stalls through impact which = no Hogan swing.

The 'double work' reference simply means that the ideal forward position of the right knee is preset, and by not doing this you would have to use extra movements to return back to this position before continuing on with the forward motion. The position is preset, not the action, and right hip rotation in itself is not the proper driver of this action.

Its been covered before but 'running the right knee' shouldn't be taken literally....... any pronounced knee-only movement would happen post impact which is a feeling/action to ensure a more aggressive clearance of the right side.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1339362108' post='5062652']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1339360078' post='5062518']
What it means to me is that he doesn't understand that the right hip action gives all the lateral motion necessary and opens the left hip. The knees are facilitators, not actuators. Running the right knee at the ball just moves the right leg closer to the left but doesn't move it. In the Hogan quote above, he cautions against the knee doing "double work", which would be necessary if it wasn't kicked in at address. But it is kicked in at address, and so the knee motion follows from the hip action. Vasquez is misidentifying motion as action.
[/quote]

Actually JV is communicating feeling and swing thoughts and trigger movements of Hogan.

Again its chicken and egg.......... the actions of the hip, knee and leg are not separate from one another. One leads to or helps initiate and facilitate the other...... Hogan was obsessed with automating his swing hence his precise set-up positions. Do you really think with an automated transition in mind he would do something as complicated as rotate the right hip, and once the left is clear (which wouldn't fully happen with an isolated rotation) then shift his focus to the right leg action? Convoluted, impractical and unnecessary. I will say again that without the pronounced right leg action the right hip stalls through impact which = no Hogan swing.

The 'double work' reference simply means that the ideal forward position of the right knee is preset, and by not doing this you would have to use extra movements to return back to this position before continuing on with the forward motion. The position is preset, not the action, and right hip rotation in itself is not the proper driver of this action.

Its been covered before but 'running the right knee' shouldn't be taken literally....... any pronounced knee-only movement would happen post impact which is a feeling/action to ensure a more aggressive clearance of the right side.
[/quote]

IMO, JV got it correct.

@MJ, don't you think it is unnecessary for Hogan to discuss the R hip to JV because Hogan has said numerous times that the 1st movement in transition/DS is the turning of the hips? Just turning the hips will make the R hip move forward. However, without making the R knee move forward as well, the whole dynamics will be entirely different...as stated by nicebutdim, just presetting the R knee inward, and then maintain the R leg angle no matter what, that knee will behave as JV describes it for as long as the hip action is correct...Hogan said he studied many reels/films of movies just to get this correct...the hip action is not as simple as it may seem...

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1339387544' post='5065020']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1339362108' post='5062652']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1339360078' post='5062518']
What it means to me is that he doesn't understand that the right hip action gives all the lateral motion necessary and opens the left hip. The knees are facilitators, not actuators. Running the right knee at the ball just moves the right leg closer to the left but doesn't move it. In the Hogan quote above, he cautions against the knee doing "double work", which would be necessary if it wasn't kicked in at address. But it is kicked in at address, and so the knee motion follows from the hip action. Vasquez is misidentifying motion as action.
[/quote]

Actually JV is communicating feeling and swing thoughts and trigger movements of Hogan.

Again its chicken and egg.......... the actions of the hip, knee and leg are not separate from one another. One leads to or helps initiate and facilitate the other...... Hogan was obsessed with automating his swing hence his precise set-up positions. Do you really think with an automated transition in mind he would do something as complicated as rotate the right hip, and once the left is clear (which wouldn't fully happen with an isolated rotation) then shift his focus to the right leg action? Convoluted, impractical and unnecessary. I will say again that without the pronounced right leg action the right hip stalls through impact which = no Hogan swing.

The 'double work' reference simply means that the ideal forward position of the right knee is preset, and by not doing this you would have to use extra movements to return back to this position before continuing on with the forward motion. The position is preset, not the action, and right hip rotation in itself is not the proper driver of this action.

Its been covered before but 'running the right knee' shouldn't be taken literally....... any pronounced knee-only movement would happen post impact which is a feeling/action to ensure a more aggressive clearance of the right side.
[/quote]

IMO, JV got it correct.

@MJ, don't you think it is unnecessary for Hogan to discuss the R hip to JV because Hogan has said numerous times that the 1st movement in transition/DS is the turning of the hips? Just turning the hips will make the R hip move forward. However, without making the R knee move forward as well, the whole dynamics will be entirely different...as stated by nicebutdim, just presetting the R knee inward, and then maintain the R leg angle no matter what, that knee will behave as JV describes it for as long as the hip action is correct...Hogan said he studied many reels/films of movies just to get this correct...the hip action is not as simple as it may seem...
[/quote]

Hi Vincenzo,

I not quite sure whether you're fully or partially agreeing with me or not?!

As you say its a slightly complicated area when analyzed in isolation, though perhaps not in the context of what Hogan was trying to achieve............ an automated rotary swing with little independent arm action.

For MJ another thing to consider is the action that initiates the transition and how it might complement the feeling that JV is describing............ something that is an automated reaction created by the right leg set-up and turning deeply into a very braced rear leg

The Backshift!
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipRFcrQ37a4&feature=plcp[/media]

One could almost say it starts the motion which the right leg continues.

[svsvincenzo]

@nice,

I think I agree with you both. I think BOTH must be done--the correct hip turn and the correct knee action. I would add also the correct foot action. And in order to do this foot action, the correct presetting of R foot at Setup.

I think the correct hip action is one where the L hip goes South-West and the R hip goes forward towards the target in an action parallel to the target line. However, this can be done, but still not Hogan IMO. To be Hogan, this hip-turn action must be done in such a way where there is enough lateral motion (the belt buckle gets in line with the ball in transition) AND the R knee moves or runs towards the target/ball. This is necessary to get that unique Hogan full frontal extension and R foot drag...and, of course, the accompanying consequences on his pivot, clubhead speed and clubface behavior...

For those who think this is OCD, ok, blame your ineptness and/or laziness on OCD...lol

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='svsvincenzo' timestamp='1339390062' post='5065178']
@nice,

I think I agree with you both. I think BOTH must be done--the correct hip turn and the correct knee action. I would add also the correct foot action. And in order to do this foot action, the correct presetting of R foot at Setup.

I think the correct hip action is one where the L hip goes South-West and the R hip goes forward towards the target in an action parallel to the target line. However, this can be done, but still not Hogan IMO. To be Hogan, this hip-turn action must be done in such a way where there is enough lateral motion (the belt buckle gets in line with the ball in transition) AND the R knee moves or runs towards the target/ball. This is necessary to get that unique Hogan full frontal extension and R foot drag...and, of course, the accompanying consequences on his pivot, clubhead speed and clubface behavior...

For those who think this is OCD, ok, blame your ineptness and/or laziness on OCD...lol
[/quote]

Actually I think we are in agreement here!

the right hip action is very important, and JD is talking about Hogan's swing thought/feel/action that he uses to automates it and clear the right side in a way that is quite unique to Hogan's rotary swing.............

after an automated backshift there was the 'running of the knee', as it was described, which facilitates the correct right hip action, powers the lateral shift and clearance of the left hip, and keeps the right side moving continuously throughout the forwards swing so there is unison between the right elbow and right hip.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C5_Dkim3p0&feature=plcp[/media]

It makes things so much simpler than thinking about all these independent moving parts.

[drewspin]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1339388977' post='5065126']
The Backshift!
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipRFcrQ37a4&feature=plcp[/media]

One could almost say it starts the motion which the right leg continues.
[/quote]

Thanks for posting this--- I forgot about this one... aside from the overly loud organ, it's good stuff.

The second swing sequence in in the video is a really great sequence to see the left arm and left shoulder dynamics through impact.

Sweet.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1339451225' post='5069618']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1339388977' post='5065126']
The Backshift!
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipRFcrQ37a4&feature=plcp[/media]

One could almost say it starts the motion which the right leg continues.
[/quote]

Thanks for posting this--- I forgot about this one... aside from the overly loud organ, it's good stuff.

The second swing sequence in in the video is a really great sequence to see the left arm and left shoulder dynamics through impact.

Sweet.
[/quote]

Yeah, great compilation in slow mo. Personally I like the 3rd sequence. Look at that hip action. Nice.

[TampaJim]

Decades before Jody Vasquez got that lesson from Ben Hogan, Tommy Armour was teaching the exact same thing. Since Armour was sort of the Butch Harmon of the Hogan era, it's hard to imagine that Hogan wasn't familiar with Armour's teachings. Here's some quotes from Armour:

[size=2][color=#000000]“[size=3]The theory of cause and effect between footwork and knee action is too confusing to worry about, and I’ve tried to figure out which came first, the hen or the egg, the footwork or the knee action, for a long time. Finally I found out that by thinking about the right knee, and getting that to move as it should, the right foot would take care of itself.[/size][/color][/size]
[size=3][color=#000000]Getting the right side into the shot is primarily a matter of footwork. The right knee is the signal. One of the most confusing (and utterly unnecessary) items of advice in golf instruction is to get the left side out of the way. That is a negative, weak way of trying to tell what should be done. The constructive command is to get the right side into the shot, whereupon the left side absolutely must get out of the way unless you’re Siamese twins. [/color]
[color=#000000]I focused my concentration into getting my right knee to move me into the hitting position. The right knee starts toward the ball at the same time that the hands start coming down. There seems to be a push from the ground up.[/color][/size]
[size=2][color=#000000][size=3]In simplifying footwork, I’ll give you one simple little tip that probably will greatly improve the hitting portion of your swing. The tip is to have the right knee come in fast at the right time. If that right knee comes in fast at the right time, you’ll hit the ball pretty well. The body, arms and hands will coordinate with the knee action more that you realize is possible.[/size] [/color][/size]
[color=#000000] At the start of the downswing the right knee pushes into the shot. Coming down, don’t think about sliding the left hip to get it out of the way, but get your entire right side into the shot in the same manner you’d throw a ball underhand.” [/color]

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='TampaJim' timestamp='1343692356' post='5380722']
Decades before Jody Vasquez got that lesson from Ben Hogan, Tommy Armour was teaching the exact same thing. Since Armour was sort of the Butch Harmon of the Hogan era, it's hard to imagine that Hogan wasn't familiar with Armour's teachings. Here's some quotes from Armour:

[size=2][color=#000000]“[size=3]The theory of cause and effect between footwork and knee action is too confusing to worry about, and I’ve tried to figure out which came first, the hen or the egg, the footwork or the knee action, for a long time. Finally I found out that by thinking about the right knee, and getting that to move as it should, the right foot would take care of itself.[/size][/color][/size]
[size=3][color=#000000]Getting the right side into the shot is primarily a matter of footwork. The right knee is the signal. One of the most confusing (and utterly unnecessary) items of advice in golf instruction is to get the left side out of the way. That is a negative, weak way of trying to tell what should be done. The constructive command is to get the right side into the shot, whereupon the left side absolutely must get out of the way unless you’re Siamese twins. [/color]
[color=#000000]I focused my concentration into getting my right knee to move me into the hitting position. The right knee starts toward the ball at the same time that the hands start coming down. There seems to be a push from the ground up.[/color][/size]
[size=2][color=#000000][size=3]In simplifying footwork, I’ll give you one simple little tip that probably will greatly improve the hitting portion of your swing. The tip is to have the right knee come in fast at the right time. If that right knee comes in fast at the right time, you’ll hit the ball pretty well. The body, arms and hands will coordinate with the knee action more that you realize is possible.[/size] [/color][/size]
[color=#000000] At the start of the downswing the right knee pushes into the shot. Coming down, don’t think about sliding the left hip to get it out of the way, but get your entire right side into the shot in the same manner you’d throw a ball underhand.” [/color]
[/quote]

Very interesting post........... thanks for finding it and sharing.

[drewspin]

[u][b]Huge [/b][/u]difference between "running his right knee at the ball" in the downswing, and prepositioning the right knee set inward of the right ankle to be "in business" so it can avoid double work.

[Pinsplitter59]

i don't have any knees ... anyhow
Lee Trevino said an important key for him was to "kill the knees" in the downswing.
wish i knew what he meant.

[coachg]

Tampa:

Great find on the Tommy Armour excerpt. The "Silver Scot" was one of the great ball strikers
of his era and an under the radar great golf swing coach.

[nicebutdim]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkkSlsZhyFA&feature=g-all-u"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkkSlsZhyFA&feature=g-all-u[/url]

[svsvincenzo]

IMHO, Hogan doesn't need to do that. If he turns his hips and consequently his shoulders the R elbow and hands will just go down in front of his R hip/thigh. His R shoulder won't jut out. It will go down. Snead, Brad and Nicklaus needs that move bec they use a higher L arm plane relative to their shoulder turn plane. JMHO.

[bhughesgolf]

What about a swing flatter than Hogan such as Doug Sanders?
I believe HG101 you seem to be caught up in upper body stuff....shoulders etc... I pointed this out in the video about how things loook different because of the straight rear leg or flexed rear leg and the visual of working down the right ankle from that point.
If Hogan worked the weight left without working down the right leg initially he would never have had the right knee and right foot action that is evident in his swing or kept as much torso rotation down and into the hit....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny1BEmAsvD8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn-hZSxLU24

[svsvincenzo]

I believe, as I've been saying, in initiating the DS with the hips. The turning of the hips in a rotary-lateral manner. Exactly as Higan said. Hogan didn't say squat first and then turn your hips. He said turn your hips, there must be enough lateral motion, in order to transfer the weight from the R to the L foot. With his R knee kicked in and lower leg bones pronated/turned CCW, with the weight/pressure on the inside R foot, merely turning the hips while the counterfall is already going on will make you achieve the Hogan R foot drag you're talking about. The L arm and R shoulder must be working down on that Hogan plane so that your hands, club and R shoulder won't jut out. I sincerely believe Hogan told us all. They're all right there.

[bhughesgolf]

But as we see and know .... turn the hips is the bugaboo of bad golfing the world over.
I believe he turned his hips.... I believe he came in with steep shoulders because of his torso rotation. I believe everything he said in his book he did and once you work out why he did or said all that then it is simple.... But it isnt a plain as day natural reaction.... which he also said by saying reverse every natural instinct
I also believe he had level turning torso post impact and the greatest pivot action I have seen, which glued all that book instruction talk together

What worked for him will not work for 99% of the golfing world so I believe it pointless for people to even attempt half of what he mentions.
Dynamics YES Visual Similarities NO

[svsvincenzo]

That's precisely why I feel the need for emphasis on more vertical shoulder turn. This is the only way to solve the problem of 99% of golfers that turn the hips and follow Hogan. He said turn those shoulders parallel to the hogan plane of glass.

Couple this with his educated hands, and it all fits in.

Post impact, sure it will turn level. It can't do anything but that due to his super fast pivot. Try turning your shoulders vertically for as long as possible and I'm sure eventually it will turn level.

[k001k47]

For those saying left side concentration is egregious, I belive "clearing the left side" is just a catalyst to fire the right. It's similar to a baseball batter's (also pitcher's) move of driving aggresively into the ground with the side that isn't loaded. But I think this has already been intimated in previous posts...

Geez... I should have read this before posting that dumb topic.

[JBOMB808]

Bumpity bump.

Bringing back what I believe is the 'key' for having a consistent miss. I've dabbled in numerous swing thoughts that band-aid certain issues that come up, but this one always seems to be the catalyst for decent striking. I had a range session yesterday that seemed all too effortless and was working on some half wedges that were always in the realm of 5ft of my target. Not trying to toot my horn, but after reviewing some Hogan footage I really see the focus Hogan puts on that knee. It's almost like clockwork especially at full-speed when he's addressing the ball that knee is getting settled into place like a statue.

I think that is the absolute missing link between the 'braced knee' and the rest of the swing is finding what resistance it takes to keep that knee bent throughout the BS and DS, and confidently 'accelerating' through the shot. A 'stalled' hit will be anything that releases the club prior to making contact with the ball.

Now adding to that, I believe most issues that result in poor contact come from trying to 'hit at' instead of swinging through. Lee Trevino said that you have to accelerate through even on a 3 foot putt, Knudson talks about 'swinging to the target'. I believe emphasis should be on that knee as #1. Finding what has to be resisted to maintain that #1 throughout the swing is #2. #3 is going to be to trust that your release is going to happen naturally (ala Slicefixer), but only through commitment of constant acceleration, and not immediate speed from the top of the swing(over the top).

Jody V speaks the truth.

I'm off my soapbox now, I promise I'll report back with some footage this weekend to compare and hopefully prove this theory. Thanks for reading!~