Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[rrkman]

[quote name='reflog74' post='1850524' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:09 AM'][quote name='rrkman' post='1850437' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:32 AM']I personally know nothing about the bettinardi split but I think that with cameron going to titleist, it was no longer a good fit. He needed inexpensive, mass produced OTR putters....and chose to do this elsewhere. Was it handled in the best way and was it the best choice for Cameron/Titleist? I would guess that is up to the people actually involved.[/quote]

Randy,

The split had nothing to do with Cameron contracting with Titleist. That happened in 1995. The split occurred at the end of 1997. Bettinardi milled all of Cameron's putters for Titleist for those 3 years: gun blues, oilcans, first generation TeI.

John

[/quote]

Thanks John. I guess I always thought that the Titleist partnership helped the split. From what I've read/heard Bettinardi's companies are top of the line mills....I just figured that Titleist (and/or Cameron) wanted a less expensive and faster process to turn OTR models out. Just makes sense to me in a mass-production world. I guess on a side note, did bettinardi mill all the mass produced mizuno OTR models?

So what exactly caused the split. Personal issues? Business decisions? I think someone posted something along the lines of 'a box of of putter heads were sent back to bettinardi as defective but the heads didn't actually come from bettinardi'. Sounds like titleist/cameron was looking for a new supplier....why? Price, quality, quantity, did titleist want to use their people, etc?

[Redman]

[quote name='CallawayOnly' post='1850406' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:18 AM']I still think the only way anyone can have "credibility" is to be transparent. Anyone un-willing to come clean after all that has been said, has little credibility in my book, no matter which side of the fence you are on.[/quote]

Why is this such a big deal to you? As Foregasim has said.....if he is JR then what difference is that going to make? Some are going to say well that supports his posts and others are going to say well he is disgruntled and discredits his posts. It really shouldn't matter. What if Scotty gets on here and and makes up some BS as to the COA system? Is that really going to change your views of what you think of it now?

Also, Biscuity.....there is nothing that can be said or done in a negative manner towards Scotty Cameron that you wouldn't have some kind of biased response to. I think it is very strange that you have 4 used OTR Camerons and you are seriously defending his honor like he is a brother and even much more so than any of the rest of his camp ever has.

I would love to see what is going on in the private threads on TCC now. I bet there are sorts of conversations between the mods and Biscuity about what a great job he is doing and that his tour putters will be there soon, haha!

[reflog74]

I believe Bettinardi started milling for Cameron at the end of 1992. That would include CGI (Classics and Scottsman) and Titleist. Lots of mass production in those lines. Cameron designed the 4 Mizuno models in 1992. I don't know where they were milled.

I don't know what caused the split.

John

BTW, the Classic line was started while Cameron was still under contract with Mizuno ('92-'93). There are some Classics that were stamped Mizuno for the Darrell survey. Langer won the 1993 Masters with one.

[rrkman]

[quote name='reflog74' post='1850602' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:37 AM']I believe Bettinardi started milling for Cameron at the end of 1992. That would include CGI (Classics and Scottsman) and Titleist. Lots of mass production in those lines. Cameron designed the 4 Mizuno models in 1992. I don't know where they were milled.

I don't know what caused the split.

John[/quote]


Sorry, I think I asked that wrong. I was wondering about the bettinardi mizuno models from the past few years.

Thanks.

[tpariff]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1850437' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:32 AM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850304' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:28 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1850044' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:23 AM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850038' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:03 AM']From the stories told here he has had ugly splits with virtually everyone he has done business with.[/quote]

Congratulations foregasim, mission accomplished.
[/quote]
Rather than attacking Foregasm you might want to say why my statement is untrue. It seems that every person that Scotty has worked with, from business partners to private website developers, has had a falling out. Nobody has provided any meaningful rebuttal to that statement - I wasn't aware it was actually in dispute here.
[/quote]

I have certainly seen some of the examples of the relationships that have gone bad. I don't have most of the facts behind what happened but there were certainly some splits that occurred.

But, you have to admit that he is a successful businessman and to do that you have to have some quality relationships. What about with AM&E. People on here have accused AM&E of stealing design ideas and passing them on to him, only doing certain types of designs for him but telling others that it can't be done, etc. Sounds to me like they must have a decent relationship. Also, he's worked with Titleist for over 10 years so there is another example....seems like it has been a win-win situation for both of them. What about the distributors? It seems like Rand and Butler have been associated with him for some time, right? I'm sure that there are others but based on just the little I know, I can find just as many 'successful' relationships as I can 'spilts'.

Listen, I'm not defending him but you can pretty easily find some 'bad' examples for everyone. It sounds to me like most of these were business decisions. Could they have been handled differently, probably....maybe better, maybe worse. I personally know nothing about the bettinardi split but I think that with cameron going to titleist, it was no longer a good fit. He needed inexpensive, mass produced OTR putters....and chose to do this elsewhere. Was it handled in the best way and was it the best choice for Cameron/Titleist? I would guess that is up to the people actually involved.

Same with the private web developer. Having people run a FAN site and also run a different site discussing the competitors makes no sense to me. I probably would have done something similar although hopefully I could have done it just different enough to keep some of these 'partnerships' intact. In business and in life, I don't like having enemies...it just makes things easier without them.

[b]Plus, I have one other question. I tried to ask this earlier and didn't see an answer. I still can't find the inconsistencies from cameron on the mini. The putter archive says that fewer than 5 were made before the merger...might be misleading but do we have facts that say this isn't true? My understanding is that 5 finished heads were made, right? When were they turned into putters, before or after the merger? Does anyone know this? Were they even all turned into putters? Is the head at Studio B included in those 5 or less than 5?[/b]
[/quote]

Randy,

That question might be best answered by Scotty Cameron himself. Send that question to him via Garage Talk and see how / if he responds. There's almost 40 pages of discussion here about it and we still don't have the answer. Maybe Scotty can explain it.

Kevin

[reflog74]

Sorry, I misunderstood your question. Yes, Bettinardi milled all of the Betti Mizuno models at his facility in Tinley Park, IL. Mass production is not a problem.

John

[add1]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1849938' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:12 AM'][quote name='xxio' post='1849857' date='Jul 28 2009, 09:13 PM']Biscuity is correct.[/quote]



[quote]Prototype can mean so many things nowadays. Callaway went with the Xproto in their irons. I think 2000-2500 total on those but of course the number will not increase unlike the 009. Prototype unless shown to be a limited number has now become a selling term. Maybe if we wish hard enough when the 009s hit 5,000-6,000 units Cameron will stop calling them prototypes. Technically since each customer orders his "own" putter so it is a "prototype" of the customer's request. So for Cameron protoype=custom stamped. Prototype just makes it sound more appealing for investors. In fact since it is a custom/one of a kind because of the stampings maybe Cameron should stamp 1/1 on every single 009 and charge an extra $200.[/quote]

Choose your marketing term: Prototype, Tour, Limited, Pro, Handmade, Custom etc etc etc.

Manufacturers use that stuff because suckers like us eat it up. Look at how many "Tour" items are in Stage1350's WITB listing

[quote]He creates his own words "GSS". He even trademarked it. You can only trademark things are that are unique or your own invention. German stainless steel is a fairly common metal and is used everyday. Nothing original about it, "GSS" on the other hand is worth an additional $2000 for the stamping alone. Trademark lawyers now charge higher fees nowadays for Titleist products. I wonder why?[/quote]

GSS, DASS, A.S.S Looks like everyone is copying Scotty's lead.

[quote]Biscuity,

How does Cameron track these 200,000 putters in a year?

Scotty is a very busy man. He has to attend the ICC, visit Tour stops, fit PGA Tour players, and fly to Japan to watch a presentation every now and then.

Are these 200,000 just OTRs? Does it include the tour putters (actual tour not just custom stamped Circle T) for the different tours? Does it include heads previously made but only get shafted last year (so it becomes a putter) then get stamped the year it was milled like "1996". Does that putter get removed from the 1996 production unit count and put in the 2008 count or does it stay in the 1996 tally?[/quote]

I'm sure Scotty is a very busy man. That's why he has a staff of 16 people at the Putter Studio to help him. They can track the quantity fairly easily using the invoices from the machine shops that mill his putters. Did you notice in the Autoweek article that he says the production putters are not made in the studio... SHOCKING! I thought you guys said he tried to keep that a big secret.

I took the 200,000 putter/year figure as a cumulative total of all types of his putters produced during the year. Complete putters, not partially finished heads without shafts.

[quote]I notice a few OTRs with custom jobs in the COA system surely Cameron cannot be expected to authenticate all these putters and not make a single mistake. Has Cameron ever sent back a putter saying "sorry, I don't remember this one?"[/quote]

Surely there are mistakes, especially from the early days. I still think the COA system is a great asset for people who collect Cameron equipment. If I had a $3000 Cameron putter I would definitely spend $65 to get a COA, photo documentation on the web etc. Seems like a bargain to me. I'm not going to register any of my OTR putters though, they're not worth it.
[/quote]
Hang on a minute the last paragraph.If I had a $3000 Cameron I would spend $65 for a COA,personally if I had said putter I would want it DNA tested for Scottys sweat,is this for real. Its value would be dependant on a COA so the $65 is a must.Now you have said on more than one occasion,that you are just in search of knowledge about any subject you are interested in at the time,but for a VERY SMALL COLLECTOR/FAN you show more support for Mr Cameron than I do to my wife.You show distain for nearly every other putter maker and question there lack of originallity.The post was started about a Cameron product not any other company.Can we keep the discussion about the mini or related.Personal attacks are easy and not helpful to the life this thread.I want to learn more from both sides to make an honest opinion,at the moment I view some of SC practices as disturbing.and have found foregasims posts fair.To just dismiss anything he posts or say show us proof can be said for both sides.

[Bogie Hokie]

[quote name='Redman' post='1850560' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:23 AM'][quote name='CallawayOnly' post='1850406' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:18 AM']I still think the only way anyone can have "credibility" is to be transparent. Anyone un-willing to come clean after all that has been said, has little credibility in my book, no matter which side of the fence you are on.[/quote]

Why is this such a big deal to you? As Foregasim has said.....if he is JR then what difference is that going to make? Some are going to say well that supports his posts and others are going to say well he is disgruntled and discredits his posts. It really shouldn't matter. What if Scotty gets on here and and makes up some BS as to the COA system? Is that really going to change your views of what you think of it now?

Also, Biscuity.....there is nothing that can be said or done in a negative manner towards Scotty Cameron that you wouldn't have some kind of biased response to. I think it is very strange that you have 4 used OTR Camerons and you are seriously defending his honor like he is a brother and even much more so than any of the rest of his camp ever has.

I would love to see what is going on in the private threads on TCC now. [b]I bet there are sorts of conversations between the mods and Biscuity about what a great job he is doing and that his tour putters will be there soon, haha![/b]
[/quote]

That's what I have been thinking reading all of his posts. It's hard for me to believe that he believes everything that he is writing if he really has nothing to gain from it.
He must think that he may be rewarded for what he's been posting.

[rrkman]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1850648' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:52 AM']Randy,

That question might be best answered by Scotty Cameron himself. Send that question to him via Garage Talk and see how / if he responds. There's almost 40 pages of discussion here about it and we still don't have the answer. Maybe Scotty can explain it.

Kevin[/quote]

Thanks Kevin....I might try that although it seems like we all have the same answer already.

I guess I'm more confused as to why these inconsistencies keep getting brought up....because I just don't seem to understand what they are. There is one that is stamped 1/5. The pro-cameron side of the argument says 5. The other side says 5. SC.com says that fewer than 5 mini putters were made before the merger with Titleist. Seems like they could easily all be right and none of them really contradict the other. I mean, it never says anywhere that bettinardi doesn't have one of the 5 finished heads. Pictures clearly show that he does. If this is the 'missing' fifth then why the argument? If it is, I have no idea why it just isn't added to the 'cameron' list....maybe something to do with the 'settlement'....maybe they aren't allowed to acknowledge each other at all - makes no sense to me but I wasn't part of the split and have no idea why we just can't add the bettinardi one to the list and agree that 5 currently are known to exist. End of story, right? Plus, the only person that truly knows how many milled heads were made is bettinardi. Cameron could have asked for whatever amount to be made but it comes down to bettinardi and how many he made and/or destroyed.....and I guess if he says that he gave cameron more than 4 (not including the one he has - in that case he gave them 5 and cameron gave one back to him after it was 'finished'), cameron needs to answer to that. So end of story. Everyone thinks that 5 exist and bettinardi has the 5th finished head.....what is there to argue?

[quote name='reflog74' post='1850653' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:54 AM']Sorry, I misunderstood your question. Yes, Bettinardi milled all of the Betti Mizuno models at his facility in Tinley Park, IL. Mass production is not a problem.

John[/quote]

Thanks John. I was going to ask if he milled them personally - as a joke/sarcasm but I was afraid that some might turn it into more than that. Thanks again.

[tangojay]

I still want to know as to why one putter is stamped 1 of 5 but others are blank, also, if I offer someone 20K for a PING Scottsdale, does that make it a 20K putter? any item is only worth what some one pays at the time of purchase.

[drewspin]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1849938' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:12 AM'][quote]He creates his own words "GSS". He even trademarked it. You can only trademark things are that are unique or your own invention. German stainless steel is a fairly common metal and is used everyday. Nothing original about it, "GSS" on the other hand is worth an additional $2000 for the stamping alone. Trademark lawyers now charge higher fees nowadays for Titleist products. I wonder why?[/quote]

GSS, DASS, A.S.S Looks like everyone is copying Scotty's lead.

[/quote]

Ha! Good one.

In reality, I coined the term A.S.S. (acronym for American Stainless Steel) back when I was involved with selling Byron putters. It was really meant as a kind of joke - a play on words. The secondary meaning was to parody the Cameron "GSS" mystique that adds thousands to the cost of a putter. Of course, A.S.S. is not a trademarked term.

In fact, the manufacturing and input costs are very nearly identical to make a putter out of American 303 stainless steel or German stainless steel. The cost of 303 stainless steel made in Germany is usually only very marginally more expensive (due to transport) than the cost of 303 stainless steel made in the USA, and of course you have to deal with the international shipping, etc.. However, the only thing that can explain the astronomical price differential at retail with the GSS putters is the tightly controlled "scarcity premium" and the "Tiger factor".

By the way, German-made stainless steel makes a very nice putter.

[scottym]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1850380' date='Jul 29 2009, 07:09 AM']People should base their opinions on what we post on the content of our posts not on who they believe the posters identity is in the real world.[/quote]

Then why did it matter if I was Bill Vogeney, or Biscuit was Rand???
Why does it matter if I have one putter or 100?

The answer is because:

Nobody is asking for a street address, they just want to know whether the poster is biased and whether his opinion is based on first hand experience or just conjecture.

I've been transparent on who I am (also who I am not) and what's in my collection.


"Maybe I'm JR, Maybe I'm not.."
Well I've seen a lot of your posts that state as [b]fact[/b] what I know is [b]false.
[/b]
I'm trying to understand if you are speaking from personal experience, or just winging it?

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='scottym' post='1850863' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:30 AM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1850380' date='Jul 29 2009, 07:09 AM']People should base their opinions on what we post on the content of our posts not on who they believe the posters identity is in the real world.[/quote]

Then why did it matter if I was Bill Vogeney, or Biscuit was Rand???
Why does it matter if I have one putter or 100?

The answer is because:

Nobody is asking for a street address, they just want to know whether the poster is biased and whether his opinion is based on first hand experience or just conjecture.

I've been transparent on who I am (also who I am not) and what's in my collection.


"Maybe I'm JR, Maybe I'm not.."
Well I've seen a lot of your posts that state as [b]fact[/b] what I know is [b]false.
[/b]
I'm trying to understand if you are speaking from personal experience, or just winging it?
[/quote]

Personally I could care less who a person is or not. Many people have hidden behind their screen identities and are/act differently in person. I am more concerned with the content of the post rather than who a person really is.

That said, if you are indeed Bill, "Hi Bill!"

[rrkman]

[quote name='tangojay' post='1850794' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:54 PM']I still want to know as to why one putter is stamped 1 of 5 but others are blank, also, if I offer someone 20K for a PING Scottsdale, does that make it a 20K putter? any item is only worth what some one pays at the time of purchase.[/quote]


I don't want this to sound like a smart @$$ answer so please don't take it that way.

Because there are 5 of them, right? I don't think that it matters if the others are stamped or not. The only thing that does matter is if there are more than 5....and from what I've seen and read, there seems to be 5. So this putter is a one of five.

I realize value is a big part of this argument, I mean discussion. In your example, that putter is worth (or valued at) $20K to you and if you find someone to sell it to you they also felt that the value did not excede $20K. Someone else might value it differently....some might not value it any higher than the original retail price. The only thing that has a 'concrete' value is legal tender....and even that is subject to inflation. Personally, I value this empty gatorade bottle I have sitting here at $500. Anyone interested in buying it? Probably not. Does it matter what I value it at...no, it only matters what the market values it at....the rest is just smoke and marketing. If I want that putter and the seller says it is worth $40K and I think it is worth $20K, I doubt we'll see a transaction. If they sell it to me for $20K then they can say whatever they want about it, but in the end....$20K was an acceptable value to the involved parties. Does that mean that it is worth $20K to the next buyer....no guarantees on that. It could be worth half that or twice that. This is an example of a free market. The price is only controlled by the buyer and seller and they are free to set that at whatever they want.

[Redman]

[quote name='scottym' post='1850863' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:30 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1850380' date='Jul 29 2009, 07:09 AM']People should base their opinions on what we post on the content of our posts not on who they believe the posters identity is in the real world.[/quote]

Then why did it matter if I was Bill Vogeney, or Biscuit was Rand???
Why does it matter if I have one putter or 100?

The answer is because:

Nobody is asking for a street address, they just want to know whether the poster is biased and whether his opinion is based on first hand experience or just conjecture.

I've been transparent on who I am (also who I am not) and what's in my collection.


"Maybe I'm JR, Maybe I'm not.."
Well I've seen a lot of your posts that state as [b]fact[/b] what I know is [b]false.
[/b]
I'm trying to understand if you are speaking from personal experience, or just winging it?
[/quote]

So what is your response if he is JR? He obviously is a person with a ton of personal experience but the very first thing you are going to do is say, "Oh, its JR, now this all makes sense. He is biased and a Cameron hater now". And maybe he is....but it appears that he go that way for very good reasons.

Please explain how you know what he is posting as facts as false? Seems to me like you have been winging it since you joined along with some attacking.

[Huntingchris0000]

I don't have a dog in this fight but just have to wonder what biscuit and scotty m are getting out of this? I would not come on the internet and defend someone for the life of me, what is the benefit?

[rrkman]

[quote name='Huntingchris0000' post='1850961' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:05 PM']I don't have a dog in this fight but just have to wonder what biscuit and scotty m are getting out of this? I would not come on the internet and defend someone for the life of me, what is the benefit?[/quote]

Just curious....why is defending someone so much worse than attacking someone? I guess it depends more on why you feel they are doing it?

[add1]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1851012' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:23 PM'][quote name='Huntingchris0000' post='1850961' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:05 PM']I don't have a dog in this fight but just have to wonder what biscuit and scotty m are getting out of this? I would not come on the internet and defend someone for the life of me, what is the benefit?[/quote]

Just curious....why is defending someone so much worse than attacking someone? I guess it depends more on why you feel they are doing it?
[/quote]
I dont think it's worse,but it is easier to be negative.On the other hand to defend someone I think you need a greater knowledge of the subject.To focus on one negative point is not as hard as defending multiple strands.To be able to explain to the masses so they can fully grasp the info takes some doing.The argument of show me proof just doesn't cut it sorry.

[HOHO]

[b]Here are 3 things I KNOW ... AND 1 QUESTION ....[/b]

1. foregasm's fingers must be tired (whoever he is)
2. scottym [b]"IS"[/b] Mike from B.C.
3. The world would be a pretty awesome place if the worst atrocities to mankind are SC's inconsistencies !

Q: Would you rather drown in KOOLAID or HATERAID ?


Dan

[psd]

What I continue to struggle with is what some of you describe as "disturbing" or unethical business practices.

We're talking about running a major business, with trademarks, patents and other IP that needs to be vigorously protected.

We seem to be focusing on the exceptions and not the rule. To wit:

- Scotty had a falling out with Bob Bettinardi. No one has been able to explain why. But a lot of people are taking it personally. Scotty has been depicted as arrogant and Bob as a gentleman. Still doesn't get at the crux of the biscuit (wanted to get a Zappa reference into GolfWRX)
- Scotty has a COA program that is not 100% fool-proof. Sure it may have some shortcomings. But is the program rampant with fraud and deception? No facts to prove it, but who here doesn't believe that at least 99% of the COAs released are accurate? That would allow for well over 100 "mistakes".
- the CC.com inner circle takes care of its most ardent admirerers. And? Is this not the norm in many cases?
- Scotty preys on collector's need for piece of mind and is exploiting them. His option is to do nothing. Which would collectors prefer?
- Scotty had a falling out with a certain producer of exotic grips. Once again, what were the circumstances?
- Scotty doesn't want a website that features competitor's products in any way. Perfectly sound business rationale.

My point is that it should be no surprise that the business world is a great big place filled with pitfalls as well as opportunities. We all know that but seemingly try to seek this idyllic place free from human foibles.

OK, now when do I get that 33/360 Damascus stamped 025?

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='HOHO' post='1851178' date='Jul 29 2009, 01:32 PM'][b]Here are 3 things I KNOW ... AND 1 QUESTION ....[/b]

1. foregasm's fingers must be tired (whoever he is)
2. scottym [b]"IS"[/b] Mike from B.C.
3. The world would be a pretty awesome place if the worst atrocities to mankind are SC's inconsistencies !

Q: Would you rather drown in KOOLAID or HATERAID ?


Dan[/quote]

Hi Dan,

How are things in the land of lefty? That is still a foreign concept for some of us.

Best regards,

Sam

[HOHO]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1851259' date='Jul 29 2009, 04:06 PM']Hi Dan,

How are things in the land of lefty? That is still a foreign concept for some of us.

Best regards,

Sam[/quote]

Hey Sam ,

$h!t's good in Lefty land ... Thanks for asking !

Dan

[rrkman]

[quote name='HOHO' post='1851178' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:32 PM'][b]Here are 3 things I KNOW ... AND 1 QUESTION ....[/b]

1. foregasm's fingers must be tired (whoever he is)
2. scottym [b]"IS"[/b] Mike from B.C.
3. The world would be a pretty awesome place if the worst atrocities to mankind are SC's inconsistencies !

Q: Would you rather drown in KOOLAID or HATERAID ?


Dan[/quote]

I think Dan brings up a good point and it is something that I've tried to bring up before. I would much rather hear what some of the other putter makers have to offer and how great they are vs. the bad stuff about cameron. When a bettinardi guy (as an example) starts bashing cameron, it pushes me away from bettinardi as much as what he is saying pushes me away from cameron....personally, that person telling me great things about bettinardi will certainly do more than the negative comments about cameron. The stories, the facts, the opinions....are all great and I like to read them. But, the bashing just comes across like there is some hidden agenda....especially when it is thrown into a simple cameron topic (not one like this). Digging up dirt to I guess gain support for the other companies seems like sour grapes to me....and I think that it would more productive to find a way to help get the word out about your preferred brand than spend all this time trying to bring down a different one. JMO.

So, I vote koolaid. Just seems like a happier way to go.

[HOHO]

If I held most manufacturers of MOST PRODUCTS IN THE WORLD ,
to the same standards that some are trying to hold Scotty to ...
I would OWN NOTHING (including clothes , running shoes , cars ... and on and on and on )

Dan

[stage1350]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1851363' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:45 PM'][quote name='HOHO' post='1851178' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:32 PM'][b]Here are 3 things I KNOW ... AND 1 QUESTION ....[/b]

1. foregasm's fingers must be tired (whoever he is)
2. scottym [b]"IS"[/b] Mike from B.C.
3. The world would be a pretty awesome place if the worst atrocities to mankind are SC's inconsistencies !

Q: Would you rather drown in KOOLAID or HATERAID ?


Dan[/quote]

I think Dan brings up a good point and it is something that I've tried to bring up before. I would much rather hear what some of the other putter makers have to offer and how great they are vs. the bad stuff about cameron. When a bettinardi guy (as an example) starts bashing cameron, it pushes me away from bettinardi as much as what he is saying pushes me away from cameron....personally, that person telling me great things about bettinardi will certainly do more than the negative comments about cameron. The stories, the facts, the opinions....are all great and I like to read them. But, the bashing just comes across like there is some hidden agenda....especially when it is thrown into a simple cameron topic (not one like this). Digging up dirt to I guess gain support for the other companies seems like sour grapes to me....and I think that it would more productive to find a way to help get the word out about your preferred brand than spend all this time trying to bring down a different one. JMO.

So, I vote koolaid. Just seems like a happier way to go.
[/quote]

You have to decide what is criticism and what is bashing. I no longer own any DASS Bettinardi putters. I found that I prefer the way I roll a carbon putter over stainless. Does that mean that DASS sucks? Absolutely not. But I'm not saying something positive, so does that make me a DASS hater?

Anytime you're going to make a blanket statement and then attribute it to "hating" you are simply showing your inability to comprehend the substance of the post. Yes, some posts are hating. But just because you have a legitimate reason for preferring one brand over another, or have a personal problem that makes brand X's putters not work for you doesn't necessarily make you a brand X hater.

For many people, how a company operates makes a difference in whether they choose to patronize that brand. If you have individuals that choose not to give their dollars to Cameron/Titleist due to their business practices, is that any more or less justifiable than the people that are brand loyal to Callaway because of their continued stories of outstanding customer service? It cuts both ways.

But in only one direction do those people get labeled as haters.

[dbren1]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1849785' date='Jul 28 2009, 10:31 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1849453' date='Jul 28 2009, 06:03 PM']Along those same lines, with 2,500 to 3,000 009's produced so far, why do all the COA's include "Prototype" in the model name. In the old days the Cameron Prototypes and Xperimental Prototypes were limited in numbers to 100 or 200. You would think after a small number had been made they no longer would be considered a Prototype. It would have been much better and more accurate to limit the use of the term Tour to putters that were made specifically for a tour player and to have limited the first 100 to 200 009's produced to being called Prototypes. After that the rest should have just been called 009's or Newport 009's. I would be embarrassed to tell someone that I had a "prototype" knowing that there were thousands and thousands of "prototypes" made over a 4 or 5 year period, not to mention that few of them were ever made with the knowledge that they were going to go to any type of tour player.[/quote]

With his annual production at [url="http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080327/FREE/851820987"]200,000[/url] putters he probably considers fifty or so 009 putters per month very limited production. Fifty putters a month isn't a lot when you are supporting pro golfers on several different tours around the world like the PGA, LPGA, Champions, Nationwide, Euro, Asian, Australian tours. They would probably lose their "prototype" status if they ever went into mass production.
[/quote]

50 a month is 2600 a year, there are less touring professionals than that on all of those tours combined, the majority don't play Camerons so those that do must change out putters very quickly to maintain that production level so 50 a month is a lot if you're not selling them.

Agreed, if any model would lose 'prototype' status and cache/inferred value once it went into production. Just look at the TM R510DF, they were selling at $2K+ at their peak. Once the R510TP was launched their value dropped dramatically.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1851416' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:11 PM'][quote name='HOHO' post='1851381' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:55 PM']If I held most manufacturers of MOST PRODUCTS IN THE WORLD ,
to the same standards that some are trying to hold Scotty to ...
I would OWN NOTHING (including clothes , running shoes , cars ... and on and on and on )

Dan[/quote]

It's good to see that you and Biscuits use the same method of justification.

This guy's a piece of sh!t. But because his competitor may be a piece of sh!t too, I don't feel bad about buying it.

So what do you do when you have an outstanding example of a putter maker like Truett Mills? You have the option to buy from someone held in the highest regard, but still buy from the POS guy?
[/quote]


We have to make decisions based on our own code. I am sure that some people choose based on ethics and integrity. I am also sure that some people truly believe that the person they believe in is a person of ethics and integrity (whom ever that is). Some people may not have a clue and only want to buy a putter. Some people don't care.

I know what I believe and try to follow this code when I purchase something, regardless what that item is. That said, I cannot hold my standards to someone else. Nobody can. One thing that cannot be forced onto people, or legislated, is morality. At the end of the day I want to be happy with who I look in the mirror and see. If who I see is a person I can be pleased with then I have lived a good day.

[rrkman]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1851385' date='Jul 29 2009, 04:56 PM']You have to decide what is criticism and what is bashing. I no longer own any DASS Bettinardi putters. I found that I prefer the way I roll a carbon putter over stainless. Does that mean that DASS sucks? Absolutely not. But I'm not saying something positive, so does that make me a DASS hater?

Anytime you're going to make a blanket statement and then attribute it to "hating" you are simply showing your inability to comprehend the substance of the post. Yes, some posts are hating. But just because you have a legitimate reason for preferring one brand over another, or have a personal problem that makes brand X's putters not work for you doesn't necessarily make you a brand X hater.[/quote]

I agree. I'm not talking about well thought out constructive criticism and opinions.....THAT ARE ON TOPIC. I'm talking about the drive-by posts like 'xerox' or 'overrated' or 'not worth it', etc. Have you ever seen these for other manufacturers? I haven't more than once or twice. And when it comes to copying, please don't use the 'well, the other copiers give credit to the original designs'. So what, they're still copying them.

There have been a lot of cameron items that I don't like and I've said it. When the kombi came out, I said that it wasn't the style for me which is true. I didn't post 'nice craz-e' or something along those lines. Is that really constructive? I call it hate/bashing. There is certainly some friendly sarcasm all over the place and if we could keep it at that, fine..... but when someone feels the need to constantly do it to stir up trouble, that is not constuctive criticism or an honest opinion. Same goes for the other side.

But I do have a question for you on the DASS.....do you go to the majority of topics that have even the slightest to do with bettinardi or DASS and make it known that you don't like DASS, it is a marketing ploy, and everyone should use carbon? Some people feel the need to do that about Cameron - that is hate.

I also agree that many people use the hater accusation way too often....but for some, it isn't used enough.

[quote]For many people, how a company operates makes a difference in whether they choose to patronize that brand. If you have individuals that choose not to give their dollars to Cameron/Titleist due to their business practices, is that any more or less justifiable than the people that are brand loyal to Callaway because of their continued stories of outstanding customer service? It cuts both ways.

But in only one direction do those people get labeled as haters.[/quote]

I applaud people that don't give their money to companies because of their business practices. BUT, if you're going to do it, you can't pick and choose what companies you hold to this standard. If you won't buy from Cameron or Titleist because of poor business practice then you better not buy a pair of tennis shoes made in the sweatshops in the far east....or from the retailer that goes into small markets and demands that the suppliers stop selling merchandise through the local mom and pop shops or they will remove the items for all their stores....hopefully you get the point or you could tell me some of your favorite brands and I'll see what kind of dirt I can dig up on them. Do you buy your produce from local farmers or do you support the large grocery stores? Which do you think is more ethical?

[Zach Heusser]

Please take the back and forth banter to pm guys... If you continue you are wasting your time because your posts will be deleted. Lets stay on track here guys!!

[hodges]

[quote name='jick' post='1843625' date='Jul 26 2009, 02:34 AM']When Cameron gives over-the-top ego-centric statements such as him improving on Karsten and Mills, or that he is paving the way to , or that his stainless steel putters are made from recycled forks and knives, or that he feels the jealousy of many, or that he is on the verge of a discovery that will alter the future of putting itself --- then those can be attributed to Cameron and reflect on his person.[/quote]

Jick I get the feeling you don't think that Cameron's versions of the original Karsten and Mills models are improvements.
Has anybody improved these designs in your mind?

Improvement to an original design can be measured one way by if it becomes a commerical success. Does it sell more than the original.

If this case I think most of Camerons versions have out sold the originals so they could be called an improvement.

Now if your only talking about how they look compared to the original, well that is to subjective to come to any kind of agreement.

I believe it was TP Mills that was one of the first to mill putterheads. The Mills company enjoy their best years sales wise though during the spalding era when the TP Mills putters were cast. Jay Green has helped David get the Mills company back to their roots of milling putters. He has brought the plumbers neck to the Mills company. They are enjoying a great resurgence. It is nearly the same thing that Nick has done for Bettinardi. They have brought their backgrounds from the Cameron world and are using their experiences to help the companies they represent.


While Scotty didn't invent milling putterheads it was his putters that were the first commercially successful milled models. Cameron milled putters have changed the marketplace. They have opened the door to many other startup companies and improved the market for some of the established puttermakers. There may never have been a milled putter market as we know it if someone didn't succeed. The milled putter market moved mainstream with Titleist signing Cameron to a contract and providing the funding to create a whole new market category. Maybe a few of the new puttermakers do owe him a debt of gratitude for paving the way to where we are today.
just some thoughts