Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[biscuity]

[quote name='Redman' post='1852322' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:25 PM']See I just don't understand your rebuttal here. Once again someone (RD in this case) has supplied very good information to go along with Foregasim's post and your defense has no logic behind it or any ground to stand on at all.[/quote]

No logic? OK, here goes:

You guys say Scotty is a powerful businessman who throws his weight around, strong arms vendors, forces people to choose between friendship and bribery etc etc.

If that's the case then I don't believe it when you say that he didn't have the power to call his buddy (Doug) and tell him to remove the thread.

Scotty is a powerful guy and I don't doubt he's been forceful to get to where he is today. But when I hear stories like the one about Rick Cooper or the TP Mills funeral donation I want to hear both sides before I pass judgement on a person. When a few minutes of research shows that the stories aren't as bad as they're made out to be I start questioning the motives of the people telling the stories.

[biscuity]

[quote name='Redman' post='1852369' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:58 PM']+1.....I would have to say that Putter Talk, while having ALL putter makers on it, has been a win for all. The consumer gets to look at all models and compare what they like and don't like and report that back to the companies so they can improve their product and meet the demands of the consumer. What I have seen, myself included, is that members on Putter Talk are putter lovers and tend to own putters from each maker.[/quote]

None of the other manufacturers had forums dedicated to their putters, so obviously it's a good thing for them. And it's good for Doug because he can turn the forum into a profit source, which it doesn't sound like he was able to do at TCC. Everybody's happy except for a handful of ex-Cameron insiders who can no longer get their "1 of 10" putter covers and COA's for their unfinished blocks of steel.

[funkyfedora]

[quote name='hodges' post='1852145' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:50 PM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850304' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:28 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1850044' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:23 AM'][quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1850038' date='Jul 29 2009, 12:03 AM']From the stories told here he has had ugly splits with virtually everyone he has done business with.[/quote]

Congratulations foregasim, mission accomplished.
[/quote]
Rather than attacking Foregasm you might want to say why my statement is untrue. It seems that every person that Scotty has worked with, from business partners to private website developers, has had a falling out. Nobody has provided any meaningful rebuttal to that statement - I wasn't aware it was actually in dispute here.
[/quote]
It wasn't Scotty that approached Doug to start a website for his fans. Doug started it on his own, people introduced Doug to Scotty, the relationship flourished until Doug decided to start another website to promote Scotty's competitors.
[/quote]

Sorry to throw my name into the hat and join in the conversation but last time I checked. There is a cameron section on PT... There have been heated discussions like this on PT as well. Like this one.. They were not deleted. I take that back. IIRC 1 was deleted because both sides regretted saying things... Yes. Threads get locked because personal attacks are a big thing in this war of cameron vs. the world...

To an even earlier post about cameron improving on the likes of Karsten and T.P. I laugh at you. You want a fact to support my laughter?? The gold putter vault at Ping. I would love to see a comparative list of number of putters(and the gold wedges don't count.) in the vault compared to the win list of cameron. Yes he is a marketing genius but I highly doubt that his putters will surpass ping in the winning dept...

[varsityhacker]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852316' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:22 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1852309' date='Jul 29 2009, 10:17 PM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1852297' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:10 PM']The problem is that Doug and the moderators were 100% committed to Cameron at TCC. It did not matter that PT was created because that site had little, if anything, to do with TCC. Yes, there was discussion for having a Cameron board at PT so they did but it was recommended to discuss Cameron putters at TCC because that was where the best dialog could be found. That was the intent. Regarding the people that were cut off, it was the moderators that chose the end result, not Cameron. Cameron drew the line in the sand and the moderators chose to cross it. Yes, they could have turned their backs on Doug and kept their positions with Cameron but those who crossed did so because of valuing a friendship more than bribery.[/quote]


Words like "bribery" are what get topics like this heated up to the point where you have to say "Such a pity how this issue evolved the way it did because it never had to be this way."


The moderators had a choice: Cameron putters or "Other" putters.
[/quote]

My use of "Such a pity ..." pertains to what happened to TCC a couple years back. It has nothing to do with this thread.


Well, what would you call it when Cameron lays down an edict that if a person remained a moderator at TCC with Doug running it they would not have access to the Studio and Cameron and would not even be able to buy an oil cloth? What is that? In my book it is either a threat or a bribe or both.

[b]Ok, many people made the choice and no longer own a Cameron putter. I know I am one of them, not because I did not like my Camerons, but because I abhor the business scruples of someone I cannot respect[/b]. If I am wrong regarding this whole situation I will be the first to apologize. So if I am wrong then show me that I am with empirical facts, not contrived theories or hypotheticals or smears. Keep in mind I sold one of my most favorite putters that I ever owned, one that I truly loved (AC VII), because of my conviction. At the end of the day I have to be true to myself and I believe that I have done so.
[/quote]

+1 I have sold all of my Scotty's not because they were bad putters or low quality they weren't. Nope I sold them because of the man behind the name. Does that make me a hater? If you like SC great enjoy his putters, but don't fool yourself in thinking he is a noble person one with high morals etc.

[biscuity]

[quote name='funkyfedora' post='1852474' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:52 PM']To an even earlier post about cameron improving on the likes of Karsten and T.P. I laugh at you. You want a fact to support my laughter?? The gold putter vault at Ping. I would love to see a comparative list of number of putters(and the gold wedges don't count.) in the vault compared to the win list of cameron. Yes he is a marketing genius but I highly doubt that his putters will surpass ping in the winning dept...[/quote]

So then I take it you must really laugh at guys like Bettinardi who struggle to win 1 or 2 tournaments a year?

Is it OK for you to make a comparison to Ping in the thread but it's not OK for me to compare Bettinardi?

You guys would be up in arms if someone said Cameron putters are better than TP Mills because they've won more tournaments.

That's the hypocrisy that I don't understand.

Additionally, the Ping Anser that won most of those tournaments rarely wins these days. Why? Because there are "improved" versions that the Pros would rather play than the original.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852408' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:20 PM'][quote name='Redman' post='1852369' date='Jul 29 2009, 09:58 PM']+1.....I would have to say that Putter Talk, while having ALL putter makers on it, has been a win for all. The consumer gets to look at all models and compare what they like and don't like and report that back to the companies so they can improve their product and meet the demands of the consumer. What I have seen, myself included, is that members on Putter Talk are putter lovers and tend to own putters from each maker.[/quote]

None of the other manufacturers had forums dedicated to their putters, so obviously it's a good thing for them. And it's good for Doug because he can turn the forum into a profit source, which it doesn't sound like he was able to do at TCC. Everybody's happy except for a handful of ex-Cameron insiders who can no longer get their "1 of 10" putter covers and COA's for their unfinished blocks of steel.
[/quote]


Doug did not create TCC or PutterTalk as a source of profit. Making this statement is about as careless as any I have read in this thread, or about TCC or PT, ever. Instead of asking Doug, who is a member here, you make this assumption and you are way wrong. Why don't you call or PM Doug and find out the truth before you make this blanket spin post.

[rrkman]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1852225' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:23 PM'][quote name='rrkman' post='1851528' date='Jul 29 2009, 05:03 PM']...But I do have a question for you on the DASS.....do you go to the majority of topics that have even the slightest to do with bettinardi or DASS and make it known that you don't like DASS, it is a marketing ploy, and everyone should use carbon? Some people feel the need to do that about Cameron - that is hate.

I also agree that many people use the hater accusation way too often....but for some, it isn't used enough.[/quote]

To answer your question, if someone asks my preferred base metal, the real answer is BeCu. But since the EPA has all but eliminated that option, I stick with carbon steel. And I have made that point not only in Bettinardi threads, but in Byron threads when people ask why I don't own a Captain Morgan yet. The Captain Morgan is an absolutely stunning putter, especially in the Mystic Pearl finish, but stainless steel and I have never fared as well as carbon steel.

Regarding marketing ploys, the other manufacturers mentioned above deal in one grade of stainless, be it A.S.S. for Byron or DASS for Bettinardi. They don't presume that there is a mythical secondary grade of 303 stainless that is worth double-10X the price tag of their normal stainless putters. Therefore, I'd disagree with your parallel and attempt to apply it to other OEMs. Only one OEM that I know of claims that he needs two types of 303 Stainless and that one is worth the upcharge. Therefore, people calling BS on that isn't hate. It's calling BS because it's truly BS. [/quote]

Maybe my question didn't come across correctly and I think using the term marketing ploy pushed you in the wrong direction.....and the question was sort of rhetorical. I was making a point that some people (and I would call them haters) find just about every cameron thread and feel the need to post little digs that have nothing to do with the topic just to stir up trouble or make cameron or his fans look bad. It is nothing more than a personal vendetta because they feel (and some rightfully so) that cameron either treated them or a close friend poorly...and for some, they weren't even involved in any of it so I'm not sure why they do it - maybe it makes them look cool. Great, some have every right to dislike him, his fans, his products, etc....but, most of the people on here don't come looking for the backstory. Most of the people just want to find a putter that works for them and hope that the putter gurus can help point them in the right direction. I just think that people should answer the questions.....if they are asking about the product and you feel so strongly against the brand or the person that you can't bring yourself to write an honest opinion about it, great - don't. But there just isn't the need to bring the rest of this into every cameron discussion.

Also, I can't find it right now but I thought the person that came up with DASS mentioned that it was just marketing and that it was sort of a joke/dig about the use of GSS. Hopefully this is true because I don't want to accused of lying......but like I said, I can't find that post right now.


[quote][quote]I applaud people that don't give their money to companies because of their business practices. BUT, if you're going to do it, you can't pick and choose what companies you hold to this standard. If you won't buy from Cameron or Titleist because of poor business practice then you better not buy a pair of tennis shoes made in the sweatshops in the far east....or from the retailer that goes into small markets and demands that the suppliers stop selling merchandise through the local mom and pop shops or they will remove the items for all their stores....hopefully you get the point or you could tell me some of your favorite brands and I'll see what kind of dirt I can dig up on them. Do you buy your produce from local farmers or do you support the large grocery stores? Which do you think is more ethical?[/quote]

Again, a nice attempt at diversion. Sneaker manufacturers and clothing sweat shops come under fire for their use of underage labor. Are you saying that Don T. is employing 6 year olds to make his putters? It would explain the infantile colors and names of said colors. But I think your embellishment speaks for itself.

Sneaker manufacturers don't selectively grant different grades of COAs based on the owner. Sneaker manufacturers don't tell a person that they are going to fix their 009 with tungsten weights, then back out on the deal so that they can sell the first LH 009 with Tungsten weights to a bigger collector. When people are calling out Cameron for the questionable business practices, they have detailed complaints. To this day, I have not heard anyone deny that these incidents took place. They will make plenty of excuses as to why it was okay, but they aren't denying that it didn't happen. When that person says "I'm not giving this guy any more money because of these deceptive practices" you're going to look pretty foolish comparing that to a fake Louis Vuitton wallet made by an 8 year old that's being sold on the streets of Hong Kong.

I have never heard a story about Truett or David Mills screwing someone over for a buck. Same with Tad Moore. People claim to have stories on Bettinardi, but nobody dares speak about it. Therefore, I have nothing bad to say about any of the three manufacturers above. I own putters from all three and am very satisfied with them.
[/quote]

I completely agree with you, kidnapping an 8 year old boy and making him work in a sweat shop is not even close to cameron hurting a grown adult's feelings because he treated him differently (and most likely unfairly) than someone else. Or are you saying that what cameron did is worse....because some might read it that way.

And I know that the sneaker companies come under fire for what they do and rightfully so......but think about this the next time you go to the sporting goods store to buy a pair of shoes - do you want the salesman to tell you the pros and cons of the product or do you want a lobbyist speaking over that person telling you why you shouldn't buy that shoe because of the companies business practices?

And listen, I understand what happened and would love to live in a perfect world...but I don't. Some of you guys dislike cameron, his products, his fans, etc....for legitimate reasons. But just admit it. [b][u]It is personal.[/u][/b] If it was your friend that got the first LH 009 with weights, I'm not sure you'd feel the same way. It seems like it wasn't your friend and you have a personal connection in this case. But since you don't in the other examples I brought up (sneaker companies, retailers, etc.), it doesn't bother you as much. Like I said, single him out for what he did to you and your friends but don't pretend to be a martyr and claim that you won't buy from his company because of his business practices unless you are willing to hold every company (not just putters) to those same standards....and I'm not talking about COA's, types of steel, marketing, etc - I'm talking about general ethics, honesty and fairness. I'm not justifying what he does is right and I applaude the people that truly buy products and support companies based on their business practices. And I've made buying decisions based on these as well....but I won't comment on those unless I willing to use the same process for all my decisions....I just don't feel that it is fair to pick and choose when someone should be held to these standards.

And, I have never heard bad stories about the other companies.....does that mean that everything they ever did was 100% honest and that they never screwed anyone over? Certainly possible but it could also be that the stories just haven't been told. I had someone that I trust tell me that Byron is one of the nicest and most honest people out there....also had great things to say about bettinardi. Hopefully someday I'll be a position to meet and know these people, then I can make my own judgement on it....same with Cameron.....and when he sits down with me and says "I want you to be in my inner circle of friends", I will combine all the info I have (good and bad) and determine if I want to be there or not - but I highly doubt that I will ever have to worry about that. So for now, I will not claim the title of martyr and buy the products that I like.....at least until I'm in a position like some of the other posters that know the entire story behind cameron and his competitors.

[geogolf]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852674' date='Jul 30 2009, 09:04 AM']Additionally, the Ping Anser that won most of those tournaments rarely wins these days. Why? Because there are "improved" versions that the Pros would rather play than the original.[/quote]


Correct. The newer Ping Redwood Anser has a Masters under it's belt.

[Arafel]

A.S.S. was started as somewhat of a joke. DASS stands for double aged SS or doubled annealed SS. DASS is a process that gives the metal slightly different properties.

[rrkman]

[quote name='JASONR5' post='1852887' date='Jul 30 2009, 11:04 AM']A.S.S. was started as somewhat of a joke. DASS stands for double aged SS or doubled annealed SS. DASS is a process that gives the metal slightly different properties.[/quote]


Sorry about that...I guess I got them mixed up. For a novice like me, I have a hard time with feel and probably couldn't tell the difference between any of the stainless varieties....still learning.

[funkyfedora]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1852674' date='Jul 30 2009, 08:04 AM'][quote name='funkyfedora' post='1852474' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:52 PM']To an even earlier post about cameron improving on the likes of Karsten and T.P. I laugh at you. You want a fact to support my laughter?? The gold putter vault at Ping. I would love to see a comparative list of number of putters(and the gold wedges don't count.) in the vault compared to the win list of cameron. Yes he is a marketing genius but I highly doubt that his putters will surpass ping in the winning dept...[/quote]

So then I take it you must really laugh at guys like Bettinardi who struggle to win 1 or 2 tournaments a year?

Is it OK for you to make a comparison to Ping in the thread but it's not OK for me to compare Bettinardi?

You guys would be up in arms if someone said Cameron putters are better than TP Mills because they've won more tournaments.

That's the hypocrisy that I don't understand.

Additionally, the Ping Anser that won most of those tournaments rarely wins these days. Why? Because there are "improved" versions that the Pros would rather play than the original.
[/quote]


Sorry, but I have not read a single article on Bob Bettinardi or Jimmy, or Venno, or anybody else for that fact saying that they improved upon the originals. And I believe the fact that pros came to T.P. Mills and actually PAID HIM to do a custom putter shows how strongly they thought of his putters. They get payed to play the "improved designs." And the ams that play sotty hope to be paid when they get on the tour.


So, what are the improvements that were made from Karsten and T.P. ? Different metals used? Fancy A** paintfills? Weight ports? Agressive facemilling? None of which make more putts for the user.

[Redman]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1852838' date='Jul 30 2009, 10:45 AM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1852225' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:23 PM'][quote name='rrkman' post='1851528' date='Jul 29 2009, 05:03 PM']...But I do have a question for you on the DASS.....do you go to the majority of topics that have even the slightest to do with bettinardi or DASS and make it known that you don't like DASS, it is a marketing ploy, and everyone should use carbon? Some people feel the need to do that about Cameron - that is hate.

I also agree that many people use the hater accusation way too often....but for some, it isn't used enough.[/quote]

To answer your question, if someone asks my preferred base metal, the real answer is BeCu. But since the EPA has all but eliminated that option, I stick with carbon steel. And I have made that point not only in Bettinardi threads, but in Byron threads when people ask why I don't own a Captain Morgan yet. The Captain Morgan is an absolutely stunning putter, especially in the Mystic Pearl finish, but stainless steel and I have never fared as well as carbon steel.

Regarding marketing ploys, the other manufacturers mentioned above deal in one grade of stainless, be it A.S.S. for Byron or DASS for Bettinardi. They don't presume that there is a mythical secondary grade of 303 stainless that is worth double-10X the price tag of their normal stainless putters. Therefore, I'd disagree with your parallel and attempt to apply it to other OEMs. Only one OEM that I know of claims that he needs two types of 303 Stainless and that one is worth the upcharge. Therefore, people calling BS on that isn't hate. It's calling BS because it's truly BS. [/quote]

Maybe my question didn't come across correctly and I think using the term marketing ploy pushed you in the wrong direction.....and the question was sort of rhetorical. I was making a point that some people (and I would call them haters) find just about every cameron thread and feel the need to post little digs that have nothing to do with the topic just to stir up trouble or make cameron or his fans look bad. It is nothing more than a personal vendetta because they feel (and some rightfully so) that cameron either treated them or a close friend poorly...and for some, they weren't even involved in any of it so I'm not sure why they do it - maybe it makes them look cool. Great, some have every right to dislike him, his fans, his products, etc....but, most of the people on here don't come looking for the backstory. Most of the people just want to find a putter that works for them and hope that the putter gurus can help point them in the right direction. I just think that people should answer the questions.....if they are asking about the product and you feel so strongly against the brand or the person that you can't bring yourself to write an honest opinion about it, great - don't. But there just isn't the need to bring the rest of this into every cameron discussion.

Also, I can't find it right now but I thought the person that came up with DASS mentioned that it was just marketing and that it was sort of a joke/dig about the use of GSS. Hopefully this is true because I don't want to accused of lying......but like I said, I can't find that post right now.


[quote][quote]I applaud people that don't give their money to companies because of their business practices. BUT, if you're going to do it, you can't pick and choose what companies you hold to this standard. If you won't buy from Cameron or Titleist because of poor business practice then you better not buy a pair of tennis shoes made in the sweatshops in the far east....or from the retailer that goes into small markets and demands that the suppliers stop selling merchandise through the local mom and pop shops or they will remove the items for all their stores....hopefully you get the point or you could tell me some of your favorite brands and I'll see what kind of dirt I can dig up on them. Do you buy your produce from local farmers or do you support the large grocery stores? Which do you think is more ethical?[/quote]

Again, a nice attempt at diversion. Sneaker manufacturers and clothing sweat shops come under fire for their use of underage labor. Are you saying that Don T. is employing 6 year olds to make his putters? It would explain the infantile colors and names of said colors. But I think your embellishment speaks for itself.

Sneaker manufacturers don't selectively grant different grades of COAs based on the owner. Sneaker manufacturers don't tell a person that they are going to fix their 009 with tungsten weights, then back out on the deal so that they can sell the first LH 009 with Tungsten weights to a bigger collector. When people are calling out Cameron for the questionable business practices, they have detailed complaints. To this day, I have not heard anyone deny that these incidents took place. They will make plenty of excuses as to why it was okay, but they aren't denying that it didn't happen. When that person says "I'm not giving this guy any more money because of these deceptive practices" you're going to look pretty foolish comparing that to a fake Louis Vuitton wallet made by an 8 year old that's being sold on the streets of Hong Kong.

I have never heard a story about Truett or David Mills screwing someone over for a buck. Same with Tad Moore. People claim to have stories on Bettinardi, but nobody dares speak about it. Therefore, I have nothing bad to say about any of the three manufacturers above. I own putters from all three and am very satisfied with them.
[/quote]

I completely agree with you, kidnapping an 8 year old boy and making him work in a sweat shop is not even close to cameron hurting a grown adult's feelings because he treated him differently (and most likely unfairly) than someone else. Or are you saying that what cameron did is worse....because some might read it that way.

And I know that the sneaker companies come under fire for what they do and rightfully so......but think about this the next time you go to the sporting goods store to buy a pair of shoes - do you want the salesman to tell you the pros and cons of the product or do you want a lobbyist speaking over that person telling you why you shouldn't buy that shoe because of the companies business practices?

And listen, I understand what happened and would love to live in a perfect world...but I don't. Some of you guys dislike cameron, his products, his fans, etc....for legitimate reasons. But just admit it. [b][u]It is personal.[/u][/b] If it was your friend that got the first LH 009 with weights, I'm not sure you'd feel the same way. It seems like it wasn't your friend and you have a personal connection in this case. But since you don't in the other examples I brought up (sneaker companies, retailers, etc.), it doesn't bother you as much. Like I said, single him out for what he did to you and your friends but don't pretend to be a martyr and claim that you won't buy from his company because of his business practices unless you are willing to hold every company (not just putters) to those same standards....and I'm not talking about COA's, types of steel, marketing, etc - I'm talking about general ethics, honesty and fairness. I'm not justifying what he does is right and I applaude the people that truly buy products and support companies based on their business practices. And I've made buying decisions based on these as well....but I won't comment on those unless I willing to use the same process for all my decisions....I just don't feel that it is fair to pick and choose when someone should be held to these standards.

And, I have never heard bad stories about the other companies.....does that mean that everything they ever did was 100% honest and that they never screwed anyone over? Certainly possible but it could also be that the stories just haven't been told. I had someone that I trust tell me that Byron is one of the nicest and most honest people out there....also had great things to say about bettinardi. Hopefully someday I'll be a position to meet and know these people, then I can make my own judgement on it....same with Cameron.....and when he sits down with me and says "I want you to be in my inner circle of friends", I will combine all the info I have (good and bad) and determine if I want to be there or not - but I highly doubt that I will ever have to worry about that. So for now, I will not claim the title of martyr and buy the products that I like.....[b]at least until I'm in a position like some of the other posters that know the entire story behind cameron and his competitors.[/b][/quote]

So what do you think you are missing for the entire story? There has been 40 pages of threads and well over a 1,000 posts coming from several people that were involved and do know the story that have been trying to tell it. Of course they are going to be labeled as biased by the Cameron side because they are negative; however, there has been no posts from the Cameron side to dispute the stories and say that it happened another way. All there has been from TCC side are posts trying to defend why Cameron screwed people over whether it be the website, putters, etc. I think this has been the most frustrating part for me is that Foregasim, RobotDoctor, Geo, etc keep getting called haters but they are telling a story. Of course it is one sided because it is their stories of first hand knowledge they know. If you choose not to believe it that is fine. But instead of just defending Cameron to the death for his practices can we hear a different side to the story? I don't think we can because I think it all went down as it has been explained on here over and over. That is why Cameron supporters are so quick to defend and trying to discredit Foregasim et al. What does an attorney do when they don't have very good evidence of their own? They spend the majority of the time trying to find ways to discredit the other side's witnesses so as to create doubt.

[stage1350]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1852838' date='Jul 30 2009, 09:45 AM'][quote name='stage1350' post='1852225' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:23 PM'][quote name='rrkman' post='1851528' date='Jul 29 2009, 05:03 PM']...But I do have a question for you on the DASS.....do you go to the majority of topics that have even the slightest to do with bettinardi or DASS and make it known that you don't like DASS, it is a marketing ploy, and everyone should use carbon? Some people feel the need to do that about Cameron - that is hate.

I also agree that many people use the hater accusation way too often....but for some, it isn't used enough.[/quote]
[b]Parsed for the sake of brevity..[/b]
Regarding marketing ploys, the other manufacturers mentioned above deal in one grade of stainless, be it A.S.S. for Byron or DASS for Bettinardi. They don't presume that there is a mythical secondary grade of 303 stainless that is worth double-10X the price tag of their normal stainless putters. Therefore, I'd disagree with your parallel and attempt to apply it to other OEMs. Only one OEM that I know of claims that he needs two types of 303 Stainless and that one is worth the upcharge. Therefore, people calling BS on that isn't hate. It's calling BS because it's truly BS. [/quote]

Maybe my question didn't come across correctly and I think using the term marketing ploy pushed you in the wrong direction.....and the question was sort of rhetorical. I was making a point that some people (and I would call them haters) find just about every cameron thread and feel the need to post little digs that have nothing to do with the topic just to stir up trouble or make cameron or his fans look bad. It is nothing more than a personal vendetta because they feel (and some rightfully so) that cameron either treated them or a close friend poorly...and for some, they weren't even involved in any of it so I'm not sure why they do it - maybe it makes them look cool. Great, some have every right to dislike him, his fans, his products, etc....but, most of the people on here don't come looking for the backstory. Most of the people just want to find a putter that works for them and hope that the putter gurus can help point them in the right direction. I just think that people should answer the questions.....if they are asking about the product and you feel so strongly against the brand or the person that you can't bring yourself to write an honest opinion about it, great - don't. But there just isn't the need to bring the rest of this into every cameron discussion.

Also, I can't find it right now but I thought the person that came up with DASS mentioned that it was just marketing and that it was sort of a joke/dig about the use of GSS. Hopefully this is true because I don't want to accused of lying......but like I said, I can't find that post right now. [/quote]

Actually, I answered your exact question even if it's not the one that you wanted to ask. The reason (as stated) above that A.S.S. and DASS are not "marketing ploys" is that that is simply that OEMs name for 303 stainless, either with out without reference to the annealing process. But the other company in this equation is touting two different types of stainless and making claims that one is worth much more than the other. When you claim that the metal in Tiger's putter is worth $7000 like they did in the Autoweek article, you are claiming BS and deserve any criticism that's levied as a result of that "marketing ploy." If you don't want to listen to the "hate," why not stop making outrageous claims?

Now, ask yourself why nobody does this in Bettinardi/Byron/Mills/etc threads. Have you considered that a lot of people may have a beef with Cameron and that's why there is posting like that? If there's less posting like than in other OEMs threads, have you considered that maybe the business practices of that particular company are different that Cameron?

Having worked with the public and customer service for almost two decades, a happy customer will tell an average of 5 people. A pissed off customer will tell an average of 20 people. Moral of the story? Run a fair and honest business. Don't piss off customers just to make an extra buck.

I'll answer the other part of the discussion later, lest this post become a mile long...

[Six Pints]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1853031' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:00 PM']Now, ask yourself why nobody does this in Bettinardi/Byron/Mills/etc threads. Have you considered that a lot of people may have a beef with Cameron and that's why there is posting like that? If there's less posting like than in other OEMs threads, have you considered that maybe the business practices of that particular company are different that Cameron?

Having worked with the public and customer service for almost two decades, a happy customer will tell an average of 5 people. A pissed off customer will tell an average of 20 people. Moral of the story? Run a fair and honest business. Don't piss off customers just to make an extra buck.[/quote]


And to think Cameron sums all that up with... "I feel their jealousy". It's comments like that that seem to cause a divide amongst putter enthusiasts. I kinda wonder if the price of the Cameron putters (with extra confidence added of course) have driven some of the owners/zealots to capture some of the same ego-centric attitude as they practically quote the marketing diatribe. Is it possible to live vicariously thru Scotty Cameron by buying an expensive putter? Is it possible for the needy to capture it for the price of an OTR?

[rrkman]

[quote name='Redman' post='1852961' date='Jul 30 2009, 11:35 AM']So what do you think you are missing for the entire story? There has been 40 pages of threads and well over a 1,000 posts coming from several people that were involved and do know the story that have been trying to tell it. Of course they are going to be labeled as biased by the Cameron side because they are negative; however, there has been no posts from the Cameron side to dispute the stories and say that it happened another way. All there has been from TCC side are posts trying to defend why Cameron screwed people over whether it be the website, putters, etc. I think this has been the most frustrating part for me is that Foregasim, RobotDoctor, Geo, etc keep getting called haters but they are telling a story. Of course it is one sided because it is their stories of first hand knowledge they know. If you choose not to believe it that is fine. But instead of just defending Cameron to the death for his practices can we hear a different side to the story? I don't think we can because I think it all went down as it has been explained on here over and over. That is why Cameron supporters are so quick to defend and trying to discredit Foregasim et al. What does an attorney do when they don't have very good evidence of their own? They spend the majority of the time trying to find ways to discredit the other side's witnesses so as to create doubt.[/quote]

So you're saying that by reading this thread, I now know as much as Geo, Foregasim, and/or RB about this? Thank you for the compliment.

Personally, I've never called any of those 3 haters....although I have seen some inappropiate comments from Foregasim....and he does have a pretty harsh style to his posts. They all seem to be well educated about this situation and most of the time post facts, and I can't remember ever seeing a disrespectful comment from Geo and/or RB. I also don't agree with the people that use 'you are just a hater' as their defense. In many instances, the hater defense is justified but it certainly isn't when they post 'facts' that pertain to the subject and have some sort of credible back-up for those facts. It is disappointing that more cameron supporters aren't present to post the 'facts' from their side.....certainly makes it easier to believe the 'facts' that were presented here. It would be even better if the 2 top guys would come in here and post their side of the story....in reality, they are the only ones that know the entire thing, right?

By the way, I think many of the anti-cameron posts are biased. Many times, these posters take into account their personal feelings toward the brand and the collectors when judging the individual product....that is pretty much how I define biased. If you don't see this, please let me know. I'm sure I can find some examples.....maybe even some from you. Same as the pro-cameron people....they are certainly biased the other way. For either group, if you took 2 almost identical putters - one from Cameron and one from Bettinardi - and had them 'test' them, I'm pretty sure that they would pick their 'favorite' a little faster and more often if they knew which one was which before testing them....I'm not sure that you would get the exact same results if it was a true 'blind' test. This is called being biased. And I can admit that I am biased towards cameron. I currently use his product and like the performance from it. But, I think that I am also mature enough to try and make unbiased opinions on things....although that might not always be the case, at least I try....I don't think I can say that I see that same effort from many of the people on either side.

[rrkman]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1853031' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:00 PM']Actually, I answered your exact question even if it's not the one that you wanted to ask. The reason (as stated) above that A.S.S. and DASS are not "marketing ploys" is that that is simply that OEMs name for 303 stainless, either with out without reference to the annealing process. But the other company in this equation is touting two different types of stainless and making claims that one is worth much more than the other. When you claim that the metal in Tiger's putter is worth $7000 like they did in the Autoweek article, you are claiming BS and deserve any criticism that's levied as a result of that "marketing ploy." [b]If you don't want to listen to the "hate," why not stop making outrageous claims?
[/b]
Now, ask yourself why nobody does this in Bettinardi/Byron/Mills/etc threads. Have you considered that a lot of people may have a beef with Cameron and that's why there is posting like that? If there's less posting like than in other OEMs threads, have you considered that maybe the business practices of that particular company are different that Cameron?

Having worked with the public and customer service for almost two decades, a happy customer will tell an average of 5 people. A pissed off customer will tell an average of 20 people. Moral of the story? Run a fair and honest business. Don't piss off customers just to make an extra buck.

I'll answer the other part of the discussion later, lest this post become a mile long...[/quote]

First off, all stainless is the stainless to me....like I've said before - I'm a novice in this stuff. Most of my putters are regular stainless and if I (and I probably will so I can make the comparison myself) do buy a cameron stainless 'tour' putter, it will be SSS. I agree with you and cannot justify the upcharge for GSS. Some people can - whether they justify by saying that GSS 'feels' better to them, or that it is a 'status' to have the same material as Tiger, or just because they have the money and want to spend it on something - all up to them.

The bold part in your response is what I really want to address. This is the big problem that I have. If some heavily pro-cameron poster comes in here and starts making outrageous claims about GSS being so much better and that the other companies suck, etc.....then attack, comment, disprove, whatever - go at it. My problem lies with the normal user that comes on here and asks about a $150 select that they saw in the used bin and all they want to know is if the putter is a decent putter. When people start posting things like 'get the original - try a ping'.....or, 'cameron is a thief'.....or, 'nice anser'.......How is that helpful? I call that hate....and I already said that some of it is amusing and viewed as sarcasm and/or jokes but for the most part, it is hate. If you would like to explain to that person what the other options are, go ahead. Keep it factual and respectful. Most likely that person could care less that a friend of yours had a falling out with Cameron because Cameron screwed him over on a personal matter or transaction. Don't get me wrong, this thread has been very interesting.....but, not every cameron thread needs to be brought down the same path.

Also, I worked in the headquarters of retail chains for a number of years and understand customer service and customer satisfaction. But at the end of the day and to the people paying the bills, it is about profit. Sometimes one person is unhappy with a decision and will tell 20 people about it....but if that same decision gains you 100 customers, it was a smart decision. I'm not saying that it was ethical or 'right'...I'm saying that it was a smart business decision. Personally, if my name was on the front of the building, I would want everyone to leave feeling confident that their treatment was fair and honest. Problem is that in corporate america, even when they say it is the most important thing, generally it isn't.

And, there certainly is more negative posting toward cameron and the majority of it seems to come from a handful of individuals....and at least to me, it is getting a little old. It was great hearing these stories but when someone asks about a cameron putter, hopefully these individuals can just answer the question because I do believe that they know what they are talking about when they can stick to the topic and try to make an unbiased opinion on a product.

[Huntingchris0000]

Someone from the Cameron side please provide some proof that the things said here aren't true. I have yet to see any proof from the Cameron side but I have seen a lot of speculation.

[stage1350]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1853167' date='Jul 30 2009, 11:56 AM']Also, I worked in the headquarters of retail chains for a number of years and understand customer service and customer satisfaction. But at the end of the day and to the people paying the bills, it is about profit. Sometimes one person is unhappy with a decision and will tell 20 people about it....but if that same decision gains you 100 customers, it was a smart decision. I'm not saying that it was ethical or 'right'...I'm saying that it was a smart business decision. Personally, if my name was on the front of the building, I would want everyone to leave feeling confident that their treatment was fair and honest. Problem is that in corporate america, even when they say it is the most important thing, generally it isn't.[/quote]

I'd agree with your argument from a business perspective. But you are still leaving a bad taste in someone's mouth. That person is going to talk and the story will get perpetuated. If each customer in that group has an equal worth and some customers aren't worth more than others, you can make that decision and get away with it.

Now, instead of screwing 20 to gain 100, imagine screwing a few hundred. Imagine that these people are or were some of your best customers, not low tier but top clients. Imagine some of these people carry some influence and notoriety in your primary customer base, therefore their words carry more weight than Joe Blow. When [i]those[/i] people start complaining, it's going to send a ripple effect through your hard core clients.

Now imagine that the business owner draws the "with us or against us" line in the sand. You are now making a bad situation worse and adding fuel to the fire because some people will tell you to go suck it for making them choose. How dare he...

At some point, poor business choices like this have a way of coming around and biting you in the a$$.

JAT

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1853325' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:12 PM'][quote name='rrkman' post='1853167' date='Jul 30 2009, 11:56 AM']Also, I worked in the headquarters of retail chains for a number of years and understand customer service and customer satisfaction. But at the end of the day and to the people paying the bills, it is about profit. Sometimes one person is unhappy with a decision and will tell 20 people about it....but if that same decision gains you 100 customers, it was a smart decision. I'm not saying that it was ethical or 'right'...I'm saying that it was a smart business decision. Personally, if my name was on the front of the building, I would want everyone to leave feeling confident that their treatment was fair and honest. Problem is that in corporate america, even when they say it is the most important thing, generally it isn't.[/quote]

I'd agree with your argument from a business perspective. But you are still leaving a bad taste in someone's mouth. That person is going to talk and the story will get perpetuated. If each customer in that group has an equal worth and some customers aren't worth more than others, you can make that decision and get away with it.

Now, instead of screwing 20 to gain 100, imagine screwing a few hundred. Imagine that these people are or were some of your best customers, not low tier but top clients. Imagine some of these people carry some influence and notoriety in your primary customer base, therefore their words carry more weight than Joe Blow. When [i]those[/i] people start complaining, it's going to send a ripple effect through your hard core clients.

Now imagine that the business owner draws the "with us or against us" line in the sand. You are now making a bad situation worse and adding fuel to the fire because some people will tell you to go suck it for making them choose. How dare he...

At some point, poor business choices like this have a way of coming around and biting you in the a$$.

JAT
[/quote]

Absolutely agree with this. I am the[i] "Joe Blow"[/i] (inconsequential guy) while others are the high end collector. To carry this concept further, what happens when several hundred, if not thousands, of Joe Blows decide to fore-go the offerings of the product from [i]"Mr. Line in the Sand"[/i] along with a few high end collectors? Talk about a ripple.

[tangojay]

[quote name='Huntingchris0000' post='1853186' date='Jul 30 2009, 01:03 PM']Someone from the Cameron side please provide some proof that the things said here aren't true. I have yet to see any proof from the Cameron side but I have seen a lot of speculation.[/quote]


Like biscuty said, Got to the Cameron blog and his websites, that is the truth .

[Redman]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1853077' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:20 PM'][quote name='Redman' post='1852961' date='Jul 30 2009, 11:35 AM']So what do you think you are missing for the entire story? There has been 40 pages of threads and well over a 1,000 posts coming from several people that were involved and do know the story that have been trying to tell it. Of course they are going to be labeled as biased by the Cameron side because they are negative; however, there has been no posts from the Cameron side to dispute the stories and say that it happened another way. All there has been from TCC side are posts trying to defend why Cameron screwed people over whether it be the website, putters, etc. I think this has been the most frustrating part for me is that Foregasim, RobotDoctor, Geo, etc keep getting called haters but they are telling a story. Of course it is one sided because it is their stories of first hand knowledge they know. If you choose not to believe it that is fine. But instead of just defending Cameron to the death for his practices can we hear a different side to the story? I don't think we can because I think it all went down as it has been explained on here over and over. That is why Cameron supporters are so quick to defend and trying to discredit Foregasim et al. What does an attorney do when they don't have very good evidence of their own? They spend the majority of the time trying to find ways to discredit the other side's witnesses so as to create doubt.[/quote]

So you're saying that by reading this thread, I now know as much as Geo, Foregasim, and/or RB about this? Thank you for the compliment.

Personally, I've never called any of those 3 haters....although I have seen some inappropiate comments from Foregasim....and he does have a pretty harsh style to his posts. They all seem to be well educated about this situation and most of the time post facts, and I can't remember ever seeing a disrespectful comment from Geo and/or RB. I also don't agree with the people that use 'you are just a hater' as their defense. In many instances, the hater defense is justified but it certainly isn't when they post 'facts' that pertain to the subject and have some sort of credible back-up for those facts. It is disappointing that more cameron supporters aren't present to post the 'facts' from their side.....certainly makes it easier to believe the 'facts' that were presented here. It would be even better if the 2 top guys would come in here and post their side of the story....in reality, they are the only ones that know the entire thing, right?

By the way, I think many of the anti-cameron posts are biased. Many times, these posters take into account their personal feelings toward the brand and the collectors when judging the individual product....that is pretty much how I define biased. If you don't see this, please let me know. I'm sure I can find some examples.....maybe even some from you. Same as the pro-cameron people....they are certainly biased the other way. For either group, if you took 2 almost identical putters - one from Cameron and one from Bettinardi - and had them 'test' them, I'm pretty sure that they would pick their 'favorite' a little faster and more often if they knew which one was which before testing them....I'm not sure that you would get the exact same results if it was a true 'blind' test. This is called being biased. And I can admit that I am biased towards cameron. I currently use his product and like the performance from it. [b]But, I think that I am also mature enough to try and make unbiased opinions on things[/b]....although that might not always be the case, at least I try....I don't think I can say that I see that same effort from many of the people on either side.
[/quote]

I have no idea where you could even come up with how I was saying by reading the thread that you know as much as Foregasim and others. No I was definitely not saying that.

Related to the bold...you are not being unbiased in here. You say you are and trying to be but you aren't. You can't be because as you said you are biased toward Cameron because you like the product. And there is nothing wrong with that if you are just interested because of the product and the business practices don't bother you. Of course the anti-Cameron posts are biased. How could they not be? If you were one of the ones that got burned like a lot of the TCC mods you would be very biased about not liking Cameron or his products as well - there is no way you can say you wouldn't be. Each of us are going to be biased toward what we like. That is human nature. That is how we buy things. A person has emotional ties usually to a product that they like and have had good history or success with. But once that person gets burned by that product or company they are going to have a bias towards it. What is wrong with that? So to say that all the ex-Cameron guys are biased is perfectly true. The point is that they have EVERY right to be and it doesn't change the fact of the shadyness that happened to them and that it wasn't right and it isn't right what Cameron is doing with the limited edition covers, the 009 "Tour" and so called "Prototype" putters, stampings, COAs etc. If you are ok with these business practices then once again I say that is fine for you. But don't defend Cameron to these guys that have seen or been a part of the shadyness.

[rrkman]

Stage - first off, I want to thank you for having a respectful discussion about this with me.

And I agree that the decisions that were made (especially when talked about from those that walked away from the cameron world) make no sense to me. As a businessman, I would want to limit the negatives as much as I could. But also as an outsider, I would love to hear his thoughts behind what was done and why he did it. Just speculation - did he think that the people stepping into those now vacant roles could be of more benefit to his business model?...I guess I could atleast accept that as a reason. Or, did he just not care? Or, did he think that by drawing the line in the sand it would 'scare' everybody back in line and didn't expect this outcome.

As for the with us or against us stance. I sort of understand [b]PART[/b] of this from a cameron perspective. I would not want the same people associated with a site talking about all putter brands to be insiders or mods on my fan site as well....just comes across as a conflict of interest. Personally, I hope that I would have handled it better because I think having these ex-insiders leave happy and still be able to spread the word about cameron is a better situation to cameron than this current situation. He pretty much left them no choice but to do what they are doing now....which I certainly don't view as ideal from any viewpoint.

And I've dealt with many businesses that have that same line in the sand. Some can get away with it, some can't. We'll have to wait and see on this one.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='Huntingchris0000' post='1853186' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:03 PM']Someone from the Cameron side please provide some proof that the things said here aren't true. I have yet to see any proof from the Cameron side but I have seen a lot of speculation.[/quote]

Why? To perpetuate the pissing match between faceless internet posters over things that so far have been almost completely 3rd party stories? Sounds like a tremendous waste of time.

I have had nothing but positive experiences with Scotty and that is what I choose to base my decisions from. Have others had negative ones? Sure. Why are you asking me to care? Doug Hardman and friends are all grown men. They didn't need me to carry their flag when they felt they were wronged. They chose to move on, I (and plenty of others) chose to stay at TCC. I believe some were offended when the people who chose to stick around at TCC didn't rally to their cause, but unless you had a personal relationship with those involved, there was really no reason to pick up your own camp just because someone else felt they were slighted.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with being a strong minded business person. I expect Scotty to be ruthless in his attempt to stay at the top, I expect competitors to be just as ruthless trying to get a bigger piece of the pie. We have this romantic feeling about this because it's our hobby and many of us are passionate. But if anyone things for a split second that putter makers and their distributors are in it for anything besides selling putters, you need to pull your heads....

About the only good thing out of this thread for me is that I've been able to reconnect with old friends. It's healthy to remember this is just a hobby and that personal relationships can transcend putters.

[tpariff]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1853395' date='Jul 30 2009, 02:40 PM']Stage - first off, I want to thank you for having a respectful discussion about this with me.

And I agree that the decisions that were made (especially when talked about from those that walked away from the cameron world) make no sense to me. As a businessman, I would want to limit the negatives as much as I could. But also as an outsider, I would love to hear his thoughts behind what was done and why he did it. Just speculation - did he think that the people stepping into those now vacant roles could be of more benefit to his business model?...I guess I could atleast accept that as a reason. Or, did he just not care? Or, did he think that by drawing the line in the sand it would 'scare' everybody back in line and didn't expect this outcome.

As for the with us or against us stance. I sort of understand [b]PART[/b] of this from a cameron perspective. [b] I would not want the same people associated with a site talking about all putter brands to be insiders or mods on my fan site as well....just comes across as a conflict of interest.[/b] Personally, I hope that I would have handled it better because I think having these ex-insiders leave happy and still be able to spread the word about cameron is a better situation to cameron than this current situation. He pretty much left them no choice but to do what they are doing now....which I certainly don't view as ideal from any viewpoint.

And I've dealt with many businesses that have that same line in the sand. Some can get away with it, some can't. We'll have to wait and see on this one.[/quote]

FWIW, there ARE guys who are insiders, FOV, whatever you want to call them who ALSO buy and game putters from other makers. In fact, some of those guys attend both the ICC and socials for these other makers, namely RJB. Does that compromise their loyalty to Scotty?

Kevin

[rrkman]

[quote name='Redman' post='1853391' date='Jul 30 2009, 02:39 PM']I have no idea where you could even come up with how I was saying by reading the thread that you know as much as Foregasim and others. No I was definitely not saying that.

Related to the bold...you are not being unbiased in here. You say you are and trying to be but you aren't. You can't be because as you said you are biased toward Cameron because you like the product. And there is nothing wrong with that if you are just interested because of the product and the business practices don't bother you. Of course the anti-Cameron posts are biased. How could they not be? If you were one of the ones that got burned like a lot of the TCC mods you would be very biased about not liking Cameron or his products as well - there is no way you can say you wouldn't be. Each of us are going to be biased toward what we like. That is human nature. That is how we buy things. A person has emotional ties usually to a product that they like and have had good history or success with. But once that person gets burned by that product or company they are going to have a bias towards it. What is wrong with that? So to say that all the ex-Cameron guys are biased is perfectly true. The point is that they have EVERY right to be and it doesn't change the fact of the shadyness that happened to them and that it wasn't right and it isn't right what Cameron is doing with the limited edition covers, the 009 "Tour" and so called "Prototype" putters, stampings, COAs etc. If you are ok with these business practices then once again I say that is fine for you. But don't defend Cameron to these guys that have seen or been a part of the shadyness.[/quote]

I was just saying that not every piece of info about this can be found in this thread....and I should have put some sort of emoticon to help show that it was more of a joke. I'm sure that Fore, Geo, and RB even know more than they shared in here. There are certainly other points of view on this....and they are not part of this thread....I guess by their choice. There are probably even some unbiased points of view that have decided to not spend their time on this.

Also, just to clear up my stance on a couple things. I don't like the shady business practices....but in this case, if true, they have little or no effect on me.....just like the shady business practices of many companies have no effect on most of you. I'm not the one that can't get a 'preferred' COA for some highly collectible putter....because I don't have one. If I did and was a big time collector, it probably would....unless I was on the other side and could get the 'preferred' COA to increase value for my product because my main reason for collecting was to make money - why wouldn't I want that to happen? For me, I buy things that I like. Not because they are 'worth' more or because I can make money on them....this isn't my goal.

And, overall, I'm not talking about the bias in this topic. I'm talking about the bias in normal threads. A completely biased opinion is of no use to the newbie trying to figure out what will work for them on the green....and this goes from both sides. A comment saying how great cameron products are and that he should be worshipped is no better than the bashing. There will always be some bias but trying to minimize it is the only way to make the other threads useful. I just disagree with telling someone that the products suck because of your personal dislike of cameron and/or his business practices....I don't think that is what this site is for. If you want to start an anti-cameron forum where people can find out about these things, go ahead. I hope that makes sense.

Please don't take this as defending cameron. I'm just trying to participate in a topic that is of interest to me.

[Huntingchris0000]

Why? because it would make it much more interesting to disprove what the other side has proved. Your answer CPSOX was diversion again and I don't know why because if any of the Cameron people have proof that it is just lies why would they not prove it?????

[CPSOX]

[quote name='Huntingchris0000' post='1853485' date='Jul 30 2009, 02:20 PM']Why? because it would make it much more interesting to disprove what the other side has proved. Your answer CPSOX was diversion again and I don't know why because if any of the Cameron people have proof that it is just lies why would they not prove it?????[/quote]

Exactly what "facts" would you like me to comment on? Please name them from this thread that the poster had a FIRST HAND experience with Cameron, not an interpretation of what may have happened. I would be more than happy to comment then. I have no desire to comment on this such as:

1. Why Scotty stamped a putter a certain way 15+ years ago
2. Why Scotty and Betti broke up
3. Why Scotty and past business relationships may or may not still exist

Why no desire to comment on these topics? Because I don't know. Nobody here, TCC or PT knows. Anyone who claims they do know is either full of crap or Scotty Cameron himself. Just because some people decide to write longer posts than others, doesn't mean they have a frickin' clue. Your opinion/interpretation means the same as mine.....not at all.

[rrkman]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1853442' date='Jul 30 2009, 02:59 PM']FWIW, there ARE guys who are insiders, FOV, whatever you want to call them who ALSO buy and game putters from other makers. In fact, some of those guys attend both the ICC and socials for these other makers, namely RJB. Does that compromise their loyalty to Scotty?

Kevin[/quote]

Kevin....you are certainly correct. Personally, I think everyone should have a variety of brands and styles of putters. There are too many great products out there and you would be missing out if you never experienced what other makers could offer. I have a couple pings sitting right next to my couple camerons. And if money grew on trees at my house, I would have a bettinardi, a Byron, a Machine, and numerous other brands sitting there as well...and probably another cameron or 2. I also don't think that you can be a true 'expert' if you haven't tried the competition.....your opinion doesn't mean much to me if the only putter you've ever tried is a Cameron and you tell me that they are the best thing ever. Tell me that you love it, that it works for you, and that you have no desire to try something else, fine.....but you can't compare it to something else if you've never tried it.

What I meant was that having the same mods on both sites doesn't make sense to me. And as an example, having the head bettinardi 'spokesman' also be the head cameron 'spokesman' just doesn't make sense to me either. It is poor marketing and the one thing that I think we all agree on is that Cameron is successful with his marketing. As a business owner, I would not want the 'face' of my company to be the same as the 'face' of a competitor. And to most of us, these forums and the people that are active in them become the face (or middle man) of these companies. Hopefully this clears it up but I can admit that I'm not a writer so this could have just messed it up more.

[Redman]

[quote name='rrkman' post='1853478' date='Jul 30 2009, 03:19 PM']And, overall, I'm not talking about the bias in this topic. I'm talking about the bias in normal threads. A completely biased opinion is of no use to the newbie trying to figure out what will work for them on the green....and this goes from both sides. A comment saying how great cameron products are and that he should be worshipped is no better than the bashing. There will always be some bias but trying to minimize it is the only way to make the other threads useful. I just disagree with telling someone that the products suck because of your personal dislike of cameron and/or his business practices....I don't think that is what this site is for. If you want to start an anti-cameron forum where people can find out about these things, go ahead. I hope that makes sense.[/quote]

I 100% agree. Hey....look at that. Who would have thunk it?

[HOHO]

[b]Let's all HUG IT OUT ! [/b]