Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[ws6]

[quote name='finalist' post='1858769' date='Aug 1 2009, 10:09 PM']Here's a list of Pros who haved used a Byron stick (this list is a direct quote from Byron).

[i]"Kevin Na, James Oh, Hunter Mahan, Tom Shaw, Andy Bean, Arnold Palmer, Tag Ridings, Lee Trevino, Raymond Floyd, Howard Clark, Charlie Garza, Jack Stenicke, Paul Dietsche, Ted Norby, Joe Acosta, Masaru Amano, Ben Smith, Bob Gaus, Geoge Burns, Chad Wright, Darrell Kestner, Michael Caporale, Andrew Magee, Yon Yim, John Mahaffey, Rocco Constantino, Massy Kuramoto, Sandy Lyle, Bruce Crampton, Johnny Pott and many more have used a Byron in high school or college or on the PGA Tour."[/i]

I'll also mention Payne Stewart gamed one of Byron's flatsticks for a short time before the Seemore(?) he used last.
Then came the tee up money to switch for many of the names above. Thanks Acushnet and Callaway.[/quote]

Steve Pate won on tour in 1992 in San Diego with a Byron.

[Redman]

[quote name='finalist' post='1858769' date='Aug 2 2009, 01:09 AM']Here's a list of Pros who haved used a Byron stick (this list is a direct quote from Byron).

[i]"Kevin Na, James Oh, Hunter Mahan, Tom Shaw, Andy Bean, Arnold Palmer, Tag Ridings, Lee Trevino, Raymond Floyd, Howard Clark, Charlie Garza, Jack Stenicke, Paul Dietsche, Ted Norby, Joe Acosta, Masaru Amano, Ben Smith, Bob Gaus, Geoge Burns, Chad Wright, Darrell Kestner, Michael Caporale, Andrew Magee, Yon Yim, John Mahaffey, Rocco Constantino, [b]Massy Kuramoto[/b], Sandy Lyle, Bruce Crampton, Johnny Pott and many more have used a Byron in high school or college or on the PGA Tour."[/i]

I'll also mention Payne Stewart gamed one of Byron's flatsticks for a short time before the Seemore(?) he used last.
Then came the tee up money to switch for many of the names above. Thanks Acushnet and Callaway.[/quote]


This is some new and very very interesting information that we now know Massy Kuramoto played with a Byron. Especially knowing that Byron had made his own mini long before Scotty did. This can take this thread in a whole new direction if more information around this comes out.

Now this is competele speculation and I have no proof for TCC camp, but why in the he11 would a person cut a section of a putter out of the middle and weld it back together when there was a mini already out there? Foregasim's story sounds like it could have potential!!

[jick]

[quote name='hodges' post='1852018' date='Jul 30 2009, 10:56 AM'][quote name='jick' post='1843625' date='Jul 26 2009, 02:34 AM']When Cameron gives over-the-top ego-centric statements such as him improving on Karsten and Mills, or that he is paving the way to , or that his stainless steel putters are made from recycled forks and knives, or that he feels the jealousy of many, or that he is on the verge of a discovery that will alter the future of putting itself --- then those can be attributed to Cameron and reflect on his person.[/quote]

Jick I get the feeling you don't think that Cameron's versions of the original Karsten and Mills models are improvements.
Has anybody improved these designs in your mind?

Improvement to an original design can be measured one way by if it becomes a commerical success. Does it sell more than the original.

If this case I think most of Camerons versions have out sold the originals so they could be called an improvement.

Now if your only talking about how they look compared to the original, well that is to subjective to come to any kind of agreement.[/quote]

Improvement is subjective. The only issue here is that Cameron is perhaps the only puttermaker to ever claim in an interview to have improved over the designs of immortal puttermakers like Mills and Karsten. What does that say about his personality? Boastful? Arrogant? Full-of-himself?

My point isn't about whether it was improved or not. It's more about how this quote gives us a window into the kind of character Cameron has.

[quote name='hodges' post='1852018' date='Jul 30 2009, 10:56 AM']I believe it was TP Mills that was one of the first to mill putterheads. The Mills company enjoy their best years sales wise though during the spalding era when the TP Mills putters were cast. Jay Green has helped David get the Mills company back to their roots of milling putters. He has brought the plumbers neck to the Mills company. They are enjoying a great resurgence. It is nearly the same thing that Nick has done for Bettinardi. They have brought their backgrounds from the Cameron world and are using their experiences to help the companies they represent.


While Scotty didn't invent milling putterheads it was his putters that were the first commercially successful milled models. Cameron milled putters have changed the marketplace. They have opened the door to many other startup companies and improved the market for some of the established puttermakers. There may never have been a milled putter market as we know it if someone didn't succeed. The milled putter market moved mainstream with Titleist signing Cameron to a contract and providing the funding to create a whole new market category. Maybe a few of the new puttermakers do owe him a debt of gratitude for paving the way to where we are today.
just some thoughts[/quote]

There is a valid argument for that point, that perhaps puttermakers owe a debt to Cameron. But again, this is not about whether or not the statement is actually true - it is more about how that statement reflects Cameron as a person. His claims about "paving the way" reeks of arrogance and ego.

Did Michael Jackson ever say he paved the way for a lot of music acts now? I am not quite sure it is something you declare. It is something others say about you, not something you say yourself.

Today's artists who do recorded covers of songs by Elvis and The Beatles - do they ever lay claim to "improving" the original? Sure it may be an improvement since recording techniques have vastly improved over the years and their sound may be more pristine than the original. But do they ever say they improved on Elvis and the Beatles?

For Cameron to say what he said in those interviews - improving on Karsten and Mills, and declaring that he paved the way for puttermakers who should be indebted to him -- it speaks a lot about his personality.

And to me, I don't think that is a very nice personality to have. But again, as the saying goes "your mileage" may vary.

Perhaps Cameron's minions get excited whenever Cameron makes these over-the-top statements. To each his own I guess.

[psd]

[quote name='Tim Delgado' post='1856082' date='Jul 31 2009, 05:09 PM'][quote name='psd' post='1855810' date='Jul 31 2009, 01:59 PM'][quote name='Venno' post='1855782' date='Jul 31 2009, 02:47 PM']PROBABLY YES? So if scotty has a solid block of steel from 1993 and he decides to make a putter tomorrow the head being that it is 100% from a 1993 block of steel can be stamped 1993? Give me a #%@ !(!*& Break! I seriously cant take it anymore, how can you defend this blatant attempt to stamp and predate a putter! If I find 51% of the parts to an original 1963 Rolex and I then manufacture the rest to fit today, it sure as hell aint a 1963 rolex, just because most of it is from 1963.[/quote]

"Probably" yes because I don't consider myself either collector or investor and don't want to speak for anyone but myself.

And what am I supposedly defending? I said the description was vague and the authentication author had plenty of latitude. The write up is not done in absolute terms.

How about something constructive. How about the certificate of authenticity program should be modified to list the dates a complete putter was finished and released in its pictured form?
[/quote]



Wouldn't it be nice if people just admitted when they were wrong??

Good grief. Quit justifying this obvious nonsense, and call it what it is.

If people would just quit making excuses or saying "well I'm not a collector and don't want to speak for anyone....blah, blah, blah". Are you not capable of reading and understanding what you were just shown?

Are you incapable of understanding why it would be inappropriate to back-date a VERY highly-priced "collectable" putter?

Are you in San Fran and a Pelosi supporter too? I really am amazed (and saddened) at what people support and defend these days.

My goodness, what has happened to people's brains these days?

Tim
[/quote]


Once again, you guys need to see everything as black or white, right or wrong.

What am I "wrong" about or defending? Again, the COA process is not all-encompassing. Descriptions are too short or too vague to be taken at face value.

If I was considering spending $10K or whatever the "1996 Twisty" is worth and didn't know the history, i.e. a blend of old and new parts, then I would want to have a serious conversation with the distributor about the piece's history. I would not blindly accept a COA. If I wasn't satisfied, I would walk away.

Is there historical significance to this putter? Is the whole thing obvious nonsense?

- Was the putterhead milled in or before 1996? Yes or no.
- Was the neck twisted in 1996? Yes or no.
- When were the individual stamps and engravings added? Is the timing of when they were done important, i.e. did they need to be added at the time to consider the putterhead to be in its finished form or is it acceptable that they were added as "commemorative" or as one poster called it "backdated".
- Have there been any modifications, besides stamping and/or finishing, to the putterhead or neck since then? Yes or no.

- When was the shaft affixed to the putterhead?
- When was the grip added to the shaft?

Before or after the sale and the issuance of the COA. were any laws broken as a result of the transaction?

[psd]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1861647' date='Aug 3 2009, 02:00 PM']The Distributor is NOT going to know that information. Their "job" is to sell sell sell. That is how they make money and that is why they are distributors. The COA and Registry program is the place that should have this information. It is suppose to document the putter. Instead it is nothing more than a mechanism that has been set up and designed to facilitate new business for the Custom Shop and the Studio. You want an authentic putter you have to send it to us to add the grip, add the shaft, apply the finish, etc.

The problem is that because so many of the current Cameron Collectors just do not know anything about the history of Cameron, the putters, or really anything other than head covers and pivot tools, you have people that actually believe that because the putter is stamped 1996 it was made in 1996. Because the putter was "made" in "1996" and has a twisty neck it now is being discussed as the original or very first twisty. I guess because this putter also has JAT stamped on it and it was probable another 3 years before another putter had that stamped on it or anyone ever made reference to JAT, this putter is also the first use of JAT. These things, [b]if[/b] they were true, would add significantly to the "value" of the putter.

It is these types (1996 Twisty; 1 of 5 Mini; etc.) of deceptive and irresponsible actions that make so many people shake their head at the way Cameron and his boys market their products. Heck, after this thread started there were guys on TCC actually asking if it was true that Bettinardi milled all of the Cameron putters from around late 1992 starting with the end of the Cameron Mizuno putters up to and including the 1997 Cameron Titleist putters. How sad is it that many of those that are members of Club Cameron and invest thousands of dollars in Cameron stuff have no clue about the making of the putters that Cameron made his name with and the site that is dedicated to Cameron Collectors sill not allow these guys to even talk about it.

Fortunately this site allows some discussion of the other side of the story. If people were not exposed to these discussions on sites like this there would be no place for them to learn the history of Cameron instead of the marketing spin and propaganda being put forth by Cameron's web site, his distributors and his biggest supporters.[/quote]

Thanks for that foregaism. I agree that once you get at least two generations (if not one) removed from the original owner of a piece, things can get cloudy. It all depends on the seller's motives.

My perspective is limited. I see Scotty Cameron trying to support a niche (albeit a high priced one) in the broader putter collecting hobby, in the absence of an independent organization that would ordinarily have a multi-brand purview. By definition that is a conflict of interest, but I'm a glass half-full kind of guy here because I think the program can be more helpful than harmful. Mr. Cameron is a businessman first and foremost and I'm not about to change anyone else's opinion of him.

[hodges]

[quote name='jick' post='1859299' date='Aug 2 2009, 12:48 PM'][quote name='hodges' post='1852018' date='Jul 30 2009, 10:56 AM'][quote name='jick' post='1843625' date='Jul 26 2009, 02:34 AM']When Cameron gives over-the-top ego-centric statements such as him improving on Karsten and Mills, or that he is paving the way to , or that his stainless steel putters are made from recycled forks and knives, or that he feels the jealousy of many, or that he is on the verge of a discovery that will alter the future of putting itself --- then those can be attributed to Cameron and reflect on his person.[/quote]

Jick I get the feeling you don't think that Cameron's versions of the original Karsten and Mills models are improvements.
Has anybody improved these designs in your mind?

Improvement to an original design can be measured one way by if it becomes a commerical success. Does it sell more than the original.

If this case I think most of Camerons versions have out sold the originals so they could be called an improvement.

Now if your only talking about how they look compared to the original, well that is to subjective to come to any kind of agreement.[/quote]

Improvement is subjective. The only issue here is that Cameron is perhaps the only puttermaker to ever claim in an interview to have improved over the designs of immortal puttermakers like Mills and Karsten. What does that say about his personality? Boastful? Arrogant? Full-of-himself?

My point isn't about whether it was improved or not. It's more about how this quote gives us a window into the kind of character Cameron has.

[quote name='hodges' post='1852018' date='Jul 30 2009, 10:56 AM']I believe it was TP Mills that was one of the first to mill putterheads. The Mills company enjoy their best years sales wise though during the spalding era when the TP Mills putters were cast. Jay Green has helped David get the Mills company back to their roots of milling putters. He has brought the plumbers neck to the Mills company. They are enjoying a great resurgence. It is nearly the same thing that Nick has done for Bettinardi. They have brought their backgrounds from the Cameron world and are using their experiences to help the companies they represent.


While Scotty didn't invent milling putterheads it was his putters that were the first commercially successful milled models. Cameron milled putters have changed the marketplace. They have opened the door to many other startup companies and improved the market for some of the established puttermakers. There may never have been a milled putter market as we know it if someone didn't succeed. The milled putter market moved mainstream with Titleist signing Cameron to a contract and providing the funding to create a whole new market category. Maybe a few of the new puttermakers do owe him a debt of gratitude for paving the way to where we are today.
just some thoughts[/quote]

There is a valid argument for that point, that perhaps puttermakers owe a debt to Cameron. But again, this is not about whether or not the statement is actually true - it is more about how that statement reflects Cameron as a person. His claims about "paving the way" reeks of arrogance and ego.

Did Michael Jackson ever say he paved the way for a lot of music acts now? I am not quite sure it is something you declare. It is something others say about you, not something you say yourself.

Today's artists who do recorded covers of songs by Elvis and The Beatles - do they ever lay claim to "improving" the original? Sure it may be an improvement since recording techniques have vastly improved over the years and their sound may be more pristine than the original. But do they ever say they improved on Elvis and the Beatles?

For Cameron to say what he said in those interviews - improving on Karsten and Mills, and declaring that he paved the way for puttermakers who should be indebted to him -- it speaks a lot about his personality.

And to me, I don't think that is a very nice personality to have. But again, as the saying goes "your mileage" may vary.

Perhaps Cameron's minions get excited whenever Cameron makes these over-the-top statements. To each his own I guess.
[/quote]

Some people think that Tiger "reeks of arrogance and ego" but he is pretty good at what he does.

[xxio]

AFAIK Tiger has never said he "is better than Jack" or "more charismatic than Arnie" or that "he can feel the jealousy of Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els".

In public or in print anyway.

[biscuity]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1861647' date='Aug 3 2009, 11:00 AM']Heck, after this thread started there were guys on TCC actually asking if it was true that Bettinardi milled all of the Cameron putters from around late 1992 starting with the end of the Cameron Mizuno putters up to and including the 1997 Cameron Titleist putters. How sad is it that many of those that are members of Club Cameron and invest thousands of dollars in Cameron stuff have no clue about the making of the putters that Cameron made his name with and the site that is dedicated to Cameron Collectors sill not allow these guys to even talk about it.[/quote]

Do you think all manufacturers should disclose their vendors when they outsource products?

[biscuity]

[quote name='xxio' post='1862409' date='Aug 3 2009, 04:59 PM']AFAIK Tiger has never said he "is better than Jack" or "more charismatic than Arnie" or that "he can feel the jealousy of Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els".

In public or in print anyway.[/quote]


I think the story of Tiger posting a list of Jack's major wins on his wall is fairly well known. His goal is to improve on Jack's record.

[goinglow72]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1862498' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:38 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1861647' date='Aug 3 2009, 11:00 AM']Heck, after this thread started there were guys on TCC actually asking if it was true that Bettinardi milled all of the Cameron putters from around late 1992 starting with the end of the Cameron Mizuno putters up to and including the 1997 Cameron Titleist putters. How sad is it that many of those that are members of Club Cameron and invest thousands of dollars in Cameron stuff have no clue about the making of the putters that Cameron made his name with and the site that is dedicated to Cameron Collectors sill not allow these guys to even talk about it.[/quote]

Do you think all manufacturers should disclose their vendors when they outsource products?
[/quote]

There is a difference between "disclosing" and "[b]misleading[/b]" <------(which he does so well)

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1862505' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:40 PM'][quote name='xxio' post='1862409' date='Aug 3 2009, 04:59 PM']AFAIK Tiger has never said he "is better than Jack" or "more charismatic than Arnie" or that "he can feel the jealousy of Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els".

In public or in print anyway.[/quote]


I think the story of Tiger posting a list of Jack's major wins on his wall is fairly well known. His goal is to improve on Jack's record.
[/quote]
That is hardly saying he is better than Jack.

[biscuity]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1862509' date='Aug 3 2009, 05:43 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1862505' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:40 PM'][quote name='xxio' post='1862409' date='Aug 3 2009, 04:59 PM']AFAIK Tiger has never said he "is better than Jack" or "more charismatic than Arnie" or that "he can feel the jealousy of Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els".

In public or in print anyway.[/quote]


I think the story of Tiger posting a list of Jack's major wins on his wall is fairly well known. His goal is to improve on Jack's record.
[/quote]
That is hardly saying he is better than Jack.

[/quote]

Scotty never said he was better than Solheim or Mills, only that his goal is to improve on their designs.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='goinglow72' post='1862508' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:43 PM']There is a difference between "disclosing" and "[b]misleading[/b]" <------(which he does so well)[/quote]


The only reason anyone gives a crap is because his former machinist now makes putters. If Bettinardi didn't make his own, nobody would give a flip where SC's are milled just as long as it's in the US. Is it interesting Bettinardi mills in house? Of course, probably saves a lot of headaches. But let's get real....if you press the CNC button in Carlsbad, CA or somewhere else, what is the difference? Nothing magical happens whether it's done 10 ft or 10 states away.

[goinglow72]

[quote name='CPSOX' post='1862546' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:59 PM'][quote name='goinglow72' post='1862508' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:43 PM']There is a difference between "disclosing" and "[b]misleading[/b]" <------(which he does so well)[/quote]


The only reason anyone gives a crap is because his former machinist now makes putters. If Bettinardi didn't make his own, nobody would give a flip where SC's are milled just as long as it's in the US. Is it interesting Bettinardi mills in house? Of course, probably saves a lot of headaches. But let's get real....if you press the CNC button in Carlsbad, CA or somewhere else, what is the difference? Nothing magical happens whether it's done 10 ft or [b]10 states away[/b].


[/quote]

Or 10 countries? Again, you guys are not getting the point (actually you probably do...you just choose to agrue his side till your out of breath). The point isn't really where the friggin putters are made, it's the fact that he makes his little videos that mislead people to think that he mills his putters and makes his t-shirts... If it's NOT a big deal where they are made....why does Cameron try to mislead everyone?

< I can't wait to hear these excuses...so lets hear them>

[biscuity]

[quote name='CPSOX' post='1862546' date='Aug 3 2009, 05:59 PM'][quote name='goinglow72' post='1862508' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:43 PM']There is a difference between "disclosing" and "[b]misleading[/b]" <------(which he does so well)[/quote]


The only reason anyone gives a crap is because his former machinist now makes putters. If Bettinardi didn't make his own, nobody would give a flip where SC's are milled just as long as it's in the US. Is it interesting Bettinardi mills in house? Of course, probably saves a lot of headaches. But let's get real....if you press the CNC button in Carlsbad, CA or somewhere else, what is the difference? Nothing magical happens whether it's done 10 ft or 10 states away.


[/quote]

Exactly. How many people care who his vendor is for the current Studio Select line? Who cares which vendors Ping uses in China & Thailand for their Redwood line? Who cares which Chinese vendor Rife used to make the putter that Fred Funk used to win the US Senior Open?

[CPSOX]

[quote name='goinglow72' post='1862560' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:08 PM'][quote name='CPSOX' post='1862546' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:59 PM'][quote name='goinglow72' post='1862508' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:43 PM']There is a difference between "disclosing" and "[b]misleading[/b]" <------(which he does so well)[/quote]


The only reason anyone gives a crap is because his former machinist now makes putters. If Bettinardi didn't make his own, nobody would give a flip where SC's are milled just as long as it's in the US. Is it interesting Bettinardi mills in house? Of course, probably saves a lot of headaches. But let's get real....if you press the CNC button in Carlsbad, CA or somewhere else, what is the difference? Nothing magical happens whether it's done 10 ft or [b]10 states away[/b].


[/quote]

Or 10 countries? Again, you guys are not getting the point (actually you probably do...you just choose to agrue his side till your out of breath). The point isn't really where the friggin putters are made, it's the fact that he makes hislittle videos that mislead people to think that he mills his putters and makes his t-shirts...haha If it's NOT a big deal....why does Cameron try to mislead everyone?

< I can't wait to hear these excuses...so lets hear them>
[/quote]

Lol....and the Keebler Elves make cookies.

I don't think it's a stretch to believe most people realize that Scotty Cameron isn't making t-shirts. Unless one of Acushnet's key employees is expected to throw a little labor detail in every once in awhile.

Does anyone think Bob is loading billets of stainless into his own CNC's? He has videos of him handling material in his shop after all.

[biscuity]

[quote name='goinglow72' post='1862560' date='Aug 3 2009, 06:08 PM'][quote name='CPSOX' post='1862546' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:59 PM'][quote name='goinglow72' post='1862508' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:43 PM']There is a difference between "disclosing" and "[b]misleading[/b]" <------(which he does so well)[/quote]


The only reason anyone gives a crap is because his former machinist now makes putters. If Bettinardi didn't make his own, nobody would give a flip where SC's are milled just as long as it's in the US. Is it interesting Bettinardi mills in house? Of course, probably saves a lot of headaches. But let's get real....if you press the CNC button in Carlsbad, CA or somewhere else, what is the difference? Nothing magical happens whether it's done 10 ft or [b]10 states away[/b].


[/quote]

Or 10 countries? Again, you guys are not getting the point (actually you probably do...you just choose to agrue his side till your out of breath). The point isn't really where the friggin putters are made, it's the fact that he makes his little videos that mislead people to think that he mills his putters and makes his t-shirts... If it's NOT a big deal....why does Cameron try to mislead everyone?

< I can't wait to hear these excuses...so lets hear them>
[/quote]

That's your interpretation of his videos. I saw the same videos and didn't come to the conclusion that he had a T-Shirt screenprinting production line in his "Putter Studio". I saw the same video and didn't get the impression that he had dozens of CNC machines cranking out 200,000 putters per year inside his "Putter Studio". He's out visiting his vendors in those videos, showing what they do, showing that he cares about the quality of his products.

And if his goal was to mislead the public he wouldn't say in his [url="http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080327/FREE/851820987"]interviews [/url]the Putter Studio is a place where only 19 people work, it's not a huge manufacturing plant. He wouldn't admit that his OTR putters are made 2 miles from the Putter Studio.

[goinglow72]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1862608' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:25 PM'][quote name='goinglow72' post='1862560' date='Aug 3 2009, 06:08 PM'][quote name='CPSOX' post='1862546' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:59 PM'][quote name='goinglow72' post='1862508' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:43 PM']There is a difference between "disclosing" and "[b]misleading[/b]" <------(which he does so well)[/quote]


The only reason anyone gives a crap is because his former machinist now makes putters. If Bettinardi didn't make his own, nobody would give a flip where SC's are milled just as long as it's in the US. Is it interesting Bettinardi mills in house? Of course, probably saves a lot of headaches. But let's get real....if you press the CNC button in Carlsbad, CA or somewhere else, what is the difference? Nothing magical happens whether it's done 10 ft or [b]10 states away[/b].


[/quote]

Or 10 countries? Again, you guys are not getting the point (actually you probably do...you just choose to agrue his side till your out of breath). The point isn't really where the friggin putters are made, it's the fact that he makes his little videos that mislead people to think that he mills his putters and makes his t-shirts... If it's NOT a big deal....why does Cameron try to mislead everyone?

< I can't wait to hear these excuses...so lets hear them>
[/quote]

That's your interpretation of his videos. I saw the same videos and didn't come to the conclusion that he had a T-Shirt screenprinting production line in his "Putter Studio". I saw the same video and didn't get the impression that he had dozens of CNC machines cranking out 200,000 putters per year inside his "Putter Studio". He's out visiting his vendors in those videos, showing what they do, showing that he cares about the quality of his products.

And if his goal was to mislead the public he wouldn't say in his [url="http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080327/FREE/851820987"]interviews [/url]the Putter Studio is a place where only 19 people work, it's not a huge manufacturing plant. He wouldn't admit that his OTR putters are made 2 miles from the Putter Studio.
[/quote]


Please provide just "one" link to any part of those videos where he referenced those as to being his "VENDORS"

[b]"You wanna see more....COME ON IN" hahaha <with the door painted "[u]SCOTTY CAMERON - PUTTER STUDIO[/u]">[/b]

[xxio]

In his mind SC has surpassed the originals and "can feel the jealousy". If you don't mind that the guy is an ego maniac, looks down at others and think they owe him something, good for you. I'd rather have a putter made by a puttermaker who relies on the quality of his product and the goodwill of his name and relationships.

TW chasing 18. That is a goal he has set. We don't know what he will say if and when he beats that record but I hardly think he will say for himself "I'm better than Jack". He will have the class to have others say it for him.

[Pondy]

I can see pretty clearly (as in 'night and day') the difference between the two. And I think it is abundantly clear that the SC videos are representing Scotty in a hands on mode, but the evidence presented in this post shows otherwise. The apologists are trying to compare Cameron's actions and statements "Improving on designs, I feel their jealousy, etc.", to Tiger chasing Jack, and such. It's a pretty weak argument, IMO. Please don't try and cloud the issue with the BS about shirt manufacturing... The thread is about putters and the basic integrity of the SC brand.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall of the other site when the loyalists learned that SC doesn't even machine his own product. Be afraid loyalists, be very afraid, lol....

tw, I read the link on jick's post 'The Fall of Cameron Empire' (post #1666). A pretty good read there.

"Look, the Emperor has no clothes"

[biscuity]

[quote name='xxio' post='1862619' date='Aug 3 2009, 06:31 PM']In his mind SC has surpassed the originals and "can feel the jealousy". If you don't mind that the guy is an ego maniac, looks down at others and think they owe him something, good for you. I'd rather have a putter made by a puttermaker who relies on the quality of his product and the goodwill of his name and relationships.

TW chasing 18. That is a goal he has set. We don't know what he will say if and when he beats that record but I hardly think he will say for himself "I'm better than Jack". He will have the class to have others say it for him.[/quote]


Scotty has never said that he is "Better" than Solheim or Mills.

"My idea was to pick up where Mills and Solheim left off, always keeping their standards of craftsmanship and innovation," he says. "Have I borrowed from them? You'd better believe it. My whole idea was to improve on their work."

[biscuity]

[quote name='Pondude' post='1862689' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:01 PM']I'd love to be a fly on the wall of the other site when the loyalists learned that SC doesn't even machine his own product. Be afraid loyalists, be very afraid, lol....[/quote]

Contrary to what you read here, a lot of people know that many manufacturers outsource products. Scotty is not hiding that. He says it again here in a [url="http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1025756/2/index.htm"]Sports Illustrated[/url] article:

"These days Cameron says he spends half his time designing, budgeting for and batch-checking putters that are manufactured at three small plants by 90 employees within a mile of the studio and sold to golf shops all over the world. The rest of his time is devoted to making putters for touring pros."

Why would he say that in one of the most popular magazines in the US if he was trying to hide it?

[dwboston]

[quote name='CPSOX' post='1862579' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:14 PM']Does anyone think Bob is loading billets of stainless into his own CNC's? He has videos of him handling material in his shop after all.[/quote]

Way to move the goalposts. At least it's actually Bettinardi's shop, with his machines. He's not misleading someone to believe that a vendor's facility is his "putter studio". It's funny to take a shot at Bettinardi about his shop when he's pretty well known for quality control and attention to detail on both his OTR and custom putters. Do you think Bettinardi would let putters with his name on them out the door with mis-aligned grips or incorrect head weights? We know that SC has.

No one cares that SC outsources production of OTR putters or T-shirts. It's the intentionally misleading videos and marketing propaganda that rub people the wrong way. Of course, you know that's the case, but that's why you try to change the subject.

There's an expression I learned in the Army that seems to fit the SC fanatics pretty well: "Admit nothing, deny everything, and immediately make counter-accusations." Sound familiar?

[CPSOX]

[quote name='Pondude' post='1862689' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:01 PM']I'd love to be a fly on the wall of the other site when the loyalists learned that SC doesn't even machine his own product. Be afraid loyalists, be very afraid, lol....[/quote]

The "other" site you speak of didn't exist when people found out that he outsources. It was well over a decade ago when the horse left the barn. Nobody there gives a darn....it's a machine doing the work. The notion that "loyalists" think he has a bunch of CNC's in his Studio in CA is a fairy tale.

[hodges]

so after all this it seems to come down to:
Cameron has made and contracted to be made lots of putters, maybe more than a million. There is a very small percentage that have errors, have had their history lost or have a little mystery to them.
Some people find these putters a reason to despise Cameron, some people don't
Some people think that Cameron owes the world an accurate historical account of all his putters and business practices. It will never happen and it drives some people crazy. So they choose to buy and collect other putter makers putters and try to convince the world that Cameron is a bad person so you shouldn't buy anything Cameron.
Then there are the fans and salesmen's for Bettinardi who would like credit for part of Cameron's success because Bob milled the original Cameron putters. Bob did what he was contracted to do, that is acknowledge by all but is it not enough for some.
So have I left anything out?

[CPSOX]

[quote name='dwboston' post='1862716' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:13 PM'][quote name='CPSOX' post='1862579' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:14 PM']Does anyone think Bob is loading billets of stainless into his own CNC's? He has videos of him handling material in his shop after all.[/quote]

Way to move the goalposts. At least it's actually Bettinardi's shop, with his machines. He's not misleading someone to believe that a vendor's facility is his "putter studio". It's funny to take a shot at Bettinardi about his shop when he's pretty well known for quality control and attention to detail on both his OTR and custom putters. Do you think Bettinardi would let putters with his name on them out the door with mis-aligned grips or incorrect head weights? We know that SC has.

No one cares that SC outsources production of OTR putters or T-shirts. It's the intentionally misleading videos and marketing propaganda that rub people the wrong way. Of course, you know that's the case, but that's why you try to change the subject.

There's an expression I learned in the Army that seems to fit the SC fanatics pretty well: "Admit nothing, deny everything, and immediately make counter-accusations." Sound familiar?
[/quote]

Not moving the goal posts, just stating the obvious. I've never given a sh*t where the putters are made, but find the apparent distress over it amusing.

You can find dozens of CEO's walking through manufacturing plants talking about their products like they are the ones hand making them. I just didn't realize so many took it so literally. So I apologize to all those who thought Scotty put the shaft band on your Newport. He didn't.

Propaganda? Sheesh....

[Pondy]

[quote]The "other" site you speak of didn't exist when people found out that he outsources. It was well over a decade ago when the horse left the barn. Nobody there gives a darn....it's a machine doing the work. The notion that "loyalists" think he has a bunch of CNC's in his Studio in CA is a fairy tale.[/quote]

My apology, CPSOX. I must have mixed up the chronology on one of the posts a few pages back. I had understood that to be a recent revelation. My apology and thanks for setting me straight.

[CPSOX]

[quote name='Pondude' post='1862768' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:38 PM'][quote]The "other" site you speak of didn't exist when people found out that he outsources. It was well over a decade ago when the horse left the barn. Nobody there gives a darn....it's a machine doing the work. The notion that "loyalists" think he has a bunch of CNC's in his Studio in CA is a fairy tale.[/quote]

My apology, CPSOX. I must have mixed up the chronology on one of the posts a few pages back. I had understood that to be a recent revelation. My apology and thanks for setting me straight.
[/quote]


No worries, friend! That's not to say that people new to Camerons don't jump to conclusions and assume the "Studio" doesn't have a bunch of CNC's.....that does happen, often in fact. But I have NEVER once seen anyone (who would know) post anywhere that they are made in his Carlsbad Studio. As Biscuit has posted, Scotty himself has said numerous times that he outsources to US companies. If the $xxx,xxx.xx CNC machine is under his roof or down the street....IMO, pure semantics. Others, obviously, may argue differently. I'm more impressed by the process of designing the putter, not by who pushed the button to turn the CNC on.

He does, however, have manual milling machines that he does PERSONALLY operate, in his Studio. His skill behind one of those is undeniable.

[dwboston]

[quote name='CPSOX' post='1862744' date='Aug 3 2009, 10:29 PM'][quote name='dwboston' post='1862716' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:13 PM'][quote name='CPSOX' post='1862579' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:14 PM']Does anyone think Bob is loading billets of stainless into his own CNC's? He has videos of him handling material in his shop after all.[/quote]

Way to move the goalposts. At least it's actually Bettinardi's shop, with his machines. He's not misleading someone to believe that a vendor's facility is his "putter studio". It's funny to take a shot at Bettinardi about his shop when he's pretty well known for quality control and attention to detail on both his OTR and custom putters. Do you think Bettinardi would let putters with his name on them out the door with mis-aligned grips or incorrect head weights? We know that SC has.

No one cares that SC outsources production of OTR putters or T-shirts. It's the intentionally misleading videos and marketing propaganda that rub people the wrong way. Of course, you know that's the case, but that's why you try to change the subject.

There's an expression I learned in the Army that seems to fit the SC fanatics pretty well: "Admit nothing, deny everything, and immediately make counter-accusations." Sound familiar?
[/quote]

You can find dozens of CEO's walking through manufacturing plants talking about their products like they are the ones hand making them. I just didn't realize so many took it so literally. So I apologize to all those who thought Scotty put the shaft band on your Newport. He didn't.

Propaganda? Sheesh....
[/quote]

We're not talking about "dozens of CEO's". We're talking about one "master putter designer" with a massive ego who really wants people to believe that a third-party manufacturer is the "Scotty Cameron Putter Studio".

Again, no one really cares when companies outsource production, so why can't Cameron admit it? Why the elaborate fiction that he's producing putters in his "Studio"? It's the obfuscation that bothers people, not the actual practice. If you can't see that then you're being willfully obtuse.

[biscuity]

[quote name='dwboston' post='1862794' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:50 PM']We're not talking about "dozens of CEO's". We're talking about one "master putter designer" with a massive ego who really wants people to believe that a third-party manufacturer is the "Scotty Cameron Putter Studio".

Again, no one really cares when companies outsource production, so why can't Cameron admit it? Why the elaborate fiction that he's producing putters in his "Studio"? It's the obfuscation that bothers people, not the actual practice. If you can't see that then you're being willfully obtuse.[/quote]

In case you missed it, here is where Scotty is quoted in the Autoweek article that the putters are not made in the Putter Studio:

[b]"The head, the main performance part, is made right here, two miles away," Cameron said of the Titleist manufacturing facility, which employs 800 people. "The shaft is made in Mississippi, the grip in North Carolina. The cover is made in Arizona[/b][b]."[/b]

When he says "made right here" I take that as "Made in America" because that's one of the main points of the article. He's not saying "made right here in the Putter Studio" because that would directly contradict the "two miles away" comment in the same sentence. That is a newer article than the one where he says 3 plants, so I'll assume that they consolodated their manufacturing operations into one large plant recently.

It is no hidden secret that Scotty Cameron uses vendors to produce his products. He designs them and uses vendors who produce them to his specifications. I've never seen a major manufacturer who lists all of the vendors for their products. If they did it would be a huge and ever-changing list because it is common to use multiple vendors for the same product.

Reference: [url="http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080327/FREE/851820987"]http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti.../FREE/851820987[/url]