Rules and 'Misplaced Tee Markers'

[DaveLeeNC]

Proceeding in a Casual Round of Golf

I was playing a casual round with friends the other day (Skins with no carry-overs). There was a tournament event scheduled to start not terribly long after our tee time. On most of the holes on the back 9 the tee markers (at least the Blues and the Whites) had been 'set aside' (but were still on the ground in the vicinity of the teeing areas) and the 'Event Tee Markers' were set out. The event seemed to be playing from some combination of the Blue and White Tees.

Not only was it clear that the usual tee markers had been 'set aside', in most of the cases it would have been impossible to hit a ball from between them (they were touching each other).

We certainly didn't worry about it - we just played from the tee where the 'starting yardage disk' was and moved on. But I got to wondering about what the rules say.

Decision 11-4b/3 would have us 'contacting the committee' to have them replaced unless there was obvious evidence of exactly where the tee markers had been placed or had been intended to be placed. Otherwise a DQ.

It isn't like we ignore the rules, but there are limits to (in our perspective) a trade-off between the rules and common sense. So we just finished the round using the starting yardage disks as our guide (and posted).

But then I was thinking. Would anyone else (in a casual round) do otherwise? If so, what? The only other options that I see are

1) To play from the 'Event Markers', (where the Blue and White tees would become the same)

2) Call the Pro Shop and insist that they put the markers back

But maybe there are other (possibly even reasonable) courses of action.

dave

[Sawgrass]

Here is a non-official response if ever I wrote one: I'd have done exactly as you did. Then I'd have gone back to the pro shop and told them that their inappropriate preparation for the tournament which followed my group distroyed the enjoyment of my round for me. Then I'd ask if they felt it appropriate to compensate me in some way.

[OpusX20]

I would do the same thing. Sometimes I would play from the appropriate yardage plate and other times I might go equidistant from where the markers lay assuming they were just tossed to the side of the tee box for mowing or something like that.

[skizix]

I think I would've just used the event markers (escpecially since they weren't at the tips). Unless there was some temporary local rule posted, I think that's as close to legit as you could get. Otherwise, being a casual round, seems fine what you did, or...just stick some tees in the ground.

A course I play around here pulls tee markers altogether all winter, so as to spread out wear and tear on the tees (makes no sense, since they could just move them every day, but that's what they told me). I just put the ball down and shoot (only a few holes have distance marked at the tee) -- not ideal, but it never occurred to me to biitch out the course and demand a refund. Seems a wee bit uptight, perhaps!

[InTheHole]

Possibly a third option would be to ask the tournament people, who should have been readily available, if the tournament markers replaced a particular color tee (one tournament I play in uses tournament markers, but they just replace the regular course white tees).

But, if you had no "official" tee marker, I would not have counted the round for handicap purposes. At the end of the round I would have mentioned it to someone in the pro shop and told them you couldn't count your round - good chance they'll do something for you.

[DaveLeeNC]

As a general comment here - this is definitely one that I will not be complaining about.

Play on the courses at our club is split between "member play" and "resort play" (where this event would have fallen into the 'resort play' category). Our club is pretty good at making unused 'resort play' tee times available to members - and this isn't something that they are compelled to do. It is done for our (member) convenience and in this case they freed up 5-10 tee times before the event (even though the course was not a "member course" on that day).

So the one thing that I won't do is complain about the fact they some tee markers were not set up.

dave

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='skizix' post='2031467' date='Oct 28 2009, 03:42 PM']. . . I just put the ball down and shoot (only a few holes have distance marked at the tee) -- not ideal, but it never occurred to me to biitch out the course and demand a refund. Seems a wee bit uptight, perhaps![/quote]

I can certainly see why you might call me "a wee bit uptight." And I'm fine with that. And maybe you're right -- but I don't really think so.

I'll defend myself by saying that every time I play golf, even when I start in the rain or strong wind, I'm trying to shoot the low round of my life, or at least contribute to lowering my handicap to the lowest level of my life. It's a great part of the fun of playing golf for me. If sometime during the round I encounter a condition from which I won't be able to complete an "official round" as per the rules of golf, it takes a great deal of the fun out of things for me. So I would have wasted a good deal of time and a small bit of money just because someone couldn't wait to pick up the tee markers I was using.

[skizix]

Curious as to why some feel this round should not be counted for handicap. Are we talking strictly a technicality for not heeding Rules regarding tee markers to the letter?

Other than that, as far as this round being [i]statistically [/i]bunk...I think it's actually ok. At my home course at least (and everywhere I've ever played repeatedly), they move the tee markers all the time, sometimes from the back of one teeing ground to the front of the next one back (I'd say up to 20+ yds.), etc. So no matter what, you get some noise injected into your handicap vs. raw score vs. course slope or whatever. But over the course of many rounds, surely it comes out in the wash.

So as long as you know the course somewhat, i.e. where the tees you normally shoot from are usually located, guestimating your tee position, or sticking a couple of tees in the ground (to make a level playing field, since you've got skins on the line) seems like it should result in a completely legit (statistically, if not technically per Rules) round. Since breaking this particular rule, in this particular case, if done with good intentions, should not affect your score...seems like a handi-capable (haha) round to me.

[i]Mathematically [/i]speaking, it seems like always teeing off at the distance plaques on the tee would be the purest approach, since that's what the course slope is presumably based off of -- but of course, that would often be a Rules violation. But in any case, what about pin position, weather conditions, whether your shot was deflected off a goose who'd landed after you swung, etc. No two rounds are ever the same, so what's the difference (to your score/handicap) if your tee shot is a tiny bit short or long -- which as I've pointed out, is normally the case anyhow (vs. slope rating).

Not trying to dis others' opinions, but wondering on attitudes about what a legit round (handicap-wise) hinges upon.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='skizix' post='2031630' date='Oct 28 2009, 04:38 PM']Curious as to why some feel this round should not be counted for handicap. Are we talking strictly a technicality for not heeding Rules regarding tee markers to the letter?

Other than that, as far as this round being [i]statistically [/i]bunk...I think it's actually ok. At my home course at least (and everywhere I've ever played repeatedly), they move the tee markers all the time, sometimes from the back of one teeing ground to the front of the next one back (I'd say up to 20+ yds.), etc. So no matter what, you get some noise injected into your handicap vs. raw score vs. course slope or whatever. But over the course of many rounds, surely it comes out in the wash.

So as long as you know the course somewhat, i.e. where the tees you normally shoot from are usually located, guestimating your tee position, or sticking a couple of tees in the ground (to make a level playing field, since you've got skins on the line) seems like it should result in a completely legit (statistically, if not technically per Rules) round. Since breaking this particular rule, in this particular case, if done with good intentions, should not affect your score...seems like a handi-capable (haha) round to me.

[i]Mathematically [/i]speaking, it seems like always teeing off at the distance plaques on the tee would be the purest approach, since that's what the course slope is presumably based off of -- but of course, that would often be a Rules violation. But in any case, what about pin position, weather conditions, whether your shot was deflected off a goose who'd landed after you swung, etc. No two rounds are ever the same, so what's the difference (to your score/handicap) if your tee shot is a tiny bit short or long -- which as I've pointed out, is normally the case anyhow (vs. slope rating).

Not trying to dis others' opinions, but wondering on attitudes about what a legit round (handicap-wise) hinges upon.[/quote]

I think you make several good points skizix. It's why I would have played from the yardage markers, whereby I wouldn't be using my preference for tee position, but rather some form of unbiased "official" position. And I would have put my score in for handicap purposes too. But if I had played particularly well, or maybe even my best, it would always have bothered me that I hadn't played by the strict rules of tournament golf. And this would have happened because someone on the staff didn't have as much respect for the rules as I do -- which isn't all that great from my perspective.

[highergr0und]

So then, what about rounds where the course puts tee markers in different spots making the course easier or harder thus deviating from the official spots from where the course was rated from? That could inflate or deflate your handicap making the golfing world think you're better or worse than you are and lead to accusations of sandbagging or whining about your flight during a tourney.

Seriously.... I think you made a fine decision and the golfing gods will not strike you down.

Oops... skizikx beat me to it. Oh well.

[OpusX20]

I think you would have a hard time arguing that you should not post a score because a set of tee markers were missing on a hole (or a few holes). The handicap system allows you to post scores when you don't complete or even play certain holes. Given that type of latitude, I would think you would be required to post a score in this instance. But, I am certainly not a GHIN expert.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='highergr0und' post='2031694' date='Oct 28 2009, 05:02 PM']So then, what about rounds where the course puts tee markers in different spots making the course easier or harder thus deviating from the official spots from where the course was rated from? That could inflate or deflate your handicap making the golfing world think you're better or worse than you are and lead to accusations of sandbagging or whining about your flight during a tourney.

Seriously.... I think you made a fine decision and the golfing gods will not strike you down.

Oops... skizikx beat me to it. Oh well.[/quote]

To me, the whole issue is whether you are playing from the specified area you are supposed to play from, or one of your own choosing. I believe that the slope and rating accept that the tee markers will change from day to day. So that doesn't matter at all to me. As long as the golfer himself/herself isn't making a decision to benefit themselves, I agree that all should be good with the golf gods. But I would still be bothered by the fact that using the yardage markers isn't officially sanctioned. This could easily be repaired if the USGA made a rule stating that if there are no tee markers present, one could use a line drawn from the yardage marker perpendicular to the hole as a tee identifier in a pinch. I'd be in favor of that, and I can't see any downside from their doing so. But I still think it's not too much to ask for a course to have tee markers in place.

[highergr0und]

I looked it up just for fun... Looks like they would be disqualified in a tourney for decision 11-4b/3. They are required to look for where the tees were (indentations, marks of paint, etc) and play from there. Maybe KevCarter will give us the rundown. He's awesome with the rules.

[Newby]

The RoG cover all types of play if the players are wishing or required (tournament/competition) to play by the Rules.

However, I believe the USGA handicapping system (and others based on it) are very tolerant of rules breaches. Score may/should be returned in the circumstances described..

But check with the Manual

[url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Handicap-Manual/"]http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-Sy...andicap-Manual/[/url]

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' post='2031655' date='Oct 28 2009, 04:48 PM'][quote name='skizix' post='2031630' date='Oct 28 2009, 04:38 PM']Curious as to why some feel this round should not be counted for handicap. Are we talking strictly a technicality for not heeding Rules regarding tee markers to the letter?

Other than that, as far as this round being [i]statistically [/i]bunk...I think it's actually ok. At my home course at least (and everywhere I've ever played repeatedly), they move the tee markers all the time, sometimes from the back of one teeing ground to the front of the next one back (I'd say up to 20+ yds.), etc. So no matter what, you get some noise injected into your handicap vs. raw score vs. course slope or whatever. But over the course of many rounds, surely it comes out in the wash.

So as long as you know the course somewhat, i.e. where the tees you normally shoot from are usually located, guestimating your tee position, or sticking a couple of tees in the ground (to make a level playing field, since you've got skins on the line) seems like it should result in a completely legit (statistically, if not technically per Rules) round. Since breaking this particular rule, in this particular case, if done with good intentions, should not affect your score...seems like a handi-capable (haha) round to me.

[i]Mathematically [/i]speaking, it seems like always teeing off at the distance plaques on the tee would be the purest approach, since that's what the course slope is presumably based off of -- but of course, that would often be a Rules violation. But in any case, what about pin position, weather conditions, whether your shot was deflected off a goose who'd landed after you swung, etc. No two rounds are ever the same, so what's the difference (to your score/handicap) if your tee shot is a tiny bit short or long -- which as I've pointed out, is normally the case anyhow (vs. slope rating).

Not trying to dis others' opinions, but wondering on attitudes about what a legit round (handicap-wise) hinges upon.[/quote]

I think you make several good points skizix. It's why I would have played from the yardage markers, whereby I wouldn't be using my preference for tee position, but rather some form of unbiased "official" position. And I would have put my score in for handicap purposes too. But if I had played particularly well, or maybe even my best, it would always have bothered me that I hadn't played by the strict rules of tournament golf. And this would have happened because someone on the staff didn't have as much respect for the rules as I do -- which isn't all that great from my perspective.
[/quote]

In this case it would have been a "pretty well biased" set of tee markers. These tees were not set up in any normal way. They were clearly mixing blue and white tees and would not match any course/rating available in the system. And they would be far out of balance WRT 'normal tee marker movement'.

From a rules perspective at least you were following a 'known set of rules'. But these 'rules' (competition tees) do not match the system into which you input your scores.

I would have a difficult time considering this to be a reasonable choice. To me this choice is as bad as just going up to 2 clublengths behind the two tee markers (that are basically on top of each other) and teeing off from 3 inches of rough on a 20 degree side slope. That would certainly "match the rules".

dave

[crtssxc]

As posted above, I do not think it is a huge deal for handicap purposes as long as you use the official (or in the absence of an official marker, the most common tee area) yardage distance you are good. However, most courses I play rarely have all of the tees play to their full distance, especially the par 3's which can play from 140 to 220 depending on the day, which could lead to more confusion and disparity in score, and surely a 'bias'.

I say you didnt cheat the rules, and you could (if you felt it necessary) speak with the club pro about it. However, I wouldnt let it bother me. You were playing the same rules as your opponent, and so everything was fair for the match. If you dont want to count it, then I dont see a problem with that either, but I would count it.

[mark m]

For Handicap purposes: Being a casual round, you did the right thing playing from the yardage plates that went with your tee choice that day. The score should be posted. If it was a tournament - find an official before teeing off.

Good golf course superintendents are very familiar with what it takes to properly set up a course for play. Included in that is a plan for varying hole locations and tee markers while maintaining as consistent as possible scoring conditions. Many use a front, middle, back rotation for both tees and hole locations. This practice is particularily important for handicap purposes as an OVERALL course yardage difference of just 22 yards changes the course rating .1 (a difference of 80 yards = .4 rating and 1 slope change). See section 5 of the USGA Handicap Manual.

The chart in Section 5 can come in handy if you play a course where the tees are set up at an overall distance that doesn't match a ratings choice - especially if it's a large difference. Figure out the yardage difference and then add or subtract to determine the correct rating and slope for handicap purposes. Sometimes courses will post a different rating next to the posting computer - especially if there are temporary tees or greens or any other significant reason that the course is not playing to the listed ratings found on the scorecard.

Hope this helps.

MM

[InTheHole]

That's exactly what I meant when I brought up handicap. If you are teeing off from yardarge markers, the pins aren't set to those markers, they are probably set up for the tournament markers. So which (per your description) markers are you using, white or blue? Is it 180 yards from the white tees or 165 yards from the blue? If they do that for 18 holes, your yardage will be significantly off. So what's the rating/slope? Posting that score from the white tees in GHIN isn't necessarily correct, nor blue.

If you can't post what you are sure are valid numbers, I don't think you should post any for that round. Just my opinion- maybe I'm wrong per the handicap rules.

[mark m]

Absolute equity is not achievable.

What if the course was set up perfect but the wind was gusty and hit 50mph at times?

Obviously, the course would play much more difficult that day than another day when it was 75 degrees and calm. Either day - you post the score from your tee choice (and related ratings).

How to measure a course as in the manual. Holes are measured to the center of the greens. They show you how to determine that as well. Good course superintendents vary hole locations - often front, middle, and back. Some have a numbering system or whatever. These plans tend to average out the distance over the course of 18 holes. Tee placements tend to have more of an impact on the length the hole and overall course plays. Those should be varied as well so that the total course distance is very close to the listed distance/rating. It makes things easier if the permenant yardage plates are placed by the architect (or superintendent) in the tee box areas so that it is possible to move the tee markers both forward and backwards from day to day.

Just my opinion.

[InTheHole]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, really... but none of that applies to the OP... he didn't mention anything about weather and in fact, the rules of golf and handicapping do not take weather into account (a course rating does not change because of strong winds).

As far as measuring the course- yes, that's fine- when you know all that information. The OP didn't know any of that stuff because he has no idea where the pins were placed in relation to the tees. No idea where the tees were placed in relation to their correct location, and, in fact, really which tees he was even playing from.

Again, I'm not being argumentative- my point is that he had a very big variable in his round. I'm not suggesting he should have gone and found the elusive "committee" and discussed it with them, or asked for money back, or even not played. I'm just suggesting that since he really didn't know which tees, and therefore which rating/slope applied, he can't enter a score for a particular rating/slope for that course as far as a handicap is concerned.

It would be an interesting question posed to the USGA, I know I would be interested in the answer. I play a lot of courses that have public tee times before/after tournaments. But like I said, when they place "tournament" tees, they just usually replace the white tees and everything plays the same. Not sure why a tournament would decide to go between two tees as it really doesn't accomplish a lot.

When it is windy and raining, the course rating and slope does not change. Is the round more difficult? Absolutely. But the USGA has seen fit to leave the ratings the same in that case. Round counts for handicap.

But if you don't know the true ratings for a round, what numbers do you plug into the equation to determine your index?

As far as a friendly round of golf, absolutely play, enjoy your round, and take your friend's money if you bet (you are, after all, both playing from the same tees).
And no, I don't really think you should ask for money back from the club.

I think we took this way over the top, so I won't say anything more on this...

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='InTheHole' post='2032080' date='Oct 28 2009, 08:05 PM']That's exactly what I meant when I brought up handicap. If you are teeing off from yardarge markers, the pins aren't set to those markers, they are probably set up for the tournament markers. So which (per your description) markers are you using, white or blue? Is it 180 yards from the white tees or 165 yards from the blue? If they do that for 18 holes, your yardage will be significantly off. So what's the rating/slope? Posting that score from the white tees in GHIN isn't necessarily correct, nor blue.

If you can't post what you are sure are valid numbers, I don't think you should post any for that round. Just my opinion- maybe I'm wrong per the handicap rules.[/quote]

At least at our club tee markers and hole positions are not coordinated. They use some kind of computer program that makes pin position assignments to even out play (and therefore) wear on the greens.

Tee positions tend to be more about evening out wear on the tees and these (from all that I have observed) are independent decisions. Of course some tees have tons of room front-to-back and some have very little. But for the most part tee movement is not enough to 'cancel out' pin movement, even if they wanted to (greens are generally longer than the tees).

The only consistencies beyond this that I have ever noticed are

1) They are pretty consistent in alternating Front-Middle-Rear pins. If hole #1 is a front pin you can be almost positive that hole #4 will also be front, etc.

2) There is one hole (a long and difficult par 3) where they do coordinate the tee position with the pin position. I have no idea why that single hole and none of the 107 other holes, but it is the only par 3 that always plays the same club for me (barring excessive wind).

I just don't believe (or have certainly never heard of) "the right tees for these particular pin positions". The USGA Handicap Manual has 2 1/2 pages of discussion about placing tee markers and pins and it mentions nothing about coordinating pin and tee position on a given hole.

dave

[OpusX20]

[quote name='InTheHole' post='2032279' date='Oct 28 2009, 08:55 PM']I'm not trying to be argumentative, really... but none of that applies to the OP... he didn't mention anything about weather and in fact, the rules of golf and handicapping do not take weather into account (a course rating does not change because of strong winds).

As far as measuring the course- yes, that's fine- when you know all that information. The OP didn't know any of that stuff because he has no idea where the pins were placed in relation to the tees. No idea where the tees were placed in relation to their correct location, and, in fact, really which tees he was even playing from.

Again, I'm not being argumentative- my point is that he had a very big variable in his round. I'm not suggesting he should have gone and found the elusive "committee" and discussed it with them, or asked for money back, or even not played. I'm just suggesting that since he really didn't know which tees, and therefore which rating/slope applied, he can't enter a score for a particular rating/slope for that course as far as a handicap is concerned.

It would be an interesting question posed to the USGA, I know I would be interested in the answer. I play a lot of courses that have public tee times before/after tournaments. But like I said, when they place "tournament" tees, they just usually replace the white tees and everything plays the same. Not sure why a tournament would decide to go between two tees as it really doesn't accomplish a lot.

When it is windy and raining, the course rating and slope does not change. Is the round more difficult? Absolutely. But the USGA has seen fit to leave the ratings the same in that case. Round counts for handicap.

But if you don't know the true ratings for a round, what numbers do you plug into the equation to determine your index?

As far as a friendly round of golf, absolutely play, enjoy your round, and take your friend's money if you bet (you are, after all, both playing from the same tees).
And no, I don't really think you should ask for money back from the club.

I think we took this way over the top, so I won't say anything more on this...[/quote]

InTheHole--

I don't think you're being argumentative. You make some very good points, and I understand your logic. Although I do disagree with your conclusion of not posting the score. Let me explain why. Let's say I just completed the 13th hole and on my way to the 14th tee I get a cell call that my wife is in labor. So, I decide not to finish my round and head in. According to the USGA I should still post that score. Now let's say after the baby is born I head out to play again (probably a year later). I just finished the 13th hole and when I get to the 14th tee, there are no tee markers. I decide to play from the appropriate distance plate for the tees I have been playing. I then have the same situation on the rest of the holes. I think your position would be that I should not post this score.

In my mind, it doesn't make sense that the USGA would ask me to post a score where I played 13 holes and "estimated" at what my score would have been for the final 5 holes. And then not post a score where I played 13 holes and then played the last 5 from the distance plate because the tees were gone. This example isn't conclusive, it's just my opinion. As I said in a previous post, I'm not a GHIN expert.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='InTheHole' post='2032279' date='Oct 28 2009, 09:55 PM']snip

As far as measuring the course- yes, that's fine- when you know all that information. The OP didn't know any of that stuff because he has no idea where the pins were placed in relation to the tees. No idea where the tees were placed in relation to their correct location, and, in fact, really which tees he was even playing from.

snip[/quote]

Is there a reference or documented practice anywhere that talks about some relationship between tee location and pin location on a given day? It isn't in the USGA Handicap Manual that I can find and it certainly isn't my experience on the course.

The USGA talks about balancing teeing markers and balancing pin locations. But there is nothing stated about these having any relationship with each other. FWIW, the USGA requests that tee markers be put "opposite the permanent yardage markers where the measurements were made".

I honestly believe that the tee locations were set as they would be set on any other day. And they definitely had their typical 'red-white-yellow' rotation. I noticed that later in the day the normal red/white/yellow flags had been replaced with competition flags - have no idea if the pins had been moved or not.

dave

[jjj912]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' post='2032996' date='Oct 29 2009, 10:40 AM'][quote name='InTheHole' post='2032279' date='Oct 28 2009, 09:55 PM']snip

As far as measuring the course- yes, that's fine- when you know all that information. The OP didn't know any of that stuff because he has no idea where the pins were placed in relation to the tees. No idea where the tees were placed in relation to their correct location, and, in fact, really which tees he was even playing from.

snip[/quote]

Is there a reference or documented practice anywhere that talks about some relationship between tee location and pin location on a given day? It isn't in the USGA Handicap Manual that I can find and it certainly isn't my experience on the course.

The USGA talks about balancing teeing markers and balancing pin locations. But there is nothing stated about these having any relationship with each other. FWIW, the USGA requests that tee markers be put "opposite the permanent yardage markers where the measurements were made".

I honestly believe that the tee locations were set as they would be set on any other day. And they definitely had their typical 'red-white-yellow' rotation. I noticed that later in the day the normal red/white/yellow flags had been replaced with competition flags - have no idea if the pins had been moved or not.

dave
[/quote]

I think the marker and pin placements are supposed to be set so that the course plays to the same difficulty each day. So you wouldn't set all the tee markers at the back edge of the tee box one day and then set them all to the front the next day. The course would play much harder on the first day than the second when the goal is to have the course play about the same difficulty each day. I think a similar idea is applied to individual holes. If a hole is wet, which makes it play longer, and has a crosswind, which makes it harder to control the ball flight, you move the markers to the front of the tee box to shorten the length and set the pin in the center of the green to provide a larger margin of error. Conversely, a dried out hole on a calm day might need to have the markers set towards the back of the tee box and have the pin set closer to the edge of the green.

However, if you're in charge of a course, mangaging the course difficulty is probably a secondary consideration to the need to rotate markers and pins so that the grass doesn't get trampled to death.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='jjj912' post='2033235' date='Oct 29 2009, 12:33 PM']I think the marker and pin placements are supposed to be set so that the course plays to the same difficulty each day. So you wouldn't set all the tee markers at the back edge of the tee box one day and then set them all to the front the next day. The course would play much harder on the first day than the second when the goal is to have the course play about the same difficulty each day. I think a similar idea is applied to individual holes. If a hole is wet, which makes it play longer, and has a crosswind, which makes it harder to control the ball flight, you move the markers to the front of the tee box to shorten the length and set the pin in the center of the green to provide a larger margin of error. Conversely, a dried out hole on a calm day might need to have the markers set towards the back of the tee box and have the pin set closer to the edge of the green.

However, if you're in charge of a course, mangaging the course difficulty is probably a secondary consideration to the need to rotate markers and pins so that the grass doesn't get trampled to death.[/quote]


A number of folks in this thread had expressed the opinion that (from a pin/tee placement perspective) a course every day (and even every hole) should have a 'balance' (front pins with rear tees, etc). I had never heard of this, never encountered it, and couldn't find a reference to it.

So I sent a quick note to our Carolina's Golf Association USGA guru asking if there was any expectation that, on a given hole, pin placement and tee marker placement will be coordinated in some manner.

In a nutshell the answer is 'no'. Quoted from the (private) email ...

[size=3][color="#000000"][i]We rate from the average tee location to the average or middle of each green. So the assumption is – [b][size=4]not on a daily basis but over time[/size][/b] – that all things will average out to…average.
[/i]
dave[/color][/size]

[Newby]

There may be some confusion here. The USGA say in their publication 'How to Conduct a Competition. There is no suggestion that the tee anf pin position should be balanced for individual holes.

[i]There should be a balanced selection of hole locations for the entire course with respect to left, right, central, front and back positions. For example, avoid too many left locations with resulting premium on drawn or hooked shots and all par-3 holes with front right locations.[/i]

and

[i]In competitions extending over several days, the USGA normally recommends that each such area be no more than
ten yards in length. The tee markers should be installed within this area each day and balanced so that the course will play about the same length in each round. The practice of setting up a course to play progressively longer during each round of a competition is not recommended.[/i]

[bermuda]

When I play and tee markers haven't been replaced from mowing, I just tee up on the tee box even with where the tee markers are lying or where the discolored grass areas are from where the tee markers last lay. If that's not practical, just tee up somewhere on the box that is practical. When I worked on golf courses and mowed tees, I always replaced the tee markers before I left the teebox, but I played golf so I knew how tee markers should be placed. That's not the case for many course workers now, so I can see why they leave markers behind for someone more knowledgeable to replace.

Where tournament tee markers alternate between the blue and white teeing area (I think that's what the OP said), I would just consider where I normally tee up or what looks like the appropriate teebox if I've never played the course and play from there. Not all courses I play have yardage markers on tee boxes, and some tees that do have yardage markers, they are all the way at the back and slightly beyond, so teeing up near them wouldn't be practical.

As far as setting up the course, when I mowed tees I never got any instruction on where to put the markers other than to put them on a level area of good turf. If I put the blues near the back on one hole, I put all of them near the back on that hole. But I didn't put them in the back on all 18 holes. Where the cup was cut didn't make any difference. I don't think it makes any difference for daily play if the tee markers are 5 yards one way or the other.

As far as cutting cups, yes, we tried to balance front, middle and back. However, on weekends and holidays when we expected heavy play, we placed the cups where they would not cause slow play -- easy positions. So, no cups tucked behind bunkers or on the top tier of a multi-tier green. Middle-front, middle and rear, flat as we could find so play would move along. It was possible some holes would wind up with tee markers at the front of the box and pins in the front middle of the green. It wasn't a concern.

I haven't worked on a course since the early '90s, so technology might play a role now in getting tee and cup setup more consistent but I doubt there's much difference.

But if on one or two days out of the year you tee up 5 yards this way or that way, or on one hole you have tees up and the cup in the front of the green, I don't see how it's going to make any difference in your handicap.

[InTheHole]

Hmmm- guess I was generally wrong (I can admit it!)...

I was told by a greenskeeper that the course he works at keeps things consistent...

If a hole measures 170 from the white and 150 from the blue to the center of the green, they maintain that distance when they cut the hole- so if they move the hole closer by 10 yards on the green, they move the tees back 10 yards to maintain the relative distances. Of course that assumes you have a tee box big enough to do that with, which isn't always the case now that I think about it. It made perfect sense to me, so I just thought everyone did that.

You guys are all saying no one does that. OK. That's my new reality.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='InTheHole' post='2035166' date='Oct 30 2009, 10:53 AM']Hmmm- guess I was generally wrong (I can admit it!)...

I was told by a greenskeeper that the course he works at keeps things consistent...

If a hole measures 170 from the white and 150 from the blue to the center of the green, they maintain that distance when they cut the hole- so if they move the hole closer by 10 yards on the green, they move the tees back 10 yards to maintain the relative distances. Of course that assumes you have a tee box big enough to do that with, which isn't always the case now that I think about it. It made perfect sense to me, so I just thought everyone did that.

You guys are all saying no one does that. OK. That's my new reality.[/quote]

My course does that as well. First course where I have worked that does it though...

Kevin

[bermuda]

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='2035182' date='Oct 30 2009, 12:02 PM'][quote name='InTheHole' post='2035166' date='Oct 30 2009, 10:53 AM']Hmmm- guess I was generally wrong (I can admit it!)...

I was told by a greenskeeper that the course he works at keeps things consistent...

If a hole measures 170 from the white and 150 from the blue to the center of the green, they maintain that distance when they cut the hole- so if they move the hole closer by 10 yards on the green, they move the tees back 10 yards to maintain the relative distances. Of course that assumes you have a tee box big enough to do that with, which isn't always the case now that I think about it. It made perfect sense to me, so I just thought everyone did that.

You guys are all saying no one does that. OK. That's my new reality.[/quote]

My course does that as well. First course where I have worked that does it though...

Kevin
[/quote]

I don't doubt that's the trend considering many people who work on courses now -- and I'm talking about in the South -- aren't as familiar with the game as was the case years ago when high school and college-age golfers worked on courses and had an inkling of how they should be set up. At my local muni when I am out there in the morning, I see an asst. superintendent placing tee markers and cutting cups. So that would allow consistency and might be the way things are done more now.

I miss working on courses and when I play I always think about how the bunkers aren't edged and raked correctly or the fairways should be mowed differently. But 15 years into my current job, I have the "golden handcuffs."