Hogan and ball position

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='supercharger' date='23 January 2010 - 01:57 AM' timestamp='1264211825' post='2198078']
By too extreme I mean too diaganol and too much width difference. I have never seen hogan vary his stance as much in video as it shows in five lessons. Most all of hogans swings his feet were square to closed maybe 1/3 to 1/2 the length of his shoe.
[/quote]

Good points. I believe the diagramme was a slight exaggeration, so the concept is clearer. I use this method (exaggeration) in visualizations of my concepts as well.

Cheers

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' date='23 January 2010 - 08:29 AM' timestamp='1264253358' post='2198739']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' date='23 January 2010 - 01:50 AM' timestamp='1264211415' post='2198058']
i dont think hogan invented the stance diagram recommendations, its pretty old.
[/quote]

Yep, it is. But Hogan was the first to publish it

[i][color="#FF0000"]i doubt he was[/color][/i]

and brought valid arguments why it should be like that,

[i][color="#FF0000"]his published argument was to pre set the clearing of the left hip on shorter clubs as the shorter arc has less time to clear, ...it was about rhythm/tempo/sequencing imo ...the stance and ball position adjustments necessary so you can have one swing for all clubs using the fundamentals[/color][/i]

I guess.
I agree that many pros before Hogan must have been using the D-Plane subconsciousnessly though.

Cheers
[/quote]

there could be a bit of [i]hindsight bias[/i] here, interpreting the past with present knowledge, we could just as easily assume any short straight hitter from the past was using dplane consciously

the only reference i know of to conscious dplane knowledge is the haney student reference, paraphrasing here:-

- how do you draw the ball - closed/open/open+closing ?
- tell haney he's smart

pretty vague, i read this as he was [b]possibly[/b] using different laws, maybe dplane2.0 ...lol

dplane also makes some assumptions, maybe insignificant ones, but i think if he was working exclusively off dplane he wouldn't think a straight ball by anyone was an accident

[chip75]

Hey guys is the stance and ball position measured by the ball position's relationship to the heels? So if that is correct (I don't mind been wrong) is this diagram a viable indication of Hogan's ball position from opposite the left big toe for the driver and the middle of the stance for the irons. Or is the diagram an indication of the closed to open stance of Hogan.

[attachment=537267:Hogan ball position 01.jpg]

This always confused me when I was playing is your ball position measured from your target line or your open, closed or square stance?

[martinez]

Chip75...Nail...Head....flushed it.

I don't believe it's an exaggeration at all that diagram. It not only accounts for ball-flight laws, it accounts for the differing look of Hogan's swings through the bag. He didn't just move his right foot.....it moved the vector of his entire right axis in space. Same swing looks different.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='chip75' date='09 February 2010 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1265723989' post='2238136']
Hey guys is the stance and ball position measured by the ball position's relationship to the heels? So if that is correct (I don't mind been wrong) is this diagram a viable indication of Hogan's ball position from opposite the left big toe for the driver and the middle of the stance for the irons. Or is the diagram an indication of the closed to open stance of Hogan.

[attachment=537267:Hogan ball position 01.jpg]

This always confused me when I was playing is your ball position measured from your target line or your open, closed or square stance?
[/quote]

The trick is that the lead foot was flared out while the rear one square to the target line. It implies that if you link both heels, the feet are more closed that if you link toes.
Moreover, I never have seen Hogan open his toe line in relation to the target line for full shots, even with short irons or wedges. His feet pressure points line and ight have appeared slightly open though.

Cheers

[chip75]

Hogan at address with a short-iron.

[attachment=537877:Hogan's wedge.jpg]

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' date='10 February 2010 - 08:09 AM' timestamp='1265807369' post='2240766']
[quote name='chip75' date='09 February 2010 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1265723989' post='2238136']
Hey guys is the stance and ball position measured by the ball position's relationship to the heels? So if that is correct (I don't mind been wrong) is this diagram a viable indication of Hogan's ball position from opposite the left big toe for the driver and the middle of the stance for the irons. Or is the diagram an indication of the closed to open stance of Hogan.

[attachment=537267:Hogan ball position 01.jpg]

This always confused me when I was playing is your ball position measured from your target line or your open, closed or square stance?
[/quote]

The trick is that the lead foot was flared out while the rear one square to the target line. It implies that if you link both heels, the feet are more closed that if you link toes.
Moreover, I never have seen Hogan open his toe line in relation to the target line for full shots, even with short irons or wedges. His feet pressure points line and even his heel line might have appeared slightly open though for the reasons stated above.

Cheers
[/quote]


Dariusz how can the right foot be square to the target in longer clubs or whenever when his toe line is right of the target / closed stance unless you think he turned his right foot inwards like a pigeon-toe...... Clem Darracot/ pursuit of perfection was right there and said for longer clubs he moved his right foot back and turned it away from the target

[chip75]

I'm not sure Hogan's right foot was square to the target, I'm sure he opens his foot up during his waggle in some of the videos I've seen but a square foot is something he advocated saying a splayed out foot can lead to swing problems.

[attachment=537898:Hogan driver stance.jpg]

[martinez]

[quote name='eightiron' date='10 February 2010 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1265809132' post='2240810']
[quote name='Dariusz J.' date='10 February 2010 - 08:09 AM' timestamp='1265807369' post='2240766']
[quote name='chip75' date='09 February 2010 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1265723989' post='2238136']
Hey guys is the stance and ball position measured by the ball position's relationship to the heels? So if that is correct (I don't mind been wrong) is this diagram a viable indication of Hogan's ball position from opposite the left big toe for the driver and the middle of the stance for the irons. Or is the diagram an indication of the closed to open stance of Hogan.

[attachment=537267:Hogan ball position 01.jpg]

This always confused me when I was playing is your ball position measured from your target line or your open, closed or square stance?
[/quote]

The trick is that the lead foot was flared out while the rear one square to the target line. It implies that if you link both heels, the feet are more closed that if you link toes.
Moreover, I never have seen Hogan open his toe line in relation to the target line for full shots, even with short irons or wedges. His feet pressure points line and even his heel line might have appeared slightly open though for the reasons stated above.

Cheers
[/quote]


Dariusz how can the right foot be square to the target in longer clubs or whenever when his toe line is right of the target / closed stance unless you think he turned his right foot inwards like a pigeon-toe...... Clem Darracot/ pursuit of perfection was right there and said for longer clubs he moved his right foot back and turned it away from the target


[/quote]
Right foot always was open to the right femur. Seems to me the shorter the iron the more open were the set of his hips and legs, which allowed the right foot to be almost square and still maintain that relationship.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' date='10 February 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1265809132' post='2240810']Dariusz how can the right foot be square to the target in longer clubs or whenever when his toe line is right of the target / closed stance unless you think he turned his right foot inwards like a pigeon-toe...... Clem Darracot/ pursuit of perfection was right there and said for longer clubs he moved his right foot back and turned it away from the target
[/quote]

You're right, as usually, Eight. With the closed stance in case of longer clubs we should rather say square to the toe line which means slightly open to the target line. Thanks for pointing it out here. I guess the notion "square to the target line" when describing Hogan's rear foot position is being used per default; the very Mr.Hogan presented it this way in his book.
The most important rule of thumb is that the rear foot was always, independently on a club length, in a more square-to-the-target position than the flared lead one.

Cheers

[fadevs9]

hi guys, i just ordered this book. i am hogan nut myself and have just began studying him. I will tell you this; i have been using this stance now for about a month varying it between my short irons and driver like the diagrams. I have hit some of thee purest wedges I have ever hit in my life. And I have also hit some the thee purest drives ever as well. All with a slight fade. I cant explain it. I do very much like looking at the ball always in the same place off the left heal. I use to have a square stance and varied the ball position. it wasnt consistent. Sure am looking forward to the summer!!

[Petter Player]

I think the best frase from Hogan on the stance was about the front foot flare.

"By having a symmetrical foot setup people does not know which way they're going." Since I read this I started using the front flare and found out that the more square back foot prevents you from turning your hips too much on the back swing.

While practicing last spring I also found out that if you widen your stance too much for driver, you'll end up losing the possibility to turn your hips to the target in your down swing.

In general the narrower yet sound stance you can still hold your balance is the right way to go.

Check out Sergio Garcias driver shot in the Y-tube or where ever you'll find a Swing Vision clip of his. He's truly turning his hips and he's having one of the most narrowest stances with driver I've ever seen. My idol of today's tour players by the way. If only he'd get that junior years intuitive putting touch back he'd be making history.

[nova6868]

[quote name='chip75' timestamp='1265723989' post='2238136']
Hey guys is the stance and ball position measured by the ball position's relationship to the heels? So if that is correct (I don't mind been wrong) is this diagram a viable indication of Hogan's ball position from opposite the left big toe for the driver and the middle of the stance for the irons. Or is the diagram an indication of the closed to open stance of Hogan.

[attachment=537267:Hogan ball position 01.jpg]

This always confused me when I was playing is your ball position measured from your target line or your open, closed or square stance?
[/quote]

Just wanted to bump this old picture, I think it's really great. Thanks for making it.

[tembolo1284]

Love this thread!

[marte]

I don't understand this picture. Do the red boxes and lines indicate where his weight is positioned at address?....where the weight shifts to in the back swing??? Thanks.

EDIT...sorry, you have to click on the link at bottom of the quoted post to see picture.

 

 

 

What do you mean - too extreme ? too diagonal ? or too less diagonal ?

 

I'll give you a hint - a pretty extreme thing - will come tomorrow to discuss it...

 

 

 

Cheers all

[brianmontgomery2000]

I don't understand this picture. Do the red boxes and lines indicate where his weight is positioned at address?....where the weight shifts to in the back swing??? Thanks. EDIT...sorry, you have to click on the link at bottom of the quoted post to see picture.

What do you mean - too extreme ? too diagonal ? or too less diagonal ? I'll give you a hint - a pretty extreme thing - will come tomorrow to discuss it... Cheers all

 

I think that is just to show alignment, although ball of back foot to heel of front foot is unusual...